What is the stated rationale (and the real one) for some states insisting that hunters use shotguns?
It actually might make sense in NJ, were you cannot go more than 100 yards without running into either a strip mall or a split level.
Here in Iowa, it's relatively flat, open land with dwellings fairly close to one another in terms of bullet travel.
Relative safety, as in NJ. Just not as obvious.
It likely made sense when most deer hunting was done by still hunting or driving deer and excited hunters were taking shots as they came. Also, prior to WW II most eastern hunters did not use scopes. Since that time, much deer hunting is done from stands or blinds and most hunters use optics. Also, these days hunters are required to take safety courses which has helped a lot in reducing accidents.
In Ohio, there's lots of dwellings, and many of the woods are relatively small. It's not that big a deal-we've been subjected to it for as long as I can remember. Carrying a shotgun these days isn't such a disadvantage with the accuracy and longer ranges they are capable of.
In Ohio, there's lots of dwellings, and many of the woods are relatively small. It's not that big a deal-we've been subjected to it for as long as I can remember. Carrying a shotgun these days isn't such a disadvantage with the accuracy and longer ranges they are capable of.
Do you mean that in the whole of Ohio it would be dangerous to hunt with a rifle???
Here in Iowa, it's relatively flat, open land with dwellings fairly close to one another in terms of bullet travel.
Same thing: do you imply that in the whole state of Iowa it would be dangerous to hunt with a rifle???
Do you mean that in the whole of Ohio it would be dangerous to hunt with a rifle???
It would certainly be dangerous for the deer
I don't imply it, the state mandates it. The question isn't whether or not you can safely shoot a rifle anywhere in Iowa, but whether hunters would self-impose care about choosing the limited number of places it could be done. (The lower two tiers of counties are open to rifle hunting for antlerless deer during a special January late season. The terrain/population/hunter numbers there and then is deemed capable of handling it.)
The stated reason seems to be safety. In a lot of the open farmland regions with limited cover, I believe that it's also used as a management tool to keep too many deer from being taken with less restriction on selling tags.
I don't know but I hate it. No matter if it is buckshot or slugs, it just ain't right.
Iowa allows hunting coyotes with anything from 22's to 458 mags. I think their argument against center fires is worn out and not valid. How far would a sabot slug travel?
In Iowa we can hunt doe's in a special January season in the bottom two rows of Iowa counties but it's shotgun and muzzle loader for the rest of the State and all of the other seasons except Archery.
I talked with a gal who rehabs eagles and hawks a few days ago and she claims the lead sheared off of slugs is left in the deer gut piles and kills the eagles as it goes through the digestive tract. It makes sense so I suggested she fight for a center fire season that makes copper bullets madatory.
I'm sure we would have a number of Iowa deer hunters who would shoot copper bullets for the chance to deer hunt with their center fires. The same ones they drag out of the closet to shoot coyotes. kwg
Mil. installations are the same with shotguns, archery, muzzleloaders.
In Indian they say our population per square mile but I got it figured out....I use a rifle.
A legal rifle...that is.
Thing is, in MN, I could use a handgun chambered in 30-378 in slug zone, but I can't use a rifle chambered in .44 magnum.
There's lots of crazy rules and people in Yankee Land.
Why do some state's insist on shotguns for hunting?
They hate children, they don't want them to hunt deer.
Most states with rules like that are hypocritical about it - rifles of any caliber are OK for everything else. So you know it's not about safety.
Most of Idaho allows rifles but there are a few areas near heavily populated areas where they specify 'short range weapons'. That includes shotguns, handguns, or muzzleloaders.
You're referring to states that allow deer hunting with shotgun only, right?
Lots of counties in Wisconsin used to be shotgun only. There's a few left, but most now allow hunting with centerfire rifles.
Most hunters prefer to hunt with rifles given the choice, and I don't think it can be proven that shotguns are safer.
A 2007 study by Pennsylvania's Legislative Budget and Finance Committee did a study called "Do Shotguns and Muzzleloaders Pose Less Risk Than Centerfire Rifles for Hunting Deer in Pennsylvania?". You can read the entire PDF
here , or read the highlights (which I recommend)
here.
Here is a good one. In Wisconsin a portion of the state is shotgun muzzleloader or pistol. I have the misfortune of hunting in such a area. It is legal to hunt with a 44 magnum pistol. Couple years ago they tried to pass a law allowing pistol caliber rifles in the zone. I was hoping it would pass as I have more than a sane amount of 44 mag rifles. Also It would be nice to shoot cheap reloads apposed to three to five dollar a pop slugs and be able to afford to put a hundred rounds or so through the gun I am going to hunt with. Anyways the DNR opposed the law. It would be too difficult to train all the wardens how to identify pistol caliber rifles. I guess being able to read is not a requirement for a wisconsin game warden. Well law was not passed. So back to my savage 12 gauge. My dad hunts with a savage muzzleloader and remington xp 100 chambered in 350 remington mag.
Yep the 350 is legal as is any 22caliber or larger center fire in a pistol. Now here is my favorite part of the law. You can hunt small game except birds with ANY handgun legal for deer hunting.
So I can go launch a 200 grain bullet at 2600 FPS skyward at a squirrel sitting in top of a tree. Totally stupid yet legal. But I cannot shoot a 44 magnum rifle at a deer with a hill as backstop behind it.
It is just pure stupidity. Every year in Wisconsin the majority of accidents when someone is shot involves a shotgun. Slug hits something hard good luck guessing where it is gonna end up. Rifle round more often than not is gonna flatten and be stopped by whatever it hits or penetrate and expel it's energy. Just don't get the DNRs thinking.
Also funny how many people in shotgun zones have a nice pretty gun that looks like it has never been hunted hard or fired often that they carry into the woods. Yet they have a 30/30 or bolt action that is beat to hell and looks like it has not seen the inside of a building since it left the store. Gee wonder why that is
About half of NY was traditionally shotgun only. I guess around 10 years ago NY started transitioning from shotgun to rifle. Despite some who thought it would be a disaster, it hasn't resulted in an uptick in accidents.
Back when the shotgun seasons were instsituted most deer hunters either still hunted or did deer drives. This lead to lots of shooting and not all of it was that accurate. These days more and more folks are hunting from stands and blinds and many more shots are more deliberate.
Most of the area that has transitioned from shotgun to rifle looks pretty similar to Ohio and perhaps some there will use NY's record to make similar changes there
On public land its shotgun and slugs only for deer hunting here is CT. On Private Land well 6mm or better for a center fire. They say its a safety issue, its a load of crap, but myths are hard to disprove. These days shotgun and slugs can be very effective and very accurate compared to what the deal was 40 years ago.
A 2007 study by Pennsylvania's Legislative Budget and Finance Committee did a study called "Do Shotguns and Muzzleloaders Pose Less Risk Than Centerfire Rifles for Hunting Deer in Pennsylvania?"
Excellent way to spend tax dollars.
The real reason is ignorance.
The real reason is ignorance.
Really and truly, that is at the heart of it. I am an Ohio resident that does most of his hunting across the river in Kentucky. Back when I made my switch:
1) Ohio did not allow Sunday hunting. Kentucky did.
2) Ohio required a shotgun, muzzleloader, or a few select pistol cartridges. Kentucky? Any centerfire rifle.
3) Ohio's Modern Weapons season did not start until after Thanksgiving. Kentucky's started at the peak of the rut in mid-November.
4) Ohio allowed only one buck per season. Kentucky allowed 2 per season.
5) Ohio's Opener was on a Monday. Kentucky's was on a Saturday.
Since then Ohio has updated its rules a little. You can hunt Sunday now. Meanwhile, Kentucky's herd grew to the point where they decided to start managing for bigger bucks. You can take only 1 buck per season now, but in some areas, you can take as many doe as you want. By that time, I'd already bought land in Kentucky, and I doubt I will ever move back.
Shotgun? This is one of those issues where the anti-hunting pressures and general ignorance combine to thwart good sense. The anti-hunters don't want to give an inch and fight any attempt to modernize the hunting rules. The common wisdom is that shotguns are safer, because the slugs do not carry as far. However, the morbidity statistics between KY and OH say otherwise. The number of deaths and injuries are equal between the two states. Go figure.
There is also a considerable amount of inertia in this in the way of tradition. A lot of Buckeye hunters just don't want to give up their shotguns. Sure, they'll spend $200 a season on ammo trying to get an extra 25 yards out of their shotguns. However, they won't spend the same money to support even a baby step forward like Indiana did with their move to pistol-caliber rifles.
Then it starts getting weird. I've seen folks say the reason Ohio and Iowa have more big bucks than KY is because of the shotgun-only laws. It's true. Iowa and Ohio do produce more B&C bucks than Kentucky, but is it really the shotguns that do it? I have yet to hear a cogent argument to support this.
I will say this: there are some counties in Ohio that have harvest numbers that are over twice that of my county in Kentucky. There are a lot of deer in those counties, and a bunch more hunters. I can see why there might be some concern. I've been out in Ohio on public land. Yikes! Standing on a side of a ridge on Opening Day, it was like thousands of orange fireflies flitting amongst the trees with all the hunters abroad. However, I cannot see Coshocton County turning into a massive circular firing squad if hunters suddenly switched to 'Ought-Sixes and Thurdy-Thurdies.
Frankly, I am happy to pay the non-resident fees every year and leave the madness behind.
So far in Tn, we are still rifle. Except federal and military installations.
Also, in our heavily urbanized areas there were some challenges to "hunting in city limits" for some situations involving suburbanized deer populations.
For example Davidson County population about 700k (Metro-Nashville) has claim to the whole county as technically being "city". So, some were claiming that illegal discharge of a firearm BS. The TnWildlife Resources Agency rules that state hunting laws over ride city ordinances. So we rifle hunt near heavily populated areas for now. Although most guys I know of tend to discretely use archery tackle so as not to alert the mass bunny-hugger rebellion.
In Ohio, there's lots of dwellings, and many of the woods are relatively small. It's not that big a deal-we've been subjected to it for as long as I can remember. Carrying a shotgun these days isn't such a disadvantage with the accuracy and longer ranges they are capable of.
Do you mean that in the whole of Ohio it would be dangerous to hunt with a rifle???
It's illeagal to hunt DEER with a rifle in Ohio.
And un- needed.
It's not Wyoming. Ohio farmlands are flat. Except for the SE 1/3 of the state.
In the NW the highest elevation you'll find is a freeway ramp!
Shoot a 30-06 there and you'll hit a house in Indiana.
Even before gun makers decided to help. Our shotguns were plenty for deer.
I put a mid barrel bead on my favorite J. C. Higgins pump and could hold slugs on a paper plate all day at 75 yards.
Now? we''ve got scopes and rifled tubes.. 150 yards ? no problem.
No grizzels or tigers unless some nut decides to let them loose!
What is the stated rationale (and the real one) for some states insisting that hunters use shotguns?
It actually might make sense in NJ, were you cannot go more than 100 yards without running into either a strip mall or a split level.
So you're sayin' a shotgun slug can't travel more than 100 yards???
We have the same BS here in the part of TAX HELL WISCONSIN.. And it's exactly what I called it - BS!!!! Think of it - I can use a .44 magnum handgun (or .357, or .45LC etc) , but I can't use a lever-action rifle chambered in THOSE VERY SAME CARTRIDGES...
It's utter stupidity..
Here in Iowa, it's relatively flat, open land with dwellings fairly close to one another in terms of bullet travel.
Of course Florida is as flat as Iowa and has 7 TIMES the population density of Iowa. And we even use rifles for turkey and our Deer rifle season is 6 TIMES longer than your shotgun season.
I know you don't make the law, but the safety excuse for shotgun only is pure retard logic.
There ain't no reason to not use rifles along the river in Illinois, Indiana and Ohio. Ohio has more mountainous counties than Illinois too. Illinois manages deer hunting by county. No reason Ohio can't too.
Here in Wi most the shotgun only zones have been done away with and the sky hasn't fallen yet. No dead cows,no bullets flying into school yards, and no
Old lady's taking some lead while they read the Sunday paper.
A lot of people including hunters around here are against rifles.
In Ohio, there's lots of dwellings, and many of the woods are relatively small. It's not that big a deal-we've been subjected to it for as long as I can remember. Carrying a shotgun these days isn't such a disadvantage with the accuracy and longer ranges they are capable of.
Do you mean that in the whole of Ohio it would be dangerous to hunt with a rifle???
It's illeagal to hunt DEER with a rifle in Ohio.
And un- needed.
It's not Wyoming. Ohio farmlands are flat. Except for the SE 1/3 of the state.
In the NW the highest elevation you'll find is a freeway ramp!
Shoot a 30-06 there and you'll hit a house in Indiana.
Even before gun makers decided to help. Our shotguns were plenty for deer.
I put a mid barrel bead on my favorite J. C. Higgins pump and could hold slugs on a paper plate all day at 75 yards.
Now? we''ve got scopes and rifled tubes.. 150 yards ? no problem.
No grizzels or tigers unless some nut decides to let them loose!
Why would you hit a house with an 06? Unless you AIMED at a house? One of my MZ is capable of 300 yards really easily... Shotguns pretty much to 200 these days....
Virginia is divided{east of and west of the Blue Ridge mtns} Luckily I am west of and can use rifles.
It's illeagal to hunt DEER with a rifle in Ohio.
And un- needed.
It's not Wyoming. Ohio farmlands are flat. Except for the SE 1/3 of the state.
In the NW the highest elevation you'll find is a freeway ramp!
Shoot a 30-06 there and you'll hit a house in Indiana.
Even before gun makers decided to help. Our shotguns were plenty for deer.
I put a mid barrel bead on my favorite J. C. Higgins pump and could hold slugs on a paper plate all day at 75 yards.
Now? we''ve got scopes and rifled tubes.. 150 yards ? no problem.
No grizzels or tigers unless some nut decides to let them loose!
Sorry, but that is pure stupidity. Flat land is no more dangerous than hunting hills. Florida has 25% more population density than Ohio and we don't have any issue. Our rifle season is also MUCH longer than your shotgun season.
I hunt Florida and Tennessee, one flat as a pancake and the other mountainous and hilly. I have to be cognizant of my shot background much more in Tennessee than Florida, as you're much more likely to have a shot that rises in elevation to the target or where you cannot see what lies behind the target.
On flat land, you can see your backdrop and unless you're sitting in a hole and the deer is taking a nap in your tree stand, only a retard is going to have a shot that travels beyond the line of sight.
only a retard is going to have a shot that travels beyond the line of sight.
Not a bad description of many a deer hunter.
only a retard is going to have a shot that travels beyond the line of sight.
Not a bad description of many a deer hunter.
That's true, but theoretically the dumbass factor should be roughly equivalant state to state.
A 2007 study by Pennsylvania's Legislative Budget and Finance Committee did a study called "Do Shotguns and Muzzleloaders Pose Less Risk Than Centerfire Rifles for Hunting Deer in Pennsylvania?"
Excellent way to spend tax dollars.
Actually that helped save us from going slugs only around here IIRC.
Years ago dad wouldn't let us kids use rifles as he thought they were too dangerous compared to rifles.
After a rather hair raising experience which taught him how far slugs go after they ricochet and how often they do so, he started easing up and we havent used slugs on our farm in 10 years.
Bottom line, if you dont practice safe shooting habits, line of fire, know whats beyond the target, etc, a shotgun and slugs won't be much safer.
In fact, my experience is, when folks switch to shotguns, they think they can shoot every which way "because they don't go very far".
I talked with a gal who rehabs eagles and hawks a few days ago and she claims the lead sheared off of slugs is left in the deer gut piles and kills the eagles as it goes through the digestive tract. It makes sense so I suggested she fight for a center fire season that makes copper bullets madatory.
Why not copper slugs? Barnes makes them.
Frankly, I don't believe there is much of any lead sheared off slugs. I've recovered very few but those I have were intact.
In Iowa we can also use handguns, just no bottleneck cases, and muzzleloaders, including the smokeless Savage's. I don't feel hampered by the requirements, but for those who do, just stay home.
(not pointed at anyone in particular)
I think it is kind of ridiculous to argue the need for shotguns based on the assumption that the bulk of hunters are slobs, or that a large number of hunters are going to make the heinous error of shooting blindly into the air and causing a bullet to carry miles.
I hunt in SW Bracken County, KY. Opening day has between 1-3 shot strings per minute during the first 4 hours of the Rifle Opener. I've been hunting this location for 10 years. Any centerfire rifle is legal, but you may have no more than a 10-round magazine. Despite the incredible volume of fire and the extremely high density of hunters and deer. . .
a) No windows have ever been broken
b) No siding has ever received a bullet hole
c) No leaks have ever shown up in the roof attributable to a bullet
c) We have had no damage to any property whatsoever
Furthermore, I resided the house in 2002. At the time, the house had been standing since 1902. After 100 years standing, I found no evidence in the siding, studs, or other structures of the house to indicate bullet damage.
I have had exactly one incident in 10 years. In November 2001, I was walking across the yard between the house and the sheds and I did hear one bullet come tumbling overhead. It was probably a ricochet from a long way off. However, in the next decade, out in the worst of it, I have yet to hear a bullet in the trees while I'm in my stand.
To my knowledge, Ohio and Kentucky have similar morbidity due to hunting. Most incidents are due to a rookie hunter shooting someone at close range in a mistaken-for-game accident. That is something no limit on firearms is going to fix. I remember one episode in KY back in 2004 where a round went into a car door while the vehicle was going down the expressway, but that's about it. Most farmers I've met with over the years (on both sides of the Ohio) are more worried about squirrel hunters using 22 LR and coon hunters than they are about centerfire rifle.
At a 0� firing angle and taking ricochets into account, some widely used shotgun-ammunition combinations are riskier than centerfire rifles. The relative risk of shot-guns versus rifles depends on the ammunition and angle at which the shot is fired. At ele-vated angles (35, 10 and 5 degrees), modern high velocity saboted shotgun slugs1 travel shorter distances and therefore are less risky than many common centerfire rifle-ammunition combinations. However, when fired at approximately 0� (i.e., a hunter firing at a deer on level ground), the same 12 gauge shotgun-ammunition combinations were found to be more risky than .30-06 rifles be-cause the modern shotgun slugs tend to travel further after ricocheting than rifle bullets. This is because, after hitting the ground at shallow angles of impact, rifle bullet ricochets tend to tumble in flight, creating a high drag, whereas shotgun slugs maintain more of their energy and aerodynamic properties and there-fore travel further. In all cases, muzzleloaders were less risky than both rifles and shotguns.
Mil. installations are the same with shotguns, archery, muzzleloaders.
Campbell used to allow rifles in certain areas on the long weekends during deer season, do they not allow that anymore? I left there in '99, but they used to do that.
Politicians are seldom woodsmen and G&F officials are seldom ballistics experts. Truth confuses them and they much prefer a hot cup of dogma.
Other side of the coin is that 30 years of shooting hogs and deer with rifles, shotguns and handguns, there wasn't a one I could not have taken with a shotgun, and most could have fallen to a handgun. Still prefer rifles for deer though.
My opinion FWIW, since the advent of inline muzzle loaders and sabot slugs, the distinction between shotguns, MLs and rifles is very fuzzy from a regulatory perspective in most states. Don't even know why they bother anymore.
Mil. installations are the same with shotguns, archery, muzzleloaders.
Campbell used to allow rifles in certain areas on the long weekends during deer season, do they not allow that anymore? I left there in '99, but they used to do that.
i have hunted campbell since 1992
naw they dont anymore man and it friggin sucks
the hunting and fishing unit is run by morons now literally
the garrison commander listens to them
i left in 98
and came back in 01
after sept 11th
you couldnt hunt with a center fire rifle anymore
but noone yet has been able to explain to me the difference bewtween taking a 150-200 yard shot witha modern day inline and the same shot with a center fire
it was someone enacting a petpeeve
the typical dumba$$ good idea fairy
most of the rifle areas also was around the north and south impact areas only and west of palmyra road
dont matter to me know anyways
i cant get into those areas unless some miracle happens
aint got the 0800 call in time no more
41,40,42a,42b
i took alot of nice bucks out of those areas for sure
but i also know alot of areas just as good now
that your average ftcky fire break hunter wont go into
also helps that forrrestry aint cut or cleaned up any firebreak on the west side of the north impact in over 4 -5 years
so that deters elmer fudds from going into places also
hidden glow tack trails are the way to go in alot of places
i hunt 50
44a 09b 21
places 90% of hunters on that post wont walk too or make the effort to scout and learn the ground
i hunt post with a 50 cal tc renegade
if i could get a cva kodiak promag in 45
i would use that also
if i had the funds to get a savage smokeless i would use one of those
my middle daughter hunted with me for a couple of years
i got her a 20 ga ultra slug hunter
did i few mods to it
shot the hasting lasar accurate slugs out of it when i used after she gave up hunting
she used the hornady 250 gr sst 20 ga load
with those hastings slugs it was a 2 inch gun all day long at 100 yards
i shot 1 buck in area 42b before i sold it with a hasting slug
dirt roll him in tracks
i shot a real nice buck in area 50 with those hornady slugs the year prior to that
that deer rose like the under taker from grave after about 15 minutes of being down and after about 5 minutes of it not breathing it seemed like to me
i should have put a round into its brisket and chest area when it was down
but for dumb reason i was worried about meat damage of all things.........
bad mistake
3rd deer i ever lost in my life
not a drop of blood on the ground side of its chest where i watched it lay down
didnt even get a punch thru on it at 45-50 yards
i think the round only one lunged him honestly
stayed out till sundown ttracking the thing, went back for 3 days
looking for buzzards
birds
ravens yotes
whatever might find it dead
never found the deer
sickening feeling
probably lived
who knows
i honestly blame it on bullet performance of that 20 ga sst round
had no shocking power behind
i would not reccomend those rounds to anyone
the hastings rounds and the rem copper solids are ones i have used with great results with hitting power wise and accuracy when using a slug gun
i have also heard some good things about brenneke slugs from people that use them
but then again
things i shoot with my tc renegade go down also
but i have also had deer out their at 125 -150
yards i wont take a shot at with it out of a sense of decency to the animal
it is basically a 100 yardish gun
but it is accurate as heck
so that is why im thinking scoped modern inline to get that extra distance in some of the places i hunt on ftcky
Gentlemen, Gentlemen!
You are arguing about regulations decided upon by bureaucrats in government agencies. Please do not expect anything approaching reason, science and mathematics, or common sense to be utilized in their formulation.
No-one has provided scientific data to support the contention that shotguns are less risky than center-fire rifles.
The study I linked to earlier includes reason, science, and mathematics in support of that statement. Pretty much puts the argument to bed.
A 2007 study by Pennsylvania's Legislative Budget and Finance Committee did a study called "Do Shotguns and Muzzleloaders Pose Less Risk Than Centerfire Rifles for Hunting Deer in Pennsylvania?"
Excellent way to spend tax dollars.
That study was very excellant to real world. It was conducted by the DOD DARPA organization and compared the new plastic tip shotgun sabot/muzzleloading round to the standard 30'06 "lead tip" bullet and found that the plastic sabot from a muzzle loader or shotgun went further with ricochets than the lead tip 30'06.
good study, but kind of skewed in one aspect. Any lead tip (rifle, shotgun or muzzleloader) will deform more than the plastic tips, but shows the inherent imporovement in rounds for shotguns and muzzleloaders have outdistanced old schools of thought and understanding of bullet ricochets of various projectiles.
shot the hasting lasar accurate slugs out of it when i used after she gave up hunting
she used the hornady 250 gr sst 20 ga load
i think the round only one lunged him honestly
i honestly blame it on bullet performance of that 20 ga sst round
had no shocking power behind
Interesting, I would blame it on poor shot placement! You could have used a 10 gauge and would not have mattered.
I have killed deer with that very same round in my TC Encore to 186 yards and complete pass throughs and wide blood trails if they even run off.
I also have a HR 20 gauge slug hunter that performs the same way, so cannot be the gun either.
It's illeagal to hunt DEER with a rifle in Ohio.
And un- needed.
It's not Wyoming. Ohio farmlands are flat. Except for the SE 1/3 of the state.
In the NW the highest elevation you'll find is a freeway ramp!
Shoot a 30-06 there and you'll hit a house in Indiana.
Even before gun makers decided to help. Our shotguns were plenty for deer.
I put a mid barrel bead on my favorite J. C. Higgins pump and could hold slugs on a paper plate all day at 75 yards.
Now? we''ve got scopes and rifled tubes.. 150 yards ? no problem.
No grizzels or tigers unless some nut decides to let them loose!
Sorry, but that is pure stupidity. Flat land is no more dangerous than hunting hills. Florida has 25% more population density than Ohio and we don't have any issue. Our rifle season is also MUCH longer than your shotgun season.
I hunt Florida and Tennessee, one flat as a pancake and the other mountainous and hilly. I have to be cognizant of my shot background much more in Tennessee than Florida, as you're much more likely to have a shot that rises in elevation to the target or where you cannot see what lies behind the target.
On flat land, you can see your backdrop and unless you're sitting in a hole and the deer is taking a nap in your tree stand, only a retard is going to have a shot that travels beyond the line of sight.
If you hunt Florida and Tenn....
worry about those states
Ohioans are fine with shotguns.
Muzzelloaders and bows.
If you want long range mountain hunting... go west.
I see no one from Ohio biatchin for a rifle.
only a retard is going to have a shot that travels beyond the line of sight.
Not a bad description of many a deer hunter.
That's true, but theoretically the dumbass factor should be roughly equivalant state to state.
The point being that dumbasses can do a lot more damage here than in some states - for instance Florida with it's dense vegetation vs IA with it bare dirt.
i hunt post with a 50 cal tc renegade
if i could get a cva kodiak promag in 45
i would use that also
if i had the funds to get a savage smokeless i would use one of those
my middle daughter hunted with me for a couple of years
i got her a 20 ga ultra slug hunter
did i few mods to it
shot the hasting lasar accurate slugs out of it when i used after she gave up hunting
she used the hornady 250 gr sst 20 ga load
with those hastings slugs it was a 2 inch gun all day long at 100 yards
i shot 1 buck in area 42b before i sold it with a hasting slug
dirt roll him in tracks
i shot a real nice buck in area 50 with those hornady slugs the year prior to that
that deer rose like the under taker from grave after about 15 minutes of being down and after about 5 minutes of it not breathing it seemed like to me
i should have put a round into its brisket and chest area when it was down
but for dumb reason i was worried about meat damage of all things.........
bad mistake
3rd deer i ever lost in my life
not a drop of blood on the ground side of its chest where i watched it lay down
didnt even get a punch thru on it at 45-50 yards
i think the round only one lunged him honestly
stayed out till sundown ttracking the thing, went back for 3 days
looking for buzzards
birds
ravens yotes
whatever might find it dead
never found the deer
sickening feeling
probably lived
who knows
i honestly blame it on bullet performance of that 20 ga sst round
had no shocking power behind
i would not reccomend those rounds to anyone
the hastings rounds and the rem copper solids are ones i have used with great results with hitting power wise and accuracy when using a slug gun
i have also heard some good things about brenneke slugs from people that use them
but then again
things i shoot with my tc renegade go down also
but i have also had deer out their at 125 -150
yards i wont take a shot at with it out of a sense of decency to the animal
it is basically a 100 yardish gun
but it is accurate as heck
so that is why im thinking scoped modern inline to get that extra distance in some of the places i hunt on ftcky
Shot placement and very poor at that rather than bullet failure. Had you put a 20 through vitals that deer would have been dead. Odds are you hit forward and high, and stunned the deer and never touched vitals at all. Lots of folks don't have a CLUE about where vitals REALLY are located. And thats a shame. I saw it every time I taught hunter ed, one thing was we had a deer, and vitals and bones cut out. It took a LONG time to get it all lined out right...
The study I linked to earlier includes reason, science, and mathematics in support of that statement. Pretty much puts the argument to bed.
Most of it is "screw-the-other-guy" crap made up by Fudds. For instance, I present the Illinois 3-shot capacity limit. About the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Most of it is "screw-the-other-guy" crap made up by Fudds. For instance, I present the Illinois 3-shot capacity limit. About the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Sounds good to me. Make mandatory singleshots for all I care
In Indian they say our population per square mile but I got it figured out....I use a rifle.
A legal rifle...that is.
^^^TROLL!!
Most of it is "screw-the-other-guy" crap made up by Fudds. For instance, I present the Illinois 3-shot capacity limit. About the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Sounds good to me. Make mandatory singleshots for all I care
I agree on the mandatory single shots. But I want them as archery, not as a firearm, mandatory archery only works for me...
In Indian they say our population per square mile...
Do they employ code talkers to spread the word?
Part of Michigan is shotgun only for deer hunting, and has been since about the 1920's. One can legally hunt cottontails there with a .30'06, but not deer. No, it doesn't make sense, but I also don't hear much talk about hunters wanting to change it. I live about 7 hours drive from the shotgun zone, so maybe that is why I don't hear much discussion about it.
Most of it is "screw-the-other-guy" crap made up by Fudds. For instance, I present the Illinois 3-shot capacity limit. About the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Sounds good to me. Make mandatory singleshots for all I care
Is this supposed to shock me? Coming from an 0bama voter...
shot the hasting lasar accurate slugs out of it when i used after she gave up hunting
she used the hornady 250 gr sst 20 ga load
i think the round only one lunged him honestly
i honestly blame it on bullet performance of that 20 ga sst round
had no shocking power behind
Interesting, I would blame it on poor shot placement! You could have used a 10 gauge and would not have mattered.
I have killed deer with that very same round in my TC Encore to 186 yards and complete pass throughs and wide blood trails if they even run off.
I also have a HR 20 gauge slug hunter that performs the same way, so cannot be the gun either.
hmmmmmm poor shot placement
was you looking over my shoulder
hit him right behind the shoulder
and beleive it or not
you was not their
just saying
i hunt post with a 50 cal tc renegade
if i could get a cva kodiak promag in 45
i would use that also
if i had the funds to get a savage smokeless i would use one of those
my middle daughter hunted with me for a couple of years
i got her a 20 ga ultra slug hunter
did i few mods to it
shot the hasting lasar accurate slugs out of it when i used after she gave up hunting
she used the hornady 250 gr sst 20 ga load
with those hastings slugs it was a 2 inch gun all day long at 100 yards
i shot 1 buck in area 42b before i sold it with a hasting slug
dirt roll him in tracks
i shot a real nice buck in area 50 with those hornady slugs the year prior to that
that deer rose like the under taker from grave after about 15 minutes of being down and after about 5 minutes of it not breathing it seemed like to me
i should have put a round into its brisket and chest area when it was down
but for dumb reason i was worried about meat damage of all things.........
bad mistake
3rd deer i ever lost in my life
not a drop of blood on the ground side of its chest where i watched it lay down
didnt even get a punch thru on it at 45-50 yards
i think the round only one lunged him honestly
stayed out till sundown ttracking the thing, went back for 3 days
looking for buzzards
birds
ravens yotes
whatever might find it dead
never found the deer
sickening feeling
probably lived
who knows
i honestly blame it on bullet performance of that 20 ga sst round
had no shocking power behind
i would not reccomend those rounds to anyone
the hastings rounds and the rem copper solids are ones i have used with great results with hitting power wise and accuracy when using a slug gun
i have also heard some good things about brenneke slugs from people that use them
but then again
things i shoot with my tc renegade go down also
but i have also had deer out their at 125 -150
yards i wont take a shot at with it out of a sense of decency to the animal
it is basically a 100 yardish gun
but it is accurate as heck
so that is why im thinking scoped modern inline to get that extra distance in some of the places i hunt on ftcky
Shot placement and very poor at that rather than bullet failure. Had you put a 20 through vitals that deer would have been dead. Odds are you hit forward and high, and stunned the deer and never touched vitals at all. Lots of folks don't have a CLUE about where vitals REALLY are located. And thats a shame. I saw it every time I taught hunter ed, one thing was we had a deer, and vitals and bones cut out. It took a LONG time to get it all lined out right...
o jeez another expert chiming in
who was their looking over my shoulder at the shot
ya im a friggin rookie
and your an expert again
i have lost 3 deer since 1978
am 48 years old
grew up in northern maine
spent 24 plus years in the infantry
and all i do is deer hunt and turkey hunt
probably have shot upwards of 45-50 deer in my life
(and out of those only 5-6 does my entire life)
amongst other things
please tell me it possibly couldnt have been bullet failure
o wait a second
if my post count was greater
or my self perceived status was greater, then all the experts would be in complete agreement with what happened
i have forgotten more about firearms and firearm saftey and firearm useage than what you will ever aquire i would bet
mr seen it all................................................
oh did i ever mention that i was a ground bow hunter and very successful at that also
dont know where to place a shot on a deer...................................
please...........................
thanks for your internet assesment of the shot ,the round , the deer and everything else in area 50 that day it happened man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Most of it is "screw-the-other-guy" crap made up by Fudds. For instance, I present the Illinois 3-shot capacity limit. About the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Sounds good to me. Make mandatory singleshots for all I care
I agree on the mandatory single shots. But I want them as archery, not as a firearm, mandatory archery only works for me...
Oh yeah? Well, I was just kidding about the gun thing...it should really be a mandatory one spear only for deer hunting!
If you hunt Florida and Tenn....
worry about those states
Ohioans are fine with shotguns.
Muzzelloaders and bows.
If you want long range mountain hunting... go west.
I see no one from Ohio biatchin for a rifle.
Laughin....
Many hunters I know in Ohio (and I have known a [bleep] as I lived there 8 years and was stationed there another 2) go to Kentucky and PA to hunt, because of the retarded hunting regs.
Nice deflection from silly claims with zero basis in reality to "mind you're own business"....
The point being that dumbasses can do a lot more damage here than in some states - for instance Florida with it's dense vegetation vs IA with it bare dirt.
Then they have even less excuse for taking a shot with a house/car/person in the background.
Ohioans are fine with shotguns.
Muzzelloaders and bows.
I see no one from Ohio biatchin for a rifle.
Laughin....
Many hunters I know in Ohio (and I have known a [bleep] as I lived there 8 years and was stationed there another 2) go to Kentucky and PA to hunt, because of the retarded hunting regs.
Nice deflection from silly claims with zero basis in reality to "mind you're own business"....
Oh-oh! It looks like things aren't as perfect in Happy Jackass Valley as we have been led to believe!
Ohio Hunters PIZZED that they can't deer hunt with rifles! Deer hunting with rifles using pistol cartridges - bring on the debate
printable page
Submitted by cbaus on Thu, 02/23/2012 - 07:00.
Sports and Hunting
by Larry S. Moore
The Ohio Department of Natural Resources' (ODNR) Division of Wildlife is holding open house meetings in all five districts to discuss season dates and bag limits of game species, which will include Ohio's most popular game animal, the white-tailed deer. The meetings will be Saturday, March 3, from 12 � 3 p.m. and are open to the public.
For many people the open houses are an opportunity to talk with the Division of Wildlife personnel. Sadly the attendance statistics reflect that most sportsmen stay home. Is this because Ohio's sportsmen think the Division is doing exactly what they desire? Or is it that Ohio's sportsmen are just too complacent to drive a few miles to the nearest open house? Judging by the letters to the Ohio Outdoor News the concerns are well articulated and debated. Writing a letter to the editor is easy in our electronic world. Driving an hour or more for a short meeting is much more difficult. But it is making the appearance and submitting your concern directly to the Division personnel that gets things moving.
A couple of dedicated hunters have been leading the efforts to bring rifles into the toolkit for Ohio's deer hunters. Buckeye Firearms Association Minutemen Dan Allen and Aaron Kirkingburg have spent hours researching material. They have attended previous open house events, met with Division of Wildlife personnel several times in 2011 and are presenting their case to sportsmen organizations. The upcoming open houses on March 3 could be pivotal in their efforts.
The proposal is pretty simple: any cartridge currently legal to hunt with in a handgun, would be legal in a rifle. They do not want a confusing list of "rifle only" cartridges. They are not asking for any changes to the current legal handgun cartridges and they are not asking for any special season. They are also proposing that the historic black powder cartridge rifles would be legal during regular gun season. This is not to be confused with muzzleloaders and no inclusion in any of the primitive weapon seasons. Caliber requirements remain the same as pistols in that anything .357 or larger in a black powder cartridge would be legal. Typically the black powder cartridge firearms have designations such as the .45-90 cartridge. The compliance for the 3-shot rule will be to allow the use of dummy or snap cap rounds as a simple solution that does not require firearm alteration. Their proposal includes a sunset provision giving the Division of Wildlife an "out" in the future if unforeseen problems result.
About five years ago when I encountered the proposal, my first thoughts were "what" and "why". Today my thoughts are "why not?". As a veteran hunter education instructor I have the incident reports from approximately the last 20 years. I've reviewed many of them. I've not encountered any deer hunting incident where the type of firearm would have caused or prevented the incident. Quite simply, the most important factor in hunting safety is the person pulling the trigger. Unfortunately this year there have been incidents where the gun safety rule that is often repeated in hunter education classes was ignored and the results were tragic. "Know your target and beyond" should be on every hunters' mind before pulling that trigger. Regardless of the type of firearm or archery equipment being used. Period.
Indiana approved allowing rifles with pistol cartridges in 2007. A Google search turned up plenty of news articles and discussion forums about the change. I couldn't find any data to indicate problems nor safety issues with the rifle use. The deer hunting sportsmen and women of Ohio should have the opportunity to hunt Ohio deer with their choice of hunting tools. While some may not like to admit it, almost all hunting today is sport hunting. We should be able to enjoy that sport with the tools we chose.
The arguments I've heard against allowing rifle hunting in Ohio sound very much like the anti-gun people who were screaming about blood running in the streets if Ohio passed a concealed carry law. It didn't happen then. I don't think it will happen if we allow rifle hunting in Ohio. Other arguments sound very anti-hunting much like those who thought crossbows would ruin the Ohio deer herd. Well, we are all still here and the deer herd is still healthy. So goes the thinking for that which we don't like or understand. In fact, I'll go so far as to say Allen and Kirkingburg are being very conservative in their request. I don't know why we don't go ahead and allow rifle hunting for Ohio's deer. There just isn't a whole lot of difference between modern inline muzzleloaders or rifled deer slug guns with sabot technology ammo and many rifles.
What I think isn't so important. My comments are ready for the Division open house. What do you think? Do you want the opportunity to hunt with rifles that use handgun cartridges? Are you a cowboy action shooter that might like to take a deer with the rifle you use in competition? Or are you dead set against these changes and quite sure that this writer and a few others are off our rockers? Wherever you stand, do you care enough to get to the open house events and properly voice your opinion where it counts? I hope to see some of you at the District 5 open house.
Now let's get this going in Illinois and further along in Indiana.
only a retard is going to have a shot that travels beyond the line of sight.
Not a bad description of many a deer hunter.
That's true, but theoretically the dumbass factor should be roughly equivalant state to state.
The point being that dumbasses can do a lot more damage here than in some states - for instance Florida with it's dense vegetation vs IA with it bare dirt.
Brent, I drove thru Iowa last May and even bagged a turkey with my F150, but the recollection I carry is the surprise in finding Iowa is not flat. No argument about green vs dirt, there sure is a lot of Ag in your home state. Some parts of Florida are hilly as well, albeit not so pronounced as Iowa but I know more than a few places you could kill yourself with a misstep on steep slopes. Could be your image of Florida being densely vegetated is true in a lot of places, but there's many, many miles of long shots available, especially in the north and central part of the state. I have both options across the street from my house, a few feet to over 300 yards. Vast acreage in the region would support a 1,000 yard shot if one is so inclined and has access to the property.
FWIW, Florida was shotgun only state for deer/hogs until the '60s, or maybe early '70's, not sure when it changed. All I hunted back then was birds and small game so I paid no attention.
I guess we were just always stuck with this rule, so didn't really put too much thought into it. I really don't see much of a handycap from having to carry a slug gun. To be honest, most of the spots I hunt in Ohio a shotgun is just fine. I'm sure there's plenty of spots where a rifle would be better suited. All I can talk about is my own experiences. I grew up near Youngstown, right on the Pa. border. State Line Road was in our township. (Springfield Township) We'd sit stands on the first morning and then push woodlots after that. The farms are small, the woodlots interspersed with corn fields. With the quality slug guns available now, I just don't feel too strongly about the need to legalize centerfire rifles. Yeah, it's a quirky law-you can hunt with a revolver chambered for .44 mag, but don't even think about taking out that .44 mag Marlin lever gun. Doesn't make much sense, does it?
Then they have even less excuse for taking a shot with a house/car/person in the background.
No doubt, but the excuses always come later, regardless of how dumb. What's a dumb excuse going to do for a guy with a hole in house and maybe his wife?
A friend of mine has a hole in his cabin. I have had slugs winging past the house but only missing it by dumb luck. Been shot at once by a hunter gunning at a buck on the other side of my duck decoys. Dumb doesn't cut it for the guy on the other end.
This ain't rocket science.
And then there is the beanfield rifle issue, which would only serve to shorten an already too short season(s).
shot the hasting lasar accurate slugs out of it when i used after she gave up hunting
she used the hornady 250 gr sst 20 ga load
i think the round only one lunged him honestly
i honestly blame it on bullet performance of that 20 ga sst round
had no shocking power behind
Interesting, I would blame it on poor shot placement! You could have used a 10 gauge and would not have mattered.
I have killed deer with that very same round in my TC Encore to 186 yards and complete pass throughs and wide blood trails if they even run off.
I also have a HR 20 gauge slug hunter that performs the same way, so cannot be the gun either.
hmmmmmm poor shot placement
was you looking over my shoulder
hit him right behind the shoulder
and beleive it or not you was not their
just saying
Yea, got to watch those "mutant deer" that their lungs are in different places than normal deer where hits behind the shoulder, hit one lung and do not get a pass thru.
Because the folks doing the regulating....are DUMB-AZZES!!
In Virginia we have many counties that allow buckshot only & no slugs. While alleged safety is used to justify the restriction I believe tradition plays a greater part. I began deer hunting in the early 60's & there were few deer. Dogs were used to push the deer & certainly on a deer drive you don't want to have someone at ground level shooting a rifle. I did a lot of deer hunting utilizing dogs until the early 80's. Things began to change then. Larger tracks of land was lost to housing development, some hunters cared less about trespassing & road hunting, & destruction of farm roads were routine. Virginia maintains the restrictions in many counties today primarily where utilizing dogs has a heritage. There is no interest in changing the law. Counties West of the Blue Ridge & many of our Eastern & Southern border counties allow rifles.
Teaching hunter safety in Rhode Island, my teaching materials have a nice little chart of how far bullets travel. Shotgun and black powder don't travel as far. We can't shoot a gun within 500 feet of a dwelling, but I have to believe 500 feet is still in range of either. You'd have to aim it like artillery but it would still reach! I think a .22 would have better trajectory than a 12 gauge slug but we can use those for hunting small game.
If you hunt Florida and Tenn....
worry about those states
Ohioans are fine with shotguns.
Muzzelloaders and bows.
If you want long range mountain hunting... go west.
I see no one from Ohio biatchin for a rifle.
Laughin....
Many hunters I know in Ohio (and I have known a [bleep] as I lived there 8 years and was stationed there another 2) go to Kentucky and PA to hunt, because of the retarded hunting regs.
Nice deflection from silly claims with zero basis in reality to "mind you're own business"....
Good.
Keep out of Ohio!
KY and PA need more hunters like that!
Some people love to argue. It doesn't matter what its about.
Good.
Keep out of Ohio!
KY and PA need more hunters like that!
From a state that sends it's legions of dumbass drivers down south every winter, that can't drive the speed limit, you're telling me to keep out?
Just because you embarrassed yourself with some really stupid claims, doesn't make me the bad guy because I believe that hunters are personally responsible for making safe shots.
I know, I know, if you only had another nanny state union or bureaucrat to tell you how to shoot, what guns you could own and how to wipe your ass, you'd be alright.
Just another example of liberals trying to enforce their whacky ideas on everyone.
Go tell the folks n Georgia, they shouldn't hunt with shot guns.
See what reaction That will bring!
Just another example of liberals trying to enforce their whacky ideas on everyone.
Go tell the folks n Georgia, they shouldn't hunt with shot guns.
See what reaction That will bring!
Huh? Was that your child posting before?