The 2009 PISA test results were released today. The U.S. student scores were a great disappointment � American students finished about two dozen notches down from the pace setting Chinese.
According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), which administers the PISA (Programme for International Student Assessment) tests in about 65 countries worldwide every three years, the next strongest performances after China were from South Korea, Finland, Singapore, CANADA, New Zealand and Japan.
"We have to see this as a wake-up call," Secretary of Education Arne Duncan told The New York Times.�I know skeptics will want to argue with the results, but we consider them to be accurate and reliable, and we have to see them as a challenge to get better. The United States came in 23rd or 24th in most subjects. We can quibble, or we can face the brutal truth that we�re being out-educated.�
It appears that Canada's higher tax rates might be paying dividends...
Laffin'....it's why the world's brightest clamor to matriculate to US schools,I guess. You're a master of obscurity and bizarre finds and thought processes,Canuck!
Yep for sure - America's public schools are the envy of the free world!
have to fund schools for certain, but I'd be interested to see a link that correlates the test scores with money spent per student.
my personal opinion IS it's not so much that we don't fund our schools sufficiently as we put an emphasis on feel good about yourself no matter what you fail to accomplish, don't strike back at bullies tell somebody instead, and oh we'll try and cover those 3 R things the last 15 minutes of class.
have no way of knowing but it would surprise me none that Chinese schools don't tolerate bad behavior, discipline is in ready supply.
and the gov't doesn't reward bad behavior, i.e. having more kids than you can care for with different men.
just my thoughts on the matter
I do know that in our school district, we spend almost as much money on SPED as we do on the whole district. Couldn't hardly believe we spend that much money on so few kids, but it's a fact.
Have to run up the Bu!!$hit Flag on that one. Washington DC is a great case study. They spend more than $25,000 per student and they have the worst schools in the nation.
Quality of instruction and curricula, combined with student and parental participation are the determining factor, not total tax dollars spent.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/04/AR2008040402921.html
I'll bet you a dollar the US spends substantially more than Canada does per pupil. And it has been demonstrated again and again that spending money has basically zero to do with the product. From the NYT:
New York State spent $14,119 per student � more than any other state in the nation � in the 2005 fiscal year, according to a national analysis of public school spending that the Census Bureau released today.
The analysis, Public Education Finances: 2005, placed New Jersey at No. 2 on the list, at $13,800, followed by the District of Columbia (which was treated as a state) at $12,979, Vermont at $11,835 and Connecticut at $11,572. Seven of the top 10 with the highest per-pupil expenditures were in the Northeast.
Across the nation, public school districts spent an average of $8,701 per student on elementary and secondary education in the 2005 fiscal year, up by 5 percent from $8,287 the previous year.
DC has the worst schools in America, and is third in per pupil spending. Most NY schools are awful in urban areas, despite being number one.
Sadly, the best predictor of school success is a lack of minority students. Heavily black districts underperform no matter how many resources are thrown at them.
Actually,in part I agree with you.
In Canada, the schools with the lowest scores tend to be the schools with the highest native populations.
So - the real question - is how do we help those kids succeed - because if they succeed - everyone in society will benefit.
But how can a society manage such a thing - without using tax-payer money?
yep, I was right. these are 2001 number so the gap may not be as extreme now, but Canada spends less that the US on average, and way less than the big spending states:
In 2000-2001, total per-student spending at the elementary and secondary levels ($7 141) was higher than in the
Atlantic Provinces ($6 570), but lower than in Ontario ($7 742) and Western Canada ($7 614).
so, Brian, what do you think they're doing with all those tax dollars?
Money does not equal quality.
My kids catholic school gets HALF as much income per student and does better.
Parents and teachers invested in education matter.
Mo' money is for whores.
BMT
Private schools (due to the cost) always have motivated parents who are sending their kids there.
It is that simple.
But they don't help most of the people who can't afford to send their kids there - do they?
A nation's public school system is among it's most important tools for the betterment of society.
Here's a novel, and past used concept. Put those with special needs in special schools. Whether those special needs are mental defects that will never allow the student to perform at average level, or student whose sole goal is to disrupt the school.
Put the 80% that is going to learn together, rather then including that 20% that will drag them down to their level. Way too much $ and effort is spent on those that will never perform, and they drag everyone down with them. I'd venture to say that our school district spends upwards of 50% of their budget on the special needs students.
"If you don't spend enough tax-payer money on schools - this follows...." BCBrian
Total BS...but I think you see that now. I'm glad that you've found an area where your country is better in something than the USA. Keep paying those high taxes.
Until Ob@m@ came to town, the DC schools and others had voucher programs that allowed students to get vouchers so that they could attend private schools if they chose to. Those parents were motivated to better their kids and .gov was giving them a way to do so-until the teachers unions convinced Ob@m@ and the Dems to end the programs.
A public school system that that year after year does nothing to educate and everything to indoctrinate is no tool for the betterment of society. It only becomes so if it is offering a curricula that allows it to do so, something that the majority of public schools in the USA have long failed to do.
A nation's public school system is among it's most important tools for the betterment of society.
No it isn't. The govenrment mucks up everything it does, esp. the schools.
Flat tax that EVERYONE pays based purely on income, no deductions.
Itemized bill received monthly, no withholding, make folks write the check.
No property taxes rolled into mortegages either, again, make folks write the check.
If folks realized that "Public" education isn't free and they pay tuition not just while their kids are in school but every month from the day they own a home or rent an apartment until the day they don't, maybe they'd be as involved as the private school parents.
Itemized bills are telling.
It has nothing to do with the amount of money, and has everything to do with demographics and the reality of what the legal system has imposed over the past 50 years. School systems are charged with educating each and every student. Therefore, they are forced to water down the curriculum to the lowest common denominator. They must, least they labeled racially insensitive or worse. Remember when the SAT was declared racially biased? (It is beyond me how mathematics can be racially biased.)So it was dumbed down to the point that that mean scores were inflated, and an essay was necessary.
No, it's not about money, but it is about expectations and politics.
Wake up call is right.. Get rid of tenure and hire/fire according to performance and watch the kids bloom..
Actually,in part I agree with you.
In Canada, the schools with the lowest scores tend to be the schools with the highest native populations.
So - the real question - is how do we help those kids succeed - because if they succeed - everyone in society will benefit.
But how can a society manage such a thing - without using tax-payer money?
In the US, the first step would be to abolish the teacher's unions.
I live and work as an educator in a district that has the highest tax rates in the state. The additional money we spend per pupil cannot keep up with the societal issues faced. Our district has attempted the charter school route, but that was a failure beyond imagination and an even greater rip-off to the taxpayers than one could claim about the public schools. In an area where unemployment is 20% and out-of-wedlock births exceed 75%, the battle is all uphill. It is easier to have babies, encourage their identification as "Exceptional", and draw $600+ per month in disability per child. Education holds no promise for a great number of Americans and we are now facing a second generation of those who see no value in a diploma. Teachers, principals, and superintendents cannot fix that. Who is to blame? Sure the teachers (and their unions especially) have to accept some blame, but not as much as the gov't officials who created the Welfare State, and the "social" leaders who have for decades preached "victimization" and "multi-culturalism" at the expense of American values. . .
School systems waste their money� why do they need professional grade �Sports Arenas� ?
They should stick to spending their money on education and paying teachers for results� Like private schools.
I sent my sons to private schools� and STILL had to pay school taxs� but I�m not bitter
Wait I AM bitter
It's not that we don't spend enough on education, it's that we don't spend enough on teaching students. Cut the top heavy admins, cut the weak teachers, reward the good.
It's not that we don't spend enough on education, it's that we don't spend enough on teaching students. Cut the top heavy admins, cut the weak teachers, reward the good.
What he said
+1
The best scores come from places where a person has to really hustle to get by and maybe excel. Not the case in the USA. Rarely does a white anglo saxon protestant
win our spelling bee.
Mike 762 said:
Quality of instruction and curricula, combined with student and parental participation are the determining factor, not total tax dollars spent.
Throw in discipline by the administrators and parents and remove the political correctness he would be absolutely correct. kwg
Private schools (due to the cost) always have motivated parents who are sending their kids there.
It is that simple.
But they don't help most of the people who can't afford to send their kids there - do they?
A nation's public school system is among it's most important tools for the betterment of society.
Motivated Parents in this state have pulled their children and are homeschooling them. Why?
Because Public Education has alienated those it needs most--dedicated parents.
Religious Student Groups and Boy Scouts have been banned, along with supportive parents and mentors who volunteered.
Districts have abandoned "shop" classes declaring them "less important" (but not to the Mechanic who would volunteer to help in his son's class.
The list goes on, but dedicated parents who disagree with the school's "intelligentsia" have been sent away. Their tax dollars went with them.
BMT
The gov't cannot define "good" -- much less reward it. Rewarding "results" over-simplifies the problem. End entitlement and welfare. You want results -- no drivers license, no unemployment payments, no welfare, no benefits unless you have a diploma or are performing as expected in school. No SSI disability payments for Exceptional Children unless they are unable to attend school. . .
Money isn't that answer. We spend enough money on education in this country to have every kid driven to school in a chauffeured driven limousine and feed them steak and caviar three times a day.
The main problem is liberalism and liberal parents who think all they have to do is provide sperm and egg and that's it. There are only so many hours in a day to teach a kid something and when 2/3rds of the day is spent teaching liberal religion there isn't much time to teach the three R's.
The second problem is mainstreaming problem and stupid kids with the regular kids. When you do that the curriculum has to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, thereby, leaving the bright kids behind. Putting a rotten apple into a barrel of sweet apples is not going to make the rotten apple taste better. All it will do is make the sweet apples taste rotten.
And last but not least, we need to put teachers back into the class room and get rid of educators. Alas, that can't happen until we get rid of the religion of liberalism.
the New Orleans schools, which were in a race with DC to see who could be the worst, despite per pupil spending higher than that of our Canuck brethren, were famously all shut down by the storm.
what has emerged from the wreckage is mostly charter schools, spending less per pupil, and educating more. the gigiantic sclerotic bureaucracy that used to steal or waste millions of dollars is gone....and I'm not exaggerating, we've got board members and admin staff doing federal time for it.
the charter schools run themselves, and answer only to the state accreditation people. it ain't money that solves education problems, or else the DC public schools would be cranking out Rhodes scholars by the thousands.
Perhaps we are lucky in B.C. - and in Canada.
Here public schools are accountable to locally elected school boards - which are in turn accountable to the Provincial legislatures.
Education is not a federal jurisdiction - in Canada.
Here parents are in "the loop" - in a real and significant way.
This is, of course, how it should be.
Money does not equal quality. My kids catholic school gets HALF as much income per student and does better. Parents and teachers invested in education matter.Mo' money is for whores.
BMT
What he said.
In Anchorage we spend >$15,000 per kid and the local Christian school spends about $5000 and blow away the public schools. I think someone else hit on lack of parent involvement too.
Wook
Perhaps we are lucky in B.C. - and in Canada.
Here public schools are accountable to locally elected school boards - which are in turn accountable to the Provincial legislatures.
Education is not a federal jurisdiction - in Canada.
Here parents are in "the loop" - in a real and significant way.
This is, of course, how it should be.
No teachers unions in Canada?
Actually,in part I agree with you.
In Canada, the schools with the lowest scores tend to be the schools with the highest native populations.
So - the real question - is how do we help those kids succeed - because if they succeed - everyone in society will benefit.
But how can a society manage such a thing - without using tax-payer money?
Of course taxpayer money will be needed but not for social engineering and birth control to name just 2.
Stop all the touchy feely "everybody is a winner" crap and stress only academics and teaching them HOW to learn. Make em Schools, not social gatherings, DO NOT tolerate bad or disruptive behavior, stress basic skills in the three "R's", bring back industrial arts & home economics (not every kid is gonna be a white collar worker). Move pupils up the ladder based on their achievements, yep, some will be left in the dust but that is how life works.
No child left behind is a BS "feel good" piece of crap. Make them earn it, that is how life works.
Actually,in part I agree with you.
In Canada, the schools with the lowest scores tend to be the schools with the highest native populations.
So - the real question - is how do we help those kids succeed - because if they succeed - everyone in society will benefit.
But how can a society manage such a thing - without using tax-payer money?
Of course taxpayer money will be needed but not for social engineering and birth control to name just 2.
Stop all the touchy feely "everybody is a winner" crap and stress only academics and teaching them HOW to learn. Make em Schools, not social gatherings, DO NOT tolerate bad or disruptive behavior, stress basic skills in the three "R's", bring back industrial arts & home economics (not every kid is gonna be a white collar worker). Move pupils up the ladder based on their achievements, yep, some will be left in the dust but that is how life works.
No child left behind is a BS "feel good" piece of crap. Make them earn it, that is how life works.
Here in Helena more and more parents are pulling their kids from the public schools and putting them Christian private schools or homeschooling them. At the rate we are going in a decade the only kids going to public schools are going to be the stupid, problem kids, and public school teacher kids. |Liberalism is killing public schools because liberals do not educate their kids they expect the schools to do it.
Yes there are teachers unions in Canada - I belong to one. It is a powerful Province-wide union.
We do a good job, we are well rewarded for it. In comparisons to the rest of Canada, and the rest of the world, we always seem to rank highly.
I'd say it's the high degree of co-operation and transparency between the school boards, the administrators, the parents and the teachers that enables this success.
Actually,in part I agree with you.
In Canada, the schools with the lowest scores tend to be the schools with the highest native populations.
So - the real question - is how do we help those kids succeed - because if they succeed - everyone in society will benefit.
But how can a society manage such a thing - without using tax-payer money?
Of course taxpayer money will be needed but not for social engineering and birth control to name just 2.
Stop all the touchy feely "everybody is a winner" crap and stress only academics and teaching them HOW to learn. Make em Schools, not social gatherings, DO NOT tolerate bad or disruptive behavior, stress basic skills in the three "R's", bring back industrial arts & home economics (not every kid is gonna be a white collar worker). Move pupils up the ladder based on their achievements, yep, some will be left in the dust but that is how life works.
No child left behind is a BS "feel good" piece of crap. Make them earn it, that is how life works.
Here in Helena more and more parents are pulling their kids from the public schools and putting them Christian private schools or homeschooling them. At the rate we are going in a decade the only kids going to public schools are going to be the stupid, problem kids, and public school teacher kids. |Liberalism is killing public schools because liberals do not educate their kids they expect the schools to do it.
Believe me - there are bad parents on every side of the political spectrum. We have as many problems with brain-dead red-neck conservative parents as we do with brain-dead liberal hippy parents.Bad parenting knows no political boundaries.
The problem isn't related to the parents politics - only their commitment to being active and involved in their own kid's lives and education.
Flat tax
4 Rs
Civics
Cut everything else out completely.
BTW - OPs income is derived from tax dollars extorted from other people, so go from there....
Money does not equal quality.
My kids catholic school gets HALF as much income per student and does better.
Parents and teachers invested in education matter.
Mo' money is for whores.
BMT
The same seems to be true everywhere. I read that in New York State catholic schools get about $5,000 per student but they don't waste a bunch of it on excess administrators. If you figure a 30 student class in the public schools at $14,119 per student, it costs $423,570 for that class. The teacher, with benefits, is somewhere in the $75,000 to $80,000 range. Most of the rest goes to administration.
Brian,
It warms my heart that you are so concerned about the quality of education in our country. Or, was it just supposed to be a dig at us?
the New Orleans public schools were accountable to an elected school board, they just happened to be crooks. and between the teachers union and the administrative bureaucracy, a huge amount of money was wasted and stolen.
the charter schools are run by the parents whose kids attend them.....they perform or the kids go to another school the parents like better, or they fire the administrator and get another one.
no union contracts. no tenure.
Flat tax
4 Rs
Civics
Cut everything else out completely.
BTW - OPs income is derived from tax dollars extorted from other people, so go from there....
Nonsense. In a democracy it is only taxation - WITHOUT REPRESENTATION - that is ever a problem.
In a democracy - if the MAJORITY of the people want the services that higher taxes can provide - it's not "extortion" - it's called DEMOCRACY.
If the majority of the people want higher taxes - for more services - it is their democratic right for governments to listen to them - and give them what they want. In a democracy - we don't always get what WE want - we get what the MAJORITY of the people want.
It's an imperfect system - but it's the best one yet devised.
Because this country was originally set up as a Republic, not a democracy!
the tax may be legitimately passed by the appropriate legislature, but the collection process is extortion, by any definition.
The IRS is the most brutal creditor out there.
It was set up as a protest against taxes - without representation.
At least how that's the way I read it.
Please tell me - how is a Republic different than a Democracy?
the tax may be legitimately passed by the appropriate legislature, but the collection process is extortion, by any definition.
The IRS is the most brutal creditor out there.
It's not extortion - if the majority of the people want it.
Is it extortion for a government to spend tax dollars on the military - if one disagrees with that?
If not by voting - and the democratic process - how should governments determine how much taxation is the correct amount - and how would they decide where to spend the tax-payers money?
If you know of a better system - I'm all ears.
After a quick read through this thread I'm not seeing what the liberals can't see either.
Parents are the weak link.
If parents aren't putting pressure - heavy pressure - on children to learn - many, if not most of their kids are either going to fail or severely underperform.
Some kids will always be losers. Some kids will be winners no matter how terrible their homes lives are. But the key to improving "American education" is to get the average up.
And if the average parents are absent, drunk or just generally incompetent, nothing we do to, or for, the teachers is going to do a damn bit of good for anybody. Average performance is going to stay in the basement.
- Tom
After a quick read through this thread I'm not seeing what the liberals can't see either.
Parents are the weak link.
If parents aren't putting pressure - heavy pressure - on children to learn - many, if not most of their kids are either going to fail or severely underperform.
Some kids will always be losers. Some kids will be winners no matter how terrible their homes lives are. But the key to improving "American education" is to get the average up.
And if the average parents are absent, drunk or just generally incompetent, nothing we do to, or for, the teachers is going to do a damn bit of good for anybody. Average performance is going to stay in the basement.
- Tom
pretty much....occasionally there is a bad egg but for the most part student performance is most directly connected to how much their parents care bout them getting good grades....knew some really smart kids that flunked cause their parents didnt care bout school so they didnt either....know some kids that had a hell of a time with anything beyond very basic math and English but cause their parents gave a chit bout grades so did they so they put in the time to get the help to get through the class instead of saying [bleep] it....
In my 31 years experience in the public school system I can categorically state - the parents who complain the most about "the system" - are the same parents who've done a piss-poor job at parenting their own kids.
They need someone to blame!
I have three honour-roll kids at home right now. My peers - are not the reason my own kids excel at school. They help me - but my kids success or failure is entirely my own.
Private schools (due to the cost) always have motivated parents who are sending their kids there.
It is that simple.
But they don't help most of the people who can't afford to send their kids there - do they?
A nation's public school system is among it's most important tools for the betterment of society.
yeah, isn't it amazing how much more attention folks pay to stuff when it's their own hard owned money they are spending, instead of mine?
how much could those folks afford if they got to keep the portion of their tax dollars spent (read: wasted) on education?
show me ONE example of something a government can do better than private industry.
The chief characteristic and distinguishing feature of a Democracy is Rule by Omnipotent Majority. In a Democracy, The Individual, and any group of Individuals composing any Minority, have no protection against the unlimited power of The Majority. It is a case of Majority-over-Man.
A Republic is a constitutionally limited government of the representative type, created by a written Constitution--adopted by the people and changeable (from its original meaning) by them only by its amendment--with its powers divided between three separate Branches, Executive, Legislative and Judicial. Here the term "the people" means, of course, the electorate.
And in addendum: When the "people" are dumbed down or become apathetic to their responsibilities to the point they don't understand the difference, the government itself becomes the Omnipotent force and EVERYBODY loses.
Parents are probably the largest root of the problem, but that can't be controlled.
What can be controlled is students' behavior in school. There was absolutely nothing more frustrating about my own grade school experience than being disrupted by the same dimwits day in and out. IMO, educational progress is held back more by student disruption than by watering of curriculum.
There are options this day in age to deal with this. You could pipe a lecture or instruction into a rubber room, put all of your nincompoops in that room (under some sort of loose supervision), and let them sort themselves out. Good behavior and passing grades gets nincompoop#1 back in the classroom. Poor behavior lets nincompoop#2 sit in there until his 18th birthday if he chooses.
Force of personality should not be required for a teacher to do their work. There has to be some behavior standard, and some sort of subsequent isolation.
Money SPENT on schools doesn't necessarily translate into competency.
It's not extortion - if the majority of the people want it.
well, in the first place the people don't vote on federal taxes so the IRS is not collecting anything the voters ever directly authorized. but, putting that aside, as I said in the original post, even when a tax is legitimately enacted, the collection process is extortion, on many levels.
very similar to the mob's....."nice little business you got there, be a shame if anything happened to it" schpiel.
either you pay us....now, in full....or we will seize your bank account, garnish your wages, padlock your business, empty your cash registers, collect your receivables from those who owe you so you have no cash flow.
want to negotiate? fine....first you sign this waiver of all defenses including the statute of limitations, then we'll talk.
failed to file a return timely, or account for trust funds? Pay us or we'll indict you.....and add your wife who signed the return for leverage.
Yeah, it's pretty much extortion when it goes to collection.
The chief characteristic and distinguishing feature of a Democracy is Rule by Omnipotent Majority. In a Democracy, The Individual, and any group of Individuals composing any Minority, have no protection against the unlimited power of The Majority. It is a case of Majority-over-Man.
A Republic is a constitutionally limited government of the representative type, created by a written Constitution--adopted by the people and changeable (from its original meaning) by them only by its amendment--with its powers divided between three separate Branches, Executive, Legislative and Judicial. Here the term "the people" means, of course, the electorate.
BUT - if the three branches choose (over time) to raise taxes - to provide more social services - you are (I assume), duty-bound to accept those higher taxes.
I hate to point this out to all my teaching amigos who work hard for meager pay, but a real burden on the budget of most systems are pensions and benefits.
Around here, teachers can retire after 30 years with with full pensions and benefits. Let's do some math. Out of college with a teaching certificate at age 22, retire at age 52.
If you live until age 83, the taxpayers are paying for you not to work longer than you worked! That model is unsustainable as the number of retirees grows. Basically, you will ultimately pay for two sets of employees, the ones who teach now, and another duplicate set that are retired.
Why is that simple point over the heads of so many around this fire?
Why is so difficult for the self-appointed intelligentsia too understand what a Democratic Republic means?
I'll keep it real simple for those who can't understand the concept or not intelligent of Greek and Roman problems in ancient times and their democratic downfall: the Democratic Republic is the best system invented to keep New York City from telling Wichita, Kansas what they are to do . IRC, your system of state is not a true democracy either.
Big difference when self-esteem is defined by the educational institutions, financed by State restrictions, as empowerment, as comnpared to self-respect taught as worthiness.
One is earned, the other leads to conflict with other humans. You figure it out.
BUT - if the three branches choose (over time) to raise taxes - to provide more social services - you are (I assume), duty-bound to accept those higher taxes.
Increased social services is a choice nearly always driven by the votes of the recipient class with no personal stake in the costs.
We're bound to accept those taxes in the sense that if we don't the taxman will kick in the door and drag us off to prison. But don't pretend there's anything ethical or consensual about representation by fertility.
BUT - if the three branches choose (over time) to raise taxes - to provide more social services - you are (I assume), duty-bound to accept those higher taxes.
Under a democracy that the republic has become, the three branches are no longer representatives of the "people", they are professional politicians that cater to the "takers" that will vote for them on promise of more handouts.
Abe Lincoln KILLED the Republic with the war of northern aggression oh lo those many years ago. FDR, LBJ and the rest of the liberal demoncrats have continued the destruction.
[quote=Steve_NO]I'll bet you a dollar the US spends substantially more than Canada does per pupil. And it has been demonstrated again and again that spending money has basically zero to do with the product. From the NYT:
New York State spent $14,119 per student � more than any other state in the nation � in the 2005 fiscal year, according to a national analysis of public school spending that the Census Bureau released today.
The analysis, Public Education Finances: 2005, placed New Jersey at No. 2 on the list, at $13,800, followed by the District of Columbia (which was treated as a state) at $12,979, Vermont at $11,835 and Connecticut at $11,572. Seven of the top 10 with the highest per-pupil expenditures were in the Northeast.
Across the nation, public school districts spent an average of $8,701 per student on elementary and secondary education in the 2005 fiscal year, up by 5 percent from $8,287 the previous year.
DC has the worst schools in America, and is third in per pupil spending. Most NY schools are awful in urban areas, despite being number one.
Sadly, the best predictor of school success is a lack of minority students. Heavily black districts underperform no matter how many resources are thrown at them.
[/quote
This.
..and the home/family which is the thread holding together the societal garment. As the family goes, so goes our nation. A kid can overcome his surroundings but it has nothing to do with money.
Our public school system is a morass of waste and incompetence due to unions, political correctness idiocy, all of which reflects the culture and continually asks for more funding.
I wonder what Abe Lincoln or B. Franklin would think? Oh, but wait, they were self taught without gov't (or any ) funding. Or T. Jefferson? Oh, that's right, we know what he thought. That educ should include moral instruction and should should be in the hands of private enterprise mostly
After a quick read through this thread I'm not seeing what the liberals can't see either.
Parents are the weak link.
If parents aren't putting pressure - heavy pressure - on children to learn - many, if not most of their kids are either going to fail or severely underperform.
Some kids will always be losers. Some kids will be winners no matter how terrible their homes lives are. But the key to improving "American education" is to get the average up.
And if the average parents are absent, drunk or just generally incompetent, nothing we do to, or for, the teachers is going to do a damn bit of good for anybody. Average performance is going to stay in the basement.
- Tom
ding ding ding
And here we have it.
Flat tax
4 Rs
Civics
Cut everything else out completely.
BTW - OPs income is derived from tax dollars extorted from other people, so go from there....
Nonsense. In a democracy it is only taxation - WITHOUT REPRESENTATION - that is ever a problem.
In a democracy - if the MAJORITY of the people want the services that higher taxes can provide - it's not "extortion" - it's called DEMOCRACY.
If the majority of the people want higher taxes - for more services - it is their democratic right for governments to listen to them - and give them what they want. In a democracy - we don't always get what WE want - we get what the MAJORITY of the people want.
It's an imperfect system - but it's the best one yet devised.
T hit it; not a democracy - a republic.
You live off of money extorted from other people, and in an environment that is inefficient and largely ineffective, growing in largess and power annually, while failing in it's most basic mission, due to political correctness to protect your position (i.e., can't fail anyone, teach down to the lowest common denominator, else they'll see we're frauds).
You, and those like you, are leaches. Pure and simple.
Explain it, justify it, rationalize it, hype it, any way you can, but unless it's a flat, even tax across the board, and you only teach the basics, you're a leach.
The 2009 PISA test results were released today. The U.S. student scores were a great disappointment � American students finished about two dozen notches down from the pace setting Chinese.
We had a Chinese exchange student for a year just recently. IN his school in China sports and extracurricular activies were discouraged as taking time from academics. In fact he and his peers got so LITTLE exercise the government mandated they walk a kilometer each day before school.
Are there a lot of bright people in China? No doubt.
Are those scores representative of ALL Chinese students? I have no idea, but would guess prob'ly not.
Birdwatcher
A nation's public school system is among it's most important tools for the betterment of society.
Now if I don't care much for society or what direction it goes, does that mean I can opt out from the yearly extortion I'm forced to pay by the white shirts on my land and home?
Education will succeed in America when responsibility is tied to the parents. I wonder what would happen to little Bubba's grades if mom and dad had to attend a two hour remedial study hall on Tuesday and Thursday night when Bubba's not performing up to expectations?
I further wonder what would happen to teen pregnancy if the attendant expenses were appended as a liability to the future grandparent's taxes and/or social security benefits. Perhaps it woud not be so funny if the parents had a DNA fingerprint tied to any and all future earnings or benefits, govt. and otherwise.
The answer is accountability, period.
Oh, by the way, Harry Reid says our taxation system is voluntary, so SteveNO is obviously wrong in his assessment of the poor ol oft maligned IRS. ;-{>
[quote=
Oh, by the way, Harry Reid says our taxation system is voluntary, so SteveNO is obviously wrong in his assessment of the poor ol oft maligned IRS. ;-{> [/quote]
and Charles Rangel sez; "hey what's the problem? I decided not to volunteer for a few years!"
A nation's public school system is among it's most important tools for the betterment of society.
Now if I don't care much for society or what direction it goes, does that mean I can opt out from the yearly extortion I'm forced to pay by the white shirts on my land and home?
NO..if you(or rather some same thinking Canucks)do then his salary might go down...let's not pretend he cares about his students when his income is at play...just like all liberals..."take from the "rich" not me....I am just here to help the less fortunate"....
A nation's public school system is among it's most important tools for the betterment of society.
Now if I don't care much for society or what direction it goes, does that mean I can opt out from the yearly extortion I'm forced to pay by the white shirts on my land and home?
EXACTLY!
(Welcome back, Rex.)
Why is it so many people who would never consider living in public (government provided)housing and who are opposed to public (government provided)health-care are so willing to send their kids to public schools? Our public schools are a God-forsaken mess.
Ya, I meant to add that. ;-{>
Actually,in part I agree with you.
In Canada, the schools with the lowest scores tend to be the schools with the highest native populations.
So - the real question - is how do we help those kids succeed - because if they succeed - everyone in society will benefit.
But how can a society manage such a thing - without using tax-payer money?
Of course taxpayer money will be needed but not for social engineering and birth control to name just 2.
Stop all the touchy feely "everybody is a winner" crap and stress only academics and teaching them HOW to learn. Make em Schools, not social gatherings, DO NOT tolerate bad or disruptive behavior, stress basic skills in the three "R's", bring back industrial arts & home economics (not every kid is gonna be a white collar worker). Move pupils up the ladder based on their achievements, yep, some will be left in the dust but that is how life works.
No child left behind is a BS "feel good" piece of crap. Make them earn it, that is how life works.
Here in Helena more and more parents are pulling their kids from the public schools and putting them Christian private schools or homeschooling them. At the rate we are going in a decade the only kids going to public schools are going to be the stupid, problem kids, and public school teacher kids. |Liberalism is killing public schools because liberals do not educate their kids they expect the schools to do it.
Believe me - there are bad parents on every side of the political spectrum. We have as many problems with brain-dead red-neck conservative parents as we do with brain-dead liberal hippy parents.Bad parenting knows no political boundaries.
The problem isn't related to the parents politics - only their commitment to being active and involved in their own kid's lives and education.
Well Brian, I'm happy that British Columbia is a education paradise. Here in the US education or I should say Public education is a liberal's paradise. Conservatives of any stripe, if they want a decent education for their kids, put their kids in any private school they can including Christian ones for non-Christians rather than use public schools.
Liberalism owns America lock, stock, and barrel. We are trying to change that without bloodshed but the jury's still out on whether we can.
Yes there are teachers unions in Canada - I belong to one. It is a powerful Province-wide union.
We do a good job, we are well rewarded for it. In comparisons to the rest of Canada, and the rest of the world, we always seem to rank highly.
I'd say it's the high degree of co-operation and transparency between the school boards, the administrators, the parents and the teachers that enables this success.
I missed this the first time sorry. Out teachers unions are all socialists organizations and have a strangle hold on the education system. Until the unions are gone nothing much can ever change.
We are trying to change that without bloodshed but the jury's still out on whether we can.
With the threads on this forum at late...not thinkin the jury is still out...
Flat tax
4 Rs
Civics
Cut everything else out completely.
BTW - OPs income is derived from tax dollars extorted from other people, so go from there....
Nonsense. In a democracy it is only taxation - WITHOUT REPRESENTATION - that is ever a problem.
In a democracy - if the MAJORITY of the people want the services that higher taxes can provide - it's not "extortion" - it's called DEMOCRACY.
If the majority of the people want higher taxes - for more services - it is their democratic right for governments to listen to them - and give them what they want. In a democracy - we don't always get what WE want - we get what the MAJORITY of the people want.
It's an imperfect system - but it's the best one yet devised.
Okay, understand this about the US, we are suppose to be a constitutional republic NOT A DEMOCRACY!!!!!! Now I realize that the Fabian Socialists (Fascists?) of both the Republican and Democrat Parties are trying their damndest to turn our nation into a DEMOCRACY while the true Classical Liberal Republicans are trying their damndest to keep this nation a constitutional republic still we are a constitutional republic NOT A DAMN DEMCRACY!!!!!!!!!
You Canadians can keep your damn DEMCRACY!!!!!!
It was set up as a protest against taxes - without representation.
At least how that's the way I read it.
Please tell me - how is a Republic different than a Democracy?
To make this easy to understand, a democracy is 51% of the people terrorizing 49% of the people. A constitutional republic is a body of law protecting the 49% minority of the people from the tyranny of the 51% majority.
In a constitutional republic, just because 51% of the people want to tax rich guys, the rich guys have protection under the law. Anarcho-socialists despise the law because it prevents them from terrorizing the minority. Hence, the reason anarcho-socialists push for democracies until they have total power and control.
The chief characteristic and distinguishing feature of a Democracy is Rule by Omnipotent Majority. In a Democracy, The Individual, and any group of Individuals composing any Minority, have no protection against the unlimited power of The Majority. It is a case of Majority-over-Man.
A Republic is a constitutionally limited government of the representative type, created by a written Constitution--adopted by the people and changeable (from its original meaning) by them only by its amendment--with its powers divided between three separate Branches, Executive, Legislative and Judicial. Here the term "the people" means, of course, the electorate.
BUT - if the three branches choose (over time) to raise taxes - to provide more social services - you are (I assume), duty-bound to accept those higher taxes.
You are having a hard time understanding a constitutional republic I see.
We are trying to change that without bloodshed but the jury's still out on whether we can.
With the threads on this forum at late...not thinkin the jury is still out...
You maybe right.
A nation's public school system is among it's most important tools for the betterment of society.
I would think that a dinner table and some involved parents would trump this statement. If we have a hard time understanding why our country seems to be getting worse in areas like education, I think we need to take a good look at ourselves as a nation and do some soul searching.
I've heard that many of the high performing countries eliminate the non-workers before high school. The US requires them to attend. This lowers our scores.
Anyone know?
Bruce
I don't know about the rest of the country but the problem with Helena schools is not necessarily the parents.
The problem is teachers unions, school boards, politically correct government. Liberalism controls the school board, the unions and government.
Eliminate teachers unions, school boards, and liberalism and problem solved. Replace public schools with private schools paid with vouchers at first and than private funds after that. Staff with non-union private teachers and watch the scores go up exponentially.
I have no problem with teachers making a decent living. I do have a problem giving money to bloated bureaucracies that have more non-teaching employees, than teachers (i.e. California schools).
And it does not matter how much money you throw at education, if standards are low and people are not held accountable for poor performance.
Most of my immediate family are, or were, public school teachers or administrators. All are/were, at the least, competent and cared about the actual success of their students, not just test scores. A few of them I would rate as truly exceptional.
That said, for a myriad of reasons, some already mentioned by previous posters, I believe the only way to salvage education in the U.S. is to privatize it. Education should not be "one size fits all", and in the end public education is a one size fits all product.