http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/21420546/silverdale-tatum

No. He was given instructions multiple times to put his hands behind his back. The officers used force, backed off, gave commands and re-engaged. The suspect could have complied multiple times, he chose not to.

I am sure someone will make the argument that he was not attacking the officers so force was not justified. By that theory anyone could avoid going to jail just by arguing.

The reality is force never looks good, but in this case it was the bad guy who determined the level and duration of force.

I think those cops better start carrying ball bats. And they were just attempting to set his broken leg.

"We counted at least 200 blows, 200 individual blows," says Tatum's attorney, Robin Flores. "They were dragging him by his broken leg."

Looks good.

The force was appeared excessive because the individual refused to comply. Nothing here is outside reason. Once force is used it must be continued until the subject complies.

Since the officers had no cause to escalate the the next step of their use of force continuum (I.E. shoot the dumb [bleep]) they have no choice but to escalate the intensity of the level they are at.

The individual will take the cuffs, failure to comply IS NOT AN OPTION!

I have not watched the video, but from my years in Corrections I know that hundreds of blows are usually a sign the officers lack the skills to subdue suspects.

And you know perfectly well that when that started going bad there would be far more than just two officers piled on him. In my place there would be at least 5 in two minutes or less. When an individual goes to that level (usually under drugs or a mental health condition) they can be extremely strong.

Yes.. it was such a standard use of force that both officers were fired.

Its sad two cops can't subdue him. I watched most of the video. From what I saw he disobeyed a lawful order, resisted arrest, and actually made an attempt to kick the officer (battery) 2 possibly 3 times? The use of force appeared to be necessary and lawful up until he was against the wall then it appeared to be unlawful use of force. If the suspect was actively trying to grab or pull the Officer then game on but while he was sitting and verbal not complying I personally would not advise striking him with the baton?

Everyone to their own opinion...

I think he got what he deserved!

Just my .02

Any highschool wrestler could of controlled this guy and cuffed him inside of 30 seconds.

These cops are clearly incompetent and should be removed from the force, and their supervisors should be prosecuted. Neither officer has even rudimentary hand skills, and holding a guys hands in front of him while you beat his is not a good way to get him to but his hands behind his back. Any cop who can't roll onto his stomach a guy who weighs 100 pounds less then him, with a broken leg, is in the wrong profession.

Yes he got what he deserved! Do I feel bad for him, No not really? The question was, is it excessive force? In my opinion yes it was! It appeared the one police officer was getting frustrated and it is psychologically defeating when you are not getting compliance but the areas the officer struck, the amount, and how it was done was incorrectly administered. Just my opinion.

how much pay would you require to get him cuffed without batting him? Would you just stay with him a few days until he went to sleep and then cuff him? You want to wrestle with him a while to get him cuffed and have the crap bitten out of you?

No excessive force was used. Prick didn't comply.

Me too, appears the idiot had trouble hearing, [bleep] him.

Gunner

No love loss for the suspect. He was putting up a fight.

I've got one word for those officers. If they learn it, they can spare themselves and their suspects a whole lot of pain...


LEVERAGE!

These cops are typical morons, just looking for an opportunity to beat someone up. Three huge cops couldn't get handcuffs on one small guy without beating the crap out of him - especially when the guy was up against the wall. It is very clear these cops really wanted to beat this guy up more than subdue him. So, if a female refuses to comply you beat her the same way just because she refuses or do you take charge and subdue her? This guy was on the floor and the cops were in little danger. I think those that think this beating was justified would be singing a different story is the guy being beat up was their son or daughter.

Also, there were apparently about 7 other cops in the vincinty and that many more showed up. Rather than beat the crap out of the guy, why not just use more folks to get handcuffs on him. Glad these guys lost their jobs, they don't deserve to serve the public.

If it had been me, I would have laid that baton across the bridge of his nose about eye level and he could have spent the night drinking blood.

Like I say, feel free to let him chew on your arm.

What I don't understand is why the whole time I worked in the acute unit of a psychiatric hospital as a psychiatric attendant (fancy term for the ward muscle) we never once came in need of blunt instruments for beating unruly and uncooperative nutcases (some of whom were very powerfully built, one in particular I remember looked like your typical MMA fighter), nor for Tasers. We knew how to take them down and restrain them, and how to escort them to their rooms, or put them into their straps, when need be. Simple Jiu-Jitsu type methods were used. No strikes or chokes of any kind were allowed. How is it possible that a roid head like that huge cop, with the help of one partner, could not have had that guy tied in whatever sort of knot he wanted him in, and in the cuffs, in a matter of a few seconds? If I could do it, why can't they?

Man, that guy must have been on something to take that kind of abuse w/o complying. He is one slow thinking dude. The cops are incompetent. Any woman trained to an average level could have controlled that guy. They should have been fired, he was no danger to them, he was out of it, seemed drunk, drugged or lethargic.

I guess, two big ol gorillas like that couldn't get the cuffs on that guy unless he helped them?

Exactly.

those cops are clearly incompetent.
just imagine what would have happened to them if the suspect had any weapon at all.

Stupid [bleep] was drugged out of his gourd! to be able to take that level of pain and for a taser not to work on him he was on some mighty fine stuff.

He got exactly what he deserved.

They would have had to shoot him....problem solved.

I've dealt with worse than that guy, with less backup, completely unarmed, choke holds and strikes prohibited, and never any broken bones. That cop bludgeoned that guy because he could, not because he needed to.

That was an azz whopping right there. I'da given up long before that
I suggest those troopers get some ground game training. And better mic clips.

No sympathy for the druggie here, but seems like completely ineffective handling of him, by the officers.

Maybe you should read the article which accompanies the video. Mr, Tatum is a federal inmate (on release), who refused to take the drug test because he admitted to being "high on cocaine". He is reported to have been armed with a knife. He asked to visit a relative, but had a hidden motive of confronting (read stabbing) another inmate. When he was unable to get his way, he began trying to kick in the door.

As to the issue of the officers being "incompetent" , I would guess that you have never had to wrestle one of these wiry little suckers. When a subject is in excited delirium, they do not become exhausted or feel pain, at all. Sober police officers do. Oh, he will certainly feel the pain and regret his actions tomorrow when he wakes up with a hangover, but he is not feeling it during this action.

Of course if you were a high school wrestler 20 years ago, you could have taken this guy in 10 seconds. I do have to wonder how many of the teenage boys you wrestled were high on cocaine and reported to be armed with a knife? I also wonder where that darned referee went, I don't see him in the video at all. Shouldn't the referee have stopped the fight when the suspecxt starts kicking and biting? The average high school wrestler also gets about 10 to 20 times as much training as the average cop. Training is time consuming and expensive, as is typically designed solely to produce a piece of paper (certificate) that protects the Chief from criticism and liability.

In the real world, when the fighting starts, someone is getting hurt. It would be great if this was not neccessary, but that is a fantasy. I have been to at least a hundred of these fracass in the last 30 some years, as a participant and as a supervisor. I can tell you that nobody who has done it much really wants to do it again, because once the fighting starts, someone is going to get hurt. They are chaotic and unpredictable, and you just never know when someone else is going to jump in on your back and start trying to pull your gun out and kill you. I'll bet you a quarter that never happened tp you in high school.

I will note that there should have been a supervisor on the scene. I found that it does help to have someone organize things, take control. I the middle of the mess, your mind can sort of go blank so that you are reacting rather than thinking and planning. A respected supervisor telling people what to do can make a real difference.

The cop "bludgeoned" the guy because he didn't comply and was a danger to everyone else there.

When your drugged up like that you have a very high pain level and are super human in strength.

armchair hindsight is 20-20, but its pretty clear from the get-go that the bigger cop who wrapped up on him first just flat out screwed it up in the first 7 seconds. choke hold, on top, on the ground, with partner then joining. C'mon.

after that, its a mess, the big juice heads got tired, and the inmate was clearly defiant. Wrestling around on the ground at that point? Eff that. biting, sweaet, blood, hands close, weapon... hell no.

"The individual will take the cuffs, failure to comply IS NOT AN OPTION!"

I'm not defending this guy but when someone gets you in a choke hold your instincts kick in and you're going to fight to breath. If someone is hitting you (for whatever reason) your natural instinct is to protect yourself with your arms and hands, not put them behind your back.

They all got what they deserved!

A good beating for being stupid, and fired for being stupid plus incompetant.

They know that. Compliance isn't the goal. The goal is to deliver pain and injury, and to use their authority as an excuse for same. Otherwise, how explain that I and other psychiatric attendants subdued folks like this routinely without breaking bones, choking them out, or Tasering them? I never once got bit, either.

White trash at work.

Those guards are sadistic maniacs.

Clearly excessive force. Questions on whether he deserved it or not should not come into the conversation. I expect those in authority position to be the good guys.

I may need to be straightened out on this, and I mean no disrespect to any member specifically, but I personally don't view cops as the good guys. Flame suit on.

They are, first and foremost, agents of the state. Once you properly understand the nature of the state being that of a criminal organization writ large and bent on fleecing the majority for the criminal benefit of an insider elite, then you understand the nature of its agents also. That doesn't mean each individual agent is evil or necessarily criminal in intention, either. Many are merely deluded as to the core nature of the agency they serve. I'm certain many Mafia capos and "soldiers" are convinced that, when all is said and done, they're serving a just cause, too.

I was wondering what town has that many bald fat white guys.

It takes a real low life to make you feel for the crackhead, these jackass' were able to pull that off.

Ah, yes, the usual suspects have spoken.
Odviously we have some self styled experts here who have never made any arrests on drugged up, resisting suspects. Even some who claim that such levels of force are never necessary. That's because he's worked in a psych ward and has subdued many a noncompliant subjects, etc. That's really funny. Psych ward patients are usually drugged with stuff that makes them easy to handle, not the other way around. And they are not armed, etc.
Then we have the wrestling experts. More nonsense.
The truth is that every situation is different. Anybody that has made alot of violent arrests knows that. Some people are able to endure alot of pain and force. No two arrestees are the same. The cops involved also often have different concerns or present abilities which can vary from day to day.
This is why the legal defination of use of force says only that the police may use whatever is necessary to overcome the subject's resistance. Until he is subdued, the level of force is not excessive. Put another way, if the cop uses tactics that don't work, as it appears in this case, it is still not sufficient. That much is odvious.
You want to critize these guys fine. Punish them for not doing what you think you should have seen or not seen w/o proof that the subject had stopped resisting, and you open the door to not allowing the cops to use force to overcome resistance. When that happens, nobody who does any crime will not get arrested if they resist. That's because nobody in law enforcement will risk loosing his job because somebody didn't like what he did or how he did it.
I can name two cities in Kalifornia that are paying that price now for their attitudes towards such things. I can name a couple of cops that went to prison over nonsense like this.
When I was growing up, nobody was interested in carrying concealed. Now there is alot of interest, and 41 states that allow concealed carry. Why ? Because the cops aren't doing their jobs. All because of nit picking and political correctness as typical in this discussion. If you insist on holding them to a standard to which none can comply, you don't get the job done.
That, BTW, doesn't help much. Ask a a guy named Zimmerman what happend when he tried fill in for the cops. Cops who didn't come when he reported suspicious activity. E

I'd like to beat you in the shins with a bat while telling you to put your hands behind your back and see how long it takes you to comply. On the other hand maybe you have no innate human behavior, and comply with any govt. order.

So they got fired for doing the job.

So.

Unless ...he got them first.

This one really did make me laugh.
What a moron. Armchair quarterbacks know it all, just ask them.