Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire If you don't spend enough tax-payer money on schools - this follows

The 2009 PISA test results were released today. The U.S. student scores were a great disappointment � American students finished about two dozen notches down from the pace setting Chinese.

According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), which administers the PISA (Programme for International Student Assessment) tests in about 65 countries worldwide every three years, the next strongest performances after China were from South Korea, Finland, Singapore, CANADA, New Zealand and Japan.

"We have to see this as a wake-up call," Secretary of Education Arne Duncan told The New York Times.�I know skeptics will want to argue with the results, but we consider them to be accurate and reliable, and we have to see them as a challenge to get better. The United States came in 23rd or 24th in most subjects. We can quibble, or we can face the brutal truth that we�re being out-educated.�

It appears that Canada's higher tax rates might be paying dividends...

Laffin'....it's why the world's brightest clamor to matriculate to US schools,I guess. You're a master of obscurity and bizarre finds and thought processes,Canuck!

Yep for sure - America's public schools are the envy of the free world!

have to fund schools for certain, but I'd be interested to see a link that correlates the test scores with money spent per student.


my personal opinion IS it's not so much that we don't fund our schools sufficiently as we put an emphasis on feel good about yourself no matter what you fail to accomplish, don't strike back at bullies tell somebody instead, and oh we'll try and cover those 3 R things the last 15 minutes of class.

have no way of knowing but it would surprise me none that Chinese schools don't tolerate bad behavior, discipline is in ready supply.

and the gov't doesn't reward bad behavior, i.e. having more kids than you can care for with different men.


just my thoughts on the matter


I do know that in our school district, we spend almost as much money on SPED as we do on the whole district. Couldn't hardly believe we spend that much money on so few kids, but it's a fact.

Have to run up the Bu!!$hit Flag on that one. Washington DC is a great case study. They spend more than $25,000 per student and they have the worst schools in the nation.

Quality of instruction and curricula, combined with student and parental participation are the determining factor, not total tax dollars spent.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/04/AR2008040402921.html

I'll bet you a dollar the US spends substantially more than Canada does per pupil. And it has been demonstrated again and again that spending money has basically zero to do with the product. From the NYT:


New York State spent $14,119 per student � more than any other state in the nation � in the 2005 fiscal year, according to a national analysis of public school spending that the Census Bureau released today.

The analysis, Public Education Finances: 2005, placed New Jersey at No. 2 on the list, at $13,800, followed by the District of Columbia (which was treated as a state) at $12,979, Vermont at $11,835 and Connecticut at $11,572. Seven of the top 10 with the highest per-pupil expenditures were in the Northeast.
Across the nation, public school districts spent an average of $8,701 per student on elementary and secondary education in the 2005 fiscal year, up by 5 percent from $8,287 the previous year.



DC has the worst schools in America, and is third in per pupil spending. Most NY schools are awful in urban areas, despite being number one.

Sadly, the best predictor of school success is a lack of minority students. Heavily black districts underperform no matter how many resources are thrown at them.

Actually,in part I agree with you.

In Canada, the schools with the lowest scores tend to be the schools with the highest native populations.

So - the real question - is how do we help those kids succeed - because if they succeed - everyone in society will benefit.

But how can a society manage such a thing - without using tax-payer money?

yep, I was right. these are 2001 number so the gap may not be as extreme now, but Canada spends less that the US on average, and way less than the big spending states:

In 2000-2001, total per-student spending at the elementary and secondary levels ($7 141) was higher than in the
Atlantic Provinces ($6 570), but lower than in Ontario ($7 742) and Western Canada ($7 614).


so, Brian, what do you think they're doing with all those tax dollars?

Money does not equal quality.

My kids catholic school gets HALF as much income per student and does better.

Parents and teachers invested in education matter.

Mo' money is for whores.

BMT

Private schools (due to the cost) always have motivated parents who are sending their kids there.

It is that simple.

But they don't help most of the people who can't afford to send their kids there - do they?

A nation's public school system is among it's most important tools for the betterment of society.

Here's a novel, and past used concept. Put those with special needs in special schools. Whether those special needs are mental defects that will never allow the student to perform at average level, or student whose sole goal is to disrupt the school.

Put the 80% that is going to learn together, rather then including that 20% that will drag them down to their level. Way too much $ and effort is spent on those that will never perform, and they drag everyone down with them. I'd venture to say that our school district spends upwards of 50% of their budget on the special needs students.

"If you don't spend enough tax-payer money on schools - this follows...." BCBrian


Total BS...but I think you see that now. I'm glad that you've found an area where your country is better in something than the USA. Keep paying those high taxes.

Until Obm@ came to town, the DC schools and others had voucher programs that allowed students to get vouchers so that they could attend private schools if they chose to. Those parents were motivated to better their kids and .gov was giving them a way to do so-until the teachers unions convinced Obm@ and the Dems to end the programs.

A public school system that that year after year does nothing to educate and everything to indoctrinate is no tool for the betterment of society. It only becomes so if it is offering a curricula that allows it to do so, something that the majority of public schools in the USA have long failed to do.

No it isn't. The govenrment mucks up everything it does, esp. the schools.

Flat tax that EVERYONE pays based purely on income, no deductions.

Itemized bill received monthly, no withholding, make folks write the check.

No property taxes rolled into mortegages either, again, make folks write the check.

If folks realized that "Public" education isn't free and they pay tuition not just while their kids are in school but every month from the day they own a home or rent an apartment until the day they don't, maybe they'd be as involved as the private school parents.

Itemized bills are telling.

It has nothing to do with the amount of money, and has everything to do with demographics and the reality of what the legal system has imposed over the past 50 years. School systems are charged with educating each and every student. Therefore, they are forced to water down the curriculum to the lowest common denominator. They must, least they labeled racially insensitive or worse. Remember when the SAT was declared racially biased? (It is beyond me how mathematics can be racially biased.)So it was dumbed down to the point that that mean scores were inflated, and an essay was necessary.

No, it's not about money, but it is about expectations and politics.

Wake up call is right.. Get rid of tenure and hire/fire according to performance and watch the kids bloom..

In the US, the first step would be to abolish the teacher's unions.

I live and work as an educator in a district that has the highest tax rates in the state. The additional money we spend per pupil cannot keep up with the societal issues faced. Our district has attempted the charter school route, but that was a failure beyond imagination and an even greater rip-off to the taxpayers than one could claim about the public schools. In an area where unemployment is 20% and out-of-wedlock births exceed 75%, the battle is all uphill. It is easier to have babies, encourage their identification as "Exceptional", and draw $600+ per month in disability per child. Education holds no promise for a great number of Americans and we are now facing a second generation of those who see no value in a diploma. Teachers, principals, and superintendents cannot fix that. Who is to blame? Sure the teachers (and their unions especially) have to accept some blame, but not as much as the gov't officials who created the Welfare State, and the "social" leaders who have for decades preached "victimization" and "multi-culturalism" at the expense of American values. . .

School systems waste their money� why do they need professional grade �Sports Arenas� ?

They should stick to spending their money on education and paying teachers for results� Like private schools.

I sent my sons to private schools� and STILL had to pay school taxs� but I�m not bitter

Wait I AM bitter