Just read this, and it surely doesn't jibe with the public perception of our founding fathers. It most definitely was a different world back then.

Founding Fathers

Not really news for anyone that has delved into the founding fathers much.

Too bad making good whiskey has turned into such a revenue generating and regulated paycheck for the government.

I doubt the founding fathers had that in mind, since they stood for less taxation, and more freedom.

No just the people that wanted to give back the land,an money an what ever else back .These were called Democrats .

I've heard about a lot of it before, especially George Washington, who was the largest whiskey producer in the US.

The name of Samuel Adams is well known too.

He would roll over in his grave to see what the company has become with their liberal rainbow BS.

I've been there and seen Washington's operation. Also, bought some of his rock gut from the distillery shop. It's horrible.

They were hammered!!

I'm wondering what is your perception of them. The notion that virtuous men have to be teetotalers is a modern idea based around the brainwashing of groups like the WCTU and various puritanical churches from the early 20th century. Until that time drinking wasn't considered to be a bad thing and a gentleman would be expected to imbibe pretty liberally.

These were men that went to war against the greatest military of the time and won. I would expect them to be hard drinking, hard living men. If they were otherwise we'd still be subjects of the Queen.

I'll bet some of them even said a cuss word every now and then, perish the thought!

I wanna be like ol' Ben Franklin!

The Temperance movement and lots of modern religious ideas about drink were fueled in large part by a reaction against chronic drunkenness rampant in America at the time.

To the extent that the times were exceptionally violent and rowdy, it was in large part, due to the fact that everyone went around stewed to the gills ALL THE TIME. Every adult walked around literally more than half drunk all day.

Most of the killings, feuds, violent crimes and the like were almost always between people who were drunker than skunks.

Didn't mean to imply that it was MY perception of them, as I know better. I meant all the goody two shoes that uphold them as virtuous men. Moral men, yes. Virtuous? Not so much.

Yeah, all that government regulation really solved that problem didn't it?

I somehow don't buy the mass drunken brawl story... However, that is what the temperance movement ladies shouted.

Can't say. I'm old, but not old enough to have hung with those boys. One might ask McCain though.

this pretty much....and in alreality for their day the founding fathers didnt stand out from the crowd....everyone drank though part of that came from the notion that water would make you sick, which in those days often would though the water in the US was ALOT better than in Europe where the whole idea got stuck in peoples heads....so everyone, including kids drank alcohol, though the youngins mainly drank "small beer" and ciders that had lower alcohol levels because it is what was considered safe to drink....

now with that in mind imagine what you would have to drink to be labeled the town drunkard

If they were drunks and managed to pull off a successful revolution, come up with the Constitution, and start our nation, then I'd really HATE to see what our leaders today are taking...

Well actually regs. started with G. Washington and the whiskey rebellion. George didn't like his competition(moonshiners out in the hinterlands) stealing business and not paying the tax put on the sale of liquor so he conscripted a bunch a guys to go kick some hillbilly aZZ.

http://www.mountvernon.org/research-collections/digital-encyclopedia/article/whiskey-rebellion/

AS far as alcohol goes it's been down hill from there.

Imagine yourself with a slight buzz, maybe not so much that someone who doesn't know you would notice, but enough to remove some of the inhibitions you might otherwise have. Now, imagine everyone around you being the same way. Imagine everyone carrying guns. And imagine a much more highly defined sense of honor in which the barest slight was not to be tolerated but answered immediately.

Honestly, it is amazing that things weren't more violent.

Are you referring to Sam Adams beer? If so, I don't think the historical Sam Adams ever had anything to do with that company. As I recall, it was just a name they used for the brew....

and, Mt. Vernon still operates a distillery - interesting part of visit.

see: http://www.mountvernon.org/the-estate-gardens/distillery/

A bit off subject, but my most long-lasting memory of visiting Mount Vernon was a recipe for roast pig that appeared in George's cook's hand-written recipe book - the measure of when the pig was done was when its eyeballs fell out.

The Founding Fathers, in spite of the drinking situation and their inebriated condition such as it was, did some amazing things, way ahead of their times. I'm still in awe of them.
Maybe even more so...

That why I said "name"...

Sam Adams Brewing (officially Boston Beer Company) was founded in 1984 by Jim Koch. One of their beers Utopius (25% alcohol and does not require refrigeration due to the alcohol level) is limited-released once every 2-3 years and costs $200/bottle; very few beer shops even got it and generally only 1 bottle is sold per customer. Following its release, internet prices soar to up to $1000 per bottle.

My son-in-law always manages to get a bottle and it is GOOD!

see: http://gizmodo.com/i-drank-a-200-bottle-of-sam-adams-for-science-1469881907

rockinbar;
Good morning to you sir, I hope the weekend has been treating you well thus far.

So putting on my best sarcasm voice - I'd say I'm shocked - yes shocked I tell you - to learn that your great nation was started by any other than teatotalers.

While it may or may not be of more than passing interest to you or any of my 'Fire friends south of the medicine line to learn, our own "Father's of Confederation" were in the main a bunch of semi-sober Scotsmen and Englishmen.

Here's a quick quote from a National Post story about the initial meeting in Prince Edward Island.

"Confederation itself had floated through on waves of free booze. Christopher Moore, in his book 1867: How the Fathers Made a Deal, describes how Ontario and Quebec delegates to the Charlottetown Conference of 1864 showed up with a boatload of hooch and went from one party to another. Small wonder so many of the Fathers of Confederation in Robert Harris�s famous painting are sitting down or appear to be leaning on something."

Our first Prime Minister from what I read could have held his own with your Founding Fathers when it came to imbibing as well.

"It�s also no secret that our first prime minister, Sir John A. Macdonald, was cursed with the unquenchable thirst. But most people don�t realize that many of his opponents were, too."

Anyway sir, please note that I'm not comparing anything more or less here than the alcohol consumption habits of the founders of our respective nations.

It's ironic/funny/strange to read where some of the notions we were otherwise stemmed from and how many folks to this day choose to believe that.

All the best to you in the upcoming week rockinbar.

Dwayne

The drinking of distilled spirits in the founding father's time was due to three reasons. The first was the sanitary condition of water. Since water could not be trusted not to make you sick, people drank alcohol beverages or mixed them with water. The second is the need to preserve foodstuffs. It was a way to preserve grains and turn calories into something that could be stored long term.
The third is why we drink it today, for the entertainment value.

Drinking and being a drunk were two different things back then, but the larger amounts of alcohol consumed is due to the first two reasons, reinforced by the third.

As methods to preserve food and clean water have improved, the need for alcohol consumption drops and heavier consumption is typically an abuse problem with all its attendant problems.

People always try to measure actions and intents of the past with current perceptions, doesn't always apply.

I'm so glad that wonderful man BC30 isn't a moderator.

Huh?

It was Washington that levied the tax and sent soldiers against American civilians. Many of which were revolutionary war veterans.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion

George Washington ran the largest distillery in the colonies. History has sanitized the founders to the point that we think they were saints. They weren't. They had the same flaws we have today and to hold them to any other standard is a disservice to them and to history.

If so perhaps this country now needs more drunks.

Winston Churchill liked to drink. When he was a young cavalry officer, and went to war in northern Africa, he and his pal had a separate wagon just to transport their booze. Wine, liquor, champagne etc.
Of course the regular field troop could not engage in such luxury, but Churchill was an aristocrat.
During WW2, Churchill would have a big glass of sherry for breakfast, and continue to drink throughout the day. He was more or less drunk every day of the war.

Also, Churchill never exercised, and smoked cigars throughout his life, lived to be about 88 years old.

How many of the folks of that time were heroin/opium addicts?

In know in the UK, in the 1800's and early 1900's before heroin was made illegal, it was actually quite a problem, especially in the upper classes..

Chemists sold "heroin tonics", and in the WW1, it wasn't uncommon for family's to send small amounts of heroin to sons/husbands serving in the trenches..

NSFW:

Bob;


Thanks for the good chuckle this afternoon sir - hopefully this finds you and yours well.

I'm pretty secure in saying you're very likely in a majority position with your sentiments that I'm not a moderator.

While I do appreciate the adjective and kind thoughts attached - please be sure I make heavy use of the backspace bar and the "Preview Post" icon when posting.

As I've often said, it's in real life that I could really, really use something similar before I speak.

All the best to you folks this week and thanks again for the laugh.

Dwayne

idon't know, but I'll paraphase Abraham Lincoln's replay when one of his aides told him that the general he appointed to run the whole Union Army, Ulysses S. Grant had a dirnking problem: If the Founding Fathers were drunks, find out what they were drinking and send a case of it to Obama and every member of Congress!

idon't know, but I'll paraphase Abraham Lincoln's replay when one of his aides told him that the general he appointed to run the whole Union Army, Ulysses S. Grant had a dirnking problem: If the Founding Fathers were drunks, find out what they were drinking and send a case of it to Obama and every member of Congress!

So then goverments took on a problem, made it illegal in an attempt to regulate human behaivier, and created a monster.

actually Grant didnt have a drinking problem....thats mostly bullchit....he drank some in his younger days but by the time he was a General he hardly drank...whole lot of people were below him didnt like him so whenever Grant did something questionable they would start spreading chit that he was a drunk based on what he had done years before, not what he was at that time....

Exactly.

I don't think many of them actually fought in the war. It is likely many of those who were on the losing side of the whiskey rebellion did though.

One quick witted quote, paraphrased here, I always remember as being attributed to WC took place at some formal occasion where the prime minister was rather deep into the cup when he happened upon a very proper, English lady, or she happened upon him:

Lady to WC in proper, English disdain: "why,..mister Churchill, you are drunk!

WC: Yes madam, I am. But in the morning I will be sober. You, however, will still be ugly!

Same here, but it wasn't a problem. Also, it was almost entirely limited to the upper class people here since it was out of the reach of most any other class due to the cost.

uhhh no....it was pretty damn cheap and in most 'patent medicines' which were largely aimed at the poorer folks...

On Ken Burns Prohibition documentary it was said that the average American consumed 15 times the modern American per year in the mid 1800's. It also said alchoholism was rampant in America during those times. To the point of we had an international reputation for it.

And Coca-Cola was originally made with a bit of cocaine as an ingredient.

From an article I read sometime in the last couple of years, it actually still is, although in miniscule amounts. Coca Cola actually has a federal permit to import, if I remember the amount correctly, 2 tons of cocaine per year.

they still have extract from the plant in Coke but no cocaine....cocaine does come into the US legally as a pain killer for ear, nose and throat surgery....

Maybe that's it, then. They still import a couple tons of the coca leaves. Been a while since I read that article.

It takes a lot of different paths to win a war. Benjamin Franklin was 70 years old when war broke out yet his efforts in France contributed as much to the American victory as anyone. Thomas Jefferson never picked up a rifle but his Declaration of Independence was the founding document for the revolution that brought the Americans together as a nation. They might not have been soldiers, but they weren't meek men. Neither of them were exactly saints either.

forget if its raw leaves or an extract they bring in but they use just a flavoring agent with no cocaine in it....could be they bring in raw leaves then sell the cocaine they kick out to a pharmaceutical company....not sure EXACTLY how they do it just know there is none of the chemical cocaine in the soft drink anymore but an extract from the coca plant is still used....

The people that get the credit weren't in the actual fighting because they were elite leaders. They hit a glass ceiling because they couldn't advance due to British rule so they got the fight started so they could gain their rightful place here in America.

From what I have read, Washington hated drunkenness. It was almost as intolerable to him as sodomy in his ranks. He seemed to drink more later in life probably to help with rheumatism (arthritis) and other aches from age, archaic medical practices, and a young life of adventure and war.

The high society people of that age suffered from problems we only laugh about or associate with the elderly. Gout and hemorrhoids were very serious and debilitating conditions due to their diet. In fact a young Washington was in military service and could not ride his horse due to such a bad case of hemorrhoids.

They were different times and lunch time was often the major meal and was a time to start indulging. There wasn�t a �it�s 5:00 somewhere� attitude. I can only imagine how bad a problem someone must have had to be labeled a drunk in those days.