Notice the shooting ports of these very early Yavapai ruins.
I call them the "Old Ones". I go up there and sit and try and piece together their lives as they lived it then.

Have to wonder just how old these ruins are? Anyone here have any idea?

Entrance into the citadel. This is what faced you. I don't think these were just windows... Anyone else see ruins with ports like this anywhere else?

Is this just north of Phoenix?
There are some other old ruins nearby

Nope! All we have around here is dirt.

Thanks for the memories. Having experienced those, I've wondered if they were just for seeing - or shooting - or both. Years back I asked a friend, the former Chieftess Pat McGee about that - offered little to no info on the subject.

At the many and various "Old" living sites up in this area, the "walls" are rarely so high and defined, but the general surroundings usually yield imaginitive insight to their lives. I, too, enjoy just sitting at those places and wondering what transpired.

They built this place out of fear. They were not migrating that is for sure. They had to be there for awhile.

(Sorry to interrupt, but have I missed something? Didn't you used to be in OR or WA or some such?
I get dizzy when the world moves around me too fast!)

I moved back "home" from WA State. LOVE the sunshine!! In the mid 50's today and couldn't be happier.

OK. Thanks for clearing that up.
Welcome back home.
Looking forward to more of your hunting tales, now "dateline AZ".

looks like some rocks just fell out of the wall to me.

After seeing what some native people produced a bit further south, people like the Mayans and Aztecs and Incas, I have to say, their Northern cousins weren't particularly talented in the stone construction business.

That's a defensive fort, or at least like the forts I've found.

Was there actually a ruin with rooms and patios, pottery on the ground? The forts I've found were hastily constructed, looked like one time use.

My own opinion is they were built by more modern indians during the period between the pueblos and white man.

Kent

Good points Kent,

NO rooms, except for a few at the very top, no patios, no pottery, and no writing.

I think you're right, a defensive fort. It's quite large and would have taken some time to build it. Not for a one time use.

My pics show a lower wall and only about 15% of it.

It also has two upper ring walls as well.

A whole lot more to this fort.

SU35,

look up Perry Mesa, Verde Confederacy and some of the arch. work by David Wilcox. It's pretty cool. Lot of it has to do with line of sight and communication by signals (fire?) over long distances. I'm trying to talk myself out of loading the quad and heading for Bloody Basin/Turret Peak right now.

Sycamore

I'm thinking they are defensive places built by the post pueblos... Yavapai, if that's west of the verde... the ones I found would have been Apache. Pueblos were built starting with a few rooms and adding over the years as they grew larger. Forts seem to have been built by fortifying natural outcropping (those large rocks) and not improved on.

The reason I think they were more modern indians is the hundreds of pueblos I've found, made of rock and adobe covering out in the open, have all fallen in leaving just rings and squares in the dirt after 1000 years. That these unsecured rocks are still up seems to mean more recent.

I wish someone would test the Yavapai, Hopi, Havasupai, Pima for DNA match to Hohokam, Salado, Anasazi, Sinagua... it'd truly be interesting to know if any descended through.

Kent

Cool, thanks for the tip as I will look that up! I can see the bloody basin area from this area and could see that a signal would work.




Kent, again, excellent points. From my understanding in talking with the park ranger at the Homolovi (Hopi) ruins near Winslow.
He said the Old Ones would be Hopi, they migrated up, out of the South. Who knows...?

From my understanding, Anasazi is an offensive term to the Native American. It means "the enemy" it is no longer used to describe a tribe.

Also the no pottery issue probably excludes the pueblos.

I've found pottery in areas that had no living ruins close. But on ridges that had a small ring of rock and would be perfect for trade routes from the valley to Tonto basin. The rings big enough to hold a couple sleeping traders. Tonto basin ruins have alot of seashell bracelets and effigies that could only come from Baja or the Pacific.

Them indians broke pots all over the place and they're still on the ground.

Kent

For the nothing it would be worth, I agree with this - Kent has seen quite a bit more of it all than have I. The old dwelling places are very different from these walls.

Sycamore - hope you get to go - some of those old folks locations up in Bloody Basin are neat. At times, I really miss that "west of the Verde" country, and those white tail that range from there up to Horner Mtn.

Wonder if they had to change the name of the bean (related to the pinto) they grow up in Dove Creek Co? LOL

It's Navajo I think, for ancient ones... doubt anyone knows what they actually called themselves, same with the others... So because of PC, what are they called now?

Kent

Anasazi is more politics. It's a Navajo word, can be translated "ancient enemies". Hopis don't like that, they like "hisat sinom" (in Hopi, ancient people)

So lot of archs use "ancestral puebloans" now.

Sycamore

Well, if the navajos named them the ancient enemy and they now live where the anasazi lived, I guess they knew what they were talking about... PC be damned... it's a badassed name to be proud of regardless.

Kent

LOL... i agree....

Bet you guys recognize this....i took these pics while hunting Coues.

That's cool!

My grandfather was born in Prescott and my mom in Clarkdale, she went to HS in Cottonwood then ASU. But I really haven't spent much time exploring that country. The salt river lakes and country are close to where I've lived my whole life and I spend most of my outdoor time east of the valley.

Kent

looks like Robbers Roost, on the south side of Casner?

Sycamore

It's interesting where those first pictures are at, since i have been buy there a gillion times without thinking about it, Hidden in plain sight so to speak. Across the road so to speak, further to the east, there are some more sites. I think a lot of them personally were line of sight. I have been all over perry mesa, having had access to a 1930's vintage topo of which i made a copy.
At that time they were still marking the sites of ruins. My own feeling is a LOT of them were defensive in nature. Another opinion is as a settlement became overgrown, the kids just moved down the road. I have seen smoke damage on some of them. And people don't burn calories to build seven foot walls in difficult places that are defendable without reason.
There was a "new Times" article a number of years ago about a guy at A.S.U. that was ticking off the local tribes with his comments about warfare, cannibalism, and so on. I have heard estimates of as many as 15k of people on perry mesa at it's heighth. As arrid conditions, overpopulation, driving food sources away, it's easy to understand that point of view. I have found red obsidian at some of them, which i don't think occurs naturally in arizona. I have been told it comes from the great lakes area.

mostly, unless you run into a cave dwelling, what you will find is the foundation filled in by the remains of the adobe walls, that over time have fallen in and filled the interior of the structure.
It is a distinct feeling at dusk, to be sitting on the edge of a canyon, in one of those old settlements, and look down at the rock, and realize that was where the knifemaker did his trade many moons ago.
On some of them, i get the hair on my neck standing up, they were not friendly times, and some of that i think still lingers.

by the way, they are slowly, but surely, cutting off access to some of the ruins on perry mesa, i saw road blocks etc up there last summer. Sycamore, you want to go in there just say the word and i is ready to go, same for su35.

There are a LOT of ruins around phx. I use to go on a hiking trail, very popular, in the midst of the city. Hundreds of people use it daily. There are probably four or five that know there ruins within 20 feet of that roadway. The lady that gave me access to the topo map was NOT willing to share where she took some pictures of cliff dwellings, still had the tools, ladders and so on there, within 50miles of phoenix.

It is interesting at times, Paul, how so many of our life experiences overlap. Pat McGee was a lifelong friend of my father.

There are ruins in the perry mesa area, where the walls are at least seven feet tall. I have been to them, and some of them I g.p.s. marked, as they are not real easy to find with vegetation changes.
Without giving to much of it away, going north on I17 to the sunset point rest stop, if you were to look to your right, there is a ruin within eyesight accross the canyon.

Red green and black are found in Oregon. Look up Glass Butte.

Don't give it all away Ron.

Scott, I forgot we went to this Salado ruin in Globe.

It's been partially reconstructed in a park next to the basketball courts... LOL

SU35, thanks, your pics of that area cause me to want to go back over there and wander for a while.


Hope you guys go - wish I could join ya'.

Ron, I spent a lot of time with Pat - free consulting, I suppose - when the tribe was starting to develop that entire strip out across Bullwhacker and beyond toward PV, and in very quiet talks with her about the potential casino venture when they were first developing the Sheraton. She did not want a casino and, due to respect for her and her leadership, the younger ones settled for tha bingo operation across the highway untill she passed away. Kind, simple, loving and very smart lady.

Kent, wow, nice pics!

I'm game for always getting out. There is so much to see.

I have not forgotten my friend. It stands in my mind as a real high point.

I am working an a couple of financial things that may allow be to return to your part of the world in a year or so. I would love to see more.

The door's always open...

Kent

Thanks.

This reminds me I need to bump the get together thread coming in Feb, we're having it a Roosevelt lake and there's thousands of ruins there.

Anyway, either on the grapevine or schoolhouse campground road, thirty years ago, I decided to shoot some rabbits midday after fishing. Walking off the side of the road a bit I hit a ruin and it seemed to never quit, more than a football field big and hundreds of rooms... and there's ruins bigger than that under the lake.

If anyone that comes wants to check some out it'll be easy. There's also the small cliff dwellings within a couple miles.

Kent

Many of those unassuming little hills on the north side of the valley have ruins on top of them - right smack in the middle of developed areas, and the current residents have no clue.

Let me know.

Don't remember the year, early 90's anyway, when Roosevelt virtually dried up there was a huge ruin exposed at the NW end towards Punkin Center and another down at the east end, with a whole bunch of smaller ones all over. Spent an enjoyable morning reconning 'em by Cessna. Neat stuff.

Last time the lake was way down 7 or 8 years ago, there was a huge mound (multi level ruin that makes a hill when it collapses over time) that was out of the water a few feet. While fishing the edges sometimes half an olla would be washed out, pot shards everywhere. Probably never been dug by pot hunters.

Some have estimated there were a hundred thousand folks living in Tonto Basin back then, It'd be a sight to see, all those roof tops and fire smokes.

Kent

Cool discussion, the reason the campfire survives is this type of discourse.

Going to be in Tucson in April, if you had time to see just one close to Tucson which ruin/park/settlement would you chose?

Thank you guys for sharing. Very interesting.

I love this stuff also.

Let me know when you get into town.

In terms of ruins, are you looking for out of the way places that one has to hike to gain access or easy access with large ruins that are kept by the park service etc?

if you want to see some interesting stuff, that i am drawn too, not just indian ruins, try this link:
Still got to get down to johnny ringo's gravesite.
http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/az/az.html

From what I know Ringo's gravesite is on private property. Last I heard it was closed off but that was a while back.

Thanks for the link, my dad used to take us to ghost towns when my brother and I were just boys...some great memories.

ETA: Looks like from the link, you can check-in with the owners and see the grave. I will have to do that sometime soon.

The straight man reads the title of this thread and wonders which the Indians ran to when the thunder and lightning came...

San Xavier is a spanish/mexican/indian church outside of town, built around the time of the American Revolution, and still going strong. Casa Grande is some adobe indian ruins about 50 miles away (guess).

Sycamore

I love this stuff! I think it would be great to spend a few weeks wandering around the 4 corners area. I found one undocumented site by accident while hunting, it really had a profound effect on me.

A couple of bird effigies an elk hunter showed me he found. He didn't really understand what he had... I said 'nice'... LOL

Black Obsidian is found in New Mexico.

I could never find it in the native state until I had a guide carry me to a spot I had been looking for and just kept missing by short distance.
The guide is the interesting part of this story.

On this trip, first one to meet my new in laws, it would have to be accessible so Park run would be best. Longer term I am definitely into hiking in the less traveled places.

I am NOT an expert - just an explorer - but seems not so easy in So AZ as it is further north. IMHO, the lifestyles of the Papago (they adopted a new name) did not lend so much to such ruins/artifacts, and the Yaquis (or whatever were those that came up from Mexico) seem similar. Out in SW AZ, roaming the Cocopah and Quechan areas also tended to give little - most of them still live along the S. Colorado in the same old traditional spots. Even up to the Salt River/Gila areas (Casa Grande) - seems like those were mostly agricultural/herding folks and did not leave much stuff behind.

From Tucson, if you go E/N to the traditional Apache areas - even over into the Chiricahuas - much more likely to find remaining evidences. Once again - no expertise on my part - just a lot of looking.

The Hohokam from Phoenix going south built with adobe, had huge settlements, made some of the irrigation systems we still use here in the valley, even ball fields similar to the Aztecs. But besides mounded dirt and broken pottery, not much can easily be seen. Burials were cremations covered by upside down pots, shallow, hard to find in large areas. Whole pots are worth mucho bucks, many found by backhoe diggers in foundations, septic tank holes,ect. Mesa is built on top of old civilizations. Digging a half basement on my dad's property close to the Salt river we hit shards but no pots.

Towards Florence and on the Gila is a mix of Salado/Hohokam culture. Rock wall pueblos and cremation burial. Locally these are called Gila ruins, possibly just pothunter slang to differentiate. Gila run right up to Superior and Queen creek with Salado mostly north of there.

Salado are probably decedents of Anasazi that stopped running south at Globe as the areas west and south were occupied by Hohokam, which they traded with some.

The trade route ridges I mentioned earlier run from the Verde at Fountain hills straight to Four Peaks and over to Tonto basin. Four peaks is covered with Salado ruins.

Now, I have found huge Hohokam shard fields from Florence Jt all the way to Oracle Jt. The one at Oracle Jt I was quail hunting and couldn't seem to ever find an end. Shards everywhere.

I found this little ruin right under the Mogollon rim next to a spring, pottery is always the giveaway...

A two roomer with a view...

Lots of stuff south of tucson. Just gottaget out a bit....

Was out looking for Russian Feral's this evening and found this in the middle of nowwhere.



This wall was close to 8' high. There was a room here.
Walls had fallen down.




This is what is interesting. While busting through thick brush on this ruin I came on this. The rock on top was broken and beneath that rock were these (out of place)small rocks, flint type. I found them as you see them.
One had been chipped or worked on to make into a sharp instrument of some kind.

Anyone tell me what the holes were for, or how they were made. I've seen holes in rocks like this before on Verde River ruins.




Indian ruin rifle porn.......:)

Are the holes like horizontal post holes?

Hard to say, don't think it would be for that purpose.

Found another ruin today. This one had at least 30 rooms and plenty of pottery on the ground.

Those first ones are likely made by whites if there is no pottery. And indians had no use for shooting ports as they didn't have appropriate weapons for shooting out of them..