Home

Drugs vs. Chairs

Quote


EpiPens, useful medical devices which reverse potentially fatal allergic reactions, have recently quadrupled in price, putting pressure on allergy sufferers and those who care for them. Vox writes that this “tells us a lot about what’s wrong with American health care” – namely that we don’t regulate it enough:

The story of Mylan’s giant EpiPen price increase is, more fundamentally, a story about America’s unique drug pricing policies. We are the only developed nation that lets drugmakers set their own prices, maximizing profits the same way sellers of chairs, mugs, shoes, or any other manufactured goods would.

Let me ask Vox a question: when was the last time that America’s chair industry hiked the price of chairs 400% and suddenly nobody in the country could afford to sit down? When was the last time that the mug industry decided to charge $300 per cup, and everyone had to drink coffee straight from the pot or face bankruptcy? When was the last time greedy shoe executives forced most Americans to go barefoot? And why do you think that is?

The problem with the pharmaceutical industry isn’t that they’re unregulated just like chairs and mugs. The problem with the pharmaceutical industry is that they’re part of a highly-regulated cronyist system that works completely differently from chairs and mugs.

If a chair company decided to charge $300 for their chairs, somebody else would set up a woodshop, sell their chairs for $250, and make a killing – and so on until chairs cost normal-chair-prices again. When Mylan decided to sell EpiPens for $300, in any normal system somebody would have made their own EpiPens and sold them for less. It wouldn’t have been hard. Its active ingredient, epinephrine, is off-patent, was being synthesized as early as 1906, and costs about ten cents per EpiPen-load.

Why don’t they? They keep trying, and the FDA keeps refusing to approve them for human use. For example, in 2009, a group called Teva Pharmaceuticals announced a plan to sell their own EpiPens in the US. The makers of the original EpiPen sued them, saying that they had patented the idea epinephrine-injecting devices. Teva successfully fended off the challenge and brought its product to the FDA, which rejected it because of “certain major deficiencies”. As far as I know, nobody has ever publicly said what the problem was – we can only hope they at least told Teva.

In 2010, another group, Sandoz, asked for permission to sell a generic EpiPen. Once again, the original manufacturers sued for patent infringement. According to Wikipedia, “as of July 2016 this litigation was ongoing”.

In 2011, Sanoji asked for permission to sell a generic EpiPen called e-cue. This got held up for a while because the FDA didn’t like the name (really!), but eventually was approved under the name Auvi-Q, (which if I were a giant government agency that rejected things for having dumb names, would be going straight into the wastebasket). But after unconfirmed reports of incorrect dosage delivery, they recalled all their products off the market.

This year, a company called Adamis decided that in order to get around the patent on devices that inject epinephrine, they would just sell pre-filled epinephrine syringes and let patients inject themselves. The FDA rejected it, noting that the company involved had done several studies but demanding that they do some more.

Also, throughout all of this a bunch of companies are merging and getting bought out by other companies and making secret deals with each other to retract their products and it’s all really complicated.

None of this is because EpiPens are just too hard to make correctly. Europe has eight competing versions. But aside from the EpiPen itself, only one competitor has ever made it past the FDA and onto the pharmacy shelf – a system called Adrenaclick.

And of course there’s a catch. With ordinary medications, pharmacists are allowed to interpret prescriptions for a brand name as prescriptions for the generic unless doctors ask them not to. For example, if I write a prescription for “Prozac”, a pharmacist knows that I mean anything containing fluoxetine, the chemical ingredient sold under the Prozac brand. They don’t have to buy it directly from Prozac trademark-holder Eli Lilly. It’s like if someone asks for a Kleenex and you give them a regular tissue, or if you suggest putting something in a Tupperware but actually use a plastic container made by someone other than the Tupperware Corporation.

EpiPens are protected from this substitution. If a doctor writes a prescription for “EpiPen”, the pharmacist must give an EpiPen-brand EpiPen, not an Adrenaclick-brand EpiPen. This is apparently so that children who have learned how to use an EpiPen don’t have to relearn how to use an entirely different device (hint: jam the pointy end into your body).

If you know anything at all about doctors, you know that they have way too much institutional inertia to change from writing one word on a prescription pad to writing a totally different word on a prescription pad, especially if the second word is almost twice as long, and especially especially if it’s just to do something silly like save a patient money. I have an attending who, whenever we are dealing with anything other than a life-or-death matter, just dismisses it with “Nobody ever died from X”, and I can totally hear him saying “Nobody ever died from paying extra for an adrenaline injector”. So Adrenaclick continues to languish in obscurity.

So why is the government having so much trouble permitting a usable form of a common medication?

There are a lot of different factors, but let me focus on the most annoying one. EpiPen manufacturer Mylan Inc spends about a million dollars on lobbying per year. OpenSecrets.org tells us what bills got all that money. They seem to have given the most to defeat S.214, the “Preserve Access to Affordable Generics Act”. The bill would ban pharmaceutical companies from bribing generic companies not to create generic drugs.

Did they win? Yup. In fact, various versions of this bill have apparently failed so many times that FDA Law Blog notes that “insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different result”.

So let me try to make this easier to understand.

Imagine that the government creates the Furniture and Desk Association, an agency which declares that only IKEA is allowed to sell chairs. IKEA responds by charging $300 per chair. Other companies try to sell stools or sofas, but get bogged down for years in litigation over whether these technically count as “chairs”. When a few of them win their court cases, the FDA shoots them down anyway for vague reasons it refuses to share, or because they haven’t done studies showing that their chairs will not break, or because the studies that showed their chairs will not break didn’t include a high enough number of morbidly obese people so we can’t be sure they won’t break. Finally, Target spends tens of millions of dollars on lawyers and gets the okay to compete with IKEA, but people can only get Target chairs if they have a note signed by a professional interior designer saying that their room needs a “comfort-producing seating implement” and which absolutely definitely does not mention “chairs” anywhere, because otherwise a child who was used to sitting on IKEA chairs might sit down on a Target chair the wrong way, get confused, fall off, and break her head.

(You’re going to say this is an unfair comparison because drugs are potentially dangerous and chairs aren’t – but 50 people die each year from falling off chairs in Britain alone and as far as I know nobody has ever died from an EpiPen malfunction.)

Imagine that this whole system is going on at the same time that IKEA spends millions of dollars lobbying senators about chair-related issues, and that these same senators vote down a bill preventing IKEA from paying off other companies to stay out of the chair industry. Also, suppose that a bunch of people are dying each year of exhaustion from having to stand up all the time because chairs are too expensive unless you’ve got really good furniture insurance, which is totally a thing and which everybody is legally required to have.

And now imagine that a news site responds with an article saying the government doesn’t regulate chairs enough.


It is not only in the medical community, this whole lobbying is out of control. It is just buying Congressmen to screw the people, no matter what section is doing it. miles
Thanks for the link. That explains a lot about why some drug prices skyrocket. Effectively, Mylan has a monopoly; one they pay a lot to maintain. However, the word is getting out about AdrenaClick and if enough doctors and patients start specifying it the jig will be up for Mylan.
Their price for epipen is simply unconscionable.

They used to less than $50. (A long time ago). And there's less than a dollar's worth of epinephrine in them. Plus the price of an injector.
I used to carry an Epi-pen. When the last one expired the co pay for a new one was $630.00.

I now carry 2 pre drawn syringes in a toothbrush holder. The cost of the same medication used in an Epi-pen was $7.oo.

I have never liked needles much but for a savings of $623.00 every 6 Months I now know how to give myself a shot.
Before the hikes, they were like $50.00. Now they're over $600.00. So Mylan is "doing us all a favor" and they'll bring out a "Generic" epi pen for around $300.00. Man, they sure have big hearts don't they? They cut the price in half for us. Now it's only 7x the price as it as before...What swell guys.
simplistic and sophomoric. There is so much more than that at play with drug prices. If you think prices are too high, in general, it's because of the FDA or the DOJ. Both drive the price. Blame a politician, a bureaucrat or a lawyer, not the company that makes and sells the product. They make very little on it, and on stuff like EpiPen, probably lose money.
Bob Brinker really went off on this last week on his Moneytalk show. Pure BS.
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
They make very little on it, and on stuff like EpiPen, probably lose money.


Yeah, probably a loss leader strategy.
But in this case, they were making money selling them well under $100. There were no NEW regulations on the company, no changes to their cost to produce...but there were new regulations for schools.

Seems the price hike came right after Mylan's lobbyists successfully pushed through a bill that requires epi-pens in schools in 11 states. So now that it's mandatory, why not raise the price by over 600%?

But yeah, it's everyone but the pharmaceutical company's fault.
Some people need pictures.

[Linked Image]

And if the company drops the price of the EpiPen, the CEO and executives are likely to lose millions of dollars each in incentive bonuses.

CEO's dad is Senator Manchin of West Virginia.
Each Epi-Pen has 0.3 mg of epi in it. Nowadays that's about 3 bucks worth of epinephrine. I've been giving that dose in the ER for 30 years now, for allergic reactions, when it was warranted. MYLAN is price gouging the crap out of people who's lives, and who's children's lives, depend on the availability of this apparatus. Not surprisingly, the CEO's yearly salary has increased from 2 million dollars to 19 million dollars during the same time period that the price has increased for the Epi-Pens. This is pure greed and nothing more.
Originally Posted by antlers
This is pure greed and nothing more.


While that's certainly a part, you're naive to think that's the only thing that allows this to happen.

The makers have a monopoly on the market, supported by the government (read: FDA). It takes $2M-3M to get the FDA to LOOK at your new drug, and a literal semi trailer of paperwork (read: more $$ for lawyers, doctors, researchers, etc). the makers have a corner on the market thanks to the federal government. They're only charging $630 because they can get away with it due to the (.gov supported) high barrier (read: $$) to enter the market. To think it's only greed is naive, possibly stupid. You'd be doing the same, simply because you could and should, were you the CEO with a board of directors and shareholders to please. If you didn't, you'd be replaced as CEO. Welcome to America, "capitalism," and the government mucking everything up.
Originally Posted by bigfish9684
Originally Posted by antlers
This is pure greed and nothing more.

To think it's only greed is naive, possibly stupid.

lol

AOL Time Warner, WorldCom, Enron, Tyco, Arthur Andersen, and MYLAN...'masters' of capitalism.

lol some more
Don't know if it's true, but I heard yesterday that you can buy the drug at a local drugstore, buy a syringe, and make one yourself on the cheap
Originally Posted by Tracks
Don't know if it's true, but I heard yesterday that you can buy the drug at a local drugstore, buy a syringe, and make one yourself on the cheap


You have to get a script from your doc for the epinephrine itself.
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
simplistic and sophomoric. There is so much more than that at play with drug prices. If you think prices are too high, in general, it's because of the FDA or the DOJ. Both drive the price. Blame a politician, a bureaucrat or a lawyer, not the company that makes and sells the product. They make very little on it, and on stuff like EpiPen, probably lose money.


Lolol. That's the silliest thing I've heard in awhile. Simplistic and sophomoric not to mention ignorant and uninformed describes the quoted post.
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
simplistic and sophomoric. There is so much more than that at play with drug prices. If you think prices are too high, in general, it's because of the FDA or the DOJ. Both drive the price. Blame a politician, a bureaucrat or a lawyer, not the company that makes and sells the product. They make very little on it, and on stuff like EpiPen, probably lose money.


Lolol. That's the silliest thing I've heard in awhile. Simplistic and sophomoric not to mention ignorant and uninformed describes MY post.


Fixt.

So lemme get this right, the FDA plays ABSOLUTELY NO PART in how the price of EpiPen got so high?
wonder if a convention of states will ever happen. Fed.Gov is out of control.
My god, why in the world doesn't someone just start making epipen knockoffs and sell them for $20 a pop? Someone could get rich in this market. I mean, there's no barrier to entry AT ALL!! Especially not the FDA approval process...
Big fish, You're over your head on this one, son. How many epi shots have you given in your life for allergic reactions? How many times have you pushed epi during a cardiac event? The FDA is a joke and shares a tremendous amount of blame for the prescription drug problems this country faces but this situation IS NOT the fault of the FDA.

Instead of changing my post, which I expected some dipshlt to do, you should educate yourself. It would help you to look less foolish, ignorant and immature.
Originally Posted by Steve

Drugs vs. Chairs

The problem with the pharmaceutical industry is that they’re part of a highly-regulated cronyist system





I'm here from the government and I'm here to help laugh
If you already have a prescription for an Epi-pen, the next time it expires just call the prescribing doc and ask for the $7.00 medication version along with a few syringes.

The shelf life of epinephrine is short (thinking 6 Month)... so if I get stung my thought process would go something like,"Damn that hurts... crap I'm starting to have a hard time breathing... man I hate needles... wait I'm saving over $1200 this year by poking myself in the leg with a conventional needle.... I'm going to buy that 6.5 Creedmore Montana I have been thinking about....".



Originally Posted by Mannlicher
simplistic and sophomoric. There is so much more than that at play with drug prices. If you think prices are too high, in general, it's because of the FDA or the DOJ. Both drive the price. Blame a politician, a bureaucrat or a lawyer, not the company that makes and sells the product. They make very little on it, and on stuff like EpiPen, probably lose money.


Epinephrine is an old drug-I mean very old. I'm retired recently now from giving anesthesia but the very last case I did was a healthy, young (30's) patient who presented for a normal and usual procedure and as we say in the vernacular, should have been a "walk in the park" anesthesia-wise.

It turns out she proceeded to a total anaphylactic shock due to some extraneous agent (I will not name here but not given me ). "Epi" and some other drugs and mucho fast decisions and action literally saved her brain and her life.

This drug in "epi-pen" form (which she now requires in multiple locations) should not be expensive. No figures or facts in hand but if I saw the glass house of the ACA on the hill, and had the opportunity, I walk up and throw the biggest rock I could. And as hard and fast as I could.
,
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Big fish, You're over your head on this one, son. How many epi shots have you given in your life for allergic reactions? How many times have you pushed epi during a cardiac event? The FDA is a joke and shares a tremendous amount of blame for the prescription drug problems this country faces but this situation IS NOT the fault of the FDA.

Instead of changing my post, which I expected some dipshlt to do, you should educate yourself. It would help you to look less foolish, ignorant and immature.


Yep.

The greed involved is holding allergic people financially hostage.

It's the sort of move that makes people make bad decisions.
Originally Posted by g5m
Their price for epipen is simply unconscionable.

They used to cost $15. (A long time ago). And there's less than a dollar's worth of epinephrine in them. Plus the price of an injector.

The cost of the drug gets mentioned in every complaint about Epi-Pen, but it's really meaningless since it's not just the drug one pays for.

It's the safety and convenience you're buying.

It was safe and convenient At $50 too.
Originally Posted by Snyper
It's the safety and convenience you're buying.

You're actually being bent over and horse-p h u c k e d with your pants on, under the 'guise' of safety and convenience.
I'd imagine that a large portion of that money went to the Clinton Crime Family Foundation.

The seem to have an awful lot of fingers in an awful lot of pies.
Originally Posted by poboy
It was safe and convenient At $50 too.


Stop making sense.
Originally Posted by ironbender
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Big fish, You're over your head on this one, son. How many epi shots have you given in your life for allergic reactions? How many times have you pushed epi during a cardiac event? The FDA is a joke and shares a tremendous amount of blame for the prescription drug problems this country faces but this situation IS NOT the fault of the FDA.

Instead of changing my post, which I expected some dipshlt to do, you should educate yourself. It would help you to look less foolish, ignorant and immature.


Yep.

The greed involved is holding allergic people financially hostage.

It's the sort of move that makes people make bad decisions.


Then answer my damn question: Why doesn't someone just start making and selling EpiPens and selling them for $20 a pop?

It's a really easy answer.
I'll ask it another way or two: What stands in the way of someone bringing a $20 EpiPen to market? If the drug portion is so cheap, why can't someone just start selling EpiPens and undercut the big guy and still make a profit?

Obviously there's a HUGE market for a cheap EpiPen, and the cost of goods sold is minute.
HINT: It's the FDA, which is part of what?
And don't blame this on the lawsuits. Patent is up on the thing. If you can't prove in court that you should be able to produce this without patent infringement, you hired the worst corporate lawyers money can buy.
The manufacturer or the patent owner sets the price not the FDA. Capiche?
Originally Posted by jimmyp
wonder if a convention of states will ever happen. Fed.Gov is out of control.


^Here's another hint^
Originally Posted by bigfish9684
Originally Posted by ironbender
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Big fish, You're over your head on this one, son. How many epi shots have you given in your life for allergic reactions? How many times have you pushed epi during a cardiac event? The FDA is a joke and shares a tremendous amount of blame for the prescription drug problems this country faces but this situation IS NOT the fault of the FDA.

Instead of changing my post, which I expected some dipshlt to do, you should educate yourself. It would help you to look less foolish, ignorant and immature.


Yep.

The greed involved is holding allergic people financially hostage.

It's the sort of move that makes people make bad decisions.


Then answer my damn question: Why doesn't someone just start making and selling EpiPens and selling them for $20 a pop?

It's a really easy answer.

I can't answer your damn question. I'm not in the business.

It doesn't change the fact that there is zero reasoning for the epi=pen to cost as much as it does; other than they can get away with it.

I get free market, etc as well as anyone, but there is a basic humane element being purposely avoided.
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
The manufacturer or the patent owner sets the price not the FDA. Capiche?



Did you read the part about the CEO of the epi-pen co. being the daughter of the politician Joe Manchin, or the fact the FDA interfered, and the competitors being denied by approval the FDA?

Not to mention the lobbyist.

Can you say pay to play?

We are becoming a banana republic.
The R&D on them, as well as the FDA studies on them, were done decades ago.

They charge as much as they can get away with. I think they found that point now.
That's right IB. Epinephrine is not new, isn't subject to recovering R&D costs nor is it an uncommon or highly specialized drug. In fact the opposite is true

Pure selfish, uncaring greed is the only motivation. Mylan does present a compelling argument FOR government mandated price controls however with this bullchit.
OK I will try to not be a dick (I'm good at that).

It takes $2,000,000 to $3,000,000 to get the FDA to go through the approval process... and up to 10 years in a lot of cases. It also takes so much paperwork to give to the FDA that it has to be delivered in a semi. That paperwork has tied up in it millions in research and lawyer and other associated costs.

That is the main barrier to which I refer, and the FDA is part of the federal government.

Another barrier is lawsuits brought by the patent holder. Of course they don't want any other entrants to the market- they want the monopoly/corner on the market so they can continue to make big bucks. How do they make more money? Raise prices since there's no other competitors. When your 20 years runs out on the patent, other generics can enter the market and you no longer have the market cornered.

As I understand it (and could be wrong on this point), others (henceforth 'little guy') have tried to enter the market but the patent holder sued the little guys successfully and somehow demonstrated to a judge that their patent was somehow infringed. This is the name brand meds vs. generic meds stuff you hear about all the time- generic is cheaper because the patent ran out and little guys entered the market.

Now in this case we have the courts and the FDA (henceforth: tha guvment) preventing the little guy from bringing his generic to market. This leaves the patent holder with their corner on the market. So why did the price go up?

1) Patent holder still has a monopoly on the market
2) Patent holder's CEO has responsibility to the shareholders and the board of directors to make stock go up and to make the company money, so they raise prices on the captive market (I'm not saying it is right, but a CEO that doesn't maximize profits is quickly replaced). This is why the price is now what I would call an unconscionable $630.

Is it right or ethical? I'd lean to 'no' at $630 a pop. But the bottom line is tha guvment (via primarily the FDA's high $$ barrier and the court's upholding patent infringement) is fugcking this all up.

I'm sure it's slightly more complicated, but to understand the problem you have to first understand why basic supply/demand isn't working like it should. Once you understand one outfit controls the entire supply, things become a little more clear. Once you understand how that one outfit remains the sole supplier, you see how the whole supply/demand thing works and prices are raised.

I'll quote Sam again:
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
simplistic and sophomoric. There is so much more than that at play with drug prices. If you think prices are too high, in general, it's because of the FDA or the DOJ. Both drive the price. Blame a politician, a bureaucrat or a lawyer, not the company that makes and sells the product. They make very little on it, and on stuff like EpiPen, probably lose money.


Only thing I disagree with is his last sentence. They're making plenty off this particular EpiPen product- it's dirt cheap.

The government gives you a 20 year patent when you 'invent' a new medicine. This allows the inventing outfit to hold a 20 year monopoly to recoup their operating costs (lawyers, researchers, 'ransom' $2-3M to the FDA, other operating costs, etc). After that other manufacturers can move in and undercut the market (unless they get their asses sued off and lose).

Do I agree with the $630 price? Of course not. But the patent holder has managed to keep their monopoly, right or wrong. And they can charge whatever they want. If I were the CEO of that company, I'd be charging a first-born for the EpiPen too, lest I get my ass fired. It's only because they can charge it that they do. They can only charge that price because the government has kept competitors out of the market. If someone brought another equivalent product to market for $20, no one would ever buy a $630 EpiPen.
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
simplistic and sophomoric. There is so much more than that at play with drug prices. If you think prices are too high, in general, it's because of the FDA or the DOJ. Both drive the price. Blame a politician, a bureaucrat or a lawyer, not the company that makes and sells the product. They make very little on it, and on stuff like EpiPen, probably lose money.


Lolol. That's the silliest thing I've heard in awhile. Simplistic and sophomoric not to mention ignorant and uninformed describes the quoted post.


not all of us can be a brain trust like you. I only spent years and years in the business. I think I have a dang good idea of how it works, and who is responsible for pricing.
Originally Posted by Snyper
Originally Posted by g5m
Their price for epipen is simply unconscionable.

They used to cost $15. (A long time ago). And there's less than a dollar's worth of epinephrine in them. Plus the price of an injector.

The cost of the drug gets mentioned in every complaint about Epi-Pen, but it's really meaningless since it's not just the drug one pays for.

It's the safety and convenience you're buying.



EPI-PENs did cost more than the price I gave. I found an old bill. Like $40 for the bill I found. I corrected the original post.
Originally Posted by antlers
The R&D on them, as well as the FDA studies on them, were done decades ago.

They charge as much as they can get away with. I think they found that point now.


No, it's a new drug because it is in a new format. The FDA isn't going to rubber stamp it without researching it, regardless of whether it's the same active ingredient+delivery method or not. That's not how the FDA works. If you don't like it, talk to your congress critters.

They can only get away with charging that much, because tha guvment has the infrastructure in place (FDA and courts) keeping a high barrier to entry in the market.

You guys, please stop letting your emotions get in the way of seeing clearly here just because someone is charging an exorbitant price because they can. That's called capitalism. The problem is tha guvment keeping competitors out of the market for one reason or another.
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
I only spent years and years in the business. I think I have a dang good idea of how it works, and who is responsible for pricing.


I worked in the medical industry long enough to see how tha guvment was screwing people over... and that was before Obamacare. Dying of cancer and there's a miracle drug that may cure you but it isn't FDA approved yet? TOO STINKING BAD!!! They're not going to rush approve it, even "if it can save just one life."

ETA Sam, I'd not mind hearing why you think this company might be losing money selling EpiPens @ $630 a pop.
Just now saw on news one can buy "personal amount" of brand name Epi pens in Canada, no prescription, for just over $100 and bring them back across border no problem. Helps to live near the border I imagine to keep costs down for consumers.

Probably already a thriving black market.

Why does it need replacing 2x annually? Drug deteriorates?
Yeah, that's true. And a company can count on an expense of 100-300 million to jump through the FDA hoops for approval.

At least, according to the companies. And I'm a bit curious about how much review and confirmation of the data presented by the company actually is done by the FDA.
So they can sell $10 worth of product and packaging (if that) in Canada for a $100 profit , but not in the US? Even with R&D. And pay CEO 19m a year.

If they weren't turning a profit in Canada, would they be there ?

Yeah I know about loss leader stuff and this ain't it.
Originally Posted by bigfish9684
Originally Posted by antlers
The R&D on them, as well as the FDA studies on them, were done decades ago.
They charge as much as they can get away with. I think they found that point now.

No, it's a new drug because it is in a new format. The FDA isn't going to rubber stamp it without researching it, regardless of whether it's the same active ingredient+delivery method or not.

I was talking about MYLAN itself. They don't have ANY of those costs to take into consideration.
More Brand Products

PRODUCT LOWEST UNIT PRICE
Epipen 0.3mg
Product of United Kingdom — Manufactured by: MEDA PHARMACEUTICALS $112.71 USD/pen
Epipen 0.3mg
Product of Canada — Manufactured by: Pfizer $158.52 USD/pen
Epipen 0.3mg
Marketed as Jext Pre-Filled Pen 300mcg in United Kingdom — Manufactured by: ALK-Abello This product is currently on back order.
Epipen 0.3mg
Product of New Zealand — Manufactured by: Mylan Pharmaceutical $131.11 USD/pen
Epipen 0.3mg
Marketed as Epipen Twin pack in United Kingdom — Manufactured by: MEDA PHARMACEUTICALS $113.70 USD/pen
No generic alternatives are available for this drug.


Above from a Canada Drug website.
Originally Posted by g5m
Yeah, that's true. And a company can count on an expense of 100-300 million to jump through the FDA hoops for approval.

At least, according to the companies. And I'm a bit curious about how much review and confirmation of the data presented by the company actually is done by the FDA.


The $2-3M to which I referred was just to get the process started and to the point where you basically drop off the drug at the FDA's doorstep. I did not mention the additional monies needed to get everything to the point where the FDA grants approval.
Originally Posted by bigfish9684
Originally Posted by antlers
They charge as much as they can get away with. I think they found that point now.

They can only get away with charging that much, because tha guvment has the infrastructure in place (FDA and courts) keeping a high barrier to entry in the market.

Just because they 'can' does not mean they 'should'.

Greedy bastards price gouging the piss out of folks unfortunate enough to have life threatening allergic reactions...or have children unfortunate enough to have life threatening allergic reactions.
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
simplistic and sophomoric. There is so much more than that at play with drug prices. If you think prices are too high, in general, it's because of the FDA or the DOJ. Both drive the price. Blame a politician, a bureaucrat or a lawyer, not the company that makes and sells the product. They make very little on it, and on stuff like EpiPen, probably lose money.


Lolol. That's the silliest thing I've heard in awhile. Simplistic and sophomoric not to mention ignorant and uninformed describes the quoted post.


not all of us can be a brain trust like you. I only spent years and years in the business. I think I have a dang good idea of how it works, and who is responsible for pricing.


If you have such a dang good idea of how it works then why are you being a dumb ass? I know you're a grumpy, down in the mouth old restauranteur with nothing positive to ever say about anything so tell us your experience with epinephrine and the restaurant business. One doesn't need to be a "brain trust" to know when you're full of shlt. Most of the time people pass over your negative Bullshlt but sometimes it's fun to call you on it. You are wrong but too old and pissed off at the world to admit it. Go buy a clue and STFU unless you think you can substantiate your Bullshlt.
BTW Sammy, epi is short for epinephrine not epicurean. I'm sure you make a mean tuna fish sandwich but I'll pass on taking pharmaceutical and medical advice from a guy that spent his life slinging food for a living.

PS...I also won't seek your advice on woman, marriage or happiness. You'd be smart to stick to things you know. The cooking forum is your huckleberry.
Epipen is a symptom of the problem of greed in our healthcare system. Surgeries that cost 300,000 and medications that double over night and health care premiums that are unaffordable and double every year. Not to mention the medicsl procedures found ineffectual and unnecessary every year. Our healthcare system is terrible
I did not read every post on this thread, but here goes. Any time the Government mandates anything, look for a big price increase. I read in one post where Schools were mandated to keep so much on hand, and it has a shelf life, so they have to buy new ones, even when they were not used, so bend over, everybody. miles
Miles, Very true that's why I'm surprised by the big democrat supporters like Sammy. The Mylan CEO is the daughter of demorat Manchin of WVa. She's raised the price of the product, bonuses herself and used millions to lobby for schools to keep her product on every campus across the country. Big government looking to line their pockets at the cost of Anerican lives. It's unacceptable to anyone but a democrat, of which this forum has a lot, somem wear interesting disguises.
Originally Posted by irfubar
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
The manufacturer or the patent owner sets the price not the FDA. Capiche?



Did you read the part about the CEO of the epi-pen co. being the daughter of the politician Joe Manchin, or the fact the FDA interfered, and the competitors being denied by approval the FDA?

Not to mention the lobbyist.

Can you say pay to play?

We are becoming a banana republic.
That's only the beginning. She is also a donor to the Clinton Foundation. And Obama had the Dept of Education mandate school districts to purchase Epi pens every year, even thought students cannot use them legally as they have to have a prescription and provide their own. When the government starts buying things from producers the cost shoot up due to paper work and other stipulations that have to be accommodated per contract.

They bought out the only other producer of Epi pens and created a monopoly that has gone unchallenged until now.
There are 8 competing verions in the EU. Only one has made it past the FDA. Therein lies the crux...
Historically the price of epi precluded other companies from replicating the product.

The FDA is a major problem, but in this case they don't shoulder the blame for the 500%+ price increases. Politics, cronyism and greed are the culprits in this case.
Originally Posted by Steve
There are 8 competing verions in the EU. Only one has made it past the FDA. Therein lies the crux...
Actually, the devil is in the details.
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Historically the price of epi precluded other companies from replicating the product.

The FDA is a major problem, but in this case they don't shoulder the blame for the 500%+ price increases. Politics, cronyism and greed are the culprits in this case.
This. And to be concise, evil.
Originally Posted by bigfish9684
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
I only spent years and years in the business. I think I have a dang good idea of how it works, and who is responsible for pricing.


I worked in the medical industry long enough to see how tha guvment was screwing people over... and that was before Obamacare. Dying of cancer and there's a miracle drug that may cure you but it isn't FDA approved yet? TOO STINKING BAD!!! They're not going to rush approve it, even "if it can save just one life."

ETA Sam, I'd not mind hearing why you think this company might be losing money selling EpiPens @ $630 a pop.


I guess a better way to look at it would be 'not making the profit margin they targeted'. Lots of factors can impact that, including, but not limited to State contracts, federal contracts, litigation, gearing up for a new version of the pen, HR costs, material costs, new EPA or FDA regulations in the manufacturing process................the list is endless.
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
Originally Posted by AcesNeights
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
simplistic and sophomoric. There is so much more than that at play with drug prices. If you think prices are too high, in general, it's because of the FDA or the DOJ. Both drive the price. Blame a politician, a bureaucrat or a lawyer, not the company that makes and sells the product. They make very little on it, and on stuff like EpiPen, probably lose money.


Lolol. That's the silliest thing I've heard in awhile. Simplistic and sophomoric not to mention ignorant and uninformed describes the quoted post.


not all of us can be a brain trust like you. I only spent years and years in the business. I think I have a dang good idea of how it works, and who is responsible for pricing.


If you have such a dang good idea of how it works then why are you being a dumb ass? I know you're a grumpy, down in the mouth old restauranteur with nothing positive to ever say about anything so tell us your experience with epinephrine and the restaurant business. One doesn't need to be a "brain trust" to know when you're full of shlt. Most of the time people pass over your negative Bullshlt but sometimes it's fun to call you on it. You are wrong but too old and pissed off at the world to admit it. Go buy a clue and STFU unless you think you can substantiate your Bullshlt.


this is where I usually insert GFY. If only I could be like you. laughing
Just googled the cost of an Epipen here in the UK and an NHS website says they pay around $40 each...

If that's true, that really shows the makers are ripping you guys off...
Pete,

Do you have advisability if that price is subsidized and if so buy how much?
Originally Posted by Steve
Pete,

Do you have advisability if that price is subsidized and if so buy how much?


Visibility... Stupid brain!
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
Originally Posted by bigfish9684
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
I only spent years and years in the business. I think I have a dang good idea of how it works, and who is responsible for pricing.


I worked in the medical industry long enough to see how tha guvment was screwing people over... and that was before Obamacare. Dying of cancer and there's a miracle drug that may cure you but it isn't FDA approved yet? TOO STINKING BAD!!! They're not going to rush approve it, even "if it can save just one life."

ETA Sam, I'd not mind hearing why you think this company might be losing money selling EpiPens @ $630 a pop.


I guess a better way to look at it would be 'not making the profit margin they targeted'. Lots of factors can impact that, including, but not limited to State contracts, federal contracts, litigation, gearing up for a new version of the pen, HR costs, material costs, new EPA or FDA regulations in the manufacturing process................the list is endless.


Thanks Sam. 5 years ago my copay after insurance for the EpiPen was $15. Wondering why it's now so much more. I would think if they really had those high operational costs they would be built into the cost of the drug from the get-go, and not raised the price as time went on due to operational costs. In my estimation, it's greed, because they can (for the reasons I already stated in this thread- .gov creating the conditions for the monopoly to exist).
Originally Posted by Mannlicher


this is where I usually insert GFY. If only I could be like you. laughing


I've been told worse. I can be a grumpy dick too but I figure a man that raised several children to become successful adults, basically by himself can't be too bad. Hope you and yours stay safe with the breezes blowing around you.
True capitalism requires minimal government involvement and ethical business owners. What we have today is not true capitalism. It is a muddy mess, taken over by government and unethical large business owners. True capitalism is farmers, manufacturers, professional service people selling their product or labor for a profit. Monopolies are rare when government stays out of the process. Unethical business owners are also rare when competition is free to rise. What the Epi-pen proves, is when government creates monopolies, it is the government who is at fault. It created the environment which allowed the unethical businesses to flourish. Your vote made it all possible. Look in the mirror. Tell yourself I did this, I made this muddy mess.
I think what many people still do not understand is that Mylan does not hold a patent on epinephrine, they hold a patent on a delivery system. It is the type of mostly foolproof, lawyer proof and idiot proof system that Doctors like to prescribe, because it's safe.

It's like holding a patent on the Bic lighter. You have a delivery system for fire, but if you charge 20 bucks for it people will just use matches.

When I was a kid (early 70's) I was prescribed epinephrine for bee stings and it was a plane old syringe like diabetics use all the time.

I switched to the epipens in the 90's because they were convenient and still relatively cheap.

Ia ain't paying $600 for a pair of epipens, I'll go back to a syringe, even if I have to convince my veterinarian that my cat has peanut allergies.
© 24hourcampfire