http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/03/business/gm-suspends-production-of-chevrolet-volt.html?_r=1

G.M. Again Pauses Production of Chevy Volt
By NICK BUNKLEY
Published: March 2, 2012


DETROIT � General Motors said on Friday that it planned to halt production of the Chevrolet Volt for five weeks beginning later this month because dealers had more than they needed.
Related

The suspension, which will result in temporary layoffs for 1,300 workers at the Detroit plant that builds the Volt, is another troubling sign for the plug-in hybrid, whose sales fell short of G.M.�s targets in 2011. G.M. officials had already backed away from projections that they could sell 45,000 Volts in the United States this year, instead saying that production would match demand.

Production is scheduled to stop March 16 and resume April 23, a G.M. spokesman, Chris Lee, said. It will be the third time that Volt production has been stopped for at least a month since the car first went on sale in December 2010. G.M. tripled the plant�s production capacity during downtime last summer, and the plant was down for all of January in preparation for building a lower-emission version that is eligible for car pool lanes in California.

�Sales for the Volt in February were significantly better than January, and we anticipate that to continue,� Mr. Lee said. �We see good things in the future, but right now we had to make this adjustment.�

G.M. sold 1,023 Volts in February, up from 603 in January, on the heels of a federal investigation into the possibility that its battery pack could catch fire after a severe crash. Regulators concluded that the car was no more dangerous than a traditional gasoline-powered vehicle, though G.M. agreed to strengthen the structure around the battery.

G.M. said it had about 3,600 Volts in inventory. Last year, officials repeatedly dismissed questions about low sales numbers by saying the company could not build enough of the cars to meet demand. It ended up selling 7,671 during the year, instead of the 10,000 it had anticipated.

The halt also affects the Opel Ampera, a newer twin of the Volt that is being exported to Europe. They are the only models now built at G.M.�s Detroit-Hamtramck plant, which is preparing to add the Chevrolet Malibu later this year and the Chevrolet Impala next year.

The Volt, which costs $41,000 before a $7,500 federal tax credit for electric vehicles, has become a favorite target of conservative commentators and lawmakers, who say it is too expensive and is being artificially supported by taxpayer money.

�Even as gas prices continue to climb, President Obama�s attempt to manipulate the free market and force consumers into purchasing electric vehicles like the G.M. Volt has failed,� Representative Darrell Issa, Republican of California, said in a statement. �Now some 1,300 workers will pay the price for this misguided experiment.�

Was gonna get one of them Dolts but got me one of those Maxwell pigs you see in the Geico commercials instead, lots cheaper. Attached generators to his pinwheel gadgets so it's all wind powered. The faster you go, the more wind, the faster those things spin the generator, the faster you go. And changing Maxwells when they wear out is cheaper than changing batteries, plus there's pork chops in your future. If your power source dies while you're on the road here in farm country you can just coast to a convenient farm and negotiate for a replacement. Pork chops in your future again, unless you do a trade-in. And Maxwells don't catch fire in a crash. People do notice the odor tho... The smell of money saved?

Has anyone ever reported on how many KWH's it takes to recharge one? Without that info, it's impossible to calculate how much more an electric costs than a gas car.

here is an article on the power density of biodiesel vs battery power http://www.dieselpowermag.com/news/1109dp_renewable_diesel_vs_electric_cars/index.html

Click on the chart and you find that petroleum diesel has 6 times more energy density than a Li-ion Nano battery when operating at 20%-80% efficiency. Gasoline has 5.29 times as much energy density as the same battery. If you drop down to the NIMH battery, diesel has 66 times more energy, gasoline 55.6 times as much. When considering that we have to burn coal or natural gas to generate the electricity to charge the battery, or use a nuclear power plant or hydro electric generation, minus the transmission and conversion loss, it is more economical to use the hydrocarbon fuel directly to power our vehicles.

The volt and all electric battery powered cars are a scam.

Yes it is this goverment got you again why do you think they loan GM the cash .for the goverment car

Its a POS. The battery will take you less than 30 miles.
I just saw an email on it. I will look for it and post it.


JD338

I'm a battery guy, and believe me, the battery powered car, in most U.S. locales, is a very stupid idea.

I'd like to see the White House, Senate and Congress run on self-sustaining "green" energy. Hot air and schit may suffice....

Found it, here is the email on the Volt.


Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors.

For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.

Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.

The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.

16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.

$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.

Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg.

$3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000.

So Obama wants us to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more that 7 time as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across country!


REALLY?!



Save the money you would spend on the volt and spend it on gasoline, you will be miles aand money ahead.

JD338

They leave out the most important fee/factor: cost for "recycling"/exchange a battery that technically is NOT recycled....

You're kidding right

That old e mail has been around: I don't think any in the US pays $1.16 KWH. More like .116 KWH.

Fox should be embarassed to have run that story. $1.16 per kwh?

You believe Obama? I hope you are!

HawkI,

Spot on buddy! I think its $1k plus for a new battery.

JD338

We discussed this last week. The highest power rate in the nation is Honolulu with a rate of about .22/kwh

No, its more than that, but the real issue is that spent batteries of this type are a real PITA to get rid of and the costs associated with them are full of feel good fines to those who have to handle them. The consumer has no clue.
The idea that the materials used to make these batteries are "green", more so than lead acid, is laughable. The idea that these materials are more plentiful and cost efficient, even more so.

Then its 220 volts to charge it not 110 so run you dryer for that long there your cost. 2 times longer on 110 if made that way

savage,

I think you are right.

JD338

According to GM, you can charge the Volt in 10 hrs using a 120v outlet. Or, you can have an electrician install this 240V charger that will do it in about 4 hrs...for ONLY $1475.
VOLT CHARGER

That will decrease the life of said battery.....
Where does the power for the chargers come from?

Hell no!.........Obama can take the Chevy Volt and shove it up**********.

Obama was quoted saying, that he will buy a new Volt after he leaves office.

Then how about a brand new "2013" Volt for ya there Mr. President??

Are the metals/materials in these batteries hazardous waste that has to be stored or can the materials be seperated and recycled?

Lithium ion batteries are supposedly not really hazardous, but they aren't "recyclable". Note also they are made in third world countries without any real analysis of toxicity, so who knows?.
Nickel and other special alloys can be recycled, but are hazardous, some far more so than lead. The other environmental impact is the mining of nickel itself.

I have two liquid NiCd batteries in the retail store that no "recycler" apparently will help me with.

The whole idea of a "green" job is an excessive expenditure to dispose, "recycle" or promote fees upon those who manufacture or distribute items, period.

I wonder how much per KWH if the grid had to support the entire driving population at charging time; i.e., right now, the number of electric cars on the road is a pittance. Just thinking in the summer in our great state with all the ACs running if everyone drove an electric car, wouldn't that be a hoot?

Same argument for biodiesel. It's only relatively cheap with just a few drivers on the road. If everyone started trying to run biodiesel, what would the cost of vegetable oil go to? And side effects to other agricultural products? Ethanol shows us a mere glimpse of what it could be since it's only used as an additive.

I will ride a bicycle before I will buy a Volt.

I think Obama meant to have the car named Volk but GM made a mistake

I'll buy a gasoline/electric (via a battery) powered car when the car gets a LOT less expensive and when the battery will take the car a LOT further on a single charge than a battery will take it NOW... and when there is no "issue" when the time comes to replace the battery!!!

When (IF) that time ever comes, send me an email. Of course, by the time all of this happens, I'll probably be DEAD !~!~!

And sooooooo... in the meantime, I'll stick with gasoline powered cars in my driveway.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Chevy needs to go back to what is does best. That is building crappy cars with poor rack and pinion, lousy brakes, alternators, water pumps etc. etc. People will buy those!

The cost of electricity in the New York areas as of October 2011 was $0.191. At 16 kwh x $0.191 per kwh it costs $3.06 to charge the battery. That works out to $0.12 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery if you drive like Bolling. For others who get 35 miles per charge it works out to $0.08 per mile at New York rates or $0.05 per mile using the national average residential retail price of electricity of 11.53 cents per kilowatt-hour. That's like paying about $1.85 a gallon for gas.

Here�s where I got the 11.53 cents per kilowatt-hour from: Electricity Prices by State

I see in the April 2012 issue of Motor Trend on page 32 that SunPower is working with Nissan and Ford while SunLogic is working with GM to produce affordable home solar charging units that can provide enough power for 12,000 miles of driving a year in most locations. Honda is developing their own home solar charging units using a thin-film copper-indium-gallium-selenide (CIGS) technology that Honda says has real world performance close to that of the more expensive silicon technology. Amortizing the cost of a $10,000 solar charging unit over 5 years at 12,000 miles a year comes out to 17 cents per mile, but over the 25 year warranty the cost could be as low as 3 cents per mile.

With affordable home solar charging units, we could soon be at a tipping point where the total cost (purchase price + maintenance + fuel) of electric passenger vehicles will be less than similar gas vehicles.

If they keep working on it, someone will come up with a good, usable, affordable car. In the meantime, we need oil and that's where Obama is royally screwing us.

Don't belive it the charger about 10 grand with hook up

Don't and will never buy any GM product.

Mike

i dunno. when a civilization is coming to the end of the age of oil, all kinds of things have to be considered.

the early adopters are possibly very right, but if they are wrong, it could be very expensive for them.

it looks like we're doing all we can to keep folks driving four wheel vehicles as long as we can.

compare that to mass-transit? competing technologies are battling it out, as we move further into the post-modern era.

bicyles, anyone? sorry, i'm being overly sarcastic. personnally, i have no problem with riding donkeys, mules, and horses. but they're not really practicable.

but, magnetic fast transit, with mini-cars at the stations to drive to work, might that be feasible?

in my humble view, look at Honda, Toyota, and others and see what direction they are headed, and follow them. it's just that simple.

So I guess no one in this group of 38,000 signed up people have bought a VOLT. There is your answer OP.

I certainly agree we need much more domestic drilling for both oil and NG. We also need much better battery technology for electric cars to become practical. Many on 24hr don't like the Volt because of the government money involved. I understand that, but I look at the technology the Volt represents. It's a way to get the benefits of electric transportation most of the time, while not having to worry about limited range. What I'm really interested in is the Volt's successors that we'll see in 5 to 10 years.

[video:youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAYrsEOxqYc[/video]

true enough. we're betting the last incremental changes to assist a four-wheel economy versus or compared to a new mass-transit economy.

which is right? well, the four wheelers have won so far, after they took over the horse and buggy world.

for the future, i think all bets are off, or on.

Would be open to using one for mundane commute to work/back, if/when all of the above are addressed (cost of purchase, real operating cost, and real battery maint & recycle costs). In the mean time, thuggish .gov behavior only earns more disdain. And I'll continue to bomb the highway in a glorious V8 while a guy still can

I'll buy a Chevy Volt when one wins the Daytona 500 in record time for all 500 races.

true enough. my 3/4 ton Chevy, with a 4 bolt main, with 4 bbl.carb loves to haul a big load.

i like the idea of drilling fast, and drilling more. but, the petroleum supply is limited, unless it is increasing in supply as we speak. of course technology always comes into play, sooner or later.

while electric cars does exhibit a bit of "paradigm change" there are other factors at play.

what if in the final analysis that it turns out to be cheaper, over all, to include mass transit and local 4 wheel and bicycle transportation, for free? for free? there ain't nothing free is there?

The state of WA has it all covered. According to a short blurb in Pop. Mechanics, they're planning to install charging stations every 40 to 60 miles along I-5. The long range plan is to extend them clear to the MX border. Unfortunately, the article didn't mention where the power is supposed to come from.

Also, since the Volt only gets 25 miles/charge, stations at 40 to 60 mile intervals can leave you stranded.

Guess people still don't understand what an extended range electric car is. When the battery is discharged after 35 miles or so, the Volt runs on gas just like a regular car.

The volt has to be an OK car. Although Fox news has attacked it at every chance there was a lull when chevy announced it was going to build a plant in china. Then it was 3 weeks steady about how Chevy was giving America's top secrets in elec technology to the Chinese at Tax Payer expense. It was almost like we gave them the blueprint for the stealth bomber.
So, hey, must be something good about the car and it's future.

I wonder what it could be?

Slightly off topic but ...

Fox News does not properly investigate their stories before airing them. It doesn't help the cause.

Even with the government propping up this Government Motors turd, they can't sell them. To support GM is to support the UAW theft of the once great company at .gov gunpoint.


GM to halt Volt production for five weeks: WSJ

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/gm...wsj-2012-03-02?link=MW_story_latest_news

Really then you should run right out and buy one for the $7500 rebate.

My old '97 Escort wagon costs me 10 cents per mile when gas is $3.50. The best part is it has a range of over 400 miles per tank. I guess I won't be buying a volt any time soon.

I was thinking about getting a Volt. With gas at $3.50+ it seems worth a look.
Test drove one and overall it seemed okay. Then the salesman started talking price.
No Volt for me.

If the Chinese just buy one and reverse engineer it to discover its secrets, do they get the $7,500 Obama incentive rebate?

I doubt we'd teach them anything much. They already have 100 million elec powered scooters and cars in use in China.

BTW..saw on the news the other day...GM sold more cars in China on a rolling twelve months than in the U.S.!! YIKES

My old 1991 VW Jetta diesel, would average 50 miles to the gallon and driving a steady 60-65 mph on the Interstate I could fill the tank in Niantic, jump on I-95 and drive all day 500 miles get up in the morning and drive another 200 and still have a 100 miles in the tank, and fill up well on the Ohio Toll Road. All from a car that cost me a little over 11,000 dollars to buy 22 years ago. The 2012 models are great cars, and the difference you pay for one of those vs a volt, will have to driving 150000 miles at least before you even spend the money a Volt costs. That 10 years of driving and then some for most. And what was a bonus for me was that every not and again I would just fill it with Jet-A while on flying contracts. I use to work down in the Gulf of Mexico flying helicopters, and my base manager would come up to me and say you do some fly overs this week on my week off, and you can just pump some Jet A when ever you need it. The helicopter I was flying would burn 26 gallons per hour, and I would fly anywhere 5 to 8 hours a day most days. We had 6 helicopters at that base. I would live for fog banks off shore, I once sat watching tv for my whole shift. 14 days and then another 10 on fly over. Flew just four days that month got paid for 30 days. My kind of job.

But see, if "we" (the liberal elite) force Chevy Dolts on people there will be a spike in electricity demand and electric rates will "necessarily skyrocket" as Obama promised (May 2009). Then wind/solar generation will be competitive (never mind transmission facilities) and then can close dirty coal plants and not quite so dirty natural gas generation. We need to save the planet for the children.

Crap thinking of course, but it ties together. Just listen to Chu. Too late for Solyndra though.

I hear that, I have a track version Audi S8, it will pull full redline at over 7000 rpm on a closed circuit track. And yes I do the mundane thing, we got a Honda Fit because my wife puts at least 160 miles on her car three days a week. It saves us well over $300 a month from the SUV she was using.

Volt owner here. I've had the car since March, about 10,000 miles. Buying a Volt was a major investment but worth every penny. This is a wonderful car, the best I have ever owned. I'm not the only one who feels this way, Volt came in first place in Consumer Reports buyer satisfaction survey - beating every other car they track. It also beat every other GM car in their reliability rankings (I've had no service issues at all.)
*
The car is full of technological features, and is a lot of fun if you like voice control, bluetooth phone integration, MP3 player integration, satellite radio, GPS, OnStar, traction control, antilock brakes, etc. Don't fret about accessories - there's a separate accessory battery (just like in a normal car.) The only accessory that affects your driving range is heating/cooling.
*
It also accelerates wonderfully, and handles very well - plus driving is smoother and quieter than the finest luxury car. The best electric range I ever got was 55 miles, in good weather, moderate speeds, few stoplights. The worst was winter weather, in a hurry and driving like a maniac - I got 22 miles. Most of the time I get around 45 miles in summer, 30 in the middle of winter. A good trick in extreme temperatures is to pre-start the car while still plugged in. The car will warm up (or cool off) without draining the batteries.
*
I was lucky to find a free charger through a program with my electric utility (check with yours.) They also give me a split rate - and really cheap electricity if I charge overnight. I also charge at my local Meijers shopping center - they have a free charging station there. Plus I use the portable charging cord to charge while visiting friends' houses. A full charge is about 3 1/2 hrs, a partial charge (like when I go shopping at Meijer) is going to be an hour or so. The 110v portable cord is slower, but still worth topping off the charge whenever you can.

Just curious- how many fine luxury cars have you own that qualify you to make your comparison?

Welcome , Ma'm,

that said,....

"I was lucky to find a free charger through a program with my electric utility (check with yours.) They also give me a split rate - and really cheap electricity if I charge overnight. I also charge at my local Meijers shopping center - they have a free charging station there. Plus I use the portable charging cord to charge while visiting friends' houses. A full charge is about 3 1/2 hrs, a partial charge (like when I go shopping at Meijer) is going to be an hour or so. The 110v portable cord is slower, but still worth topping off the charge whenever you can.'

is some seriously off the wall and DELUDED text.

"Free" ?

....are you serious ?

GTC

But can it pull a boat?

Glad you like it, for all my bad-mouthing the Volt. They would've been nice when I lived in a major metro area with a short commute, but then mass transit wasn't bad. I don't see it as economically efficient as an econobox though obviously a much nicer ride.

Totally impractical where I am now, it's either perhaps a mile in town, or 80 miles to the next "big" town, or a hunting or fishing trip. And the local economy is ag which means most in the area are always hauling heavy, bulky things. It got down to 9 last night, bet that would drive your mileage down!

When you run a COAL FIRED automobile, life becomes WAY SIMPLEr

My vote is to saturate Cali with a Federal mandate of these [bleep]' "wondercars". Most there are Dems, so they will appreciate the Federal intrusion and I'd like lots of really long "110v power cords to go along with. Tell them its free and jack up some taxes.

Just reminicing for more "Grey Out" days....or maybe just acres of windmills, solar panels and other "low environmental impact" schit.

Iffin I did own one, I sure as hell wouldn't admit it here.

What's you're take, Bark?

Love them VW diesels. I was excited about the Ford Fiesta diesel in the works a couple years ago. 65 mpg sounded good to me. I guess they didn't meet EPA regs and are only sold in europe?

For a basis of comparison I hopped on fueleconomy.gov and compared the Volt to a Ford Fusion hybrid. I have a friend who has a Fusion and loves it.
According to the comparison based on 45% highway, 55% city driving, 15,000 annual miles and current fuel prices, annual fuel cost for the Volt is $1614 (premium only) and for the Fusion $1431. This assumes running the Volt on fuel only. Running the Volt on Electric only the annual cost is $648. According to the respective manufacturers websites the Volts MSRP is $31645 and the Fusions MSRP is $28775. I assume these are base model prices and with goodies added will go up a fair amount.
No real point here just food for conversation.

Are you kidding? I wouldn't buy one of those pos GM cars with YOUR money...

Don't be silly... the power comes from unicorn farts!


ML

The problem with your logic is you're only comparing the cost of electricity to gasoline and ignoring the much higher initial investment of the Volt. You would have to compare the Volt to a comparable gas vehicle, then include the higher cost of the Volt as part of the per mile cost factor within the expected life span of the battery system.

The maddening part is that every time a Dolt is sold, it's being bought with YOUR money. I couldn't care less about them otherwise.

Nor does it help when people take what's in a chain email and conclude that's what Fox News reported.

Got Faux news on right now. They are bitchin about the Volt again this morning. Same old story over and over again. Oh yes....and one of the problems is the the battery fires.....lets see "fires" lets see I think there was one....on a smashed car that sat for 20+ days.
But todays fair and balances is saying fires....in the batteries. You know...plural....sounds better. And of course they bring up the $7500 rebates which do not exist....they are credits for your taxes at year end. If you were Mitt Romney you'd save 14% x's $7500= $1050. And of course under several proposed future republican rules you could buy one in your businesses name and write the whole thing off.

And every time someone gets a home mortgage, the mortgage deduction they take every year for up to 30 years is paid for with my money!

In other words, deductions are fair if YOU receive them, but not fair is someone else receives them.

WTF?

You clearly don't understand the difference between tax deductions and tax credits.

To the OP -

Actually I think we ALL own all of them . . .

Krackhead, NHTSA (AKA the Federal Government) opened a defect investigation because of the fires, not Fox News.

GM halted production and considered a redesign of the battery packs because of NHTSA, not Fox News.

There were at least 2 fires reported by NHTSA, not Fox News, and those were under NHTSA testing. That doesn't include the alleged fires that occurred in private hands.

Stop being a retard for 3 minutes, if you can.

So tell me, do each reduce taxes owned to the Federal Government? If so, I'm picking up the tab, now aren't I?

Look what the mortgage interest deduction has done, distorted the the home market. How many "McMansions" have been built in the past 20 years that are lived in by 2 people solely for the purpose of maximizing the mortgage tax deduction?

If you're going to argue against the Volt tax credit, I'm going to lobby to take away your mortgage tax deduction because I rent. Game on.

It's a non-refundable tax credit so if you owe $7,500 or more in taxes, subtract $7,500 from the check you'd have to write otherwise. Tax rate is irrelevant. I think there's a credit for chargers too. (Effectively a rebate to people "rich" enough to owe $7,500 in tax. Now what percentage of the population has zero or nominal tax liability?)

Depreciation deduction is a whole 'nother animal. A common way to put more money into a business sector NOW is to allow capital investments to be expensed over one or a few years rather than many. Net there is no change in the deduction, just the timing. IF a business has enough income to benefit from the higher deduction in current years.

The mortgage deduction is long-standing social policy more than anything. Financing games caused the market distortion, with people mortgaging way over their heads with low rate adjustables expecting the housing value bubble (they were causing) would just keep on expanding and they could make money turning it over. Sorta like futures but a whole lot riskier, but they were too stupid/greedy to realize it.

I'm going to be nice and just say you are so out in left field, that we might not be able to pick you up with the Hubble telescope.

You honestly have no clue how large a mortgage would have to be to have the same effect on someone's taxes as a $7500 Volt tax credit. Never mind that the deduction has a debt cap anyways.

And because of AMT, it's highly unlikely that anyone that could afford that type of mortgage, would even get the pleasure of using the tax deduction, unlike the crackhead down the street who can use a $7500 tax credit, even if they didn't pay much more than that in taxes in the first place.

And who is the intellectual retard who told you that McMasions sprouted up in the past 20 years because of the mortgage interest deduction? Please tell me you heard that from a drunk and didn't think that up all by yourself.

Because of interest rates the past decade, the effect of the mortgage interest deduction is almost negligible in relation to the average person's tax bill as opposed to the effect it had 25+ years ago. No one ran out and bought McMansions in the past 20 years because of something that has existed for 99 years. They built McMansions because of low interest rates allowing them to build more house for less money.

A tax credit doesn't do away with the tax owed. You still have to pay that tax, it's now you can pay it in pieces over an extended time.

I got the 7500 credit for my house when I bought it. I now pay that back 500 bucks a year.

My tax credit is paid for by ME not by you.

There is a difference I believe in these green tax credits (like the Volt), and the first time home buyer etc., tax credits.

The Volt tax credit or solar tax credits get lopped off your taxes owed. The are a net effect. Deductions on the other hand, like the interest deduction reduces your effective income, not your tax owed. Therefore it is only worth (usually) like 25% of what a tax credit is, and that's if you get to use it all after AMT hits you.

How many Volts have been sold? Around 7000 at last count.

How many here take a deduction for your mortgage?

It's time for the mortgage interest deduction to go away because I'm tired of paying for it.

See what happens when you complain about one person's deduction?

You don't pay for the mortgage deduction.

Stop trying to compare an apple to a road apple.

He doesn't. He's a democrap..

So it's not really a tax credit then?

The very word "credit" implies a debt still owed.

Every tax credit I've seen works this way. Now, I can see the government playing.g the shell game here with the tax code and semantics. That wouldn't be beyond them.

Still, either it's a credit or it's not.

Simple question - does your mortgage deduction reduce the amount of your income subject to tax? Yes or No

Read what I wrote, again.

Where did I complain about anybody's deduction?

I only explained what a credit was...

No, I've taken solar credits the past 3 years. They get lopped right off my effective tax (owed). I don't have to pay it back in any way, unlike the first time home buyer credit. And unlike my mortgage deduction, they hit your tax bill directly, not indirectly like a deduction.

Someone here with serious tax experience can probably shed better light on the difference between those two, as I haven't dealt with the home buyer credit, I just recognize what you were describing.

Sounds to me then, that solar tax credits are in fact deductions and not credits...

Interesting! Yeah, I'd like to get the take of a tax attorney or CPA on how that all works...

Each tax credit stands on its own and has its own rules. You have to check each one. I have no idea if there is a carryover provision for the Volt.

Deductions apply BEFORE the adjusted gross income line. Credits are applied AFTER you look up tax owed in the tables.

Deductions reduce taxable income.
Tax credits are a credit towards taxes owed.

Easiest way to think about it.

Why they set up the home buyer tax credit with a payback provision, I don't know. Probably because the Dem's wanted to structure it where the middle class didn't get as much value from it as deadbeats aka dem voters.

Maybe, unless you've got a big nut or enough to itemize you could be further ahead taking the standard deduction. So to figure how much that deduction is worth you have to subtract the standard deduction from itemized, reduce by the effective tax rate, and reduce proportionately to account for other itemized deductions. Often as much shrinkage as a guy gets ice fishing when its 20 below.

Guys:

I just read Ankaka's posts. She's got 9 of them.

Read them and tell me if he/she sounds like a real person.

Also, check out the link in her signature line.

- Tom

I'm an electrical engineer, but don't pretend to be an expert on electric cars. I do have several first hand comments. GE is working very hard on both fast charging systems & batteries. I merged my small electrical design business a few years ago with a much larger firm. We were offered the possibility of representing the GE charging systems in our area. They are in final design of both residential & commercial 220v. charging systems. The government claims that charging will occur during off peak times & does not require the serving utility to increase power production or the home owner to increase their service. My engineering review led me to believe that this was based on flawed opinions. Fast chargers are going to draw a lot of power (amps) & most owners do not want to be limited in the hours they can recharge. I estimated installation of a new service panel & installation of the charger to be $1000-1200 plus the cost of the charger. Most electric cars come with a charger, but the cost is still there. My second comment involves a possible safety issue. I do some part time work as a security guard at government installations. At a parking lot packed with cars I noticed a Volt traveling through multiple lanes at a high rate of speed & doing radical cornering. When the Volt stopped in front of the building a young PHD working for a government agency was testing for a reported wheel falling off. Obviously, I took action since this was not the area to test a car for a potential wheel problem. There must have been some safety issue to justify what they contended was a need for an immediate test. Electric cars will possibly be justifiable some day, but at this time its just another waste of investment.

the last cold spell here in fairbanks........killed off the toyoda pris's in town. check them off the list to...

"this was based on flawed opinions"

Yeah, sounds fishy even if you throw in smart grid. What a retrofit that would be though power factor correction would be nice. Long ago when I had some involvement power companies were pushing off-peak commercial contracts and residential demand control, wonder how much off-peak is left.

Transmission could be a bigger problem, as I understand it most facilities are running about design limits now. Still waiting for long promised decentralized generation. Last I heard natural gas neighborhood fuel cells were just around the corner. Supposed to happen Real Soon Now.

Spent time researching...you are 100% correct ..I was wrong.

Yeah, it's confusing as hell to everyone, and I spent a lot of time studying taxes in school.

It also assumes a battery accepts that "fast charge" in a linear fashion and any idea of solar or wind energy being constant in rate to replace the convenience of what we are used to is silly.

The Mars Rover had issues with what???