How many years has this been going on now? Here's another lawsuit just filed in Idaho. This guy claims the gun fired without the trigger being pulled and shot him in the foot. I doubt the suit mentions anything about why his foot was in front of the muzzle.
Remington still claims the triggers are safe but I have my dad's old 721 that I know for a fact to have fired at least once when Dad took it off safety to unload it. Dad was holding it by the forearm and had taken it off safety which was needed to open the bolt. There's no question that it fired without the trigger being touched. A few years ago, I had Jack Belk repair it.
Idaho Rifle Lawsuit is Latest Claim against Remington
BOISE, Idaho (AP) � Remington Arms Co. is in court again over one of one its most-popular hunting rifles, this time with an Idaho lawsuit filed by a man who says he was shot through the foot by a defective weapon.
Oregon resident Loren Korpi said in U.S. District Court in Boise that he was hunting a year ago in Idaho when a Remington 700 bolt action rifle fired into his foot � without the trigger being pulled.
Korpi's case joins dozens of similar claims filed against Remington over the past three decades. They contend its Model 700 bolt-action rifle, with more than 5 million sold, has a flawed trigger mechanism that the company has known about for years.
The company couldn't be reached Friday, but has said its Model 700 is safe.
Jack Belk is the last guy I would want "repairing" a 700 trigger. He has been trying to replicate a misfire for years, albeit unsuccessfully.
The only thing Remington is guilty of is making a trigger that isn't IDIOT PROOF enough........
What a pile of crap. When I buy a new Remington, I cant remove the Xmark pro trigger fast enough to install an old model dangerous trigger on them....
Jack Belk is the last guy I would want "repairing" a 700 trigger. He has been trying to replicate a misfire for years, albeit unsuccessfully.
The only thing Remington is guilty of is making a trigger that isn't IDIOT PROOF enough........
Bull. When Dad moved the safety to fire, it fired. He hand was nowhere near the trigger. That thing was clearly defective.
Jack Belk is the last guy I would want "repairing" a 700 trigger. He has been trying to replicate a misfire for years, albeit unsuccessfully.
The only thing Remington is guilty of is making a trigger that isn't IDIOT PROOF enough........
[bleep] bullshit. Remington incriminated themselves when they redesigned the trigger correct?
I had it happen twice, once with a 721 30-06 and once with an early 700 BDL 7 mag. Both times the muzzle was pointed correctly, and nothing but my ringing ears resulted.
You couldn't give me a 700 and make me keep it.
It happened to a Campfire member at Quemado back in August I think during the prairie dog shoot. I will let him weigh in if he wants to, but from what I know he was getting ready to shoot and had his rifle on the bags when somebody walked up and said something to him. He put the rifle on safety and answered the man. When he took the rifle off safety, it fired. I do not know if he had touched the trigger before putting it on safety or not. I will not tell the names of the men involved. They can if they wish to. They may not think it worth the aggravation involved to tell their side of what happened. miles
If something is made Idiot Proof then better Idiots will be made.
Something that doesn't work on a lethal device was designed and made by idiots.
milespatton,
Are we expected to believe a prairie dog shooter never adjusted his factory trigger?
No doubt it happens. I've seen it.
The only safety I trust is between my ears.
I had one that would go off on its own... did it 5 or 6 times...
it was a 1979 vintage manufacture... a buddy borrowed it for an elk hunt, and I was standing there when he was unloading it.. ( it was an ADL in 30/06).. and it went off, and right thru the two rear quarter panels on a brand new Chevy pickup...
I finally just had the trigger replaced and rebarreled it to a 6mm Rem.. there has been no issues with it since...
It had been back to Remington twice, who said there was nothing wrong with it..
I racked up the problem to poor quality control in the trigger manufacturing over it being a design flaw...
Never could figure why a safety had to be put in the fire position in order to open the bolt. What is safe about a locked bolt?
And yes, I was present while a friend was unloading his 700 when it fired, barely missing another friend.
Well I had a gunsmith do some work on a 6.5 x 55 Ruger MK II back in 1994. Bedded the gun and did a trigger job. Sent the gun to me and I thought the trigger was a little to light, so I put in on safe, and squeezed the trigger, then I push the safety off and it fired on on an empty chamber. I said to myself this is interesting, so I repeated it 10 more times, yep ever single time. then I tried banging the butt of th rifle on the floor, yep, at that point I called the Gunsmith and told him my findings. Please send it back, I will take care of shipping. So I did, a week later I get a call, and he confirmed it and was ready to write me a check for the work he did, I told him how about replacing the trigger? That would work, I said I will buy the trigger you install it and call it good. It turned out to be one of the most accurate rifles I ever owned. That was the only time I ever had a trigger problem with a rifle, now I did have an incident with a set trigger once. No harm done. I think guys mess with triggers and even good gunsmiths may lighten them to much as with the case of that Ruger of mine. It was an odd thing but it happens, Good gun handling and testing a trigger before you load ammo will prevent most of this stuff. I find it funny that these flaws can never be repeated with any kind of consistency - Its a deep pockets thing, they been going after Remington over this issue for decades, Same with Blaser, but that guy loaded shotgun powder in a 300 Weatherby and was pissed that the gun let go after the 15th shot. I had a bunch of Remington 700's over the years never so much as a hick up. Lots of guys fool with things and never admit that they did. I don't do gunsmithing since I am not a gunsmith. Its that simple. I also will not lend out as a rifle general rule, nor would I borrow one. Guns for the most part are very strong and very safe, but people do miss handle and they do foolish things and blame others for it. Human Failings I guess, we live in an era were its always going to be somebody else's fault.
That is why when Remington buys out a great company like H&R, Marlin makes you wounder why .Now you have 3 companys that make junk . Remington been junk for years 80s anyway
I had a Ruger do it once. Of course I didn't have it pointed at my foot or anybody else. HINT Anybody want to sell the pos short 700 let me know. I'll take a chance.
Are we expected to believe a prairie dog shooter never adjusted his factory trigger?
It was at the campfire gathering and is called the prairie dog shoot. Small prairie dog paper targets at 100 yards. Shoot any kind of rifle or pistol you want. Lots of shooting other peoples rifles. Good fun and because of safe rifle handing, nobody hurt. miles
Jack Belk is the last guy I would want "repairing" a 700 trigger. He has been trying to replicate a misfire for years, albeit unsuccessfully.
The only thing Remington is guilty of is making a trigger that isn't IDIOT PROOF enough........
[bleep] bullshit. Remington incriminated themselves when they redesigned the trigger correct?
Using that logic, every new or improved design, whether it be firearms related, automotive or anything else, implies that the preceding design was no good?
I'm all up for those that want to sell their old POS Rems.
I saw it happen once too, but the trigger had been tweaked down to little bit of nothign pull, and at that point even being dirty can affect things.
Damn shame that stupid [bleep] that don't understand where to point a muzzle and that there is NO design of a trigger than can not fail at some point, will have us buying guns with fixed trigger pulls, bodies welded shut, about 12 pounds pull and 1/4 inch of creep....
Yep. Seen it occur twice with rifles, once with an aftermarket trigger that wasn't properly adjusted and once with a Remington 700 trigger that wasn't properly adjusted.
Might be a trend in there.
So long as man has free access to screwdrivers, triggers will "malfunction".
Miles is right on the mark - the Remington self-discharge he references was witnessed by many experienced shooters, and those closest to the action know that the unaltered trigger never was touched after that safety was engaged. When the safety was slipped off "safe" - - BANG !! That same day, as witnessed by some of the same experienced shooters, a Rem 700 self-discharged as the bolt was being closed.
Both shooters involved were being ultra-safe with their rifles, but the rifles not safe in the least. Note p.15 of the Remington video sticky.
IMO most of the "misfires" have occurred due to improperly adjusted triggers or folks unknowingly contacting the trigger when the safety is taken off.
JMO.
When Belk tried over and over to replicate a "misfire" on camera, he was unable to do it. And admitted as much.
When someone accidentally discharges a firearm and puts a hole in someone or something, the first thing they want to do is blame someone or something else........
Yep. Seen it occur twice with rifles, once with an aftermarket trigger that wasn't properly adjusted and once with a Remington 700 trigger that wasn't properly adjusted. Might be a trend in there.
Yes, but more than a trend. Good point - any maladjusted trigger, of any type, on any rifle is a candidate to bring about such a self-discharge. Then again, when this happens with unaltered factory triggers on a specific model of a name brand rifle, it seems to be a special case.
Miles is right on the mark - the Remington self-discharge he references was witnessed by many experienced shooters, and those closest to the action know that the unaltered trigger never was touched after that safety was engaged. When the safety was slipped off "safe" - - BANG !! That same day, as witnessed by some of the same experienced shooters, a Rem 700 self-discharged as the bolt was being closed.
Both shooters involved were being ultra-safe with their rifles, but the rifles not safe in the least. Note p.15 of the Remington video sticky.
Both incidents I saw were experienced shooters too, whatever the hell that means.
Just because someone has been doing something for a long time doesn't mean they have the first clue. Seen it too much, most especially with 'EXPERIENCED SHOOTERS'
Never could figure why a safety had to be put in the fire position in order to open the bolt. What is safe about a locked bolt?...
Not all do. I have 2 Savages with 3 stage safeties. The middle position allows the bolt to operate while still blocking the trigger.
Remington don't either, at least not for a long time. You can work the bolt all you wish with the safety engaged.
Jack Belk is the last guy I would want "repairing" a 700 trigger. He has been trying to replicate a misfire for years, albeit unsuccessfully.
The only thing Remington is guilty of is making a trigger that isn't IDIOT PROOF enough........
[bleep] bullshit. Remington incriminated themselves when they redesigned the trigger correct?
Bu llS hit , Remington has the right to design a new trigger just like other rifle manufacturers have been doing of late. Everyone is designing a new trigger, but Remington cant, Bu ll Sh it
This year cow elk hunting, the other hunter accidently touched off his Re3mington Model 721 when he took the safety off and went to work the bolt. Except he had the honesty to tell us he accidently hit the trigger with his little finger.
Remington has been sued well over 100 times since the 1940's. I cannot find a single case they've won. They will continue to be sued as long as the defective rifles are still in circulation. The trigger used for 60 years from 1946-2007 is a flawed design that could fire at any time with no pull of the trigger.
I've seen it happen to a perfectly clean, unaltered rifle.
It happened to a brand new rifle submitted to Consumer reports in 1968 and was reported in the article.
The flaw was discovered in 1946 by Remington engineers who asked for a design change in 1946. That design was finally put in place in 2007.
The problem is the trigger connector. Most, if not every other trigger in the world is connected directly to the sear. Pull the trigger, the sear is released and the gun fires. Remingtons old trigger used a completely un necessary connector in between the trigger and sear. Under certain rare conditions the connector will let go of the sear with no trigger pull. When this happens the safety is the only thing holding the firing pin back. Release the safety and the gun fires.
This is not as rare as Remington and their lovers want to admit. Estimates range from 5000-10,000 incidents that have been reported to Remington since the 1940's. Only a fraction have resulted in deaths or injuries fortunately. There is documentation of 130 or so rifles returned to Remington in 1980 alone for this problem. If that were a typical year that works out to almost 8000 incidents.
The fact that your gun has never done it means nothing. I've never been struck by lightening, but that does nothing to lessen the odds of it happening in the future. My rifle gave me 20 years of perfect service before doing it 2-3 times all in the same day. It hasn't repeated the issue in close to 15 years and probably never will.
Jack Belk is the last guy I would want "repairing" a 700 trigger. He has been trying to replicate a misfire for years, albeit unsuccessfully.
The only thing Remington is guilty of is making a trigger that isn't IDIOT PROOF enough........
Saw a factory new rifle bought by a law enforcement agency go bang on the firing line when the safety was moved from safe to fire.
That was in about 1995 or 1996 at Camp Ripley, MN.
The rifle had been cleaned and a scope mounted on it, but the trigger had not been "adjusted" by the armorer.
Jack Belk is the last guy I would want "repairing" a 700 trigger. He has been trying to replicate a misfire for years, albeit unsuccessfully.
The only thing Remington is guilty of is making a trigger that isn't IDIOT PROOF enough........
[bleep] bullshit. Remington incriminated themselves when they redesigned the trigger correct?
Bu llS hit , Remington has the right to design a new trigger just like other rifle manufacturers have been doing of late. Everyone is designing a new trigger, but Remington cant, Bu ll Sh it
This year cow elk hunting, the other hunter accidently touched off his Re3mington Model 721 when he took the safety off and went to work the bolt. Except he had the honesty to tell us he accidently hit the trigger with his little finger.
I had a brand new 700 AD on me...no trigger adjustment done at all. Safety moved to unload rifle..why would a finger be near the trigger? [bleep] morons like yourself think that only your opinion counts and that everyone else is wrong. I know what happened in my case and i know the gun failed. Hasn't happened with any other rifle I have ever owned. Never has happened when the trigger on the 700 was replaced with an aftermarket trigger PROPERLY adjusted AZZHOLE. To understand the problem with these triggers you would have to know a little about gun design which obviously you are clueless.
I've shot more than a few rounds around folks with Rem 700s in competition, that have only worked on the factory triggers. Old triggers. The "unsafe" ones.
Some of these folks run 10-20K rounds a year in em.
No one ever talked about a failure in teh safety. Or the trigger.
I just feel that yes I won't argue that it didn't happen, IE the discharges. But it has happened with others. And the "failure" rate vs rounds fired has to be horribly insignifcant.
wont' keep me from preferring the old better feeling triggers. And doesn't really matter since I don't point the barrel where it should not be.
Its an axiom i used to teach in hunter ed. You don't need to know the 10 rules, as long as you observe muzzle control. Because a safety is a mechanical device, which can, and will eventually fail. Just like anything else in this world.
I've shot more than a few rounds around folks with Rem 700s in competition, that have only worked on the factory triggers. Old triggers. The "unsafe" ones.
Some of these folks run 10-20K rounds a year in em.
No one ever talked about a failure in teh safety. Or the trigger.
I just feel that yes I won't argue that it didn't happen, IE the discharges. But it has happened with others. And the "failure" rate vs rounds fired has to be horribly insignifcant.
wont' keep me from preferring the old better feeling triggers. And doesn't really matter since I don't point the barrel where it should not be.
Its an axiom i used to teach in hunter ed. You don't need to know the 10 rules, as long as you observe muzzle control. Because a safety is a mechanical device, which can, and will eventually fail. Just like anything else in this world.
Yes I agree rules of proper gun handling are in place for a reason. That said a properly designed firearm that has not been altered by the consumer or outside gunsmith should not discharge when moving the trigger from safety to fire .
And how many of these happen? Its not only the Rem that does it.
I've talked with folks that had old savage do the same and i've heard it from Ruger folks too.
I agree it should be the best it can be, but when your track record is how many bazillion firings, and just a few discharges?
Like I said, folks keep pushing chit, we'll end up with a trigger that I'd take and beat over the head of folks that did all the lawsuits.
It happens ONLY when someone adjust the sear to lean cause they don't know the way to make a lite pull correctly or try to go lighter than the that particlar tigger will do so safely
It happens ONLY when someone adjust the sear to lean cause they don't know the way to make a lite pull correctly or try to go lighter than the that particlar tigger will do so safely
Bull. My Dad wasn't a gun guy. He only got his 721 out a few days before the season for a few practice shots. He never tinkered with it in any way. He was a deer hunter and nothing else about guns interested him in any way. I know for a FACT that his trigger was never out of the stock yet it fired at least one time when the safety was taken off.
I've shot more than a few rounds around folks with Rem 700s in competition, that have only worked on the factory triggers. Old triggers. The "unsafe" ones.
Some of these folks run 10-20K rounds a year in em.
No one ever talked about a failure in teh safety. Or the trigger.
I just feel that yes I won't argue that it didn't happen, IE the discharges. But it has happened with others. And the "failure" rate vs rounds fired has to be horribly insignifcant.
wont' keep me from preferring the old better feeling triggers. And doesn't really matter since I don't point the barrel where it should not be.
Its an axiom i used to teach in hunter ed. You don't need to know the 10 rules, as long as you observe muzzle control. Because a safety is a mechanical device, which can, and will eventually fail. Just like anything else in this world.
The reason competitive shooters don't have 700s fire when they remove the safety from safe is that they never put the safety on safe!! They keep the action open until just before they're going to fire, which is an NRA rule.
I had a Model 700 in 6mm Remington fire when I removed the safety to unload it. Nothing had ever been done to the trigger.
The only other AD I ever had was a Winchester Model 70 and was my fault. I was unloading it in the pitch dark and, after the "last" round was clear, closed the bolt and pulled the trigger because I don't like to keep tension on the spring. Unfortunately I had miscounted rounds.
In both cases, the fail-safe part was keeping the rifle always pointed in a safe direction, though the butt of the Model 70 was resting on my thigh and it was a .375 H&H. Ouch!
Mike Walker {designer of the 700 trigger} recognized the connector flaw himself shortly after the rifle went into production and urged Remington to change it. Walker had already designed a new trigger without the connector but Remington refused to change it as there were already too many out there and it would have cost more than they wanted to spend to admit there was a problem and do a recall.
I've shot more than a few rounds around folks with Rem 700s in competition, that have only worked on the factory triggers. Old triggers. The "unsafe" ones.
Some of these folks run 10-20K rounds a year in em.
No one ever talked about a failure in teh safety. Or the trigger.
I just feel that yes I won't argue that it didn't happen, IE the discharges. But it has happened with others. And the "failure" rate vs rounds fired has to be horribly insignifcant.
wont' keep me from preferring the old better feeling triggers. And doesn't really matter since I don't point the barrel where it should not be.
Its an axiom i used to teach in hunter ed. You don't need to know the 10 rules, as long as you observe muzzle control. Because a safety is a mechanical device, which can, and will eventually fail. Just like anything else in this world.
Yes I agree rules of proper gun handling are in place for a reason. That said a properly designed firearm that has not been altered by the consumer or outside gunsmith should not discharge when moving the trigger from safety to fire .
You dont know much about Murphys Law, do you....
The number one rule to gun safety is to never point a barrel at anyone, much less, yourself.
It also helps if you remove your finger from the trigger when you release the saftey
It also helps if you remove your finger from the trigger when you release the saftey
BAM...........
Kind of funny, all the custom smiths I've rubbed elbows with or spoken to install them happily/regularly without a bad word to say amongst them........
It happens ONLY when someone adjust the sear to lean cause they don't know the way to make a lite pull correctly or try to go lighter than the that particlar tigger will do so safely
B S !
The 721 that let go was my dad's, and he bought it new, never altering anything ever.
The 700 I had let go was bought new, and I had never had it out of the stock. It happened about a year after I got the gun. I had put a whopping box of shells through it by then.
Your statement is false, and you have no basis to know all the other incidents' circumstances. Diehards go with their eyes closed.
Both incidents I saw were experienced shooters too, whatever the hell that means. Just because someone has been doing something for a long time doesn't mean they have the first clue. Seen it too much, most especially with 'EXPERIENCED SHOOTERS'
Looks like it may be best for a guy to avoid those experienced shooters. The inexperienced shooters that have a clue probably handle their firearms more safely and knowledgeably - and maybe fewer cynical know-it-all types among the crude novices.
I've shot more than a few rounds around folks with Rem 700s in competition, that have only worked on the factory triggers. Old triggers. The "unsafe" ones.
Some of these folks run 10-20K rounds a year in em.
No one ever talked about a failure in teh safety. Or the trigger.
I just feel that yes I won't argue that it didn't happen, IE the discharges. But it has happened with others. And the "failure" rate vs rounds fired has to be horribly insignifcant.
wont' keep me from preferring the old better feeling triggers. And doesn't really matter since I don't point the barrel where it should not be.
Its an axiom i used to teach in hunter ed. You don't need to know the 10 rules, as long as you observe muzzle control. Because a safety is a mechanical device, which can, and will eventually fail. Just like anything else in this world.
Yes I agree rules of proper gun handling are in place for a reason. That said a properly designed firearm that has not been altered by the consumer or outside gunsmith should not discharge when moving the trigger from safety to fire .
You dont know much about Murphys Law, do you....
The number one rule to gun safety is to never point a barrel at anyone, much less, yourself.
Reading comprehension issues as well. Read what I said about proper gun handling. I think that means not pointing a gun at someone for starters DUH
I've shot more than a few rounds around folks with Rem 700s in competition, that have only worked on the factory triggers. Old triggers. The "unsafe" ones.
Some of these folks run 10-20K rounds a year in em.
No one ever talked about a failure in teh safety. Or the trigger.
I just feel that yes I won't argue that it didn't happen, IE the discharges. But it has happened with others. And the "failure" rate vs rounds fired has to be horribly insignifcant.
wont' keep me from preferring the old better feeling triggers. And doesn't really matter since I don't point the barrel where it should not be.
Its an axiom i used to teach in hunter ed. You don't need to know the 10 rules, as long as you observe muzzle control. Because a safety is a mechanical device, which can, and will eventually fail. Just like anything else in this world.
The reason competitive shooters don't have 700s fire when they remove the safety from safe is that they never put the safety on safe!! They keep the action open until just before they're going to fire, which is an NRA rule.
Yes of course. But haven't the rules changed lately.. haven't shot since 2004.
BUT the point was if the trigger is faulty design, and SOME point over billions of rounds fired, the thing should fail with its sear engagement and go bang as you close the bolt.
And FWIW most of the bolt gun guys used the safetys a few times during a match, going and coming, so its not like the safeties were not engaged/disengaged more than a normal hunter would over the course of that rifles life.
Yep. Seen it occur twice with rifles, once with an aftermarket trigger that wasn't properly adjusted and once with a Remington 700 trigger that wasn't properly adjusted.
Might be a trend in there.
Totally agree.
Yep. Seen it occur twice with rifles, once with an aftermarket trigger that wasn't properly adjusted and once with a Remington 700 trigger that wasn't properly adjusted.
Might be a trend in there.
Since a good number of these ADs have been with triggers that have never been adjusted by the owners, I can only assume that they come from the factory improperly adjusted. That in itself is grounds for lawsuits.
But no one is watching every idiot every time they handle a 700... The inability to recreate the event proves the far more likely cause was a finger on the trigger when they pushed the safety off.
Jack Belk could not recreate the AD, and admitted so in court, on any rifle claimed to have suffered same.
Bubbaing a trigger and having it do so is not difficult.
Not at all. It's well known that many thousands of safeties are moved to fire without an AD. It's a rare event but it does happen. The odds of Belk repeating it in even 1000 attempts are very small. Unless he had a gun that did it a lot, which is quite rare, I'd be very surprised if he could make it happen in a demo. My dad's rifle only did it once in 60 years that I know of. What are the odds of getting it to happen again in a demonstration? Almost zero.
Wow! Sorry, but you have obviously not spent any time inside a 700 trigger!
Again, the leading cause of ADs with the 700 trigger is Bubba... I also believe the leading cause of one-off ADs involves a finger.
Mechanical things that function more than 99.9% of the time and then never show the symptom again are not the problem when a very simple probable cause is so readily "at hand" and there are at least two puns in this post.
The fact is they happen on un-bubba'd triggers as they came from the factory.
Dumbassery will cause all kind of problems, but the AD when a safety is moved from safe to fire is real, albeit extremely rare.
Some people won't ever believe it until they see it.
When they happen, and I have seen them many times, it was Bubba that did it... They do NOT happen just once and never repeat themselves. That gets over into thinking something will just suddenly happen less than once in a thousand times and never happen again... Sorry, but that is a very hard sell when there is a ridiculously simple answer to the why of the failure.
Every "fire on closing" or "fire on safety release" situation I have seen was absolutely repeatable very frequently, and Bubba had been there.
I have looked at triggers that supposedly did one of the above that had never been touched. I have not seen them AD, ever. Jack Belk admitted he had NEVER seen one either, in court.
How can you know it isn't a finger when the odds are so hugely against your stance?
Had it happen on my custom built Remington 700 in 300 Weatherby mag a couple of times. Took it to several gunsmiths none could find a problem with the safety. Just before taking it to a gunsmith for some unrelated work I placed the wife's lip stick on the trigger assembly and reinstalled in the stock worked the safety then removed the barreled action from the stock. There was lipstick on the wood in the trigger area so removed wood from trigger area reinstalled the barrel action and haven't had a problem since.
The safety wasn't the problem, it was the idiot that did the inlet of the wood in the trigger area that caused the problem, namely me.
Another one bites the dust.
If one believes all the bull one reads on this site there really aren't many rifles left out there that are worth spit. Haven't most all of them been crucified in print here at one time or another?
Opinions are like rifles, every hunter has one.
The simple answer is because I have seen it.
A new, less than one year old, 700 BDL in 243 Win.
The gun was purchased at a local store, new in box, and had rings and scope mounted. A patch was run through the bore and less than a box of shells were used to sight it in and shoot a couple groups. The rifle was put in the safe and left for a few months.
I pulled the gun out prior to the start of the season and as usual checked the chamber right away and worked the bolt. When I went to move the safety, the firing pin dropped. WTF? I cycled the bolt again and worked the safety. Twice in a row the gun released the pin. I hollered for pop thinking WTF is up with that. I tried to repeat it for him but it would not do it again.
I pulled the stock and everything was perfectly clean.
I have used that gun several times since but have fired only 20-30 rounds through it and it has not done it again, but I sure as [bleep] don't trust the safety.
It was my experience, I know what happened. No bubba trigger, no finger near the trigger, no dirt, oil or neglect.
I don't blame people for being skeptical. There has got to be a gazillion 700's out there and as dumb as alot of people I have met seem to be, there should be a stack of bodies.
But there it is.
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. According to the TV special that aired a few years back regarding the Remington lawsuits the AD'S happen frequently to the SWAT/miltary snipers who use M40'S/700'S with the faulty trigger design too. It is rather funny that all the experts here can't examine the 700 trigger assembly and see the mechanical design flaw that causes the fire at release of safety to happen. Jack Belk has explained/shown the problem in great and vivid detail with blueprints/diagrams many times and it's quite evident to anyone with a smidgen of mechanical aptitude/comprehension what the problem is when you see it.
Both incidents I saw were experienced shooters too, whatever the hell that means. Just because someone has been doing something for a long time doesn't mean they have the first clue. Seen it too much, most especially with 'EXPERIENCED SHOOTERS'
Looks like it may be best for a guy to avoid those experienced shooters. The inexperienced shooters that have a clue probably handle their firearms more safely and knowledgeably - and maybe fewer cynical know-it-all types among the crude novices.
Here is one of those EXPERIENCED shooters, lots of those types out there and on the 'Fire
show up in the strangest places. Anyone ever had one of your rifles load itself after years of sitting in the back of the rack?
I never keep any loaded weapons around except for one shotgun and one handgun in the house. But today, while showing my nephew a few candidates for his new deer rifle, he racked the bolt a couple of times on a .270 and out flies a shell. Now, it wasn't in the chamber before he worked the bolt a few times and there was no real danger because safe gun handling was being practiced, but I was a little shaken, then mad at myself.
I honestly don't know the last time that rifle was used and I really don't know how it was loaded. Well...I guess I know I left it with a few in the magazine but I don't know why or how.
So, I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I'll reiterate the old axiom to treat every gun as if it is loaded because it just may be.
According to the TV special that aired a few years back regarding the Remington lawsuits the AD'S happen frequently to the SWAT/miltary snipers who use M40'S/700'S with the faulty trigger design too.
Wow, a TV special. Really?
Faulty/unsafe triggers which AD frequently? Yet the military keeps buying them by the 10s of thousands. And they continue to out sell every other bolt gun made.
And Belk can't seem to replicate an AD, but he keeps getting paid anyway.
Get a clue.........
I'm afraid you're the one who needs to get a clue. Like I said before, the problem/potential for failure with the connector is evident upon examination of a blueprint of the mechanism to anyone with a bit of mechanical aptitude. Too bad you don't have any.
For one thing, about the little TV special you alluded to:
Do you not think the military adjusts the trigger of a 700 before it goes into service? You think they just slap a BSA Contender on it and send it out? Snipers using factory adjusted triggers
That's a good one. You gotta be clueless to buy that BS.
Why would a rifle with a terribly unsafe trigger be the mainstay of military/police?
It doesn't matter how the trigger is adjusted, the potential for failure if the connector fails to engage/drop into place is still there. I cannot explain it to someone who lacks the potential to comprehend how the mechanism works and what happens when it fails so I won't waste my time.
For one thing, about the little TV special you alluded to:
Do you not think the military adjusts the trigger of a 700 before it goes into service? You think they just slap a BSA Conteder on it and send it out? Snipers using factory adjusted triggers
That's a good one. You gotta be clueless to buy that BS.
Why would a rifle with a terribly unsafe trigger be the mainstay of military/police?
That's been my question. I guess I should sell my 700 bench rifle.
It doesn't matter how the trigger is adjusted, the potential for failure if the connector fails to engage/drop into place is still there. I cannot explain it to someone who lacks the potential to comprehend how the mechanism works and what happens when it fails so I won't waste my time.
Yeah, it DOES matter how the trigger is adjusted and I can guarantee you I know more of how a Remington trigger works than you do. Been doing trigger jobs for years now. Guess what? No AD's.
You keep believing what you see on TV, I'll stick with reality.........
I can guarantee you I know more of how a Remington trigger works than you do.
I kind of doubt that. I get paid to work on firearms every day.
Having owned a pawn shop, I have seen more than a few rifles where the firing pin would drop either on closing the bolt or disengaging the safety. In all cases the triggers or bolts were so gummed up with crap, more than likely WD40.
Just an observation on my part.
I've seen it happen a couple of times, but the triggers WERE bubba-ed. Safe handling techniques "mitigated" the ADs, but they still happened. A quick trip back to the workbench got them "lined out" so it wouldn't happen again, though.
I don't use Remingtons any longer, though, not because of the triggers, but because I simply don't like "something" about them.
For the same reasons some folks don't like Winchesters or Rugers, I don't like Remingtons. There's something about the short bolt handles, too-tight pistol grips, and stock fit that I just don't like, so I don't use them any more. It isn't the triggers, though, it's the whole package.
I will weigh in here and list my experiences. I have been Smithing for 29 years and many 700 rifles have come through my door claiming an AD when moving the safety to the fire position. I have asked the owners to relate what was the scenario when the AD occurred. Many times the rifle had been chambered in the morning and carried all day then when it was time to unload back at camp the rifle fired upon moving the safety. Another AD condition I have notice when an owner brings in his rifle is a build up of varnish in the trigger from old oil. Most of these rifles look to never have been out of the stock since new.
I competed in High Power Silhouette for 15 years back in the late 70's and 80's and I used 700 Varmint rifles in 308 7-08 and at last 7BR. The original trigger was not up to the task so I tweeked it to my liking. I disassembled the trigger and used epoxy bedding to glue the floating Stainless Steel trigger horse shoe to the MIM trigger and changed the springs. Other wise you could and would have a different pull each shot. Later moved to a Canjar Light Pull 2oz. Single shot only so the safety was removed to help make the 10 pound 2 ounce limit.
It is my opinion that this floating horse shoe is the problem with AD's. Sure the safety blocks the trigger from moving but the floating piece can and does move with the vibration from carrying all day plus the firing pin spring load lets this piece move so when the safety is moved the load has shifted enough to fire the rifle. Most of the rifles I have examined claiming AD were 20 or more years old and wear enhanced the problem.
A 700 30-06 with the sixties style pressed checkering came into my shop Tuesday this week Claiming a AD and then showing me a hole in the drivers side windshield post and a shattered back window of his new Ford 250. I said we could enlarge the hole and he could install a spotlight. He was not amused.
I have seen it happen in real life as well, so it is a problem to be reckoned with.
I get paid to work on firearms every day
Never twice by the same person, apparently........
I get paid to work on firearms every day
Never twice by the same person, apparently........
You're in denial, 2much. It happens and happened to me twice with unaltered guns...one 721 and the other my new (back in 1967)700 7mag.
I've pretty much said all I have to say on it. Not gonna keep beating a dead horse or get in a pissing match about it.
Like Art said earlier, it don't just happen once, and then magically stop happening. Think about it.......
It happened...think about that.
It doesn't with me anymore. I don't own 700s.
700 guys will defend them to the death. I just hope it isn't an accidental death.
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. According to the TV special that aired a few years back regarding the Remington lawsuits the AD'S happen frequently to the SWAT/miltary snipers who use M40'S/700'S with the faulty trigger design too. It is rather funny that all the experts here can't examine the 700 trigger assembly and see the mechanical design flaw that causes the fire at release of safety to happen. Jack Belk has explained/shown the problem in great and vivid detail with blueprints/diagrams many times and it's quite evident to anyone with a smidgen of mechanical aptitude/comprehension what the problem is when you see it.
Sorry, but you are full of schit! Watch Remington's answer to the TV special. You may just catch the part where the armorer was duped into making them AD to show them how it was done. This was then aired as if it actually happened on working rifles.
Jack Belk was proven to be an idiot when he admitted he could not reproduce any ADs on any 700 he has ever tested. All he says it is easy to make them do it.
I have absolutely no question about 700s that AD, that happens. And Bubba is usually there when it does. But when it cannot be replicated any reasonable thinker would see a trigger with fresh finger prints.
It happened...think about that.
It doesn't with me anymore. I don't own 700s.
700 guys will defend them to the death. I just hope it isn't an accidental death.
Problem is you cannot prove no finger was on those triggers... And it could not be replicated. As proof that is very weak when they can be made to fail, but they then almost always continue to fail. Or at best intermittently... But they can virtually always be made to fail.
Ever notice that when people are injured from an AD that usually gun malfunction is the culprit. Even if the triggers were 50% more likely to AD no one should ever be injured if people would control their muzzles.
I will cuss someone out for pointing a gun at me even if it has an empty chamber flag.
Remington triggers are junk. Not sure why there is such brand loyalty with any product. Their bolt release is a joke too. I am not sure why Remington doesn't totally scrap the original design and come up with some more open like a Ruger, Winchester or Savage trigger.
It happened...think about that.
It doesn't with me anymore. I don't own 700s.
700 guys will defend them to the death. I just hope it isn't an accidental death.
Problem is you cannot prove no finger was on those triggers... And it could not be replicated. As proof that is very weak when they can be made to fail, but they then almost always continue to fail. Or at best intermittently... But they can virtually always be made to fail.
I was there. You Weren't. I know what happened. You Don't.
So the Remington safety does not lock the bolt.Are these idiots incapable of unloading the chamber with the safety on???I have no problems with any 700`s I have ever owned trigger and safety wise.Yes I can make a 700 trigger do that by adjusting too light and not changing springs or polishing the sear.Any fool can and I believe that is how these (Accidental discharges happen).Show me proof beyond hearsay.
A major problem is that people fail to realize big companies look at lawsuits very pragmatically... if they MIGHT lose they are willing to pay something to reduce that POTENTIAL loss. Paying to limit their liability is a good business decision, though often a horrible publicity problem.
The triggers are a prime example. Here we have shooters that claim a high degree of understanding, yet they bought into ridiculously cheap ploys, like the military issues with failures... they did not happen, yet idiots bought into a horribly biased TV special without bothering to check any facts!
Those idiots are a MAJOR problem to gun owners everywhere! They claim expertise while lacking any real deductive ability whatsoever. They buy into propaganda and easily convince less-informed individuals of their expertise.
Divide and conquer has only worked for millennia.
I personally ran a number of tests in extreme cold weather with most brands of rifle triggers several years ago. Remarkably, all responded very similarly to water spray tests in cold weather. As they did when subjected to high humidity and cycling temps.
After a while I got the idea the designers probably spent a bunch of time thinking up better tests and I was simply trailing them.
It happened...think about that.
It doesn't with me anymore. I don't own 700s.
700 guys will defend them to the death. I just hope it isn't an accidental death.
Problem is you cannot prove no finger was on those triggers... And it could not be replicated. As proof that is very weak when they can be made to fail, but they then almost always continue to fail. Or at best intermittently... But they can virtually always be made to fail.
I was there. You Weren't. I know what happened. You Don't.
But I had some classes in math and statistics... Any gambler would lay big money that Physics trumps question marks. No disrespect intended and I fully appreciate your bias, but I also have to look at things from a very basic perspective and eliminate all static and noise until I can determine it is not just static and noise.
The odds of no trigger involvement in two issues is extremely narrow. It goes to far more than an order of magnitude to assume two events. Using Rock Chuck's claim of less than one in a thousand, which is generous by the results of Jack Belk, means your odds of two such events run to far less than one in a million.
Look at all of the 700s out there and the small number of claims... and the number of times each 700 was cycled without an issue...
Tilting at windmills would be better odds.
Remington triggers are junk. Not sure why there is such brand loyalty with any product. Their bolt release is a joke too. I am not sure why Remington doesn't totally scrap the original design and come up with some more open like a Ruger, Winchester or Savage trigger.
Yup, junk and jokes...
And why virtually every aftermarket manufacturer makes interchangeable parts for the 700.
As I mentioned a post or two ago... I tested a bunch of different action/trigger combos a couple years ago... None acted particularly different under conditions as nearly identical as I could make them... Model 70s of every era froze just as solidly as 700s... as did 77s and several others. It was so boringly "the same" I did not bother to write anything about it. I had no model to point out as horrible and none to claim as "the best."
All I can add is in over 40 years of owning the model 700 model rifle it has yet to fail and I even lightened the trigger pull and in not only 47 or so years of range using and hunting with friends I have never had, seen nor heard anyone tell me of having any issues with the trigger.
So who knows, maybe in all that time I have been lucky.
So the Remington safety does not lock the bolt.Are these idiots incapable of unloading the chamber with the safety on???
The older Remington triggers did lock the bolt down and you had to take the safety off to work the bolt. It was changed on the later ones but I do not have a date. miles
Sitka,
FWIW both times the guns had been put on safe and had the triggers pulled to confirm they were on safe. My dad did this as a rule, and I got the habit from him. Neither gun had been altered in any way; the triggers were untouched after leaving the factory. There were no fingers in contact with the triggers when the safeties were moved off.
I realize the odds, but Ive been around odds and statistics all my life. Sometimes the monkeys do end up writing King Lear.
I don't hate 700s, and they are a great platform. I've been spooked personally, however.
So the Remington safety does not lock the bolt.Are these idiots incapable of unloading the chamber with the safety on???
The older Remington triggers did lock the bolt down and you had to take the safety off to work the bolt. It was changed on the later ones but I do not have a date. miles
about 1983 IIRC
Sitka,
FWIW both times the guns had been put on safe and had the triggers pulled to confirm they were on safe. My dad did this as a rule, and I got the habit from him. Neither gun had been altered in any way; the triggers were untouched after leaving the factory. There were no fingers in contact with the triggers when the safeties were moved off.
I realize the odds, but Ive been around odds and statistics all my life. Sometimes the monkeys do end up writing King Lear.
I don't hate 700s, and they are a great platform. I've been spooked personally, however.
Bruce
Ain't nothing worse than being forced to run something you have no faith in...
And as I have probably proven, I have no issues with you and I not agreeing, and have absolutely no issue with agreeing to disagree.
If you said something against my father I would have already paid the hitman to take you out!
Rock on!
art
News flash...people are still slipping, and falling, at Walmart too.
There are about 5,000,000 model 700's, 7's 721's etc out there with the flawed trigger design. By Remington's own estimates roughly 1% have the potential to do this. That leaves 50,000 rifles that may discharge on their own. There have been somewhere between 5000-10,000 documented incidents. That means somewhere between 99.999% and 99.998% of all of these guns have never discharged on their own, or if they did there was no documentation.
It is no wonder that most shooters have not experienced this and have a difficult time accepting it is real. But 10,000 incidents over 60 years is not something to dismiss. If the airline industry only had 99.999% of its flights not crash we would have 1-2 major airlines crashing each day and after a couple of days no one would fly. But those odds seem perfectly acceptable to some gun owners.
Any gun with an improperly adjusted trigger could discharge unintentionally. But no other gun company is being accused of having brand new, perfectly clean, unmodified guns discharge with no pull of the trigger. That has happened to an awful lot of Remingtons. There is either a Remington problem, or Remington owners are the dumbest gun owners on the planet. I don't believe it is the latter.
So the Remington safety does not lock the bolt.Are these idiots incapable of unloading the chamber with the safety on???
The older Remington triggers did lock the bolt down and you had to take the safety off to work the bolt. It was changed on the later ones but I do not have a date. miles
That was in the 70`s.
[quote=luv2safari]Sitka,
FWIW both times the guns had been put on safe and had the triggers pulled to confirm they were on safe. My dad did this as a rule, and I got the habit from him.
DUH.You better unlearn that bad habit.What if there was a round in the chamber and it was not on safe???Hows about storing them with the bolt out.No confirmation needed.
Correct, and WHY did they discontinue the locking bolt issue with the safety on ? To reduce the chances of the faulty safety design of going "off safe" in order to unlock the bolt and remove a round from the chamber. That is why ONLY on Remingtons can one open the bolt with the safety fully engaged. Except of course in the Model 70 where they have the THREE position safety which is what I prefer. There's a reason as to why there is an entire cottage industry built around 700s. Safeties, extractors, triggers, etc. I really like my 22-250 heavy barreled SS Varmint 700, but the safety might as well be window dressing. I don't trust it so I don't use it.
About 10 years ago, my dad had this failure occur with his late 1970's vintage BDL. There was no AD involved. He was getting a rifle out of the back of the safe and had to remove multiple guns to get to it. Prior to returning his 700 back to the gun safe, he cycled the bolt a couple of times, whereupon the firing pin was dropping each time he closed the bolt. This had never happened to him before out in the field. The rifle was unloaded, so again, no AD. Obviously alarmed, he called to tell me about the problem, since I was always the official "gun guy" in the family. I initially thought he had to be touching the trigger for this to happen, but he told me it was happening each time the bolt was closed, and he was always a very safety-conscious shooter.
I inspected the rifle, and sure enough, the firing pin was indeed dropping into fired position as the bolt was closed, though it wasn't happening every time for me; I was able to get it to remain cocked about half the time. My dad had never tampered with the trigger. In fact, I doubt he'd ever removed the action from the stock, as he was not a tinkerer and didn't know how to adjust the trigger. When I removed the action from the stock and inspected the trigger, I saw the cause of the problem. Years of old oil residue and gunk had built up between the trigger assy side plates and the sear lever. As a result, the sear spring barely had enough force to return the sear lever back up into reset position, so the cocking piece would ride the cocking cam down as the bolt closed. I fixed the problem by simply flushing all the crud out of the trigger assy with lighter fluid. Even though I demonstrated to my dad that it worked again, he didn't trust the old trigger anymore, so I replaced it with a newer take-off trigger from one of my 700s where I'd replaced with a Jewell unit. There hasn't been a problem since.
My dad was the type of guy who for years sprayed down his guns liberally with WD-40. The 700 trigger, and any similar fully enclosed unit has very little clearance between the trigger and sear levers and the side plates. Oil can easily run down into the assembly and remain to collect sand and other debris, or to solidify over time. If oil varnish, debris collected by the oil, or corrosion builds up between the moving parts and the side plates, the sludge can slow down the movement of the sear back into cocked position or prevent reset altogether, with or without the dreaded connector. With any fully enclosed trigger assy, it's a good idea not to squirt lots of thick oil inside the works. Jewell warns against this in their instructions, in fact.
I don't believe this is a "design flaw" or a problem unique to the Remington trigger. I can see this same issue happen with any fully enclosed trigger where the parts move closely against the housing. You gotta keep it clean and free from crud buildup.
I believe "open" trigger designs like the previous generation M70 are slightly more reliable for this reason. Gunk simply cannot gum up the works of an open design, because there's nowhere for gunk to get trapped. I still prefer the Rem 700 trigger design, however.
Whether or not this is viewed as a "flaw," whether the source of the problem is operator error or legit mechanical failure, and regardless of the rarity of occurrence, as long as one always practices safe muzzle control, a tragedy can never result.
News flash...people are still slipping, and falling, at Walmart too.
and getting burned by
HOT COFFEE at McDonalds......
[quote=luv2safari]Sitka,
FWIW both times the guns had been put on safe and had the triggers pulled to confirm they were on safe. My dad did this as a rule, and I got the habit from him.
DUH.You better unlearn that bad habit.What if there was a round in the chamber and it was not on safe???Hows about storing them with the bolt out.No confirmation needed.
IF you followed this at all it was back in 1967, and I was a young guy. You might learn some manners. No confirmation needed. DUH...
The guns were put on safe, then the safety was checked. There was some logic to this as a safety factor. The guns were always pointed in a safe direction. It was the case that my dad didn't completely trust safeties. He had a very old double shotgun as a kid that had a bad safety.
Also, how the hell does anyone hunt with the bolt removed and stored somewhere else? Where did BOLTS enter into this?
OK...grab at straws now.
If one don't trust safeties, why would one use/depend on one? Meaning, why would one hunt with one in the chamber?
I have had 1 of the 700 rem rifles,got in 1977.
It has never done anything like this and it got cleaned before it was ever fired.
The trigger group was flushed out with cleaner to get any/all of the lube out.
It has been put up for about 15 years and it will be cleaned again before it is put out in the field.
When it was put up the firing pin was let down to rest on an empty chamber and i had removed the bolt block from the safety.
I like it even thou it is chambered in 270!
It's all about lawyers and easy money. Same ole [bleep] different day.
[quote=luv2safari]Sitka,
FWIW both times the guns had been put on safe and had the triggers pulled to confirm they were on safe. My dad did this as a rule, and I got the habit from him.
DUH.You better unlearn that bad habit.What if there was a round in the chamber and it was not on safe???Hows about storing them with the bolt out.No confirmation needed.
IF you followed this at all it was back in 1967, and I was a young guy. You might learn some manners. No confirmation needed. DUH...
Oh ,all the way back to 1967.I always have manners for my elders and you aint one of them.All that proves is you were stupid far longer than I can imagine.What Jorge says is true ,I do not use a safety as I do not chamber a round until I see game and am ready to shoot.If I do not shoot I pull the round.I hope I am never hunting within 100 miles from you!!!
If some of you guys want to live in a state of denial, that's up to you. Dad's rifle (700 BDL) had an AD back around '86 or '87. This was a rifle he had received new in 1962 for high school graduation. Went off when he flipped the safety off to unload before getting out of an elevated blind. Had never had an issue with it before.
Deaths/injuries are most certainly as a result of poor gun handling, but that still doesn't excuse the poor design. LOTS of rifles get carried with rounds in the chamber. Is that a good idea?? Well, why don't you ask all the guys who carried Mausers/Enfields/Springfields/Garands/AR's in multiple wars if they ran around with empty chambers??? Hunting is obviously a different matter, but apparently the trigger/safety worked well enough in those rifles that it was not considered an issue.
Just because your mom's Ford Pinto never blew up in an accident or your Ford 6.0 diesel is still running, doesn't mean there weren't design issues.
You may have impeccable gun handling skills. I hope that any you may loan or bequeath the gun to, do also......
I hunt with a round in the chamber ALL the time, except with a 700 (I only own ONE that I keep at our place in PA and when I see groundhogs in the meadow I then load and shoot. Empty chambers will eventually cost you a trophy and with dangerous game your life. My opinion folks, simply and nothing more.
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. According to the TV special that aired a few years back regarding the Remington lawsuits the AD'S happen frequently to the SWAT/miltary snipers who use M40'S/700'S with the faulty trigger design too. It is rather funny that all the experts here can't examine the 700 trigger assembly and see the mechanical design flaw that causes the fire at release of safety to happen. Jack Belk has explained/shown the problem in great and vivid detail with blueprints/diagrams many times and it's quite evident to anyone with a smidgen of mechanical aptitude/comprehension what the problem is when you see it.
Sorry, but you are full of schit! Watch Remington's answer to the TV special. You may just catch the part where the armorer was duped into making them AD to show them how it was done. This was then aired as if it actually happened on working rifles.
Jack Belk was proven to be an idiot when he admitted he could not reproduce any ADs on any 700 he has ever tested. All he says it is easy to make them do it.
I have absolutely no question about 700s that AD, that happens. And Bubba is usually there when it does. But when it cannot be replicated any reasonable thinker would see a trigger with fresh finger prints.
You might better go back and read Dustylongshots post at the bottom of page 7. He seems to have a grasp of the problem.. Somehow I doubt you have the abilty to comprehend what's been said though.
A major problem is that people fail to realize big companies look at lawsuits very pragmatically... if they MIGHT lose they are willing to pay something to reduce that POTENTIAL loss. Paying to limit their liability is a good business decision, though often a horrible publicity problem.
The triggers are a prime example. Here we have shooters that claim a high degree of understanding, yet they bought into ridiculously cheap ploys, like the military issues with failures... they did not happen, yet idiots bought into a horribly biased TV special without bothering to check any facts!
Those idiots are a MAJOR problem to gun owners everywhere! They claim expertise while lacking any real deductive ability whatsoever. They buy into propaganda and easily convince less-informed individuals of their expertise.
Divide and conquer has only worked for millennia.
I personally ran a number of tests in extreme cold weather with most brands of rifle triggers several years ago. Remarkably, all responded very similarly to water spray tests in cold weather. As they did when subjected to high humidity and cycling temps.
After a while I got the idea the designers probably spent a bunch of time thinking up better tests and I was simply trailing them.
You don't need to use deductive reasoning or theories of TV hoaxes/conspiracies if you understand how the mechanism works and what design shortcoming causes it to occasionally and unpredictably not work as it should. Idiot. Dumb as you obviously are, I wouldn't trust you to shine my shoes much less let you work on a gun.
Just because your mom's Ford Pinto never blew up in an accident or your Ford 6.0 diesel is still running, doesn't mean there weren't design issues.
Good analogy. Woops, now Sitka Deer will have to go look up a new word.
The apologists have never answered the question (no worries, I'll do it for you below) as to why Remington removed the bolt locking device when the safety was engaged....just like every other rifle on the planet.
Answer: Even to the unwashed the notion that one didn't have to mess with the safety (on to off) in order to remove a chambered round would significantly reduce the odds of an AD.
Jorge
Since you answered your own question, would you like me to answer the questions I have asked?
What are the odds that an AD could occur just once randomly in a particular 700 trigger, yet every rifle claimed to have done so could not be repeated?
Yet you can easily get virtually any trigger to fail repeatedly? And it will do so quite reliably. Remember Belk said on the stand he NEVER saw a repeat on any of the many triggers he tested that were claimed to have ADed on their own.
The bolt-locking change is a red herring. ADs while unloading are simply more likely because things are happening. Bubba can make a safety fail virtually every time by reducing sear engagement... It ain't rocket science.
Things that do not happen under controlled circumstances seldom occur when tracking stops... If many hundreds of repeatable failures can be shown and NO "random" ones have ever been documented to repeat there is probably a simpler answer.
Blackheart
Since you appear incapable of answering any questions this will be your last chance here.
I know exactly and in excruciating detail how the 700 trigger works, how the 721-22-25 triggers differ and exactly what Mike Walker said about the changes he wanted to make. You obviously did not pay attention to the response from Remington there either.
Regardless... How do you explain the inability of Belk to repeat an AD on ANY of the triggers he tested, claimed to have ADed, after extensive testing on many of them?
Yet it is easy to make them AD virtually every time?
How do you KNOW it was not a finger on the trigger?
You can speculate about what might happen inside the trigger, but you cannot replicate it for a "one-off" experience...
Jorge
Since you answered your own question, would you like me to answer the questions I have asked?
What are the odds that an AD could occur just once randomly in a particular 700 trigger, yet every rifle claimed to have done so could not be repeated? Extremely low, but since ADs are virtually unknown in the rest of the industry and first person accounts (not to mention litigation) are legion, why buy something that I know is a POS? (not to mention their bolt handles and flimsy extractors but I digress).
Yet you can easily get virtually any trigger to fail repeatedly? And it will do so quite reliably. Remember Belk said on the stand he NEVER saw a repeat on any of the many triggers he tested that were claimed to have ADed on their own. Agreed, Belk is/was an idiot, that said none of the people *I*'ve spoken with ever tinkered with the trigger.
The bolt-locking change is a red herring. ADs while unloading are simply more likely because things are happening. Bubba can make a safety fail virtually every time by reducing sear engagement... It ain't rocket science. Neither is a Model 70 or M98 safety and they have no issues, not even rumors
Things that do not happen under controlled circumstances seldom occur when tracking stops... If many hundreds of repeatable failures can be shown and NO "random" ones have ever been documented to repeat there is probably a simpler answer.
Did I mention I find the issue of the bolt not locking completely unacceptable as I do hunting with an empty chamber?
Actually, there are lawsuits against other rifles for ADs... Not as many because of the gross disparity in numbers of guns afield, but they have been listed here repeatedly.
But we are at a point where I am happy to agree to disagree.
art- out