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http://leagueofthesouth.com/independence-the-souths-only-option/#comment-2237


Long ago, Rev. Robert Lewis Dabney, a Presbyterian divine and Confederate officer on Stonewall Jackson�s staff, wrote this of American (i.e. yankee) Conservatism:

�[American Conservativism] is a party which never conserves anything. Its history has been that it demurs to each aggression of the progressive party, and aims to save its credit by a respectable amount of growling, but always acquiesces at last in the innovation. What was the resisted novelty of yesterday is today one of the accepted principles of conservatism � American conservatism is merely the shadow that follows Radicalism as it moves forward towards perdition � Its impotency is not hard, indeed, to explain. It is worthless because it is the conservatism of expediency only, and not of sturdy principle. It intends to risk nothing serious for the sake of the truth, and has no idea of being guilty of the folly of martyrdom � The only practical purpose which it now subserves in American politics is to give enough exercise to Radicalism to keep it �in wind,� and to prevent its becoming pursy and lazy from having nothing to whip.�

The upshot of all this is simple, really. Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation. It is broken and beyond reform. Neither place trust in the GOP or Democrat establishments. Both are corrupt and self serving.
__________________________________________

Mike Hill in his insistence that DC is corrupt beyond reform and hopeless is near about the only sensible thing I have heard espoused politically in the last seven years when I first stumbled upon the LOS
Quote
The upshot of all this is simple, really. Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation. It is broken and beyond reform. Neither place trust in the GOP or Democrat establishments. Both are corrupt and self serving.


While this is true, it is also a fact that we are stuck with it for the time being. Every man should be striving to improve our government. It will not be all at once and will seem to take forever, if it can be done at all. miles
Originally Posted by Robert_White
http://leagueofthesouth.com/independence-the-souths-only-option/#comment-2237


Long ago, Rev. Robert Lewis Dabney, a Presbyterian divine and Confederate officer on Stonewall Jackson�s staff, wrote this of American (i.e. yankee) Conservatism:

�[American Conservativism] is a party which never conserves anything. Its history has been that it demurs to each aggression of the progressive party, and aims to save its credit by a respectable amount of growling, but always acquiesces at last in the innovation. What was the resisted novelty of yesterday is today one of the accepted principles of conservatism � American conservatism is merely the shadow that follows Radicalism as it moves forward towards perdition � Its impotency is not hard, indeed, to explain. It is worthless because it is the conservatism of expediency only, and not of sturdy principle. It intends to risk nothing serious for the sake of the truth, and has no idea of being guilty of the folly of martyrdom � The only practical purpose which it now subserves in American politics is to give enough exercise to Radicalism to keep it �in wind,� and to prevent its becoming pursy and lazy from having nothing to whip.�

The upshot of all this is simple, really. Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation. It is broken and beyond reform. Neither place trust in the GOP or Democrat establishments. Both are corrupt and self serving.
__________________________________________

Mike Hill in his insistence that DC is corrupt beyond reform and hopeless is near about the only sensible thing I have heard espoused politically in the last seven years when I first stumbled upon the LOS
There's much truth in what he says, I'm afraid.
My big take away from the quote & it's date is that people have been saying what you are for a long, long time.

Dabney was an elder statesman in the Church and his general writings as well as his theological treatises are extremely valuable today. Thanks for posting it Robert.

"Put not your faith in princes"
Nah. Derby is right. Since no nation lasts forever and no candidate is perfect, it doesn't matter who is elected. cool
Astute folks on this board have been saying the same for 5 years... but like back then it's not what they do, it's what we do about it.

Kent
Originally Posted by eyeball
Nah. Derby is right. Since no nation lasts forever and no candidate is perfect, it doesn't matter who is elected. cool
Just the other day there was a callout thread about how Massachusetts is just as good as Tennessee...or Kansas or Texas. Up there you can actually carry a gun, as long as it's unloaded...and locked up in the trunk...and the popo don't catch you with it.
Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
Originally Posted by eyeball
Nah. Derby is right. Since no nation lasts forever and no candidate is perfect, it doesn't matter who is elected. cool
Just the other day there was a callout thread about how Massachusetts is just as good as Tennessee...or Kansas or Texas. Up there you can actually carry a gun, as long as it's unloaded...and locked up in the trunk...and the popo don't catch you with it.


That is the thing I just don't get. People will get on here and rail against Massachusetts, California, or some other communist state and tell us how they are dragging the country down. Yet, they will never ask the simple question, "Why do I even want to be in the same country as people who think like that?" And of course, if you even suggest the idea, they get all huffy about it.

I've come to the conclusion, that in this country at least, most people are so hopelessly indoctrinated on all that "Truth, justice, and the American way..." mess that they just turn off of their brains and don't even consider what is actually going on what the costs are. In short, they would rather be like people in the old Soviet Union and be able to brag about "kicking ass" around the world, than to be the freest people in the history of the world and be like Switzerland.
our nation is based on the premise of freedom for individual citizens


no more right for us that believe in a much smaller gov't, less taxation and other conservative principles to ram down the throat of progressives our ideals when we get a momentary grasp of the reins of power

than it is for them to be forcing their "ideal" socialistic country upon us.


we need to split the country in at least two if anything resembling our Constitution is to survive imo.
Originally Posted by 2legit2quit
our nation is based on the premise of freedom for individual citizens


no more right for us that believe in a much smaller gov't, less taxation and other conservative principles to ram down the throat of progressives our ideals when we get a momentary grasp of the reins of power

than it is for them to be forcing their "ideal" socialistic country upon us.


we need to split the country in at least two if anything resembling our Constitution is to survive imo.


Some of us told you that a long time ago and our ancestors tried it.

I will say that our ideas are superior, or at least mine are. I require nothing of anyone other than to leave me alone. THAT is a morally superior position to any other.
Quote
The upshot of all this is simple, really. Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation.


I've got news for ya, God doesn't give a flip about your "temporal salvation". The Bible is full of blatant statements that the people who serve God will be mistreated, persecuted and often poor.

I've heard lots of talk about it being God's will that Christians would unite and overthrow the government, and that's a tragic misunderstanding of our role in this life.
Originally Posted by JoeBob
Some of us told you that a long time ago and our ancestors tried it.

I will say that our ideas are superior, or at least mine are. I require nothing of anyone other than to leave me alone. THAT is a morally superior position to any other.
+1
Same pile of $h!t just a new swarm of flies.
Originally Posted by Robert_White
http://leagueofthesouth.com/independence-the-souths-only-option/#comment-2237


Long ago, Rev. Robert Lewis Dabney, a Presbyterian divine and Confederate officer on Stonewall Jackson�s staff, wrote this of American (i.e. yankee) Conservatism:

�[American Conservativism] is a party which never conserves anything. Its history has been that it demurs to each aggression of the progressive party, and aims to save its credit by a respectable amount of growling, but always acquiesces at last in the innovation. What was the resisted novelty of yesterday is today one of the accepted principles of conservatism � American conservatism is merely the shadow that follows Radicalism as it moves forward towards perdition � Its impotency is not hard, indeed, to explain. It is worthless because it is the conservatism of expediency only, and not of sturdy principle. It intends to risk nothing serious for the sake of the truth, and has no idea of being guilty of the folly of martyrdom � The only practical purpose which it now subserves in American politics is to give enough exercise to Radicalism to keep it �in wind,� and to prevent its becoming pursy and lazy from having nothing to whip.�

The upshot of all this is simple, really. Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation. It is broken and beyond reform. Neither place trust in the GOP or Democrat establishments. Both are corrupt and self serving.
__________________________________________

Mike Hill in his insistence that DC is corrupt beyond reform and hopeless is near about the only sensible thing I have heard espoused politically in the last seven years when I first stumbled upon the LOS


The Right Rev.Dabney is dead on about conservatism. Conservatism is the reason I became a small (l)ibertarian and anarchist and a staunch supporter of confederalism.
Originally Posted by eyeball
Nah. Derby is right. Since no nation lasts forever and no candidate is perfect, it doesn't matter who is elected. cool


I said no empire last forever. I also never said no candidate is perfect so it doesn't matter.

What I tried to imply is that Federalist politicians are the only electable politicians for federal office especially for president. No Anti-federalist (confederate, limited government) politician will ever be elected to the office of president so it doesn't matter who gets the office or what party they are from it will be business as usual.
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Quote
The upshot of all this is simple, really. Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation.


I've got news for ya, God doesn't give a flip about your "temporal salvation". The Bible is full of blatant statements that the people who serve God will be mistreated, persecuted and often poor.

I've heard lots of talk about it being God's will that Christians would unite and overthrow the government, and that's a tragic misunderstanding of our role in this life.


In other words Thomas (Bluedreaux) Hobbes, life is nasty, brutish and short.
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Quote
The upshot of all this is simple, really. Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation.


I've got news for ya, God doesn't give a flip about your "temporal salvation". The Bible is full of blatant statements that the people who serve God will be mistreated, persecuted and often poor.

I've heard lots of talk about it being God's will that Christians would unite and overthrow the government, and that's a tragic misunderstanding of our role in this life.

Usually your posts are pretty well thought out but I believe you may have misinterpreted that statement entirely.

temporal - "relating to worldly as opposed to spiritual affairs; secular"
Salvation - "a source or means of being saved from harm, ruin, or loss"

Rephrasing; place no hope in Washington as your source of being saved from worldly harm or ruin.

That I agree with entirely. And I don't think we will ever improve any government until we get politicians out of it, which is a deliberately stated paradox.

Power corrupts, men seek government office for power (or vice versa, the end result is the same). Look elsewhere for hope, you won't find it in any government, ever.
Originally Posted by derby_dude
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Quote
The upshot of all this is simple, really. Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation.


I've got news for ya, God doesn't give a flip about your "temporal salvation". The Bible is full of blatant statements that the people who serve God will be mistreated, persecuted and often poor.

I've heard lots of talk about it being God's will that Christians would unite and overthrow the government, and that's a tragic misunderstanding of our role in this life.


In other words Thomas (Bluedreaux) Hobbes, life is nasty, brutish and short.


It's always been interesting to me that in the garden God found Adam while "walking in the cool of the day". Seems to me that even God enjoyed what he made.

I enjoy the creation as well and my life is grand. But that's mostly because I've got my eyes set on something better, so the problems of life aren't as problematic for me as they are for some.
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Quote
The upshot of all this is simple, really. Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation.


I've got news for ya, God doesn't give a flip about your "temporal salvation". The Bible is full of blatant statements that the people who serve God will be mistreated, persecuted and often poor.

I've heard lots of talk about it being God's will that Christians would unite and overthrow the government, and that's a tragic misunderstanding of our role in this life.

Usually your posts are pretty well thought out but I believe you may have misinterpreted that statement entirely.

Rephrasing; place no hope in Washington as your source of being saved from worldly harm or ruin.


I may have misunderstood it. I agree with your rephrasation completely.
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Quote
The upshot of all this is simple, really. Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation.


I've got news for ya, God doesn't give a flip about your "temporal salvation". The Bible is full of blatant statements that the people who serve God will be mistreated, persecuted and often poor.

I've heard lots of talk about it being God's will that Christians would unite and overthrow the government, and that's a tragic misunderstanding of our role in this life.



I agree completely that the bible indicates suffering and death for the testimony of Christ, truth and righteousness and when I do wind my mind around political problems it seems like a futile exercise.

Nonetheless I think that a serious Christian should seek a just society because there is a burden on our conscience towards our fellow man; such as the work that you do directly to arrest lawbreakers and protect the innocent.

It would seem that there is a high concentration of people who still believe in "the laws of nature and of nature's God" who live in Dixie. Very few it seems who live up north.

Secession would be a great good thing.

I only go to work for the paycheck. Nothing more or less.

I get your point, just wanted to clarify that I'm essentially a whore in a car with flashy lights.
Great.. another member who's going to end up on the evening news..
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
I only go to work for the paycheck. Nothing more or less.

I get your point, just wanted to clarify that I'm essentially a whore in a car with flashy lights.


LOL...

Thing is though; you do right by your fellow man.
Originally Posted by Robert_White


I agree completely that the bible indicates suffering and death for the testimony of Christ, truth and righteousness and when I do wind my mind around political problems it seems like a futile exercise.

Nonetheless I think that a serious Christian should seek a just society because there is a burden on our conscience towards our fellow man; such as the work that you do directly to arrest lawbreakers and protect the innocent.

It would seem that there is a high concentration of people who still believe in "the laws of nature and of nature's God" who live in Dixie. Very few it seems who live up north.

Secession would be a great good thing.



What are "the laws of nature and of nature's God"?
Originally Posted by Rancho_Loco
Great.. another member who's going to end up on the evening news..


Done been there. It was terrible. Women were crying, lawyers were screaming for justice, pictures of the battered "victim" were shown.....and y'all missed it!!!!!!

So neener-neener-neener!!! Even when I'm flying high, I still stay below the radar.
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
I only go to work for the paycheck. Nothing more or less.

I get your point, just wanted to clarify that I'm essentially a whore in a car with flashy lights.


I know what you mean I prepare taxes for a pay check nothing more or nothing less.
Originally Posted by derby_dude
Originally Posted by Robert_White


I agree completely that the bible indicates suffering and death for the testimony of Christ, truth and righteousness and when I do wind my mind around political problems it seems like a futile exercise.

Nonetheless I think that a serious Christian should seek a just society because there is a burden on our conscience towards our fellow man; such as the work that you do directly to arrest lawbreakers and protect the innocent.

It would seem that there is a high concentration of people who still believe in "the laws of nature and of nature's God" who live in Dixie. Very few it seems who live up north.

Secession would be a great good thing.



What are "the laws of nature and of nature's God"?


You are not familiar with Blackstone? And Jefferson?
Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
Originally Posted by eyeball
Nah. Derby is right. Since no nation lasts forever and no candidate is perfect, it doesn't matter who is elected. cool
Just the other day there was a callout thread about how Massachusetts is just as good as Tennessee...or Kansas or Texas. Up there you can actually carry a gun, as long as it's unloaded...and locked up in the trunk...and the popo don't catch you with it.


That is the thing I just don't get. People will get on here and rail against Massachusetts, California, or some other communist state and tell us how they are dragging the country down. Yet, they will never ask the simple question, "Why do I even want to be in the same country as people who think like that?" And of course, if you even suggest the idea, they get all huffy about it.

I've come to the conclusion, that in this country at least, most people are so hopelessly indoctrinated on all that "Truth, justice, and the American way..." mess that they just turn off of their brains and don't even consider what is actually going on what the costs are. In short, they would rather be like people in the old Soviet Union and be able to brag about "kicking ass" around the world, than to be the freest people in the history of the world and be like Switzerland.


Why do I even want to be in the same country as people who think like that...

This is very profound. I am sorry I missed it and did not comment at the time.

Originally Posted by Robert_White
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Quote
The upshot of all this is simple, really. Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation.


I've got news for ya, God doesn't give a flip about your "temporal salvation". The Bible is full of blatant statements that the people who serve God will be mistreated, persecuted and often poor.

I've heard lots of talk about it being God's will that Christians would unite and overthrow the government, and that's a tragic misunderstanding of our role in this life.



I agree completely that the bible indicates suffering and death for the testimony of Christ, truth and righteousness and when I do wind my mind around political problems it seems like a futile exercise.

Nonetheless I think that a serious Christian should seek a just society because there is a burden on our conscience towards our fellow man; such as the work that you do directly to arrest lawbreakers and protect the innocent.

It would seem that there is a high concentration of people who still believe in "the laws of nature and of nature's God" who live in Dixie. Very few it seems who live up north.

Secession would be a great good thing.



"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.."

How does this trespass upon your "the laws of nature and nature's god" (and which god do you believe that is), to such an extend that you think you need to succeed again?

How did that work out for you last time?
Originally Posted by Robert_White
Originally Posted by derby_dude
Originally Posted by Robert_White


I agree completely that the bible indicates suffering and death for the testimony of Christ, truth and righteousness and when I do wind my mind around political problems it seems like a futile exercise.

Nonetheless I think that a serious Christian should seek a just society because there is a burden on our conscience towards our fellow man; such as the work that you do directly to arrest lawbreakers and protect the innocent.

It would seem that there is a high concentration of people who still believe in "the laws of nature and of nature's God" who live in Dixie. Very few it seems who live up north.

Secession would be a great good thing.



What are "the laws of nature and of nature's God"?


You are not familiar with Blackstone? And Jefferson?


He didn't say that.

He wants you to define it and say what it means to you so we can discuss it.
You realize that the bill of rights restricts the actions of the federal government not the states?

Mass had a state church until 1830; Congregationalist. VA dis-established voluntarily on her own due to the arguments of Jefferson and Madison, not at the coercion of the newly formed federal government.
They would not have abided that.

For starts.

New York/Boston/ Northeast socialists have a totally different view of our Republic than do the historic states of the old Confederacy. Why should their humanistic atheistic childmurder sodomy values be forced off on us?

Ireland struggled for hundreds of years with several failed attempts at secession.
He didn't say that.

He wants you to define it and say what it means to you so we can discuss it.
_____________________________________

We have been over it many times and Blackstones defintions are out there for all the world to read.

I just want you anti-God folks to stand up flat footed and boldly damn scorn mock reject and ridicule the founders directly instead of standing me up as a straw man for your convenience.
Originally Posted by Robert_White
You realize that the bill of rights restricts the actions of the federal government not the states?

Mass had a state church until 1830; Congregationalist. VA dis-established voluntarily on her own due to the arguments of Jefferson and Madison, not at the coercion of the newly formed federal government.
They would not have abided that.

For starts.

New York/Boston/ Northeast socialists have a totally different view of our Republic than do the historic states of the old Confederacy. Why should their humanistic atheistic childmurder sodomy values be forced off on us?

Ireland struggled for hundreds of years with several failed attempts at secession.


There is more then 10 amendments to the Constitution. You seen to forget that after that little war you lost, we added a few more so the good Southern Christians who believed in Natures God, couldn't keep slaves, and required them to extend the protections of the rule of law to all people. In the process the protections of the Bill of Rights were also extended to cover the states:

From the 14th Amendment:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
This North versus South thingy cracks me up. Unless you lived at that time you have no clue WTF was going on. Ranting on a soap box 150 years after the fact is so phhuxking stupid.

There is no North, South, East or West anymore....give it up for criss sakes.
They kind of remind me of progressive northern blacks who want
financial restitution/reparations for all the free labor there ancestors provided.

Reparations for slavery is a proposal that some type of compensation should be provided to the descendants of enslaved people in the United States, in consideration of the coerced and uncompensated labor their ancestors performed over centuries. This compensation has been proposed in a variety of forms, from individual monetary payments to land-based compensation schemes related to independence. The idea remains highly controversial and no broad consensus exists as to how it could be implemented. There have been similar calls for reparations from some Caribbean countries[1] and elsewhere in the African diaspora, and some African countries have called for reparations to their states for the loss of their population.[2][3]

The arguments surrounding reparations are based on the formal discussion about many different reparations and actual land reparations received by African-Americans which were later taken away. In 1865, after the Confederate States of America were defeated in the American Civil War, General William Tecumseh Sherman issued Special Field Orders, No. 15 to both "assure the harmony of action in the area of operations"[4] and to solve problems caused by the masses of freed slaves, a temporary plan granting each freed family forty acres of tillable land in the sea islands and around Charleston, South Carolina for the exclusive use of black people who had been enslaved. The army also had a number of unneeded mules which were given to settlers. Around 40,000 freed slaves were settled on 400,000 acres (1,600 km�) in Georgia and South Carolina. However, President Andrew Johnson reversed the order after Lincoln was assassinated and the land was returned to its previous owners. In 1867, Thaddeus Stevens sponsored a bill for the redistribution of land to African Americans, but it was not passed.

Reconstruction came to an end in 1877 without the issue of reparations having been addressed. Thereafter, a deliberate movement of regression and oppression arose in southern states. Jim Crow laws passed in some southeastern states to reinforce the existing inequality that slavery had produced. In addition white extremist organizations such as the Ku Klux Klan engaged in a massive campaign of intimidation throughout the Southeast in order to keep African Americans in their prescribed social place. For decades this assumed inequality and injustice was ruled on in court decisions and debated in public discourse.

Reparation for slavery in what is now the United States is a complicated issue. Any proposal for reparations must take into account the role of the, then relatively newly formed, United States government in the importation and enslavement of Africans and that of the older and established European countries that created the colonies in which slavery was legal; as well as their efforts to stop the trade in slaves. It must also consider if and how much modern Americans have benefited from the importation and enslavement of Africans since the end of the slave trade in 1865. Profit from slavery was not limited to a particular region: New England merchants profited from the importation of slaves, while Southern planters profited from the continued enslavement of Africans. In a 2007 column in The New York Times, historian Eric Foner writes:

[In] the Colonial era, Southern planters regularly purchased imported slaves, and merchants in New York and New England profited handsomely from the trade.
The American Revolution threw the slave trade and slavery itself into crisis. In the run-up to war, Congress banned the importation of slaves as part of a broader nonimportation policy. During the War of Independence, tens of thousands of slaves escaped to British lines. Many accompanied the British out of the country when peace arrived.
Inspired by the ideals of the Revolution, most of the newly independent American states banned the slave trade. But importation resumed to South Carolina and Georgia, which had been occupied by the British during the war and lost the largest number of slaves.
The slave trade was a major source of disagreement at the Constitutional Convention of 1787. South Carolina�s delegates were determined to protect slavery, and they had a powerful impact on the final document. They originated the three-fifths clause (giving the South extra representation in Congress by counting part of its slave population) and threatened disunion if the slave trade were banned, as other states demanded.
The result was a compromise barring Congress from prohibiting the importation of slaves until 1808. Some Anti-Federalists, as opponents of ratification were called, cited the slave trade clause as a reason why the Constitution should be rejected, claiming it brought shame upon the new nation....
As slavery expanded into the Deep South, a flourishing internal slave trade replaced importation from Africa. Between 1808 and 1860, the economies of older states like Virginia came increasingly to rely on the sale of slaves to the cotton fields of Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana. But demand far outstripped supply, and the price of slaves rose inexorably, placing ownership outside the reach of poorer Southerners.[5]

Proposals for reparations
United States government

Some proposals have called for direct payments from the U.S. government. One such proposal delivered in the McCormick Convention Center conference room for the first National Reparations Convention by Howshua Amariel, a Chicago social activist, would require the federal government to make reparations to proven descendants of slaves. In addition, Amariel stated "For those blacks who wish to remain in America, they should receive reparations in the form of free education, free medical, free legal and free financial aid for 50 years with no taxes levied," and "For those desiring to leave America, every black person would receive a million dollars or more, backed by gold, in reparation." At the convention Amariel's proposal received approval from the 100 or so participants,[6] nevertheless the question of who would receive such payments, who should pay them and in what amount, has remained highly controversial,[7][8] since the United States Census does not track descent from slaves or slave owners and relies on self-reported racial categories.

Various estimates have been given if such payments were to be made. Harper's Magazine has created an estimate that the total of reparations due is over 100 trillion dollars, based on 222,505,049 hours of forced labor between 1619 and 1865, with a compounded interest of 6%.[9] Should all or part of this amount be paid to the descendants of slaves in the United States, the current U.S. government would only pay a fraction of that cost, over 40 trillion dollars, since it has been in existence only since 1789.

The Rev. M.J. Divine, better known as Father Divine, was one of the earliest leaders to argue clearly for "retroactive compensation" and the message was spread via International Peace Mission publications. On July 28, 1951, Father Divine issued a "peace stamp" bearing the text: "Peace! All nations and peoples who have suppressed and oppressed the under-privileged, they will be obliged to pay the African slaves and their descendants for all uncompensated servitude and for all unjust compensation, whereby they have been unjustly deprived of compensation on the account of previous condition of servitude and the present condition of servitude. This is to be accomplished in the defense of all other under-privileged subjects and must be paid retroactive up-to-date".[10]

On July 30, 2008, the United States House of Representatives passed a resolution apologizing for American slavery and subsequent discriminatory laws.[11]

Some states have also apologized for slavery, including Maryland, Virginia and North Carolina. Duke University public policy professor William "Sandy" Darity said such apologies are a first step, but compensation is also necessary.

In April 2010, Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates in a New York Times editorial advised reparations activists to consider the African role in the slave trade in regards to who should shoulder the cost of reparations.[12]
Ex-colonial governments
Question book-new.svg
This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (December 2008)

The full cost of slavery reparations prior to 1776 would be borne by the governments of the European countries (Spain, the United Kingdom, and France) who governed North America at that time[why?]. One additional problem is that the governments in power in the 17th and 18th centuries in Europe are not still in power now. France, for example, has gone through several forms of government since it was last a colonial power in North America. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to hold the current French government liable for the enslavement of Africans that previous governments encouraged and benefited from between the 17th century up to the Louisiana Purchase in 1803.
Private institutions

Private institutions and corporations were also involved in slavery. On March 8, 2000, Reuters News Service reported that Deadria Farmer-Paellmann, a law school graduate, initiated a one-woman campaign making a historic demand for restitution and apologies from modern companies that played a direct role in enslaving Africans. Aetna Inc. was her first target because of their practice of writing life insurance policies on the lives of enslaved Africans with slave owners as the beneficiaries. In response to Farmer-Paellmann's demand, Aetna Inc. issued a public apology, and the "corporate restitution movement" was born.[not specific enough to verify]

By 2002, nine lawsuits were filed around the country coordinated by Farmer-Paellmann and the Restitution Study Group�a New York non-profit. The litigation included 20 plaintiffs demanding restitution from 20 companies from the banking, insurance, textile, railroad, and tobacco industries. The cases were consolidated under 28 U.S.C. � 1407 to multidistrict litigation in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Illinois. The district court dismissed the lawsuits with prejudice, and the claimants appealed to the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.

On December 13, 2006, that Court, in an opinion written by Judge Richard Posner, modified the district court's judgment to be a dismissal without prejudice, affirmed the majority of the district court's judgment, and reversed the portion of the district court's judgment dismissing the plaintiffs' consumer protection claims, remanding the case for further proceedings consistent with its opinion [1]. Thus, the plaintiffs may bring the lawsuit again, but must clear considerable procedural and substantive hurdles first:

If one or more of the defendants violated a state law by transporting slaves in 1850, and the plaintiffs can establish standing to sue, prove the violation despite its antiquity, establish that the law was intended to provide a remedy (either directly or by providing the basis for a common law action for conspiracy, conversion, or restitution) to lawfully enslaved persons or their descendants, identify their ancestors, quantify damages incurred, and persuade the court to toll the statute of limitations, there would be no further obstacle to the grant of relief.[13]

In October 2000, California passed a Slavery Era Disclosure Law requiring insurance companies doing business there to report on their role in slavery. The disclosure legislation, introduced by Senator Tom Hayden, is the prototype for similar laws passed in 12 states around the United States.[citation needed]

The NAACP has called for more of such legislation at local and corporate levels. It quotes Dennis C. Hayes, CEO of the NAACP, as saying, "Absolutely, we will be pursuing reparations from companies that have historical ties to slavery and engaging all parties to come to the table."[14] Brown University, whose namesake family was involved in the slave trade, has also established a committee to explore the issue of reparations. In February 2007, Brown University announced a set of responses[15] to its Steering Committee on Slavery and Justice.[16] While in 1995 the Southern Baptist Convention apologized for the "sins" of racism, including slavery.[17]

In December 2005, a boycott was called by a coalition of reparations groups under the sponsorship of the Restitution Study Group. The boycott targets the student loan products of banks deemed complicit in slavery�particularly those identified in the Farmer-Paellmann litigation. As part of the boycott students are asked to choose from other banks to finance their student loans."[18]

In 2005, JP Morgan Chase and Wachovia both apologized for their connections to slavery.[19][20]
Social services
[icon] This section requires expansion. (December 2008)

A number of supporters for reparations[who?] advocate that compensation should be in the form of community rehabilitation and not payments to individual descendants.[8]
Arguments for reparations
Accumulated wealth

In 2008 the American Humanist Association published an article which argued that if emancipated slaves had been allowed to possess and retain the profits of their labor, their descendants might now control a much larger share of American social and monetary wealth.[21] Not only did the freedmen and -women not receive a share of these profits, but they were stripped of the small amounts of compensation paid to some of them during Reconstruction. The wealth of the United States, they say, was greatly enhanced by the exploitation of African American slave labor.[22] According to this view, reparations would be valuable primarily as a way of correcting modern economic imbalance.
Precedents

Under the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, signed into law by President Ronald Reagan, the U.S. government apologized for Japanese American internment during World War II and provided reparations of $20,000 to each survivor, to compensate for loss of property and liberty during that period. For many years, Native American tribes have received compensation for lands ceded to the United States by them in various treaties. Other countries have also opted to pay reparations for past grievances, such as the German government making reparations to survivors of the Holocaust.[23]
Arguments against reparations
Relocation of injustice

The principal argument against reparations is that their cost would not be imposed upon the perpetrators of slavery who were a very small percentage of society with 4.8% of southern whites (only 1.4% of all whites in the country)[citation needed], nor confined to those who can be shown to be the specific indirect beneficiaries of slavery, but would simply be indiscriminately borne by taxpayers per se. Those making this argument often add that the descendants of white abolitionists and soldiers in the Union Army might be taxed to fund reparations despite the sacrifices their ancestors already made to end slavery.

In the case of Public Lands, European colonizers forcibly relocated[24] many Southeastern Native American tribes. One argument against reparations is that in assigning public lands to African-Americans for the enslavement of their ancestors, a greater and further wrong would be committed against the Southeastern Native Americans[25] who have ancestral claims and treaty rights to that same land.[not specific enough to verify]

In addition, several historians, such as Jo�o C. Curto, have made important contributions to the global understanding of the African side of the Atlantic slave trade. By arguing that African merchants determined the assemblage of trade goods accepted in exchange for slaves, many historians argue for African agency and ultimately a shared responsibility for the slave trade.[26]
Identification of victims and of levels of victimization

Identification of actual descendants of slaves would be an enormous undertaking, because such descent is not simply identical with present racial self-identification. And levels of actual victimization would be impossible to identify; had freed slaves been given their recoverable damages, they may have followed different patterns of marriage and of reproduction, and in some cases would not have made their offspring the sole or even principal heirs to their estates. (Opponents of reparations refer to the lost wealth of slaves as �dissipated�, not in the sense of simply having ceased to exist, but in the sense of being untraceable and transmitted elsewhere.)[citation needed]
Comparative utility

It has been argued that reparations for slavery cannot be justified on the basis that slave descendants are subjectively worse off as a result of slavery, because it has been suggested that they are better off than they would have been in Africa if the slave trade had never happened. The slave population in the US grew six-fold after the importation of slaves was ceased, an action taken to protect the domestic market for native-born slaves and justified on the basis of greater internal security - persons born into slavery were thought to be easier to control than those captured and forced into it. In all other countries following the cessation of international slave importation the slave population either did not increase or declined. This reflects the demands of the growing market for slaves in the US; higher birth rates were economically valuable to slave owners. Birth survival rates exceeded that of poor whites and were twice that of Africa in the same era[citation needed]. In addition, each state had laws against the abuse of slaves.

In Up From Slavery, former slave Booker T. Washington wrote,

I have long since ceased to cherish any spirit of bitterness against the Southern white people on account of the enslavement of my race. No one section of our country was wholly responsible for its introduction... Having once got its tentacles fastened on to the economic and social life of the Republic, it was no easy matter for the country to relieve itself of the institution. Then, when we rid ourselves of prejudice, or racial feeling, and look facts in the face, we must acknowledge that, notwithstanding the cruelty and moral wrong of slavery, the ten million Negroes inhabiting this country, who themselves or whose ancestors went through the school of American slavery, are in a stronger and more hopeful condition, materially, intellectually, morally, and religiously, than is true of an equal number of black people in any other portion of the globe....This I say, not to justify slavery � on the other hand, I condemn it as an institution, as we all know that in America it was established for selfish and financial reasons, and not from a missionary motive � but to call attention to a fact, and to show how Providence so often uses men and institutions to accomplish a purpose. When persons ask me in these days how, in the midst of what sometimes seem hopelessly discouraging conditions, I can have such faith in the future of my race in this country, I remind them of the wilderness through which and out of which, a good Providence has already led us.[27]

Conservative commentator David Horowitz writes,

The claim for reparations is premised on the false assumption that only whites have benefited from slavery. If slave labor created wealth for Americans, then obviously it has created wealth for black Americans as well, including the descendants of slaves. The GNP of black America is so large that it makes the African-American community the 10th most prosperous "nation" in the world. American blacks on average enjoy per capita incomes in the range of twenty to fifty times that of blacks living in any of the African nations from which they were taken.[28]

Legal argument against reparations

Many legal experts point to the fact that slavery was not illegal in the United States[29] prior to the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (ratified in 1865). Thus, there is no legal foundation for compensating the descendants of slaves for the crime against their ancestors when, in strictly legal terms, no crime was committed. Chattel slavery is now considered by the overwhelming majority in the United States to be highly immoral, though it was perfectly legal at the time. However, opponents of this legal argument contend that such was the case in Nazi Germany, whereby the activities of the Nazis were legal under German law; however, unlike slavery, the German activities were precedented by the Allied Powers following WWI, which could not rule against the German government then due to lack of precedent, but could do so afterward following WWII on the basis of this established WWI precedent.

Other legal experts[who?] point to the fact that the current U.S. government did not exist prior to June 21, 1788 when the United States Constitution was ratified. Therefore, they say the U.S. government inherited the institution of slavery, and cannot be held legally liable for the enslavement of Africans by Europeans prior to that time. Figuring out who was enslaved by whom in order to fairly apply reparations from the U.S. government only to those who were enslaved under U.S. laws, would be an impossible task.

Some areas of the South had communities of freedman, such as existed in Savannah, Charleston and New Orleans, while in the North, for example, former slaves lived as freedman both before and after the creation of the United States in 1788. For example, in 1667 Dutch colonists freed some of their slaves and gave them property in what is now Manhattan.[30][31] The descendants of Groote and Christina Manuell�two of those freed slaves�can trace their family's history as freedman back to the child of Groote and Christina, Nicolas Manuell, whom they consider their family's first freeborn African-American. In 1712, the British, then in control of New York, prohibited blacks from inheriting land, effectively ending property ownership for this family. While this is only one example out of thousands of enslaved persons, it does mean that not all slavery reparations can be determined by racial self-identification alone; reparations would have to include a determination of the free or slave status of one's African-American ancestors, as well as when and by whom they were enslaved and denied rights such as property ownership. Because of slavery, the original African heritage has been blended with the American experience, the same as it has been for generations of immigrants from other countries. For this reason, determining a "fair share" of reparations would be an impossible task.

Another legal argument against reparations for slavery from a legal standpoint (as opposed to a moral standpoint) is that the statute of limitations for filing lawsuits has long since passed. Thus, courts are prohibited from granting relief. This has been used effectively in several suits, including "In re African American Slave Descendants", which dismissed a high-profile suit against a number of businesses with ties to slavery.[citation needed]

Another argument against reparations (though this is not a legal argument) is that few African-Americans are of "pure" African blood since the offspring of the original slaves were occasionally the progeny of Caucasian male masters (and a variety of White males) by means of rape, concubinage or threat and forcibly slave-breeding of African female slaves.[dubious � discuss]
Reparations could cause increased racism

Anti-reparations advocates argue reparations payments based on race alone would be perceived by nearly everyone as a monstrous injustice, embittering many, and inevitably setting back race relations. In this view, apologetic feelings some whites may hold because of slavery and past civil rights injustices would, to a significant extent, be replaced by anger.[citation needed]

The Libertarian Party, among other groups and individuals, has suggested that reparations would make racism worse:

A renewed demand by African-Americans for slavery reparations should be rejected because such payments would only increase racial hostility...[32]

A leading work against reparations is David Horowitz, Uncivil Wars: The Controversy Over Reparations for Slavery (2002). Other works that discuss problems with reparations, include John Torpey, Making Whole What Has Been Smashed: On Reparations Politics (2006), Alfred Brophy, Reparations Pro and Con (2006), Nahshon Perez, Freedom from Past Injustices (Edinburgh University Press, 2012).

There is also a technical problem with identifying those who should be entitled to exemptions because of their ancestral opposition to Slavery. In particular, there was a significant Anti-Slavery Resistance Movement among the German and Mexican Texans during the Civil War [2] which effectively negated the gains from New Mexico [3] by choking off supplies.



dave
nor shall any State deprive any person of life


Physician heal thyself. Despite the Yankee reconstruction amendments over 50 million innocent children have been killed in the womb via centralized fiat decreed law from the so called supreme court.

In 1973 every state in the old Confederacy had criminal abortion laws.

The immoral horror of plantation slavery painted in its worst possible light doesn't even come close to the magnitude of the evil of the state sanctioned/subsidized contractual murder of helpless innocent children.

Just for starts.

Y'all misread and misunderstand me I am thinking. I am not looking back to whitewash my father's sins or the sins of the south. I am looking forward.

A seperated southern republic would not be perfect but it would be a lot less vile than what we got now. I am certain of that.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Robert_White
You realize that the bill of rights restricts the actions of the federal government not the states?

Mass had a state church until 1830; Congregationalist. VA dis-established voluntarily on her own due to the arguments of Jefferson and Madison, not at the coercion of the newly formed federal government.
They would not have abided that.

For starts.

New York/Boston/ Northeast socialists have a totally different view of our Republic than do the historic states of the old Confederacy. Why should their humanistic atheistic childmurder sodomy values be forced off on us?

Ireland struggled for hundreds of years with several failed attempts at secession.


There is more then 10 amendments to the Constitution. You seen to forget that after that little war you lost, we added a few more so the good Southern Christians who believed in Natures God, couldn't keep slaves, and required them to extend the protections of the rule of law to all people. In the process the protections of the Bill of Rights were also extended to cover the states:

From the 14th Amendment:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


That says "privileges", not "rights". Like you, I am glad it does say "privileges". Much better for the government at all levels to maintain control of what is allowed that way.

Very shrewd how the only mention of "inalienable rights" came at a time that leaders needed warm bodies manning weapons to overcome the glass ceiling of the Crown that prevented the top tier of the new world from being sovereign.
Originally Posted by Robert_White
nor shall any State deprive any person of life


Physician heal thyself. Despite the Yankee reconstruction amendments over 50 million innocent children have been killed in the womb via centralized fiat decreed law from the so called supreme court.

In 1973 every state in the old Confederacy had criminal abortion laws.

The immoral horror of plantation slavery painted in its worst possible light doesn't even come close to the magnitude of the evil of the state sanctioned/subsidized contractual murder of helpless innocent children.

Just for starts.

Y'all misread and misunderstand me I am thinking. I am not looking back to whitewash my father's sins or the sins of the south. I am looking forward.

A seperated southern republic would not be perfect but it would be a lot less vile than what we got now. I am certain of that.


You want the Confederacy to rise again as a Christian Theocracy.

We understood you perfectly.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Robert_White
nor shall any State deprive any person of life


Physician heal thyself. Despite the Yankee reconstruction amendments over 50 million innocent children have been killed in the womb via centralized fiat decreed law from the so called supreme court.

In 1973 every state in the old Confederacy had criminal abortion laws.

The immoral horror of plantation slavery painted in its worst possible light doesn't even come close to the magnitude of the evil of the state sanctioned/subsidized contractual murder of helpless innocent children.

Just for starts.

Y'all misread and misunderstand me I am thinking. I am not looking back to whitewash my father's sins or the sins of the south. I am looking forward.

A seperated southern republic would not be perfect but it would be a lot less vile than what we got now. I am certain of that.


You want the Confederacy to rise again as a Christian Theocracy.

We understood you perfectly.


Yep, the only time christianity should be mentioned is during times of strife when man power is needed.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Robert_White
nor shall any State deprive any person of life


Physician heal thyself. Despite the Yankee reconstruction amendments over 50 million innocent children have been killed in the womb via centralized fiat decreed law from the so called supreme court.

In 1973 every state in the old Confederacy had criminal abortion laws.

The immoral horror of plantation slavery painted in its worst possible light doesn't even come close to the magnitude of the evil of the state sanctioned/subsidized contractual murder of helpless innocent children.

Just for starts.

Y'all misread and misunderstand me I am thinking. I am not looking back to whitewash my father's sins or the sins of the south. I am looking forward.

A seperated southern republic would not be perfect but it would be a lot less vile than what we got now. I am certain of that.


You want the Confederacy to rise again as a Christian Theocracy.

We understood you perfectly.


Yep, perfectly. We (true Southerners) want no part of any tyranny; neither Yankee nor Baptist Taliban.

The perversion of "freedom" done by either is horrific.
Originally Posted by Robert_White
Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
Originally Posted by eyeball
Nah. Derby is right. Since no nation lasts forever and no candidate is perfect, it doesn't matter who is elected. cool
Just the other day there was a callout thread about how Massachusetts is just as good as Tennessee...or Kansas or Texas. Up there you can actually carry a gun, as long as it's unloaded...and locked up in the trunk...and the popo don't catch you with it.


That is the thing I just don't get. People will get on here and rail against Massachusetts, California, or some other communist state and tell us how they are dragging the country down. Yet, they will never ask the simple question, "Why do I even want to be in the same country as people who think like that?" And of course, if you even suggest the idea, they get all huffy about it.

I've come to the conclusion, that in this country at least, most people are so hopelessly indoctrinated on all that "Truth, justice, and the American way..." mess that they just turn off of their brains and don't even consider what is actually going on what the costs are. In short, they would rather be like people in the old Soviet Union and be able to brag about "kicking ass" around the world, than to be the freest people in the history of the world and be like Switzerland.


Why do I even want to be in the same country as people who think like that...

This is very profound. I am sorry I missed it and did not comment at the time.




If I were to have my way, Alaska if not independent would at least be autonomous. They can keep their gaddam bribe money and their grubby land-grabbing mitts to themselves.
I want no part of your Marxist atheistic tyranny...

I want EXACTLY what Virginia fought for in the first and second revolutions...

What you guys are doing is called reverse-engineered-anachronistic-hermenuetics.

You are superimposing your modern-education-coolaid onto the founders. You are not being honest with the founders, not at all.

You both belong in France fighing the French Revolution.
Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that essential ideas and structures around which lives and lifestyles are arranged are mere politics and that politics is something that is separate and apart from lives and lifestyles.

The only issue that those on this board even begin to come close to understanding the divide is on firearms. Only there, do they seem to begin to grasp the idea that another's "politics" might have a very real impact on one's life.

Oh, and most of the dimwits around here, particularly the ones who like to beat the South to death with the slavery issue, mistake egalitarianism for freedom when in fact, it is the exact opposite of freedom and the system most inimical to it.
Originally Posted by stevelyn

If I were to have my way, Alaska if not independent would at least be autonomous. They can keep their gaddam bribe money and their grubby land-grabbing mitts to themselves.
Y'all would be part of Russia with your oil being pumped to Moscow within five years.
I wish it would start tomorrow. It is long over due.
Originally Posted by Robert_White
I want no part of your Marxist atheistic tyranny...

I want EXACTLY what Virginia fought for in the first and second revolutions...

What you guys are doing is called reverse-engineered-anachronistic-hermenuetics.

You are superimposing your modern-education-coolaid onto the founders. You are not being honest with the founders, not at all.

You both belong in France fighting the French Revolution.


Bob, as usual, your logic fails. Yes, I am an Atheist, but Atheism is not a worldview. It is a position on a single proposition. My worldview is more informed by my Skepticism then my atheism, and it's my Skepticism that lead me to the evidence that Marxism does not work. Conflating all atheist with Marxist is a double fallacy of conflation and ad hominem combined.

As for your statement regarding "reverse-engineered-anachronistic-hermenuetics", is that what you call applying the 14th Amendment to the bill of rights and insisting the states respect the rights of all people, not just white people? Or is that you way of saying your Southern ancestors really were justified in their chattel slavery, because that's what Virginia, a slave state, fought for?
Originally Posted by wilkeshunter
I wish it would start tomorrow. It is long over due.
What are you waiting for, badazz? Somebody has to start it, you be da man!
Originally Posted by wilkeshunter
I wish it would start tomorrow. It is long over due.


Last time there was over 600,000 dead.

How many will die if you kick it off again?
you crackers are pretty impressive once y'all get fired up, good thread.
�What to the Slave Is the Fourth of July?�

Frederick Douglass
July 5, 1852
Mr. President, Friends and Fellow Citizens:

He who could address this audience without a quailing sensation, has stronger nerves than I have. I do not remember ever to have appeared as a speaker before any assembly more shrinkingly, nor with greater distrust of my ability, than I do this day. A feeling has crept over me, quite unfavorable to the exercise of my limited powers of speech. The task before me is one which requires much previous thought and study for its proper performance. I know that apologies of this sort are generally considered flat and unmeaning. I trust, however, that mine will not be so considered. Should I seem at ease, my appearance would much misrepresent me. The little experience I have had in addressing public meetings, in country schoolhouses, avails me nothing on the present occasion.

The papers and placards say, that I am to deliver a 4th [of] July oration. This certainly sounds large, and out of the common way, for it is true that I have often had the privilege to speak in this beautiful Hall, and to address many who now honor me with their presence. But neither their familiar faces, nor the perfect gage I think I have of Corinthian Hall, seems to free me from embarrassment.

The fact is, ladies and gentlemen, the distance between this platform and the slave plantation, from which I escaped, is considerable � and the difficulties to be overcome in getting from the latter to the former, are by no means slight. That I am here to-day is, to me, a matter of astonishment as well as of gratitude. You will not, therefore, be surprised, if in what I have to say I evince no elaborate preparation, nor grace my speech with any high sounding exordium. With little experience and with less learning, I have been able to throw my thoughts hastily and imperfectly together; and trusting to your patient and generous indulgence, I will proceed to lay them before you.

This, for the purpose of this celebration, is the 4th of July. It is the birthday of your National Independence, and of your political freedom. This, to you, is what the Passover was to the emancipated people of God. It carries your minds back to the day, and to the act of your great deliverance; and to the signs, and to the wonders, associated with that act, and that day. This celebration also marks the beginning of another year of your national life; and reminds you that the Republic of America is now 76 years old. I am glad, fellow-citizens, that your nation is so young. Seventy-six years, though a good old age for a man, is but a mere speck in the life of a nation. Three score years and ten is the allotted time for individual men; but nations number their years by thousands. According to this fact, you are, even now, only in the beginning of your national career, still lingering in the period of childhood. I repeat, I am glad this is so. There is hope in the thought, and hope is much needed, under the dark clouds which lower above the horizon. The eye of the reformer is met with angry flashes, portending disastrous times; but his heart may well beat lighter at the thought that America is young, and that she is still in the impressible stage of her existence. May he not hope that high lessons of wisdom, of justice and of truth, will yet give direction to her destiny? Were the nation older, the patriot�s heart might be sadder, and the reformer�s brow heavier. Its future might be shrouded in gloom, and the hope of its prophets go out in sorrow. There is consolation in the thought that America is young. Great streams are not easily turned from channels, worn deep in the course of ages. They may sometimes rise in quiet and stately majesty, and inundate the land, refreshing and fertilizing the earth with their mysterious properties. They may also rise in wrath and fury, and bear away, on their angry waves, the accumulated wealth of years of toil and hardship. They, however, gradually flow back to the same old channel, and flow on as serenely as ever. But, while the river may not be turned aside, it may dry up, and leave nothing behind but the withered branch, and the unsightly rock, to howl in the abyss-sweeping wind, the sad tale of departed glory. As with rivers so with nations.

Fellow-citizens, I shall not presume to dwell at length on the associations that cluster about this day. The simple story of it is that, 76 years ago, the people of this country were British subjects. The style and title of your �sovereign people� (in which you now glory) was not then born. You were under the British Crown. Your fathers esteemed the English Government as the home government; and England as the fatherland. This home government, you know, although a considerable distance from your home, did, in the exercise of its parental prerogatives, impose upon its colonial children, such restraints, burdens and limitations, as, in its mature judgment, it deemed wise, right and proper.

But, your fathers, who had not adopted the fashionable idea of this day, of the infallibility of government, and the absolute character of its acts, presumed to differ from the home government in respect to the wisdom and the justice of some of those burdens and restraints. They went so far in their excitement as to pronounce the measures of government unjust, unreasonable, and oppressive, and altogether such as ought not to be quietly submitted to. I scarcely need say, fellow-citizens, that my opinion of those measures fully accords with that of your fathers. Such a declaration of agreement on my part would not be worth much to anybody. It would, certainly, prove nothing, as to what part I might have taken, had I lived during the great controversy of 1776. To say now that America was right, and England wrong, is exceedingly easy. Everybody can say it; the dastard, not less than the noble brave, can flippantly discant on the tyranny of England towards the American Colonies. It is fashionable to do so; but there was a time when to pronounce against England, and in favor of the cause of the colonies, tried men�s souls. They who did so were accounted in their day, plotters of mischief, agitators and rebels, dangerous men. To side with the right, against the wrong, with the weak against the strong, and with the oppressed against the oppressor! here lies the merit, and the one which, of all others, seems unfashionable in our day. The cause of liberty may be stabbed by the men who glory in the deeds of your fathers. But, to proceed.

Feeling themselves harshly and unjustly treated by the home government, your fathers, like men of honesty, and men of spirit, earnestly sought redress. They petitioned and remonstrated; they did so in a decorous, respectful, and loyal manner. Their conduct was wholly unexceptionable. This, however, did not answer the purpose. They saw themselves treated with sovereign indifference, coldness and scorn. Yet they persevered. They were not the men to look back.

As the sheet anchor takes a firmer hold, when the ship is tossed by the storm, so did the cause of your fathers grow stronger, as it breasted the chilling blasts of kingly displeasure. The greatest and best of British statesmen admitted its justice, and the loftiest eloquence of the British Senate came to its support. But, with that blindness which seems to be the unvarying characteristic of tyrants, since Pharaoh and his hosts were drowned in the Red Sea, the British Government persisted in the exactions complained of.

The madness of this course, we believe, is admitted now, even by England; but we fear the lesson is wholly lost on our present ruler.

Oppression makes a wise man mad. Your fathers were wise men, and if they did not go mad, they became restive under this treatment. They felt themselves the victims of grievous wrongs, wholly incurable in their colonial capacity. With brave men there is always a remedy for oppression. Just here, the idea of a total separation of the colonies from the crown was born! It was a startling idea, much more so, than we, at this distance of time, regard it. The timid and the prudent (as has been intimated) of that day, were, of course, shocked and alarmed by it.

Such people lived then, had lived before, and will, probably, ever have a place on this planet; and their course, in respect to any great change, (no matter how great the good to be attained, or the wrong to be redressed by it), may be calculated with as much precision as can be the course of the stars. They hate all changes, but silver, gold and copper change! Of this sort of change they are always strongly in favor.

These people were called Tories in the days of your fathers; and the appellation, probably, conveyed the same idea that is meant by a more modern, though a somewhat less euphonious term, which we often find in our papers, applied to some of our old politicians.

Their opposition to the then dangerous thought was earnest and powerful; but, amid all their terror and affrighted vociferations against it, the alarming and revolutionary idea moved on, and the country with it.

On the 2d of July, 1776, the old Continental Congress, to the dismay of the lovers of ease, and the worshipers of property, clothed that dreadful idea with all the authority of national sanction. They did so in the form of a resolution; and as we seldom hit upon resolutions, drawn up in our day whose transparency is at all equal to this, it may refresh your minds and help my story if I read it. �Resolved, That these united colonies are, and of right, ought to be free and Independent States; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown; and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain is, and ought to be, dissolved.�

Citizens, your fathers made good that resolution. They succeeded; and to-day you reap the fruits of their success. The freedom gained is yours; and you, therefore, may properly celebrate this anniversary. The 4th of July is the first great fact in your nation�s history � the very ring-bolt in the chain of your yet undeveloped destiny.

Pride and patriotism, not less than gratitude, prompt you to celebrate and to hold it in perpetual remembrance. I have said that the Declaration of Independence is the ring-bolt to the chain of your nation�s destiny; so, indeed, I regard it. The principles contained in that instrument are saving principles. Stand by those principles, be true to them on all occasions, in all places, against all foes, and at whatever cost.

From the round top of your ship of state, dark and threatening clouds may be seen. Heavy billows, like mountains in the distance, disclose to the leeward huge forms of flinty rocks! That bolt drawn, that chain broken, and all is lost. Cling to this day � cling to it, and to its principles, with the grasp of a storm-tossed mariner to a spar at midnight.

The coming into being of a nation, in any circumstances, is an interesting event. But, besides general considerations, there were peculiar circumstances which make the advent of this republic an event of special attractiveness.

The whole scene, as I look back to it, was simple, dignified and sublime.

The population of the country, at the time, stood at the insignificant number of three millions. The country was poor in the munitions of war. The population was weak and scattered, and the country a wilderness unsubdued. There were then no means of concert and combination, such as exist now. Neither steam nor lightning had then been reduced to order and discipline. From the Potomac to the Delaware was a journey of many days. Under these, and innumerable other disadvantages, your fathers declared for liberty and independence and triumphed.

Fellow Citizens, I am not wanting in respect for the fathers of this republic. The signers of the Declaration of Independence were brave men. They were great men too � great enough to give fame to a great age. It does not often happen to a nation to raise, at one time, such a number of truly great men. The point from which I am compelled to view them is not, certainly, the most favorable; and yet I cannot contemplate their great deeds with less than admiration. They were statesmen, patriots and heroes, and for the good they did, and the principles they contended for, I will unite with you to honor their memory.

They loved their country better than their own private interests; and, though this is not the highest form of human excellence, all will concede that it is a rare virtue, and that when it is exhibited, it ought to command respect. He who will, intelligently, lay down his life for his country, is a man whom it is not in human nature to despise. Your fathers staked their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor, on the cause of their country. In their admiration of liberty, they lost sight of all other interests.

They were peace men; but they preferred revolution to peaceful submission to bondage. They were quiet men; but they did not shrink from agitating against oppression. They showed forbearance; but that they knew its limits. They believed in order; but not in the order of tyranny. With them, nothing was �settled� that was not right. With them, justice, liberty and humanity were �final;� not slavery and oppression. You may well cherish the memory of such men. They were great in their day and generation. Their solid manhood stands out the more as we contrast it with these degenerate times.

How circumspect, exact and proportionate were all their movements! How unlike the politicians of an hour! Their statesmanship looked beyond the passing moment, and stretched away in strength into the distant future. They seized upon eternal principles, and set a glorious example in their defense. Mark them!

Fully appreciating the hardship to be encountered, firmly believing in the right of their cause, honorably inviting the scrutiny of an on-looking world, reverently appealing to heaven to attest their sincerity, soundly comprehending the solemn responsibility they were about to assume, wisely measuring the terrible odds against them, your fathers, the fathers of this republic, did, most deliberately, under the inspiration of a glorious patriotism, and with a sublime faith in the great principles of justice and freedom, lay deep the corner-stone of the national superstructure, which has risen and still rises in grandeur around you.

Of this fundamental work, this day is the anniversary. Our eyes are met with demonstrations of joyous enthusiasm. Banners and pennants wave exultingly on the breeze. The din of business, too, is hushed. Even Mammon seems to have quitted his grasp on this day. The ear-piercing fife and the stirring drum unite their accents with the ascending peal of a thousand church bells. Prayers are made, hymns are sung, and sermons are preached in honor of this day; while the quick martial tramp of a great and multitudinous nation, echoed back by all the hills, valleys and mountains of a vast continent, bespeak the occasion one of thrilling and universal interest � a nation�s jubilee.

Friends and citizens, I need not enter further into the causes which led to this anniversary. Many of you understand them better than I do. You could instruct me in regard to them. That is a branch of knowledge in which you feel, perhaps, a much deeper interest than your speaker. The causes which led to the separation of the colonies from the British crown have never lacked for a tongue. They have all been taught in your common schools, narrated at your firesides, unfolded from your pulpits, and thundered from your legislative halls, and are as familiar to you as household words. They form the staple of your national poetry and eloquence.

I remember, also, that, as a people, Americans are remarkably familiar with all facts which make in their own favor. This is esteemed by some as a national trait � perhaps a national weakness. It is a fact, that whatever makes for the wealth or for the reputation of Americans, and can be had cheap! will be found by Americans. I shall not be charged with slandering Americans, if I say I think the American side of any question may be safely left in American hands.

I leave, therefore, the great deeds of your fathers to other gentlemen whose claim to have been regularly descended will be less likely to be disputed than mine!

My business, if I have any here to-day, is with the present. The accepted time with God and his cause is the ever-living now.

Trust no future, however pleasant,
Let the dead past bury its dead;
Act, act in the living present,
Heart within, and God overhead.

We have to do with the past only as we can make it useful to the present and to the future. To all inspiring motives, to noble deeds which can be gained from the past, we are welcome. But now is the time, the important time. Your fathers have lived, died, and have done their work, and have done much of it well. You live and must die, and you must do your work. You have no right to enjoy a child�s share in the labor of your fathers, unless your children are to be blest by your labors. You have no right to wear out and waste the hard-earned fame of your fathers to cover your indolence. Sydney Smith tells us that men seldom eulogize the wisdom and virtues of their fathers, but to excuse some folly or wickedness of their own. This truth is not a doubtful one. There are illustrations of it near and remote, ancient and modern. It was fashionable, hundreds of years ago, for the children of Jacob to boast, we have �Abraham to our father,� when they had long lost Abraham�s faith and spirit. That people contented themselves under the shadow of Abraham�s great name, while they repudiated the deeds which made his name great. Need I remind you that a similar thing is being done all over this country to-day? Need I tell you that the Jews are not the only people who built the tombs of the prophets, and garnished the sepulchres of the righteous? Washington could not die till he had broken the chains of his slaves. Yet his monument is built up by the price of human blood, and the traders in the bodies and souls of men shout � �We have Washington to our father.� � Alas! that it should be so; yet so it is.

The evil that men do, lives after them, The good is oft-interred with their bones.

Fellow-citizens, pardon me, allow me to ask, why am I called upon to speak here to-day? What have I, or those I represent, to do with your national independence? Are the great principles of political freedom and of natural justice, embodied in that Declaration of Independence, extended to us? and am I, therefore, called upon to bring our humble offering to the national altar, and to confess the benefits and express devout gratitude for the blessings resulting from your independence to us?

Would to God, both for your sakes and ours, that an affirmative answer could be truthfully returned to these questions! Then would my task be light, and my burden easy and delightful. For who is there so cold, that a nation�s sympathy could not warm him? Who so obdurate and dead to the claims of gratitude, that would not thankfully acknowledge such priceless benefits? Who so stolid and selfish, that would not give his voice to swell the hallelujahs of a nation�s jubilee, when the chains of servitude had been torn from his limbs? I am not that man. In a case like that, the dumb might eloquently speak, and the �lame man leap as an hart.�

But, such is not the state of the case. I say it with a sad sense of the disparity between us. I am not included within the pale of this glorious anniversary! Your high independence only reveals the immeasurable distance between us. The blessings in which you, this day, rejoice, are not enjoyed in common. � The rich inheritance of justice, liberty, prosperity and independence, bequeathed by your fathers, is shared by you, not by me. The sunlight that brought life and healing to you, has brought stripes and death to me. This Fourth [of] July is yours, not mine. You may rejoice, I must mourn. To drag a man in fetters into the grand illuminated temple of liberty, and call upon him to join you in joyous anthems, were inhuman mockery and sacrilegious irony. Do you mean, citizens, to mock me, by asking me to speak to-day? If so, there is a parallel to your conduct. And let me warn you that it is dangerous to copy the example of a nation whose crimes, lowering up to heaven, were thrown down by the breath of the Almighty, burying that nation in irrecoverable ruin! I can to-day take up the plaintive lament of a peeled and woe-smitten people!

�By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down. Yea! we wept when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. For there, they that carried us away captive, required of us a song; and they who wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How can we sing the Lord�s song in a strange land? If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth.�

Fellow-citizens; above your national, tumultuous joy, I hear the mournful wail of millions! whose chains, heavy and grievous yesterday, are, to-day, rendered more intolerable by the jubilee shouts that reach them. If I do forget, if I do not faithfully remember those bleeding children of sorrow this day, �may my right hand forget her cunning, and may my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth!� To forget them, to pass lightly over their wrongs, and to chime in with the popular theme, would be treason most scandalous and shocking, and would make me a reproach before God and the world. My subject, then fellow-citizens, is AMERICAN SLAVERY. I shall see, this day, and its popular characteristics, from the slave�s point of view. Standing, there, identified with the American bondman, making his wrongs mine, I do not hesitate to declare, with all my soul, that the character and conduct of this nation never looked blacker to me than on this 4th of July! Whether we turn to the declarations of the past, or to the professions of the present, the conduct of the nation seems equally hideous and revolting. America is false to the past, false to the present, and solemnly binds herself to be false to the future. Standing with God and the crushed and bleeding slave on this occasion, I will, in the name of humanity which is outraged, in the name of liberty which is fettered, in the name of the constitution and the Bible, which are disregarded and trampled upon, dare to call in question and to denounce, with all the emphasis I can command, everything that serves to perpetuate slavery � the great sin and shame of America! �I will not equivocate; I will not excuse;� I will use the severest language I can command; and yet not one word shall escape me that any man, whose judgment is not blinded by prejudice, or who is not at heart a slaveholder, shall not confess to be right and just.

But I fancy I hear some one of my audience say, it is just in this circumstance that you and your brother abolitionists fail to make a favorable impression on the public mind. Would you argue more, and denounce less, would you persuade more, and rebuke less, your cause would be much more likely to succeed. But, I submit, where all is plain there is nothing to be argued. What point in the anti-slavery creed would you have me argue? On what branch of the subject do the people of this country need light? Must I undertake to prove that the slave is a man? That point is conceded already. Nobody doubts it. The slaveholders themselves acknowledge it in the enactment of laws for their government. They acknowledge it when they punish disobedience on the part of the slave. There are seventy-two crimes in the State of Virginia, which, if committed by a black man, (no matter how ignorant he be), subject him to the punishment of death; while only two of the same crimes will subject a white man to the like punishment. What is this but the acknowledgement that the slave is a moral, intellectual and responsible being? The manhood of the slave is conceded. It is admitted in the fact that Southern statute books are covered with enactments forbidding, under severe fines and penalties, the teaching of the slave to read or to write. When you can point to any such laws, in reference to the beasts of the field, then I may consent to argue the manhood of the slave. When the dogs in your streets, when the fowls of the air, when the cattle on your hills, when the fish of the sea, and the reptiles that crawl, shall be unable to distinguish the slave from a brute, then will I argue with you that the slave is a man!

For the present, it is enough to affirm the equal manhood of the Negro race. Is it not astonishing that, while we are ploughing, planting and reaping, using all kinds of mechanical tools, erecting houses, constructing bridges, building ships, working in metals of brass, iron, copper, silver and gold; that, while we are reading, writing and cyphering, acting as clerks, merchants and secretaries, having among us lawyers, doctors, ministers, poets, authors, editors, orators and teachers; that, while we are engaged in all manner of enterprises common to other men, digging gold in California, capturing the whale in the Pacific, feeding sheep and cattle on the hill-side, living, moving, acting, thinking, planning, living in families as husbands, wives and children, and, above all, confessing and worshipping the Christian�s God, and looking hopefully for life and immortality beyond the grave, we are called upon to prove that we are men!

Would you have me argue that man is entitled to liberty? that he is the rightful owner of his own body? You have already declared it. Must I argue the wrongfulness of slavery? Is that a question for Republicans? Is it to be settled by the rules of logic and argumentation, as a matter beset with great difficulty, involving a doubtful application of the principle of justice, hard to be understood? How should I look to-day, in the presence of Americans, dividing, and subdividing a discourse, to show that men have a natural right to freedom? speaking of it relatively, and positively, negatively, and affirmatively. To do so, would be to make myself ridiculous, and to offer an insult to your understanding. � There is not a man beneath the canopy of heaven, that does not know that slavery is wrong for him.

What, am I to argue that it is wrong to make men brutes, to rob them of their liberty, to work them without wages, to keep them ignorant of their relations to their fellow men, to beat them with sticks, to flay their flesh with the lash, to load their limbs with irons, to hunt them with dogs, to sell them at auction, to sunder their families, to knock out their teeth, to burn their flesh, to starve them into obedience and submission to their masters? Must I argue that a system thus marked with blood, and stained with pollution, is wrong? No! I will not. I have better employments for my time and strength than such arguments would imply.

What, then, remains to be argued? Is it that slavery is not divine; that God did not establish it; that our doctors of divinity are mistaken? There is blasphemy in the thought. That which is inhuman, cannot be divine! Who can reason on such a proposition? They that can, may; I cannot. The time for such argument is passed.

At a time like this, scorching irony, not convincing argument, is needed. O! had I the ability, and could I reach the nation�s ear, I would, to-day, pour out a fiery stream of biting ridicule, blasting reproach, withering sarcasm, and stern rebuke. For it is not light that is needed, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake. The feeling of the nation must be quickened; the conscience of the nation must be roused; the propriety of the nation must be startled; the hypocrisy of the nation must be exposed; and its crimes against God and man must be proclaimed and denounced.

What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer: a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciations of tyrants, brass fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade, and solemnity, are, to him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy � a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices, more shocking and bloody, than are the people of these United States, at this very hour.

Go where you may, search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms of the old world, travel through South America, search out every abuse, and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me, that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival.

Take the American slave-trade, which, we are told by the papers, is especially prosperous just now. Ex-Senator Benton tells us that the price of men was never higher than now. He mentions the fact to show that slavery is in no danger. This trade is one of the peculiarities of American institutions. It is carried on in all the large towns and cities in one-half of this confederacy; and millions are pocketed every year, by dealers in this horrid traffic. In several states, this trade is a chief source of wealth. It is called (in contradistinction to the foreign slave-trade) �the internal slave trade.� It is, probably, called so, too, in order to divert from it the horror with which the foreign slave-trade is contemplated. That trade has long since been denounced by this government, as piracy. It has been denounced with burning words, from the high places of the nation, as an execrable traffic. To arrest it, to put an end to it, this nation keeps a squadron, at immense cost, on the coast of Africa. Everywhere, in this country, it is safe to speak of this foreign slave-trade, as a most inhuman traffic, opposed alike to the laws of God and of man. The duty to extirpate and destroy it, is admitted even by our DOCTORS OF DIVINITY. In order to put an end to it, some of these last have consented that their colored brethren (nominally free) should leave this country, and establish themselves on the western coast of Africa! It is, however, a notable fact that, while so much execration is poured out by Americans upon those engaged in the foreign slave-trade, the men engaged in the slave-trade between the states pass without condemnation, and their business is deemed honorable.

Behold the practical operation of this internal slave-trade, the American slave-trade, sustained by American politics and America religion. Here you will see men and women reared like swine for the market. You know what is a swine-drover? I will show you a man-drover. They inhabit all our Southern States. They perambulate the country, and crowd the highways of the nation, with droves of human stock. You will see one of these human flesh-jobbers, armed with pistol, whip and bowie-knife, driving a company of a hundred men, women, and children, from the Potomac to the slave market at New Orleans. These wretched people are to be sold singly, or in lots, to suit purchasers. They are food for the cotton-field, and the deadly sugar-mill. Mark the sad procession, as it moves wearily along, and the inhuman wretch who drives them. Hear his savage yells and his blood-chilling oaths, as he hurries on his affrighted captives! There, see the old man, with locks thinned and gray. Cast one glance, if you please, upon that young mother, whose shoulders are bare to the scorching sun, her briny tears falling on the brow of the babe in her arms. See, too, that girl of thirteen, weeping, yes! weeping, as she thinks of the mother from whom she has been torn! The drove moves tardily. Heat and sorrow have nearly consumed their strength; suddenly you hear a quick snap, like the discharge of a rifle; the fetters clank, and the chain rattles simultaneously; your ears are saluted with a scream, that seems to have torn its way to the center of your soul! The crack you heard, was the sound of the slave-whip; the scream you heard, was from the woman you saw with the babe. Her speed had faltered under the weight of her child and her chains! that gash on her shoulder tells her to move on. Follow the drove to New Orleans. Attend the auction; see men examined like horses; see the forms of women rudely and brutally exposed to the shocking gaze of American slave-buyers. See this drove sold and separated forever; and never forget the deep, sad sobs that arose from that scattered multitude. Tell me citizens, WHERE, under the sun, you can witness a spectacle more fiendish and shocking. Yet this is but a glance at the American slave-trade, as it exists, at this moment, in the ruling part of the United States.

I was born amid such sights and scenes. To me the American slave-trade is a terrible reality. When a child, my soul was often pierced with a sense of its horrors. I lived on Philpot Street, Fell�s Point, Baltimore, and have watched from the wharves, the slave ships in the Basin, anchored from the shore, with their cargoes of human flesh, waiting for favorable winds to waft them down the Chesapeake. There was, at that time, a grand slave mart kept at the head of Pratt Street, by Austin Woldfolk. His agents were sent into every town and county in Maryland, announcing their arrival, through the papers, and on flaming �hand-bills,� headed CASH FOR NEGROES. These men were generally well dressed men, and very captivating in their manners. Ever ready to drink, to treat, and to gamble. The fate of many a slave has depended upon the turn of a single card; and many a child has been snatched from the arms of its mother by bargains arranged in a state of brutal drunkenness.

The flesh-mongers gather up their victims by dozens, and drive them, chained, to the general depot at Baltimore. When a sufficient number have been collected here, a ship is chartered, for the purpose of conveying the forlorn crew to Mobile, or to New Orleans. From the slave prison to the ship, they are usually driven in the darkness of night; for since the antislavery agitation, a certain caution is observed.

In the deep still darkness of midnight, I have been often aroused by the dead heavy footsteps, and the piteous cries of the chained gangs that passed our door. The anguish of my boyish heart was intense; and I was often consoled, when speaking to my mistress in the morning, to hear her say that the custom was very wicked; that she hated to hear the rattle of the chains, and the heart-rending cries. I was glad to find one who sympathized with me in my horror.

Fellow-citizens, this murderous traffic is, to-day, in active operation in this boasted republic. In the solitude of my spirit, I see clouds of dust raised on the highways of the South; I see the bleeding footsteps; I hear the doleful wail of fettered humanity, on the way to the slave-markets, where the victims are to be sold like horses, sheep, and swine, knocked off to the highest bidder. There I see the tenderest ties ruthlessly broken, to gratify the lust, caprice and rapacity of the buyers and sellers of men. My soul sickens at the sight.

Is this the land your Fathers loved,
The freedom which they toiled to win?
Is this the earth whereon they moved?
Are these the graves they slumber in?

But a still more inhuman, disgraceful, and scandalous state of things remains to be presented. By an act of the American Congress, not yet two years old, slavery has been nationalized in its most horrible and revolting form. By that act, Mason and Dixon�s line has been obliterated; New York has become as Virginia; and the power to hold, hunt, and sell men, women, and children as slaves remains no longer a mere state institution, but is now an institution of the whole United States. The power is co-extensive with the Star-Spangled Banner and American Christianity. Where these go, may also go the merciless slave-hunter. Where these are, man is not sacred. He is a bird for the sportsman�s gun. By that most foul and fiendish of all human decrees, the liberty and person of every man are put in peril. Your broad republican domain is hunting ground for men. Not for thieves and robbers, enemies of society, merely, but for men guilty of no crime. Your lawmakers have commanded all good citizens to engage in this hellish sport. Your President, your Secretary of State, our lords, nobles, and ecclesiastics, enforce, as a duty you owe to your free and glorious country, and to your God, that you do this accursed thing. Not fewer than forty Americans have, within the past two years, been hunted down and, without a moment�s warning, hurried away in chains, and consigned to slavery and excruciating torture. Some of these have had wives and children, dependent on them for bread; but of this, no account was made. The right of the hunter to his prey stands superior to the right of marriage, and to all rights in this republic, the rights of God included! For black men there are neither law, justice, humanity, not religion. The Fugitive Slave Law makes mercy to them a crime; and bribes the judge who tries them. An American judge gets ten dollars for every victim he consigns to slavery, and five, when he fails to do so. The oath of any two villains is sufficient, under this hell-black enactment, to send the most pious and exemplary black man into the remorseless jaws of slavery! His own testimony is nothing. He can bring no witnesses for himself. The minister of American justice is bound by the law to hear but one side; and that side, is the side of the oppressor. Let this damning fact be perpetually told. Let it be thundered around the world, that, in tyrant-killing, king-hating, people-loving, democratic, Christian America, the seats of justice are filled with judges, who hold their offices under an open and palpable bribe, and are bound, in deciding in the case of a man�s liberty, hear only his accusers!

In glaring violation of justice, in shameless disregard of the forms of administering law, in cunning arrangement to entrap the defenseless, and in diabolical intent, this Fugitive Slave Law stands alone in the annals of tyrannical legislation. I doubt if there be another nation on the globe, having the brass and the baseness to put such a law on the statute-book. If any man in this assembly thinks differently from me in this matter, and feels able to disprove my statements, I will gladly confront him at any suitable time and place he may select.

I take this law to be one of the grossest infringements of Christian Liberty, and, if the churches and ministers of our country were not stupidly blind, or most wickedly indifferent, they, too, would so regard it.

At the very moment that they are thanking God for the enjoyment of civil and religious liberty, and for the right to worship God according to the dictates of their own consciences, they are utterly silent in respect to a law which robs religion of its chief significance, and makes it utterly worthless to a world lying in wickedness. Did this law concern the �mint, anise, and cumin� � abridge the right to sing psalms, to partake of the sacrament, or to engage in any of the ceremonies of religion, it would be smitten by the thunder of a thousand pulpits. A general shout would go up from the church, demanding repeal, repeal, instant repeal! � And it would go hard with that politician who presumed to solicit the votes of the people without inscribing this motto on his banner. Further, if this demand were not complied with, another Scotland would be added to the history of religious liberty, and the stern old Covenanters would be thrown into the shade. A John Knox would be seen at every church door, and heard from every pulpit, and Fillmore would have no more quarter than was shown by Knox, to the beautiful, but treacherous queen Mary of Scotland. The fact that the church of our country, (with fractional exceptions), does not esteem �the Fugitive Slave Law� as a declaration of war against religious liberty, implies that that church regards religion simply as a form of worship, an empty ceremony, and not a vital principle, requiring active benevolence, justice, love and good will towards man. It esteems sacrifice above mercy; psalm-singing above right doing; solemn meetings above practical righteousness. A worship that can be conducted by persons who refuse to give shelter to the houseless, to give bread to the hungry, clothing to the naked, and who enjoin obedience to a law forbidding these acts of mercy, is a curse, not a blessing to mankind. The Bible addresses all such persons as �scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites, who pay tithe of mint, anise, and cumin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith.�

But the church of this country is not only indifferent to the wrongs of the slave, it actually takes sides with the oppressors. It has made itself the bulwark of American slavery, and the shield of American slave-hunters. Many of its most eloquent Divines. who stand as the very lights of the church, have shamelessly given the sanction of religion and the Bible to the whole slave system. They have taught that man may, properly, be a slave; that the relation of master and slave is ordained of God; that to send back an escaped bondman to his master is clearly the duty of all the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ; and this horrible blasphemy is palmed off upon the world for Christianity.

For my part, I would say, welcome infidelity! welcome atheism! welcome anything! in preference to the gospel, as preached by those Divines! They convert the very name of religion into an engine of tyranny, and barbarous cruelty, and serve to confirm more infidels, in this age, than all the infidel writings of Thomas Paine, Voltaire, and Bolingbroke, put together, have done! These ministers make religion a cold and flinty-hearted thing, having neither principles of right action, nor bowels of compassion. They strip the love of God of its beauty, and leave the throng of religion a huge, horrible, repulsive form. It is a religion for oppressors, tyrants, man-stealers, and thugs. It is not that �pure and undefiled religion� which is from above, and which is �first pure, then peaceable, easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.� But a religion which favors the rich against the poor; which exalts the proud above the humble; which divides mankind into two classes, tyrants and slaves; which says to the man in chains, stay there; and to the oppressor, oppress on; it is a religion which may be professed and enjoyed by all the robbers and enslavers of mankind; it makes God a respecter of persons, denies his fatherhood of the race, and tramples in the dust the great truth of the brotherhood of man. All this we affirm to be true of the popular church, and the popular worship of our land and nation � a religion, a church, and a worship which, on the authority of inspired wisdom, we pronounce to be an abomination in the sight of God. In the language of Isaiah, the American church might be well addressed, �Bring no more vain ablations; incense is an abomination unto me: the new moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth. They are a trouble to me; I am weary to bear them; and when ye spread forth your hands I will hide mine eyes from you. Yea! when ye make many prayers, I will not hear. YOUR HANDS ARE FULL OF BLOOD; cease to do evil, learn to do well; seek judgment; relieve the oppressed; judge for the fatherless; plead for the widow.�

The American church is guilty, when viewed in connection with what it is doing to uphold slavery; but it is superlatively guilty when viewed in connection with its ability to abolish slavery. The sin of which it is guilty is one of omission as well as of commission. Albert Barnes but uttered what the common sense of every man at all observant of the actual state of the case will receive as truth, when he declared that �There is no power out of the church that could sustain slavery an hour, if it were not sustained in it.�

Let the religious press, the pulpit, the Sunday school, the conference meeting, the great ecclesiastical, missionary, Bible and tract associations of the land array their immense powers against slavery and slave-holding; and the whole system of crime and blood would be scattered to the winds; and that they do not do this involves them in the most awful responsibility of which the mind can conceive.

In prosecuting the anti-slavery enterprise, we have been asked to spare the church, to spare the ministry; but how, we ask, could such a thing be done? We are met on the threshold of our efforts for the redemption of the slave, by the church and ministry of the country, in battle arrayed against us; and we are compelled to fight or flee. From what quarter, I beg to know, has proceeded a fire so deadly upon our ranks, during the last two years, as from the Northern pulpit? As the champions of oppressors, the chosen men of American theology have appeared � men, honored for their so-called piety, and their real learning. The Lords of Buffalo, the Springs of New York, the Lathrops of Auburn, the Coxes and Spencers of Brooklyn, the Gannets and Sharps of Boston, the Deweys of Washington, and other great religious lights of the land have, in utter denial of the authority of Him by whom they professed to be called to the ministry, deliberately taught us, against the example or the Hebrews and against the remonstrance of the Apostles, they teach that we ought to obey man�s law before the law of God.

My spirit wearies of such blasphemy; and how such men can be supported, as the �standing types and representatives of Jesus Christ,� is a mystery which I leave others to penetrate. In speaking of the American church, however, let it be distinctly understood that I mean the great mass of the religious organizations of our land. There are exceptions, and I thank God that there are. Noble men may be found, scattered all over these Northern States, of whom Henry Ward Beecher of Brooklyn, Samuel J. May of Syracuse, and my esteemed friend (Rev. R. R. Raymond) on the platform, are shining examples; and let me say further, that upon these men lies the duty to inspire our ranks with high religious faith and zeal, and to cheer us on in the great mission of the slave�s redemption from his chains.

One is struck with the difference between the attitude of the American church towards the anti-slavery movement, and that occupied by the churches in England towards a similar movement in that country. There, the church, true to its mission of ameliorating, elevating, and improving the condition of mankind, came forward promptly, bound up the wounds of the West Indian slave, and restored him to his liberty. There, the question of emancipation was a high religious question. It was demanded, in the name of humanity, and according to the law of the living God. The Sharps, the Clarksons, the Wilberforces, the Buxtons, and Burchells and the Knibbs, were alike famous for their piety, and for their philanthropy. The anti-slavery movement there was not an anti-church movement, for the reason that the church took its full share in prosecuting that movement: and the anti-slavery movement in this country will cease to be an anti-church movement, when the church of this country shall assume a favorable, instead of a hostile position towards that movement. Americans! your republican politics, not less than your republican religion, are flagrantly inconsistent. You boast of your love of liberty, your superior civilization, and your pure Christianity, while the whole political power of the nation (as embodied in the two great political parties), is solemnly pledged to support and perpetuate the enslavement of three millions of your countrymen. You hurl your anathemas at the crowned headed tyrants of Russia and Austria, and pride yourselves on your Democratic institutions, while you yourselves consent to be the mere tools and body-guards of the tyrants of Virginia and Carolina. You invite to your shores fugitives of oppression from abroad, honor them with banquets, greet them with ovations, cheer them, toast them, salute them, protect them, and pour out your money to them like water; but the fugitives from your own land you advertise, hunt, arrest, shoot and kill. You glory in your refinement and your universal education yet you maintain a system as barbarous and dreadful as ever stained the character of a nation � a system begun in avarice, supported in pride, and perpetuated in cruelty. You shed tears over fallen Hungary, and make the sad story of her wrongs the theme of your poets, statesmen and orators, till your gallant sons are ready to fly to arms to vindicate her cause against her oppressors; but, in regard to the ten thousand wrongs of the American slave, you would enforce the strictest silence, and would hail him as an enemy of the nation who dares to make those wrongs the subject of public discourse! You are all on fire at the mention of liberty for France or for Ireland; but are as cold as an iceberg at the thought of liberty for the enslaved of America. You discourse eloquently on the dignity of labor; yet, you sustain a system which, in its very essence, casts a stigma upon labor. You can bare your bosom to the storm of British artillery to throw off a threepenny tax on tea; and yet wring the last hard-earned farthing from the grasp of the black laborers of your country. You profess to believe �that, of one blood, God made all nations of men to dwell on the face of all the earth,� and hath commanded all men, everywhere to love one another; yet you notoriously hate, (and glory in your hatred), all men whose skins are not colored like your own. You declare, before the world, and are understood by the world to declare, that you �hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal; and are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; and that, among these are, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness;� and yet, you hold securely, in a bondage which, according to your own Thomas Jefferson, �is worse than ages of that which your fathers rose in rebellion to oppose,� a seventh part of the inhabitants of your country.

Fellow-citizens! I will not enlarge further on your national inconsistencies. The existence of slavery in this country brands your republicanism as a sham, your humanity as a base pretence, and your Christianity as a lie. It destroys your moral power abroad; it corrupts your politicians at home. It saps the foundation of religion; it makes your name a hissing, and a bye-word to a mocking earth. It is the antagonistic force in your government, the only thing that seriously disturbs and endangers your Union. It fetters your progress; it is the enemy of improvement, the deadly foe of education; it fosters pride; it breeds insolence; it promotes vice; it shelters crime; it is a curse to the earth that supports it; and yet, you cling to it, as if it were the sheet anchor of all your hopes. Oh! be warned! be warned! a horrible reptile is coiled up in your nation�s bosom; the venomous creature is nursing at the tender breast of your youthful republic; for the love of God, tear away, and fling from you the hideous monster, and let the weight of twenty millions crush and destroy it forever!

But it is answered in reply to all this, that precisely what I have now denounced is, in fact, guaranteed and sanctioned by the Constitution of the United States; that the right to hold and to hunt slaves is a part of that Constitution framed by the illustrious Fathers of this Republic.

Then, I dare to affirm, notwithstanding all I have said before, your fathers stooped, basely stooped

To palter with us in a double sense:
And keep the word of promise to the ear,
But break it to the heart.

And instead of being the honest men I have before declared them to be, they were the veriest imposters that ever practiced on mankind. This is the inevitable conclusion, and from it there is no escape. But I differ from those who charge this baseness on the framers of the Constitution of the United States. It is a slander upon their memory, at least, so I believe. There is not time now to argue the constitutional question at length � nor have I the ability to discuss it as it ought to be discussed. The subject has been handled with masterly power by Lysander Spooner, Esq., by William Goodell, by Samuel E. Sewall, Esq., and last, though not least, by Gerritt Smith, Esq. These gentlemen have, as I think, fully and clearly vindicated the Constitution from any design to support slavery for an hour.

Fellow-citizens! there is no matter in respect to which, the people of the North have allowed themselves to be so ruinously imposed upon, as that of the pro-slavery character of the Constitution. In that instrument I hold there is neither warrant, license, nor sanction of the hateful thing; but, interpreted as it ought to be interpreted, the Constitution is a GLORIOUS LIBERTY DOCUMENT. Read its preamble, consider its purposes. Is slavery among them? Is it at the gateway? or is it in the temple? It is neither. While I do not intend to argue this question on the present occasion, let me ask, if it be not somewhat singular that, if the Constitution were intended to be, by its framers and adopters, a slave-holding instrument, why neither slavery, slaveholding, nor slave can anywhere be found in it. What would be thought of an instrument, drawn up, legally drawn up, for the purpose of entitling the city of Rochester to a track of land, in which no mention of land was made? Now, there are certain rules of interpretation, for the proper understanding of all legal instruments. These rules are well established. They are plain, common-sense rules, such as you and I, and all of us, can understand and apply, without having passed years in the study of law. I scout the idea that the question of the constitutionality or unconstitutionality of slavery is not a question for the people. I hold that every American citizen has a right to form an opinion of the constitution, and to propagate that opinion, and to use all honorable means to make his opinion the prevailing one. Without this right, the liberty of an American citizen would be as insecure as that of a Frenchman. Ex-Vice-President Dallas tells us that the Constitution is an object to which no American mind can be too attentive, and no American heart too devoted. He further says, the Constitution, in its words, is plain and intelligible, and is meant for the home-bred, unsophisticated understandings of our fellow-citizens. Senator Berrien tell us that the Constitution is the fundamental law, that which controls all others. The charter of our liberties, which every citizen has a personal interest in understanding thoroughly. The testimony of Senator Breese, Lewis Cass, and many others that might be named, who are everywhere esteemed as sound lawyers, so regard the constitution. I take it, therefore, that it is not presumption in a private citizen to form an opinion of that instrument.

Now, take the Constitution according to its plain reading, and I defy the presentation of a single pro-slavery clause in it. On the other hand it will be found to contain principles and purposes, entirely hostile to the existence of slavery.

I have detained my audience entirely too long already. At some future period I will gladly avail myself of an opportunity to give this subject a full and fair discussion.

Allow me to say, in conclusion, notwithstanding the dark picture I have this day presented of the state of the nation, I do not despair of this country. There are forces in operation, which must inevitably work the downfall of slavery. �The arm of the Lord is not shortened,� and the doom of slavery is certain. I, therefore, leave off where I began, with hope. While drawing encouragement from the Declaration of Independence, the great principles it contains, and the genius of American Institutions, my spirit is also cheered by the obvious tendencies of the age. Nations do not now stand in the same relation to each other that they did ages ago. No nation can now shut itself up from the surrounding world, and trot round in the same old path of its fathers without interference. The time was when such could be done. Long established customs of hurtful character could formerly fence themselves in, and do their evil work with social impunity. Knowledge was then confined and enjoyed by the privileged few, and the multitude walked on in mental darkness. But a change has now come over the affairs of mankind. Walled cities and empires have become unfashionable. The arm of commerce has borne away the gates of the strong city. Intelligence is penetrating the darkest corners of the globe. It makes its pathway over and under the sea, as well as on the earth. Wind, steam, and lightning are its chartered agents. Oceans no longer divide, but link nations together. From Boston to London is now a holiday excursion. Space is comparatively annihilated. Thoughts expressed on one side of the Atlantic, are distinctly heard on the other. The far off and almost fabulous Pacific rolls in grandeur at our feet. The Celestial Empire, the mystery of ages, is being solved. The fiat of the Almighty, �Let there be Light,� has not yet spent its force. No abuse, no outrage whether in taste, sport or avarice, can now hide itself from the all-pervading light. The iron shoe, and crippled foot of China must be seen, in contrast with nature. Africa must rise and put on her yet unwoven garment. �Ethiopia shall stretch out her hand unto God.� In the fervent aspirations of William Lloyd Garrison, I say, and let every heart join in saying it:

God speed the year of jubilee
The wide world o�er
When from their galling chains set free,
Th� oppress�d shall vilely bend the knee,

And wear the yoke of tyranny
Like brutes no more.
That year will come, and freedom�s reign,
To man his plundered fights again
Restore.

God speed the day when human blood
Shall cease to flow!
In every clime be understood,
The claims of human brotherhood,
And each return for evil, good,
Not blow for blow;
That day will come all feuds to end.
And change into a faithful friend
Each foe.

God speed the hour, the glorious hour,
When none on earth
Shall exercise a lordly power,
Nor in a tyrant�s presence cower;
But all to manhood�s stature tower,
By equal birth!
That hour will come, to each, to all,
And from his prison-house, the thrall
Go forth.

Until that year, day, hour, arrive,
With head, and heart, and hand I�ll strive,
To break the rod, and rend the gyve,
The spoiler of his prey deprive �
So witness Heaven!
And never from my chosen post,
Whate�er the peril or the cost,
Be driven.



dave
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Robert_White
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Quote
The upshot of all this is simple, really. Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation.


I've got news for ya, God doesn't give a flip about your "temporal salvation". The Bible is full of blatant statements that the people who serve God will be mistreated, persecuted and often poor.

I've heard lots of talk about it being God's will that Christians would unite and overthrow the government, and that's a tragic misunderstanding of our role in this life.



I agree completely that the bible indicates suffering and death for the testimony of Christ, truth and righteousness and when I do wind my mind around political problems it seems like a futile exercise.

Nonetheless I think that a serious Christian should seek a just society because there is a burden on our conscience towards our fellow man; such as the work that you do directly to arrest lawbreakers and protect the innocent.

It would seem that there is a high concentration of people who still believe in "the laws of nature and of nature's God" who live in Dixie. Very few it seems who live up north.

Secession would be a great good thing.



"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.."

How does this trespass upon your "the laws of nature and nature's god" (and which god do you believe that is), to such an extend that you think you need to succeed again?

How did that work out for you last time?


Dis-establishment flows logically from "the laws of nature and of nature's God". The two are in harmony, not disagreement. But dis-establishment, properly understood, does not mean nihilism; it does not mean atheism or moral relativism, nor does it mean hostility or indifference to God. The Founders believed in an a priori, non-sectarian regime of objective moral truths grounded in nature. In the Declaration of Independence we are taught that "the just powers of government are derived from the consent of the governed". Not any powers mind you, but just powers only. In the moral understanding of the Founders, consent, as such, cannot authorize anything instrinsically immoral or wrong.

The "laws of nature" (unassisted human reason) and of "nature's God" (revealed religion) are in substantial agreement as to what constitutes moral behavior. Indeed, there is such consonance between the two that the Founders, in the Preamble (which contains a succinct statement of the Constitution's purposes) crowned the enumeration of the Constitution's ends as to "secure the blessings of liberty". Alone among the ends sought to be acheived by the Constitution, the securing of "liberty" is called the securing of a "blessing". By the common understanding of mankind (certainly of the people that Constituted this Republic in 1787) a "blessing" is something that God would want you to have; something that God thinks is good for you. In short, the Founders did not concieve of liberty in non-moral, or morally relativistic terms and their understanding of that liberty which is a "blessing"---that liberty which the Constitution sought to secure---is consistent with if not actually defined by Judeo-Christian mono-theism.


Jordan
Originally Posted by Robert_White
Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
Originally Posted by eyeball
Nah. Derby is right. Since no nation lasts forever and no candidate is perfect, it doesn't matter who is elected. cool
Just the other day there was a callout thread about how Massachusetts is just as good as Tennessee...or Kansas or Texas. Up there you can actually carry a gun, as long as it's unloaded...and locked up in the trunk...and the popo don't catch you with it.


That is the thing I just don't get. People will get on here and rail against Massachusetts, California, or some other communist state and tell us how they are dragging the country down. Yet, they will never ask the simple question, "Why do I even want to be in the same country as people who think like that?" And of course, if you even suggest the idea, they get all huffy about it.

I've come to the conclusion, that in this country at least, most people are so hopelessly indoctrinated on all that "Truth, justice, and the American way..." mess that they just turn off of their brains and don't even consider what is actually going on what the costs are. In short, they would rather be like people in the old Soviet Union and be able to brag about "kicking ass" around the world, than to be the freest people in the history of the world and be like Switzerland.


Why do I even want to be in the same country as people who think like that...

This is very profound. I am sorry I missed it and did not comment at the time.




But one must distinguish between "rebellion" and "revolution". The former is always wrong; the latter could be right, depending. The attempted succession by the South was a rebellion against the principles of the Declaration of Independence and a resort to bullets simply because the South did not like the result of ballots cast in a free election.
You can only rebel against something that has binding legal authority over you. When the federal government usurped powers not granted to it by its sovereigns, the states, then it forfeited its legal authority. The states could no more rebel against the federal government than a father could rebel against a child.
Originally Posted by JoeBob
You can only rebel against something that has binding legal authority over you. When the federal government usurped powers not granted to it by its sovereigns, the states, then it forfeited its legal authority. The states could no more rebel against the federal government than a father could rebel against a child.


Its not the states that is sovereign. Its the People and more precisely, the moral people who, individually, comprise the good People who formed this government. This is where the South made a radical break with the thought of the Founders. The Founders sought to ground government in individual liberty grounded in the free and equal status of all human beings relative to one another. The purpose of government was to protect and enhance that liberty---especially the liberty to acquire property. But the South tried to transmute the emphasis of liberty on the individual to the State---as in "state's rights". The particular "right" which of the "state" which the South sought to make preeminent was the right of one man to own another human being, as if that other human being were an animal of another species. This was the very negation of everything the Founders, the Declaration and the Constitution, properly understood, stood for. In truth, the argument for Southern succession was nothing short of an argument for tyranny and despotism of the worst kind---the argument for the enslavement of human beings as if they were cattle as a "positive moral good". In its denial of any moral authority to the distinctions of nature in the order of nature (the distinction between man and beasts for example) the "positive good" school of pro-slavery thought in ante-bellum America was actually the forerunner of the Nazism and Stalinism in their self-same denial of "the laws of nature and of nature's God".

Jordan
Originally Posted by RobJordan
Originally Posted by JoeBob
You can only rebel against something that has binding legal authority over you. When the federal government usurped powers not granted to it by its sovereigns, the states, then it forfeited its legal authority. The states could no more rebel against the federal government than a father could rebel against a child.


Its not the states that is sovereign. Its the People and more precisely, the moral people who, individually, comprise the good People who formed this government. This is where the South made a radical break with the thought of the Founders. The Founders sought to ground government in individual liberty grounded in the free and equal status of all human beings relative to one another. The purpose of government was to protect and enhance that liberty---especially the liberty to acquire property. But the South tried to transmute the emphasis of liberty on the individual to the State---as in "state's rights". The particular "right" which of the "state" which the South sought to make preeminent was the right of one man to own another human being, as if that other human being were an animal of another species. This was the very negation of everything the Founders, the Declaration and the Constitution, properly understood, stood for. In truth, the argument for Southern succession was nothing short of an argument for tyranny and despotism of the worst kind---the argument for the enslavement of human beings as if they were cattle as a "positive moral good". In its denial of any moral authority to the distinctions of nature in the order of nature (the distinction between man and beasts for example) the "positive good" school of pro-slavery thought in ante-bellum America was actually the forerunner of the Nazism and Stalinism in their self-same denial of "the laws of nature and of nature's God".

Jordan


The States created the government and the constitution. And in any case, the People of those states voted overwhelmingly for secession. The cause matters not.

AS for Nazism, Hitler was a big fan of Lincoln. Look it up.
Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by RobJordan
Originally Posted by JoeBob
You can only rebel against something that has binding legal authority over you. When the federal government usurped powers not granted to it by its sovereigns, the states, then it forfeited its legal authority. The states could no more rebel against the federal government than a father could rebel against a child.


Its not the states that is sovereign. Its the People and more precisely, the moral people who, individually, comprise the good People who formed this government. This is where the South made a radical break with the thought of the Founders. The Founders sought to ground government in individual liberty grounded in the free and equal status of all human beings relative to one another. The purpose of government was to protect and enhance that liberty---especially the liberty to acquire property. But the South tried to transmute the emphasis of liberty on the individual to the State---as in "state's rights". The particular "right" which of the "state" which the South sought to make preeminent was the right of one man to own another human being, as if that other human being were an animal of another species. This was the very negation of everything the Founders, the Declaration and the Constitution, properly understood, stood for. In truth, the argument for Southern succession was nothing short of an argument for tyranny and despotism of the worst kind---the argument for the enslavement of human beings as if they were cattle as a "positive moral good". In its denial of any moral authority to the distinctions of nature in the order of nature (the distinction between man and beasts for example) the "positive good" school of pro-slavery thought in ante-bellum America was actually the forerunner of the Nazism and Stalinism in their self-same denial of "the laws of nature and of nature's God".

Jordan


The States created the government and the constitution. And in any case, the People of those states voted overwhelmingly for secession. The cause matters not.

AS for Nazism, Hitler was a big fan of Lincoln. Look it up.


I'll respond later in detail. Got to break for Sunday dinner.
Originally Posted by RobJordan
Originally Posted by JoeBob
Originally Posted by RobJordan
Originally Posted by JoeBob
You can only rebel against something that has binding legal authority over you. When the federal government usurped powers not granted to it by its sovereigns, the states, then it forfeited its legal authority. The states could no more rebel against the federal government than a father could rebel against a child.


Its not the states that is sovereign. Its the People and more precisely, the moral people who, individually, comprise the good People who formed this government. This is where the South made a radical break with the thought of the Founders. The Founders sought to ground government in individual liberty grounded in the free and equal status of all human beings relative to one another. The purpose of government was to protect and enhance that liberty---especially the liberty to acquire property. But the South tried to transmute the emphasis of liberty on the individual to the State---as in "state's rights". The particular "right" which of the "state" which the South sought to make preeminent was the right of one man to own another human being, as if that other human being were an animal of another species. This was the very negation of everything the Founders, the Declaration and the Constitution, properly understood, stood for. In truth, the argument for Southern succession was nothing short of an argument for tyranny and despotism of the worst kind---the argument for the enslavement of human beings as if they were cattle as a "positive moral good". In its denial of any moral authority to the distinctions of nature in the order of nature (the distinction between man and beasts for example) the "positive good" school of pro-slavery thought in ante-bellum America was actually the forerunner of the Nazism and Stalinism in their self-same denial of "the laws of nature and of nature's God".

Jordan


The States created the government and the constitution. And in any case, the People of those states voted overwhelmingly for secession. The cause matters not.

AS for Nazism, Hitler was a big fan of Lincoln. Look it up.


I'll respond later in detail. Got to break for Sunday dinner.


Don't bother. I'm not interested. I'm right, you're wrong. It is that simple.
Lincoln's blindness to the issue is repeated over and over by himself. He refereed to the "rebellion" as the work of some fanatical hotheads etc.

But he never, and the Yankees never recognized the lawful legal assembled legislatures of the South that met and debated and voted to leave the northern union.

The parents fathered the child. The parents, ie., the states, created the servant-butler-child of the defined-limited-federal government. How does a parent rebel against its child? The best analogy is Dr. Frankenstein being terrorized and killed by his unhholy creation.

Marx adored Lincoln, Wrote many letters praising him in the New York press/propaganda rags.
Utterly false in every respect. Confederate progpaganda, pure and simple. I'll respond in detail later today. Wait for it... wink

Jordan
Originally Posted by RobJordan
Utterly false in every respect. Confederate progpaganda, pure and simple. I'll respond in detail later today. Wait for it... wink

Jordan


That'll just get added to the long list of "I'll respond later today" posts you've made and then never followed up on because you can't change fact, history, or (especially) law to suit your fantasies now matter how hard you try.
Originally Posted by Robert_White
I want no part of your Marxist atheistic tyranny...

I want EXACTLY what Virginia fought for in the first and second revolutions...

What you guys are doing is called reverse-engineered-anachronistic-hermenuetics.

You are superimposing your modern-education-coolaid onto the founders. You are not being honest with the founders, not at all.

You both belong in France fighing the French Revolution.


You truly are a myopic individual.

At no time have I ever supported any version of Marxism, nor tyranny. I have stated, time and again, and been supported by your own posts, that you want a hardline Baptist theocracy and that such a thing is an anathema to freedom. I stand by that, as it is fact.

Take, for example, Jefferson's "Virginia Statute on Religious Freedoms". In his preamble paragraphs, the part that are not active and do nothing but set the stage, Jefferson references "Almighty God" and "Nature's God", a foundational deist principle that supports the latter part; the operative paragraphs.

Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
An Act for establishing religious Freedom.

Whereas, Almighty God hath created the mind free;

That all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and therefore are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being Lord, both of body and mind yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do,

That the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time;

That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions, which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical;

That even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor, whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness, and is withdrawing from the Ministry those temporary rewards, which, proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind;

That our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry,

That therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence, by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages, to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right,

That it tends only to corrupt the principles of that very Religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments those who will externally profess and conform to it;

That though indeed, these are criminal who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way;

That to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own;

That it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order;

And finally, that Truth is great, and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them:

Be it enacted by General Assembly that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities. And though we well know that this Assembly elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of Legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding Assemblies constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare that the rights hereby asserted, are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right.


You and those like you impiously presume that you, as ecclesiastical and civic leaders can assume dominion over the faiths of others, setting up your own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible and endeavor to impose them upon others.

I reject that, as did Jefferson, as a form of religious tyranny that is wholly unsuited to the concepts of freedom and liberty. To quote Jefferson again, "[O]ur civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry.

Originally Posted by Jefferson
Truth is great, and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them.


Therefore, I stand as did our Founders and certainly Jefferson,
Originally Posted by Jefferson
"that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion."


Thus, you are left to practice and and follow your faith, me to mine, and others to their own, with NONE having the right to force their beliefs on any other and especially not on society as a whole through influence of religion on civic government. Marxism replaces all religion with the "church of the state", and that fails under Jefferson's ideals of freedom and liberty just so much as as did the Church of England, Islamofascism, or the concept of a hardlined Baptist theocracy. Those are not the existence of freedom and liberty as understood by the Founders, fought for by millions of Americans for over two centuries, and not what Truths we hold self-evident.

You, nor I, nor any other, can be compelled to support, follow, practice, or believe in any faith not of our choosing, nor can we be forced to live under the yoke of a religious doctrine enforced through civic government at any level. We are free to follow any faith or belief of our choosing, or none at all. Any deviance from this is an infringement upon a natural right.




Leave the Baptists out of this. It was because of their treatment in his native Virginia that Jefferson came to have his beliefs on religious freedom and it was in a letter to the Danbury Baptists that he first wrote the famous phrase.

Oh, and Jefferson did not consider himself a deist as that he believed that God took an active part in the affairs of men, intervening and guiding where He will. Jefferson just didn't necessarily believe in any doctrine followed by conventional Christians of the time although he referred to himself as a true Christian.
The Baptists then are not the Baptists of today. The hardline Baptists of today make Puritans look soft and given the opportunity, they'd be a kissing cousin to Iranian mullahs and the Taliban (Westboro Baptist, anyone?).

What Jefferson believed he believed was his right and his freedom. He also believed that none had the right to force any other to believe as they did, or at all, and that religious beliefs had no place in civic governance (see the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedoms above; it was put there for a reason).
There's no such thing as a "Baptist Taliban". Give it a rest. It wasn't a Baptist that shot those cops in NYC.
Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
There's no such thing as a "Baptist Taliban". Give it a rest. It wasn't a Baptist that shot those cops in NYC.


Did I say they were shooting cops? No. Was the jackleg in NYC a "taliban"? No, he was a Nation of Islam African-American.

It seems I've hit a nerve, and instead of taking a consideration of Jefferson's words and how they relate to actual freedom, you'd rather get all sore about my maligning hardline Baptists.

That, is telling.
Just admit that you are assuming too much as concerns my position; and that you are using hyperbole, straw man exagerations and ad hominem concerning me.... as Baptist Taliban...

And I will withdraw my assertion that you are a God-hating marxist.

Seriously; I do not know where you get such extreme opinions of me. I assert "the laws of nature and nature's God" as the foundation stone of all of our laws leaning upon Blackstone, (as did Jefferson) In that context I see no God-given inalienable constitional right to public deviancy or child-murder in the womb. I do not and never have asserted coercion with regards to religion.

I have never attended Westoboro Baptist and never would; I am a veteran and find his actions (former, he is dead) at veterans funerals reprehensible, unthinkable, worse than abominable.

If the Declaration of Independence puts our nation on the footing of a theocracy then so be it; but that is your extreme position and description. I am for the Declaration you seem to be against it; that sure seems marxist to me. Even John F Kennedy in his day invoked God-given inalienable rights as our foundation stone of freedom. That is our fall back postion when everything else fails.

At the heart of it all our American heritage is rooted in this Lockean tradtion and articulated precisely in the Declaration. It is the antithesis of the atheist Marxist ideology that makes man the sum of all things and the arbiter of all things.

The Boston rebels had a flag; it said, "An Appeal to Heaven" That comes right straight out of John Locke; word for word. He asserted that when all appeals to earthly authority have been exhausted, in the face of tyranny, then the only last recourse was, "An appeal to heaven and the contest of arms" since God's justice was the last court of appeal. This is still true today. It is foundational to the better aspects of American political science. One of the Confederate flags had an emblem of Washington on a horse and in latin the motto, "God Vindicates" So it is that both the north and the South leaned upon the Declaration.
Great Seal of the Confederacy. "Deo Vindice"

"The bottom margin contains the national motto, Deo Vindice (variously translated as "Under God, [Our] Vindicator", "With God as [Our] Champion", "With God as [Our] Judge", and "Under the Guidance and Protection of God"). The Confederate Senator Thomas Semmes, in proposing this motto, took pains to stress that the CSA had "deviated in the most emphatic manner from the spirit that presided over the construction of the Constitution of the United States, which is silent on the subject of the Deity"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deo_vindice
Originally Posted by Robert_White
http://leagueofthesouth.com/independence-the-souths-only-option/#comment-2237


Long ago, Rev. Robert Lewis Dabney, a Presbyterian divine and Confederate officer on Stonewall Jackson�s staff, wrote this of American (i.e. yankee) Conservatism:

�[American Conservativism] is a party which never conserves anything. Its history has been that it demurs to each aggression of the progressive party, and aims to save its credit by a respectable amount of growling, but always acquiesces at last in the innovation. What was the resisted novelty of yesterday is today one of the accepted principles of conservatism � American conservatism is merely the shadow that follows Radicalism as it moves forward towards perdition � Its impotency is not hard, indeed, to explain. It is worthless because it is the conservatism of expediency only, and not of sturdy principle. It intends to risk nothing serious for the sake of the truth, and has no idea of being guilty of the folly of martyrdom � The only practical purpose which it now subserves in American politics is to give enough exercise to Radicalism to keep it �in wind,� and to prevent its becoming pursy and lazy from having nothing to whip.�

The upshot of all this is simple, really. Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation. It is broken and beyond reform. Neither place trust in the GOP or Democrat establishments. Both are corrupt and self serving.
__________________________________________

Mike Hill in his insistence that DC is corrupt beyond reform and hopeless is near about the only sensible thing I have heard espoused politically in the last seven years when I first stumbled upon the LOS


Preaching sedition?
Originally Posted by Robert_White
Just admit that you are assuming too much as concerns my position; and that you are using hyperbole, straw man exagerations and ad hominem concerning me.... as Baptist Taliban...

And I will withdraw my assertion that you are a God-hating marxist.

Seriously; I do not know where you get such extreme opinions of me. I assert "the laws of nature and nature's God" as the foundation stone of all of our laws leaning upon Blackstone, (as did Jefferson) In that context I see no God-given inalienable constitional right to public deviancy or child-murder in the womb. I do not and never have asserted coercion with regards to religion.

I have never attended Westoboro Baptist and never would; I am a veteran and find his actions (former, he is dead) at veterans funerals reprehensible, unthinkable, worse than abominable.

If the Declaration of Independence puts our nation on the footing of a theocracy then so be it; but that is your extreme position and description. I am for the Declaration you seem to be against it; that sure seems marxist to me. Even John F Kennedy in his day invoked God-given inalienable rights as our foundation stone of freedom. That is our fall back postion when everything else fails.

At the heart of it all our American heritage is rooted in this Lockean tradtion and articulated precisely in the Declaration. It is the antithesis of the atheist Marxist ideology that makes man the sum of all things and the arbiter of all things.

The Boston rebels had a flag; it said, "An Appeal to Heaven" That comes right straight out of John Locke; word for word. He asserted that when all appeals to earthly authority have been exhausted, in the face of tyranny, then the only last recourse was, "An appeal to heaven and the contest of arms" since God's justice was the last court of appeal. This is still true today. It is foundational to the better aspects of American political science. One of the Confederate flags had an emblem of Washington on a horse and in latin the motto, "God Vindicates" So it is that both the north and the South leaned upon the Declaration.


I stated exactly my position on you and your beliefs, and on mine.

If Jefferson was a Marxist, then so am I. I stand on his premise that you are free to practice your religion as you see fit, and me mine, but that no one should ever be forced to live under the yoke of a dictated religion.

The Declaration of Independence (for the umpteenth time) is NOT BINDING LAW in the US. Never has been; never will be. Nor is Blackstone. Binding law is the U.S. Constitution, the various state constitutions, and case law under those and those alone. I realize you don't want this to be the case, but it is, has always been, and will always be. There is no theocracy there, and in fact, they stand in direct opposition to your fantasies of a theocracy. Such a theocracy would be an anathema to freedom and to liberty.

I see you, like EE and others, refuse to read Jefferson's words tending instead to find ways to justify a state religion in direct opposition to the ideals of freedom and liberty.

For that, I will never stand. I will fight to the death for you to practice your religion as you see fit, but I will fit to the death against you or any other that tries to force a religion on me or anyone else in this land of freedom.

I swore that oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic years ago, and I stand by it today.
Will religion ever disappear?

Probably not. wink

Originally Posted by Robert_White
http://leagueofthesouth.com/independence-the-souths-only-option/#comment-2237


Long ago, Rev. Robert Lewis Dabney, a Presbyterian divine and Confederate officer on Stonewall Jackson�s staff, wrote this of American (i.e. yankee) Conservatism:

�[American Conservativism] is a party which never conserves anything. Its history has been that it demurs to each aggression of the progressive party, and aims to save its credit by a respectable amount of growling, but always acquiesces at last in the innovation. What was the resisted novelty of yesterday is today one of the accepted principles of conservatism � American conservatism is merely the shadow that follows Radicalism as it moves forward towards perdition � Its impotency is not hard, indeed, to explain. It is worthless because it is the conservatism of expediency only, and not of sturdy principle. It intends to risk nothing serious for the sake of the truth, and has no idea of being guilty of the folly of martyrdom � The only practical purpose which it now subserves in American politics is to give enough exercise to Radicalism to keep it �in wind,� and to prevent its becoming pursy and lazy from having nothing to whip.�

The upshot of all this is simple, really. Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation. It is broken and beyond reform. Neither place trust in the GOP or Democrat establishments. Both are corrupt and self serving.
__________________________________________

Mike Hill in his insistence that DC is corrupt beyond reform and hopeless is near about the only sensible thing I have heard espoused politically in the last seven years when I first stumbled upon the LOS


Originally Posted by ltppowell
Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation. It is broken and beyond reform. Neither place trust in the GOP or Democrat establishments. Both are corrupt and self-serving.

No truer words have been spoken on this board than those.
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by ltppowell
Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation. It is broken and beyond reform. Neither place trust in the GOP or Democrat establishments. Both are corrupt and self-serving.

No truer words have been spoken on this board than those.


On that there is no disagreement.

Originally Posted by 4ager
Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
There's no such thing as a "Baptist Taliban". Give it a rest. It wasn't a Baptist that shot those cops in NYC.


Did I say they were shooting cops? No. Was the jackleg in NYC a "taliban"? No, he was a Nation of Islam African-American.

It seems I've hit a nerve, and instead of taking a consideration of Jefferson's words and how they relate to actual freedom, you'd rather get all sore about my maligning hardline Baptists.

That, is telling.
One post of mine compared to multiple posts of yours across multiple threads? Yes, it's telling.
Originally Posted by djs
Originally Posted by Robert_White
http://leagueofthesouth.com/independence-the-souths-only-option/#comment-2237


Long ago, Rev. Robert Lewis Dabney, a Presbyterian divine and Confederate officer on Stonewall Jackson�s staff, wrote this of American (i.e. yankee) Conservatism:

�[American Conservativism] is a party which never conserves anything. Its history has been that it demurs to each aggression of the progressive party, and aims to save its credit by a respectable amount of growling, but always acquiesces at last in the innovation. What was the resisted novelty of yesterday is today one of the accepted principles of conservatism � American conservatism is merely the shadow that follows Radicalism as it moves forward towards perdition � Its impotency is not hard, indeed, to explain. It is worthless because it is the conservatism of expediency only, and not of sturdy principle. It intends to risk nothing serious for the sake of the truth, and has no idea of being guilty of the folly of martyrdom � The only practical purpose which it now subserves in American politics is to give enough exercise to Radicalism to keep it �in wind,� and to prevent its becoming pursy and lazy from having nothing to whip.�

The upshot of all this is simple, really. Place no trust in Washington for your temporal salvation. It is broken and beyond reform. Neither place trust in the GOP or Democrat establishments. Both are corrupt and self serving.
__________________________________________

Mike Hill in his insistence that DC is corrupt beyond reform and hopeless is near about the only sensible thing I have heard espoused politically in the last seven years when I first stumbled upon the LOS


Preaching sedition?
The Yankees were/are the traitors...and those who side with them.
"....refuse to read Jefferson's words tending instead to find ways to justify a state religion in direct opposition to the ideals of freedom and liberty."


Graciously...

I have asserted no such thing. Neither has EE. If so; which denomination did I assert as the state religion of VA or the entire nation? When did I post this? What were my words?

Notwithstanding I would point out that you make a technical error; because the founders did in fact have state religion even after ratification of the federal compact in some states. And Jefferson himself considered it an exclusive State's Rights issue. That Jefferson argued for disestablishing state religion in Va and won the debate, in context, was only binding in Va. And... as Madison pointed out, it improved the purity of the Church which he considered a good thing; and I do too.
Mr. DJS... "preaching sedition?"

I would describe myself as preaching Jefferson or preaching a renaissance of our founding principles:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.-


That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,


But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government
If it started today there would be over 100 million dead.
Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
The Yankees were/are the traitors...and those who side with them.

laffin'

Blacks are still whining about slavery, American Indians are still whining about Manifest Destiny, and your booger's still sore from the Civil War.

Run some Vagisil on it Ethan.
Democracy is the gift that keeps on giving !

and the notion that all men were created equal ? really, thats PC bullcrap !

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