I wasn't aware that eastern diamondback bites were lethal, but it;s an interesting story.
http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/nature/post/hunter-saves-own-life-after-rattlesnake-bite/
Just read the article before I saw it posted it here. In 1973 a friend was bitten just like that, close to the same place, turned smut black, swelled three times it's normal size and was eventually amputated.
Was not a pleasant sight.
Another friend was bitten on the thumb by a small one in 71, was allergic to the anti venom and stayed in the hospital for two weeks.
Rattlers aren't a thing to mess with if you don't have to.
I have one of those in my rafting first aid kit. Haven't and hope to never to use it.
easterns are nasty ones to get bit by, alot of neurotoxin in the venom......however that snake bite kit likely did lil and he actually received a minor bite that didnt inject much venom....think about it, put one of those on your arm after getting a shot at the docs office and its not gonna pull much of anything out....all a rattlesnake fang is, is a hypodermic needle....at most you will get a couple drops out and thats not gonna affect the outcome one bit.....
Anybody remember when they used to say to shock a snakebite with a car battery or a stun gun? I've never been bit but always wondered if that really works. They claimed the electricity breaks up the proteins in the venom.
there is anecdotal evidence that it does work.....i have a hard time understanding why it would work unless the proteins that make up snake venom are unstable as hell and far more easily degraded than the proteins that make up human tissue....
there is anecdotal evidence that it does work.....i have a hard time understanding why it would work unless the proteins that make up snake venom are unstable as hell and far more easily degraded than the proteins that make up human tissue....
That's a great point.
my whole thinking could be off but im very interested in snakes, especially venomous ones and have read a fair number of scientific studies.....havent seen a good explanation of why it would work, but if i were to get bit someplace where getting to antivenin in time is in question and a stun gun is handy, light my arse up....
Me too. I hunt quite a bit in south Georgia where Eastern diamondbacks are as thick as mosquitoes and I keep a stun gun in my pack just in case but have never had to test the theory out.
there is anecdotal evidence that it does work.....i have a hard time understanding why it would work unless the proteins that make up snake venom are unstable as hell and far more easily degraded than the proteins that make up human tissue....
a few years ago I got bit by a Hobo Spider and I tried it, using the coil off my old car and it seemed to work, but I too don't understand how it worked for the very reason you stated
It should be easy enough to determine if the proteins in snake venom are denatured that easily. I think that if this was the case, we would hear it a lot more often. I just hope I never get bit by one of the suckers.
We don't have hobo spiders here but I understand they are nasty. We do have brown recluse spiders, my dad had a coworker who lost half his hand to a brown recluse that was in his glove when he put it on. We also have tons of black widows but the brown recluse concern me much more than the widows.
Far as I'm concerned any rattler I run in to is treated like he can kill my ass and is treated like he plans to. There is a saying out west - if it don't get you then one of its kids will.
The fear of rattlers caused many a cowboy to pray each night they rolled out their bedroll while out on the range. They scoured the area around camp at dusk to reduce the chance of a bedroll encounter at dawn and spent,any hours of life trying to determine a method of securing a safe place to sleep. This led to lots of money having been spent on horse hair ropes to lay around the bedding.
Evidently, there were many more rattlers in many areas of the west a hundred years ago than now.
We don't have hobo spiders here but I understand they are nasty. We do have brown recluse spiders, my dad had a coworker who lost half his hand to a brown recluse that was in his glove when he put it on. We also have tons of black widows but the brown recluse concern me much more than the widows.
We don't have hobo spiders here but I understand they are nasty. We do have brown recluse spiders, my dad had a coworker who lost half his hand to a brown recluse that was in his glove when he put it on. We also have tons of black widows but the brown recluse concern me much more than the widows.
Except if a black widow bites, you may pray to die due to the agony.
We don't have hobo spiders here but I understand they are nasty. We do have brown recluse spiders, my dad had a coworker who lost half his hand to a brown recluse that was in his glove when he put it on. We also have tons of black widows but the brown recluse concern me much more than the widows.
Except if a black widow bites, you may pray to die due to the agony.
the Hobo's are very similar to brown, and I have been bitten 4 or 5 times in the last few years. They form nasty sores that take weeks to heal, I have killed 4 in my house so far this spring. The bad part about them is they are aggressive due to poor eye sight. Black widows will prey on hobo's but then you have black widows
We don't have hobo spiders here but I understand they are nasty. We do have brown recluse spiders, my dad had a coworker who lost half his hand to a brown recluse that was in his glove when he put it on. We also have tons of black widows but the brown recluse concern me much more than the widows.
We don't have hobo spiders here but I understand they are nasty. We do have brown recluse spiders, my dad had a coworker who lost half his hand to a brown recluse that was in his glove when he put it on. We also have tons of black widows but the brown recluse concern me much more than the widows.
Except if a black widow bites, you may pray to die due to the agony.
black widow venom is interesting stuff, causes every skeletal muscle in your body to form a "Charley horse", highly unlikely to kill most people but for 24-48 hours your gonna wish you were gonna die soon....
recluse venom is just plain nasty chit.....ild rather take a hit from a good size rattler than a recluse....
We don't have hobo spiders here but I understand they are nasty. We do have brown recluse spiders, my dad had a coworker who lost half his hand to a brown recluse that was in his glove when he put it on. We also have tons of black widows but the brown recluse concern me much more than the widows.
We don't have hobo spiders here but I understand they are nasty. We do have brown recluse spiders, my dad had a coworker who lost half his hand to a brown recluse that was in his glove when he put it on. We also have tons of black widows but the brown recluse concern me much more than the widows.
Except if a black widow bites, you may pray to die due to the agony.
I know their bites are painful but at least they are shy and stay in their webs. I kill a bunch of them every year, one of my kids favorite activities is when we go "Black Widow Hunting" and turn up stones, the fire wood in the woodpile, etc in the yard and kill them. The brown recluse wander and get in the house and you never know where you'll run into them. I hate and fear the brown recluse spiders, we have to shake our shoes, gloves, and jackets because of them. Nasty little buggers.
Groups like the AMA, etc. now recommend you don't use those snake bite kits. Instead, get thee to a doctor pronto. Their reasoning is that people have done more damage to themselves using the kits than the venom will do. Here's an article from the Wall Street Journal about it.
SNAKE BITE KIT Of course there are exceptions to every rule. 1000 people can be saved by seat belts but the one you hear about is the guy who is saved because he didn't wear one. The same likely applies to snake bit kits.
Worked with a lady a few years back that lost her entire calf muscle to a brown recluse bite. She was in western NC cleaning her grandmother's closet out and was bitten. She did not think much of it at the time and then when she went to the hospital the doc said it was unlikely that it was a brown since we live kinda of on the edge of their territory. Ten years later she still limps and her leg is misshapen. Nasty.
My sister was biten by a brown recluse, while cleaning out a closet in an apartment she was moving in, on a finger.
About 3 weeks later, they wound up scraping the bone and removing all the dead tissue. Now that finger is basically useless, but unless you look close, its not noticeable.
my whole thinking could be off but im very interested in snakes, especially venomous ones and have read a fair number of scientific studies.....havent seen a good explanation of why it would work, but if i were to get bit someplace where getting to antivenin in time is in question and a stun gun is handy, light my arse up....
I believe its been fairly well researched but I don't know of any studies that support electric shock treatment as an anti venom.
I tend to think that it more likely that the strikes where it appears to work are instances where the snake doesn't actually inject venom for what ever reason..
Me too. I hunt quite a bit in south Georgia where Eastern diamondbacks are as thick as mosquitoes and I keep a stun gun in my pack just in case but have never had to test the theory out.
Some Vets did a test on this and found that the stun gun had no effect on the molecular composition of the venom. The anecdotal reports of success likely come from treating "dry" bites. I hate snakes, btw.
(Looks like Pete beat me to the same conclusion)
Remember the old snake bite kits that had the little scalpal blade and suction cups? You were suppose to make an "X" cut across the fang marks then use the suction cups to pull out the venom.
I believe THOSE were indeed declared to cause more harm than good. I occassionally still see some around at flea markets etc.
I've read enough to try 2 things.
An extractor. Hypo syringe with a suction cup that provides pressure and not just the dingy little rubber cup things that used to be around housing the rest of the kit. Don't cut. Just apply and pull back and hold pressure.
Cold doesn't really hurt anything from my training and the combo may slow things down some. Which never hurts.
From what I"ve heard if you are 3 hours or less from medical, then thigns should end up ok.
Last thing... the electric shock. I"ve read of how it works ALL over the world. SO much so that regardless of if its proven or not, it would be worht the shock from DC voltage. Its generally not like that will kill you anyway....
And if it doesn't hurt, but doesn't help, then you've not moved into the negative category and had the chance of moving forward...
I have read( for what that is worth) that snakes have the capability to limit the amount of venom they inject during a bite. They do this as to not use up the venom when it is needed for a kill. Many defensive bites are just that. This may be the reason the guy did not have such a severe reaction.
Had a friend down in NM that his brother was riding along the bottom of an arroyo and a rattler stuck out at him from the top and bit him in the neck. He died within a short period of time.
Current thinking on suction, bad cause it concentrates the venmin the area, more likely to kill the tissue in that small area (from a study done on live pigs)
Cold not good, due to possible frostbite, also slows down circulation and lymphatic system, again concentrating venom in area.
IF the snake hits a vein (leading to heart), you may be cooked anyway.
Medical care asap is the way to go, the new high dollar polyvalent anti-venin (Cro-Fab), and supportive care if needed, are what saves tissues, limbs, and lives. It's made from sheep now, which gets around a somewhat common horse allergy from the old stuff.
Sycamore
I don't think there is a universal "best" approach to Snakebite first aid, as there are numerous types of venom that attack the body in different ways.
I think the best thing a person can do is read up on the snakes they are mostly likely to encounter in their own locality, and the seek specific information for dealing with them..
10-4, I was speaking of envenomation by North American Crotalids.
On the other hand, prompt removal to definitive medical care and the proper anti-venin is NEVER a bad choice.
With elapid envenomation, one might see the use of a pressure bandage, if the venom was clearly neurotoxic, rather than cyto- or hemo-toxic. (haemo to you!)
Sycamore
The gentleman that was bitten is a close friend on one of my hunting club members. He usually wears snakeboots, but could not find them that morning and put on Muck Boots. The bite was by a very large Timber Rattler. The strike went right through his pants and Muck Boots. Fortunately, he was only 30 minutes from the hospital and is now out and doing well. Be assured, I was wearing my snake boots in the turkey woods last week and on guard.
10-4, I was speaking of envenomation by North American Crotalids.
On the other hand, prompt removal to definitive medical care and the proper anti-venin is NEVER a bad choice.
With elapid envenomation, one might see the use of a pressure bandage, if the venom was clearly neurotoxic, rather than cyto- or hemo-toxic. (haemo to you!)
Sycamore
Agreed on the need for prompt medical attention..
Do venomous snakes in the US belong to the pit viper family?
Luckily we only have one venomous snake in the UK (the European Adder) and that is only very mildly venomous so its bite doesn't really pose any danger unless you happen to be allergic to it..
10-4, I was speaking of envenomation by North American Crotalids.
On the other hand, prompt removal to definitive medical care and the proper anti-venin is NEVER a bad choice.
With elapid envenomation, one might see the use of a pressure bandage, if the venom was clearly neurotoxic, rather than cyto- or hemo-toxic. (haemo to you!)
Sycamore
Agreed on the need for prompt medical attention..
Do venomous snakes in the US belong to the pit viper family?
Luckily we only have one venomous snake in the UK (the European Adder) and that is only very mildly venomous so its bite doesn't really pose any danger unless you happen to be allergic to it..
Yes, they are pit vipers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rattlesnake
With the exception of the Mojave line, rattlers in the US are packing hemotoxins (sp ?) causing necrosis and may also affect blood clotting. The Mojave boys have some neurotoxin effects.
I've been told there is a vaccine for dogs for rattlesnake venom. It's suggested for quail dogs, that are likely to get hit by them. Supposedly builds up the immune system's response to the venom. Never heard of anything like it for people, though.
I read the link about using cortisone to treat spider bites.
Does anyone know if there has been any tests or studies about using the same method for snake bite?
I know spider venom is very toxic. Have there ever been any studies comparing spider venom to snake venom, like is it the same chemical content, or has other elements that make it so toxic?
A spider injects a very small amount of venom, as compared to the amount of venom from a large venomous snake.
I'm glad he is going to be OK, but I have serious doubts that the "snake bite kit" had any effect at all on his recovery. Rattlers are certainly venomus, but very few, if any healty adults that get to a hospital within an hour die.
I have read black widow venom is neurotoxic, like cobra venom.
Current thinking on suction, bad cause it concentrates the venmin the area, more likely to kill the tissue in that small area (from a study done on live pigs)
Cold not good, due to possible frostbite, also slows down circulation and lymphatic system, again concentrating venom in area.
IF the snake hits a vein (leading to heart), you may be cooked anyway.
Medical care asap is the way to go, the new high dollar polyvalent anti-venin (Cro-Fab), and supportive care if needed, are what saves tissues, limbs, and lives. It's made from sheep now, which gets around a somewhat common horse allergy from the old stuff.
Sycamore
Interesting, my last EMR course said suction still ok, and cold ok, but not frostbite( I question how the hell could anyone put enough ice on to frostbite and area without knowing it anyway, definitely nothing a responder would do) Of course that was June of 2012 so the data we had is almost a year old already.
i was helping Dr Morris work some cattle when i was in high school. he was the local Vet anyway he got bit by a rattler so he went and sat on his tail gate for about an hr and drank some ice tea. he then went back to work. he was a huge man around 6.7 and 300+#s but i think he had been injecting himself with venom over the yrs building up an immunity.
I wasn't aware that eastern diamondback bites were lethal...
ALL snakes in the eastern U.S. are potentially lethal - ALL of them, pit-vipers or not! 'Cause they'll cause you to run into schit or leap into parts unknown......
for the life of me, I don't know how you gents live in such dangerous territory
I'll take bears and skeeters thank you
I have spent the last few years working up a resistance to iocane powder...
I guess it's possible with snake venom.
Groups like the AMA, etc. now recommend you don't use those snake bite kits. Instead, get thee to a doctor pronto. Their reasoning is that people have done more damage to themselves using the kits than the venom will do. Here's an article from the Wall Street Journal about it.
SNAKE BITE KIT Of course there are exceptions to every rule. 1000 people can be saved by seat belts but the one you hear about is the guy who is saved because he didn't wear one. The same likely applies to snake bit kits.
I studied up on this a bit when a friend got bitten by a rattler under his beach house in Gulf Shores...he had a toxic reaction to the antivenin, went into heart failure and spent a week in hospital and another month wearing a heart monitor.
they told him next time....it's gonna be like the old cowboy joke.."you're gonna die". He may have some immunity to the venom now, but another shot of anitvenin will kill him deader than Caesar.
The snake doctor said those kits are at best ineffective and may make things worse. Ice and antivenin is the trick to minimize tissue damage.
OK I'm spraying the house down with Raid.
for the life of me, I don't know how you gents live in such dangerous territory
I'll take bears and skeeters thank you
Randy, we live here because snakes and spiders won't eat you after they've bitten you.
Ed
easterns are nasty ones to get bit by, alot of neurotoxin in the venom...
I think that pit viper venom is more cytotoxic and hemotoxic....they require a different antivenom than
coral snakes which have a neruotoxic venom.....
Most venomous snakes in the US are vipers with predominately hemotoxic venom and hinged fangs.
We do have several types of coral snakes in North America that are elapids (same Family as the cobras, kraits, mambas). They have predominately neurotoxic venom and fixed fangs. They are not seen as often as the vipers, but getting bitten by one is a very serious medical problem.
i hate it when i have to step away during these kinds of threads, wife had surgery today, minor surgery, same as cataract surgery but she doesnt have cataracts, she is fine this was the option when your eyes are to bad for Lasik....
anyways....clearing up some confusion since i left
on what snakes have what kind of venom its rare to find a snake with just one type of venom, most have a highly complex cocktail of the different types, the primary ones with mainly neurotoxin, or a significant portion of neuro in the US are coral snakes, mohave greens, the southern pacific complex and eastern diamondback.....a sure sign the snake that bit yah is a eastern diamondback bit yah is the facial hairs start doing a rhythmic circular pulsing because of the neurotoxin component and temporary limb paralysis is common....
back to the shocking, i would say if your within 3 hours of help in the US DO NOT do it, cause one thing for sure its likely to send your pulse racing and that alone is reason enough not to do it....its gonna spread the venom faster....
on the dog "vaccine" UtahLefty and i have discussed this heavily case for one he is a vet and for 2 he is interested in reptiles.....the vaccine as it is given out now works best with small breeds.....if yah got a large hunting dog it has limited effectiveness if you follow the current recommended dosing, HOWEVER if you can find a vet that truly understands whats going on in the whole process you can make it much more effective for larger dogs but giving them more shots than is recommended....
unfortunately the way its done at the moment its set up for the safety of the smaller dogs which means the bigger dogs dont get a large enough dose to make it extremely effective, and this is why some people are saying its not very effective....find a vet that understands what the "vaccine" is actually doing and shell out for about twice the number of shots as is recommended and it will be very effective for larger dogs....esentially your doing the same thing to a dog that Bill Hasst did to himself....
oh forgot one other fact, up to 1/3 of pit viper bites are "dry bites" that do not inject venom, venom is "expensive" to produce, very energy demanding so if a snake thinks it can get away with it it wont inject in alot of defensive bites.....this further adds complications when saying the electric shock works.....if everyone does it immediately after rattler bites 1/3 of the people that dont know any better are gonna say it works when they got no venom to start with....
oh forgot one other fact, up to 1/3 of pit viper bites are "dry bites" that do not inject venom, venom is "expensive" to produce, very energy demanding so if a snake thinks it can get away with it it wont inject in alot of defensive bites.....this further adds complications when saying the electric shock works.....if everyone does it immediately after rattler bites 1/3 of the people that dont know any better are gonna say it works when they got no venom to start with....
Damn it. Don't tell people that. I was just gonna sell them snake oil to wipe on a bite. I would tell them it works 2/3's of the time on snake bites.
As "Rattler" said most snake bites are dry. What you really have to worry about is infection. Snakes carry all kinds of crap in there mouth and two deep puncture wounds are hard to irrigate.
I have seen studies that showed that some snakebites are dry, but I don't think I have ever seen anything that showed that "most" snakebites are dry.
I have seen studies that showed that some snakebites are dry, but I don't think I have ever seen anything that showed that "most" snakebites are dry.
they figure bout 1/3 of pit viper bites in the US are dry.....but it is pretty species dependent....never heard of a dry black mamba bite
would think as pissy as cottonmouths are dry bites might be a bit more unlikely with them....
I wish it was higher than 1/3, but that is still higher than I would have thought. It wouldn't surprise me if most of those bitten by pit vipers in the US were messing with the snake to start with. That probably skews the number towards the high side of those that got a dose of venom. If people would just leave them alone or go ahead and kill the buggers if they are in an area where they might endanger someone and then leave them alone, there would likely be a lot less people bitten by snakes. Too many "hold my beer and watch this" moments for the good of the people as well as the snake.
for the life of me, I don't know how you gents live in such dangerous territory
I'll take bears and skeeters thank you
was thinking the same thing. Much rather deal with a bear than a snake. Love AK..
easterns are nasty ones to get bit by, alot of neurotoxin in the venom......however that snake bite kit likely did lil and he actually received a minor bite that didnt inject much venom....think about it, put one of those on your arm after getting a shot at the docs office and its not gonna pull much of anything out....all a rattlesnake fang is, is a hypodermic needle....at most you will get a couple drops out and thats not gonna affect the outcome one bit.....
rattler,
you're not entirely correct. My dad has the same kit and has had it for years. they come with a razor so you can open the wound to get better suction. Take a look at the picture of his leg, notice one of the bite marks is slit open.
The problem with these "kits" is that at best they only get get a very small percentage of the venom out. The 5-10 minutes wasted in an effort to remove an insignificant amount of venom would ne better spent getting to a hospital faster.
There seems to be controversy within the medical profession on how to treat a snake bite in the field. Some years ago I took a first aid course designed for hunters. When dealing with snake bites the instructor advised to do nothing. He contended the extractors did more harm than good. Ice while it may slow down the spread of venom will eventually allow a massive dose to hit critical organs. A loose tourniquet was the only suggested field treatment. I once had a number of friends from Peru that swore by using a car battery to shock victims of deadly snake bites in the jungle. My understanding is that the method is still being used today. Yet, all our medical experts contends there is no benefit from electric shock.
We have a crap load of cottonmouths were I hunt, and I hate em all. I NEVER EVER go into the woods/swamp without a gun(s) of some sort and knee high boots. We have rattle snakes (2 kinds), copperheads, diamondbacks (rare) and coral snakes (rare). I do believe some of those nasty no shoulders are protected too. HA!
I also read this: Pit vipers generally inject large amounts of venom into hunting bites, but often little or no venom into defensive bites. In fact, up to 25% of pit viper bites in humans are non-venomous "dry bites". A provoked and angered snake, however, might not only "load up" to be quite venomous, but may also strike several times!
easterns are nasty ones to get bit by, alot of neurotoxin in the venom......however that snake bite kit likely did lil and he actually received a minor bite that didnt inject much venom....think about it, put one of those on your arm after getting a shot at the docs office and its not gonna pull much of anything out....all a rattlesnake fang is, is a hypodermic needle....at most you will get a couple drops out and thats not gonna affect the outcome one bit.....
rattler,
you're not entirely correct. My dad has the same kit and has had it for years. they come with a razor so you can open the wound to get better suction. Take a look at the picture of his leg, notice one of the bite marks is slit open.
far more damage has been done with those kits than good over the years.....in the time it takes you to dig out the kit and work up the nerve to cut yourself the venom has traveled a fair ways away from the bite.....you will not get much out....chances are the guy recieved lil venom in the bite and it only appears that the kit worked....guarentee you it didnt pull chit out for venom.....
ever get a shot of morphine or such in the arse at a hospital? its taking affect in minutes.....thats how fast chit moves in a intramuscular injection.....now granted venom molecules are a bit bigger than morphine alkaloids but its still gonna be a fair way away from the bite within the time it takes to dig the kit out.....