Can't say they didn't give him every opportunity. Damn shame. Glad no one else was hurt.

Published on Jan 13, 2017

Jerry Jackson, 63, of Fort Collins, was shot multiple times last year, newly released video shows. His death has been ruled a homicide by the coroner. Police said Jackson was brandishing a knife and not responding to commands when officers opened fire. Jackson was shot after police responded at about 7:20 p.m. to a report of a domestic disturbance involving a weapon, police said. The shooting happened in the 900 block of U.S. 287, between Colorado 1 and Shields Street. Police said they saw Jackson, identified as a suspect in the domestic disturbance, “illegally” enter the home of the woman who had called to report the disturbance. When Jackson came out of the home, he was brandishing a six-inch fillet knife. The three officers involved in the Aug. 25, 2016, shooting of Jerry Jackson, were cleared of any wrongdoing by the district attorney. This is the first body cam footage of its kind in Fort Collins. Courtesy of Fort Collins police.

I counted at least 6 rds fired, and I thought I heard them say 4 wounds.

Crying shame it had to end like that. Glad no body else was hurt. Hope the officers aren't suffering from it.

Sad....think the man was either just plain stupid or had a death wish.

He obviously bled out very fast...did you see his loss of color? Almost immediate.

At that distance I didn't see a threat.

"Jerry we're trying to help you."

Uh huh. Jerry done got hisself helped ahright.

Those body cams distort distance pretty bad. I think the rule of thumb is inside 21 feet. He had to have been close if they hit him with the taser twice.

They mentioned the strong smell of alcohol....

This. Seems to me the cops did all they could to keep from having to pop the guy. I feel bad for the officers. Sad.

Death by cops

i did.

Just seems like there were other options for Jerry, but I'm just a regular untrained citizen.

Woulda. Shoulda. Coulda. It'd been nice if the taser would have dropped him. It didn't. Woulda been nice if they'd had a bean bag round in a shotgun or some rubber bullets. But they didn't apparently. Jerry didn't give them a choice. Suicide by cop apparently. Sucks but there it is.

Yep, me too.

Jerry was repeatedly warned. Jerry looked like he was hit 3 times with a taser. At first Jerry would walk towards the officers, then pause. He did this a few times. After the tasers, Jerry walked without pausing right towards the officer who engaged him. I think Jerry's liquid courage got him killed. Good shoot IMHO.

I hope the officers are doing alright. Clearly, it's not the way they wanted it to end.

Pretty clear the cops are trained to keep people at great distance and even intoxicated, walking falteringly, pausing, out of it, he had a knife.

So shoot him.

Inside of 21' away guy with a knife can still cause bodily damage. The 21'"rule" has been in use for years . Guy has a deadly weapon and not listening to officer's commands . He had a choice of dropping the knife, instead he ignored and walked towards the officers. Wasn't anything they could or should have done differently in my opinion.

From over here it looked like Jerry, with his knife, was out in an open street many yards from posing an immediate threat to anyone. The officers walked up on him and shot him. They weren't backed into a corner or such. There were still obvious options to keep or make distance. Whatever. IDGAF.

It's great they kept him from getting out in the traffic and hurting himself.

So... You have multiple cops with guns pointed at you, telling you to drop the knife and not to come any closer. Multiple times. Multiple. "Don't do it, Jerry. Drop the knife, Jerry." "Don't come any closer, Jerry."

You refuse to do so, and continue advancing toward the cops with the knife in your hand and you get shot.

And it's the cops fault?

So crazy drunk Jerry phucqkker is outside and armed with a knife. There is no option for the authorities other than to kill him? Fault? Obviously.

Not trying to take up for anyone but they hit him with a Taser twice and multiple commands to stop or drop the knife. Jerry got what he deserved. Idiot does stupid crap like that and people are blaming the cops .

Well, bearing in mind you can't just leave the scene because you have a duty to take care of the problem... And a violent man armed with a knife and already has committed domestic violence, is a problem...

Just how would you have handled it?

I'm not hearing many solutions. Only judgements.

So they should have went hand to hand?

Either got a pass thru or someone was shooting behind him in the dirt..

Not faulting the cops or their decision, but wonder if some of those bean bag rounds would have dropped him, do they hurt pretty good?

Taser usually works , didn't in this situation.

I'm glad it wasn't my mobile home or that of a loved one in the background. I'd have at least tried to maneuver into a position without homes in the direct background before shooting.

Rockinbbar...
Not even a judgement. Just watched the video a couple times and offered an opinion. Shows officers walking a long ways forward towards the guy. Then the guy walks towards them and they shoot him. Not saying he wasn't in the wrong, nor not a threat. Expecting a drunk crazy phucqker to be rational? Musta crossed some line they drew in the sand? There appeared to be lots of room around. I really don't give a phucqk though, it's what happened. A guy's obviously better off not getting into such chit.

You gotta do what you gotta do and I don't want the cops getting fileted. But dang, that seemed like a lot of shots to make a drunk 63 year old drop his knife. Sure, he'd still be alive if he'd done as commanded. But dang, they shot him for a WHILE.

Yep.



I'd have shot his ass. He was told many times to drop the knife or they'd shoot. He didn't. He was told not to approach any closer and to drop the knife, several times. He didn't.

They tried several Tasers, to no effect, and he STILL didn't drop the knife and then accelerated toward them.

Yep, shoot him. He made that decision.



Jerry chose the solution. He chose poorly.

MtnBoomer, you and I are going to get tarred and feathered. I agree with you. Maneuver around, do some more talking, no need to mow ol' Jerry down just yet, far from it. Hell I've been in LOTS worse situations than that, a few of them, and nobody died, and I'm no badass by any stretch. Just use some common sense for krissakes.

When did "the right language" by police replace common sense? "We felt threatened" "the suspect repeatedly ignored warnings" That's sickening. They shot a man down in cold blood.

It's true ol' Jerry may have had a deathwish, but don't blow smoke up my azz and tell me those cops had to shoot Jerry at that point in time because they feared for their lives. If they feared for their lives, truly, instead of just repeating that BS talking point, then they need different training.

I get jumped by two guys with sticks beatin my azz, I fear for my life.

Drunk Jerry, no way. Not even close.

I can't help but wonder what the total number of responses to domestic disputes have been logged by the cop critics.

I always enjoy hearing the "21 Feet Rule" referred to as a legal standard.


mike r

Go back and listen to it. The one cop says after firing two tazers and they failed, "We're too far away".

Bad luck for old Jerry they prematurely ejaculated huh?

Looked like it took eight steps to get to the downed man. Too close for me.

Given today's climate, it was a good shoot............. I guess.

4ager,
So you've shot a lot of guys? I am sure reality is much different than what goes on in your mind.

Not tarring or feathering you.

If Jerry had dropped the knife, would he have been shot?

What was the actual distance involved?

Also, it wasn't cold blood. They gave him numerous chances, told him what would happen if he refused to drop the knife, backed off several times, tried Tasers, and only then shot him. Cold blood would have had him shot before all that happened.

Probably more than you.

And, the question wasn't whether I've shot guys, the question was what would you have done. In that situation, with all else they tried, yeah, I'd have shot him given the context rockinbbar laid out and the video showed.

What would you have done?

One things for sure, he won't do it again..

How many cops, 3? Why not split up by few feet so old drunk azz Jerry has to look around a little bit? He probably would have fallen over without help. With three separated targets instead all the cops in a cluster at least he would have had to make a choice and his intentions could have been more clearly discerned, at no more risk, IMO.

But hey, shoot him down. It's easier and the paperwork is clean because "we felt threatened" and "the perp moved towards us".

Hope ol Jerry didn't procreate in his 63 years, that was one stupid sombitch!

The flash at 3:09-2:10, did the officer on the right shoot again?

Just for the record, I bet Jerry was a real piece of work in every way. Still didn't see the reason why multiple cops couldn't do better than that.
Course, as a society we're at the place where police have the right to take human life any time someone gets within x feet of them and all they need to do to justify their actions is say, "I felt threatened". Sound like snowflakes in uniforms to me.

Oh damn, we used our non lethal means while too far away. Guess we'll have to shoot him now. That's some seriously screwed up judgement right there. Cost old Jerry his day in court.

The "oh dey din' hafta choot'm" sounds like the same mob mentality out of Baltimore, Ferguson, Detroit, etc., too; if we're going to just go to name calling.

Not like it was a fast moving situation and no time to estimate the range! LOL.

This^^

They didn't have to shoot him, they wanted to shoot him.

And they did.

3 Bad Ass Cops, all with night sticks, one old drunk.

Justified, legally; justified morally, well I think there's a lot of room for argument.

MM

So, what's the difference between Jerry getting shot like this and every LaQuan who refuses to drop a knife or similar that gets his ass shot off?

Down for 9 seconds, and shot again. Then the Bandaids... He wasn't even black. They don't get Bandaids.

Heard him say, "Wait, he's still 22 feet!" <<<<------ Kidding!

Sean, got a lot of respect for ya brother, and NOBODY here wants a cop injured or killed, but Jerry wasn't much of a threat to three "trained" cops, knife or not. Gun, hell yeah, scary situation.

4ager is an eggspurt on everything on this planet. Same when he was VaNimrod.

Fuggin' internet cowboy.

Them cops ever quit the force, they can go right inta a career as a horse vet.

First cure don't work, shoot em.

Like I said, I ain't "tar and feathering" you; just differing in opinion. Same situation as the cops; same things tried and Jerry wants to keep hold of that Rapala and advance? Well, Jerry just chose poorly and gets what he was told was coming.

Just drop the [bleep] knife, Jerry.

Another sock puppet. Yippee.

I answered his question.

Which bitch is using this "throwaway account" today?

Depends on the situation, black or white; each stands on its own merit.

Some definitely warrant killing, some don't.

I don't think this one required killing.

JMHO

MM

I've got a brain, arguably not much of one, but I can easily discern the difference between a "Jerry" and a "Tyrone".

Jerry (was) probably alive at his age because he didn't make a habit of doing this. Tyrone usually doesn't make it to 25 because he does. Therefore, I have no problem "profiling" (nothing more than a communist PC word anyway) all day long and staying alive in the process.


Yeah, drunk Jerry was a dumbsheit, pretty obvious what he should have done. But he's dead now, so no worries. The three untrained cops live to kill someone w/o ramifications anther day.

Fair enough.

I don't think Jerry needed to die, but Jerry forced that hand.

Damned shame, all the way around.

About a minute to reply.Monitors all threads. Get a f!ucking life. Like I said. An interweb cowboy.

You know, I was in agreement with you, right up to the last bit. Do you honestly think they wanted to kill him? Do you honestly believe that those cops are both untrained and sociopathic enough to seek out opportunities to kill people?

Hello, bitch.

Keep following me around; it's been a while since I had a stalker troll (well, since BOWSINGER's sock puppet account was outed anyway). You ain't much, but meh, you'll do. Odds are, you've been run off under another name before anyway and this one won't stick any better.

Things have changed. Training's different.

When I was a rookie, the crusty old sergeants said, if you can't take a knife off someone, you shouldn't be a cop. Just the way it was.

No one wants to get stabbed, but I saw a lot of leeway there for those cops. It was obvious old Jerry decided it was time to go.

It was a "legal" shoot. It wasn't a morally good shoot. Not yet.

I'm reminded of the shoot at Columbine. Cops outside and gun shots going on inside and not one cop willing to go in and end it! Nobody wants to take a risk anymore? You mean to tell me, three cops with night sticks couldn't subdue this guy from three sides?

Jesus, I'm getting tired of making excuses for my brothers in blue, but someone already said it. They "Wanted" to shoot.

It sounds like I got it right about 4ager about being a bloviating buffoon.

Nope, you got called and you're taking a pass. Go figure. The thread's about Jerry and cops, not me.

Whether they had to or whatever, I found the procedural part of the aftermath surreal.

Bangbangbangbang... man lying on ground with multiple through and through wounds to the upper torso. "Jerry, stay down. You're under arrest". I think he was complying by that time.

A few seconds later as they approach, "Jerry, drop the knife, we're trying to help you." Okay, that one is rich with possibilities.

I'm sure they followed proper procedure, officer safety and all that and no one who wasn't actually there can really find fault in doing so, but the juxtaposition of proper procedure with a man bleeding to death on the ground - be it his fault, the cops' fault or the fault of his abusive father when Jerry was a kid - seems very Kafkaesque.

I honestly believe that their field of fire was VERY, very poorly scoped,almost unbelievably stupid,and that they were NOT thinking about the folks residing downrange.

GTC

Good shoot, in my untrained opinion, But I do have to wonder why bean bag rounds and that guns are not standard issue
per Cruiser
Folks are getting shot at distances too far for a taser.
Why not to use a less than lethal with longer range??

Well, I am not a cop. That being said, for the people that feel like the shoot was unjustified, what would you have done?
Try to contain the suspect somehow? The tazer didn't work.They had a busy street right behind them, from the sounds of things. Do you let the guy continue to approach, and go 'hand to hand' with him on the ground?
I'm not trying to be contentious, but am genuinely curious as to how the police should have contained this man?

Gotcha. I simply disagree. Maybe it's because I know too many damned good cops; maybe I just think better of them than that - whatever the reason, I simply disagree.

Old days, cops was trained to whack this guy outta the knife, and tune him up to prevent a repeat.

Now, cops is trained to make a video that justifies shootin.

So that's what they did. The guy, out of his mind maybe, agreed to star in the video.

It's the mindset that's drilled into them.

All I can say is I hope ever damn person I meet on the street views me as much of a threat as these three cops viewed Jerry. Maybe they'll leave me the fook alone.

It's all good if we say the right things on video, and let him hit that 21' threshold.

I thought I said that already.

A man charging can cover a lot of ground in a few seconds. I know. But instinct should come into play. Discretion. Three men should be able to take a drunk with a butcher knife. Hell, a drunk can barely stand. Get him circling around to cover his 6 and he's gonna fall on his face. There would be plenty of time to kill him if that didn't work.

I don't feel a bit bad for Jerry. He got what he wanted. I just don't want anyone patting these cops on the back and calling them heroes! They weren't. This wasn't a "Kill or be killed" scenario.

Screw it.

Well pardon me all to tears for thinking it needed saying again.

GTC

Letting somebody with first hand experience speak for me. I never had a drunk old man threaten me wih a knife. But creeps, the cop whose shoulder we're looking over pops 3 rounds in less than a second at an old drunk dude that couldn't have run if a bear, no wait, a cop was after him.

Whatever happened to three guys wade in there and give Jerry a happy tap with a baton and drag his butt off to jail?

I'm betting these three cops were bedwetters right up til they graduated academy.

Thank god he doesn't post in the cooking section. He invented pancakes don'tcha know.

I just cannot understand why they shot Jerry, disarming him would have been so much better.

http://m.wafb.com/wafb/pm_/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=od:Yifv6wfP


Two sisters of Grand Coteau Interim Mayor Shaterral Johnson were stabbed while trying to stop 35-year-old Harrison Lee Riley Jr., of Arnaudville, from stabbing his wife. 40-year-old Shameka Johnson, and Officer Henry Nelson both died on the scene. 51-year-old Nelson was responding to the scene of a stabbing on Anna Street when he was shot by Riley with his own gun. According to the sheriff, Riley had taken the gun from Nelson during a confrontation.

Spot on & in the end, this incident surely will do nothing to further the (badly needed) credibility of the PoPo's.

At least with about 90% of the populace.

Everybody loses.

MM

Ok last one.

Cop confronts drunk. Claims drunk is, what is the correct terminology for "not of his right mind because drunk" and is therefore impaired.

But, later when in court, "everything you say can and will be used against you" comes up, AS IF YOU WERE IN YOUR RIGHT MIND. Like a drunk never said anything false or stupid in the history of mankind!!

On the one hand impaired and lacking judgement, on the other hand, "Oh yes, the defendant confessed to kicking puppies your honor". And we believe him because he told us that when he was DRUNK!

Just thinking out loud.

Poor stupid Jerry.

Everybody a Monday morning drill sergeant. The cops went from verbal commands to two tazer attempts. There aren't any long range tazers - cops use what their city or county gives them for force options. Cops aren't trained to disarm assailants with deadly weapons. Batons and PR-24's are frowned upon as too imposing to the public. There still are plenty of ASP's out there though. Some here watch too much television and have unrealistic opinions.
Drunk, sober or suicidal, Jerry forced the issue. Society insists on body cams to document actions. Well, you saw it and if you dislike what the cops did, don't call 911. Take care of it yourself.

Jerry got himself killed. Were I one of the cops I'd have bumped him with the cruiser. Jerry appeared so drunk he would have gone down from a soft bump. JMHO

Bigwhoop.

I've done it. Knives and guns. Coulda killed on three different occasions and been legally justified. Didn't have to. Instinct and discretion.

These cops did what they did. They aren't heroes here. Maybe they have been. Maybe they will be. But here, they weren't.

That's just me.

As a retired bouncer, I have some experience handling belligerent drunks. Not armed, but also had to deal with them at close range, in dark places, with lots of people around.

Talking a drunk down is a very easily acquired skill. It's not rocket science. If that doesn't work, give him half a fifth, and he puts himself out.

The problem with these scenarios is that the cops want it fixed NOW, THEIR WAY, RIGHT NOW. What's the dam hurry? They get paid by the hour?

Thread title says it all.

It's almost funny to read these scamps (who have no LE training) comment on how the cops in question were "untrained", "trained to kill", and so forth.

Several folks have repeated the assumptions that of' Jerry was just drunk, he wasn't no real threat, etc. but these are the sorts of assumptions that get people killed. These cops have been trained to know it, too. Every police academy in America teaches cops that making assumptions like that can get them killed.

"Ol' Jerry was just a harmless old drunk." Really? And you know this how? You roll up on this domestic like these cops did, you know NOTHING except he's already committed domestic violence of some kind and he's got a knife he refuses to drop. He may be highly trained in knife fighting. He may not be drunk at all, but only has booze spilled on his clothes.

He may be 60+, or he may be 40-something. Appearances can be deceiving. Regardless, I've seen trained and fit old guys whip young guys' asses barehanded. What if this guy is martial arts trained and really knows how to use that knife? An expert with an 8" knife could fillet 3 guys in seconds at close quarters.

He may be drunk. Doesn't matter, really. I've fought guys with BAC's in the .020-.030 range who were phugking demons, and so has every cop who's done serious patrol time.

Again, he may not be drunk. He may be on PCP or "synthetic", and that could explain the Taser's ineffectiveness. I've seen a stoner on PCP take 3 full rides from Tasers and not even flinch. There's a training film out there that shows a naked guy on PCP with a knife slice n dice a female officer while being teased multiple times, then smash through a board fence bare-handed, then cut off his own penis with the knife with no apparent pain and then charge the cops with the knife again. Want to try to disarm that guy with a baton? I don't.

Listen, I don't care one way or another what you armchair experts' opinions are on the conduct of these officers. If you haven't done the training, you're not qualified to render an opinion. If you haven't dealt with these situations in the street, you're again not qualified. Your naive assumptions clearly disqualify your opinions as far as I am concerned.

The only people whose opinions mattered here were the people who sat on the board of inquiry and/or grand jury. THEY most assuredly had the training, the experience, and the legal knowledge to exonerate these officers.

The rest of this is just blather.

This^^^.

Yup, me too, I wouldn't have shot the old idiot, but I'm kinda stupid that way.

.. Off to LiveLeak I go...

Dutch, all due respect and all, but fighting belligerent drunks at a bar is a very different animal from fighting a deranged criminal who hates cops and wants to really, really hurt the guy in the uniform.

I'm inclined to agree with Dan Chamberlain in that I would probably have handled it differently. But it may not have produced better result in the end. These guys got the fight they got, and they did what they did, and they were not found liable for wrong-doing. It's all over now.

Jerry got what he was lookin' for,....I have NO problem with his timely demise,....that's between him and those three cops.

What's out there in the training curricula re: fields of fire, and bystander safety ?

Just kinda' curious

GTC

Haven't seen an answer when I first asked, so I'll ask again.

Are beanbag rounds used for this type of encounter or are they reserved to disperse crowds and other non-threatening types of situations. What's the SOP on those? Officer discretion and availability?

IMHO this is unrealistic. There are a whole bunch of people who do not sit on the board of inquiry nor the grand jury but who do, in fact, vote. These are the people who put the LEO commanders in office because they VOTE. Their opinions matter, IMHO.

You know, I've fought with drunk inmates a bunch of times. I've dumped entire cans of FOX O.C. square in their face and they kept fighting. I've seen it take 4 officers to keep one down.

Crazy drunk, with the pertinent word being crazy.

Get withing 25 feet on me with a 6" filet knife and time for less than lethal tactics is over. Getting within touching distance, ain't gonna happen.

Rule #1 is I go home safe and sound.

I would have shot him.

Greg, to answer your question, these cops performed at what I would call a basic patrol competency level. I don't think they were trained in team-fighting, but that's an assumption based on very limited information.

One of these cops considered it. You can hear him say he's got "less-lethal" in his squad, then he curses because he knows he can't go back for it now.

It might have worked, you never know. 12-gauge beanbags hurt like a [bleep], and can change a subject's mind in a hurry. But ol' Jerry's lack of response to the Tasers suggests otherwise. Tasers are, of course, less-lethal response as well.

Those opinions matter on two fronts. First, in the political arena. Good luck with that, I wish you well. Second, and more important, is when people watch it and make a mental note that they might not want to do like Ol' Jerry did if they want to keep on living. That's all the opinions that matter.

Maybe the officers could have evaded Jerry by moving a little? There was LOTS of room and the ol'phucqk was barely standing... Shot him once more when he's been down for nine seconds. We're trying to help you? Righteous. Indeed. Whatever. Still don't GAF.

Damn shame. The officers will be affected they will carry it with them for the rest of their lives, Always.......It will never go away.

To bad Jerry had to die but Jerry forced the issue.

I heard the officer say he had less lethal in the car, but when the taser showed up I thought thats what he was talking about?

Jerry was tased twice, those were his two strikes. Continuing toward the officers with a deadly weapon was strike three. Maybe there are kung fu cops that enjoy going up against a deadly threat mano a mano, but Jerry got what he deserved. Miscreants in that area just learned how far they can push the cops.

I for one, will never criticize any LEO for choices made by the perp. In this case, the perp had a choice to make. He made it, with full warning of the consequences.

If you find it, post the link!

I think Jerry was too freaking drunk to know just what he was doing.


On one issue Doc got it absolutely right. "Second, and more important, is when people watch it and make a mental note that they might not want to do like Ol' Jerry did if they want to keep on living."

I never, ever, ever under any circumstances want to interact with the police in any way, shape or form. Not as a suspected perp, not to offer assistance or information or help in any way and I definitely know better from experience not to go to them for "help" (no pun intended on the "we're trying to help" line).

As far as I am concerned they are all hammers and we are all nails and I will continue to assume such. The police here might think that unfair and too simplistic but just as the police have to adopt their attitudes and assumptions toward every stranger they meet for officer safety, I have to adopt that attitude for Jim safety.

They have their job, it is tough and I sure couldn't do it, but there is a divide between us that is nobody's fault, it is apparently inevitable and that's just the way it is.


And I base that not on internet videos, but on the fact that my "brother" was a cop, my brother in law who I knew since I was 9 and he was 14 was a cop, at age 16 I rode with police officers on patrol as part of the Ft. Lauderdale Police Youth auxiliary, I've sat around and had drinks with my brother and BIL and their cop friends and listened to cops tell their stories and voice their true opinions of those they "serve" when they didn't know I wasn't a cop and based on those things plus personal experience when I went to the police for help or even routine administrative issues, I want no part of anything to do with police officers, ever.

Live long, be safe and may our paths never cross for any reason.



Added: One funny thing I just realized is that three of the nicest, warmest and most personable people I've ever met were older retired police officers, while some of the meanest, nastiest, chip on their shoulder people I've ever met were active duty. Kind of interesting to note that.

Doc, you're jumping to conclusions, I was a bouncer, not a fighter. In my career, I forceably removed exactly one person from the premises, and he was unharmed (since I tossed him in the canal to cool off, he WAS wet and smelly, however).

My point is that if you feel under the pressure of time, your choices are limited. When confronted with a belligerent drunk, there is a way to fix it NOW, and there's a way to fix it quietly, without disrupting anyone's day. That takes time. It takes communication, human interaction. The latter was my job - fix things quietly, de-escalate, and everyone goes home (and the people keep spending money...)

Does that translate to this case? Was there a way to de-escalate and save untold grief, tax payer money and community upheaval? I think there was. Was it legal? Apparently. Was it the best solution to the problem? No, no, I don't think so. I wasn't there, and I'm a long way away, but I think the cops felt an undue amount of pressure to subdue the individual immediately, instead of slowly de-escalating the situation and deliberately directing it to a non-violent resolution.

The cops were not in charge, Jerry was, and for an old phart with a knife to be in charge of three young, well armed, cops is simply an indictment of the cops.

You can justify it if you want and I won't argue about it. Jerry had plenty of opportunities but I have zero doubt that I could have taken a baton and put Jerry down without killing him,but then I ain't a cop.

glad I'm not a cop

appreciate all the good ones that serve.

what a chitty deal.

had a bud that was a CO for a time.

told me they booked a guy higher than a kite on something and a struggle ensued.


lil guy being booked. Had him down on the floor with an officer on each limb, and one sitting on his back. That's 5 CO's mind you.

said the guy was still making forward progress skooching (look it up) across the floor using his fingers .


did I mention I'm glad I'm not a cop?

Must have not been a good enough shot there to hit his knee, or other disabling place?

if you are in close enough proximity to use a baton, the knife is close enough for a lucky(unlucky) shot at your plumbing. a shot with a filet knife to the carotid or femoral and you are joining Jerry. the risk isn't worth it.

Here in Mayberry we would have rolled a fifth (if available) down the road to ole Jerry and suggested he sit down for a drink and think about it first.

Had a 6'5" drunk that used to get in the road and direct traffic. Always was drinking from a fifth of wine while doing so. He did like to fight and would do so if you didn't let him finish the bottle before cuffing him. Realized after the first time of not letting him finish, it was much easier to do it him way. GW

http://www.those-who-serve.com/tag/knife-wounds/

Agreed. Fact is if you give a cop a reason to shoot you, you'll likely get shot.

Ur chittin us right. Ok, cops shoulda just gone home. Yeah. Too bad you werent there to go grab and cuff him.

Nope. No chittin. Didn't claim they shoulda. Nor did I suggest I woulda... But, they sure as hell could have moved a bit, kept themselves a safer distance, since they're the rational, trained and sober ones - being they were in the goddammed open and had the time. Yep, just trying to help, I chit you not, we're drawing this line for you Jerry! I still DGAF.

When we die, may we all go from life to DRT as fast as Jerry appeared to go.

IME it is hard to judge distances on electronic media but the brief shot of Jerry in the same frame with the front of a Cop car gives an idea. He weren't very far away at all.

Clearly Jerry was having a bad day/bad life and decided to end it all.

I was struck by how scripted and rehearsed the Officers' actions were, clearly they were acting out their training. Its a good thing they are so well-trained, said training reflecting the collective experience of decades of modern policing based and the outcomes of thousands of prior incidents.

Was their training based upon many prior events involving drunk-out-of-their-gourd old guys shuffling along with a knife? Prob'ly not.

Could this have been handled differently by three fit and agile Cops versus one old drunk in such a way that Jerry survived? Possibly.

But, legally and morally, I don't believe the Officers did anything wrong. Jerry was driving these events, and clearly at that moment in time he wanted to die, whether he would have tried to take out one or more Cops with him is unknown but the very fact of approaching them with a knife has to be taken as intent to do that very thing.

Profoundly unfair of Jerry to put those Cops in that position, I hope it doesn't trouble them for the rest of their own lives.

JMHO,
Birdwatcher

Back in the 60's maybe.

Lawyers have seen to it that the option was permanently removed from the playbook.

Deadly force is exactly that.

Even using "less that lethal" force on a suspect has been morphed into a scenario where deadly force could be justifiably used, but tried as a last ditch effort.

We live in a nation that is also trained to avoid lawsuits at any cost... civilian or otherwise.

That's why I added the caveat"in today's culture" to my earlier post.

Damn, Jim........ you can't possibly know how many guys you spoke for in your post.

Sad situation for sure

Very sad indeed .... also possible he had been drinking a lot

Indeed, but he could stand, walk, and was dexterous enough to reach for the taser barbs and remove with no trouble, "the stupid" and "death wish" exceeded the alcohol.

Dogshooter, when you see that Reliable Game Processing sign turn in and the processor is on the left. Let me know how you like that deer. Processing bill is paid and it's ready to be picked up

Jim, I am right there with you.

I once had a crew foreman (under me as I was GM) that told the laborers under him, he'd hold his hand up in the air and say, "I'm up here", moves hand down to waist level, " and you're down here".

That's where we stand with cops.

Thanks man!! Em picked it up yesterday, strapped with a G43 as usual, incase of a knife wielding psycho.... we're having some for supper tonight.

Those folks at reliable are friends with her grandad... and are good folks for sure.

Guess I'm lucky FB, I've not had nary a bad situation with Coppers the world over, been around a lot of them too, foreign coppers wont even look at ya.

Glad I aint parked out by that sign right now.

Very much a threat

Then you watched a different video. They were there because he already assaulted someone. They gave him a 1/2 dozen warnings to drop the knife, or they would shoot. hit him with a taser, several times. They went towards him to see if they could apprehend him several times, and backed away..several times.

Drunk or not, a man with a knife is a deadly force.

If he was in your house would you just try to fight him? If he was in your yard would you just try to fight him? Even after you've backed away more than once?

The one's in Nicaragua stand along the roadside and wave you to the edge where they levy and collect the fine right on the spot. Maybe we need some of those instead of the bohunks we got.

LOL, wait till you meet a Chief and his posse in the jungles of Borneo.

What do they have on the Sandanistas?

They don't do tacos.

Why say it's a good shoot and then go on to mention what was wrong about it?
I don't believe any shoot is a good shoot. Some are just more necessary than others. This one wasn't necessary. Most everyone can tell that.

You occupy that position in any intellectual display.


mike r

You just need to know who and what warrants serious thought. You, and this, isn't it.

OK, that explains a lot. Perhaps you should request a font that indicates when your posts are based on "serious" thought.


mike r

If I'm a cop and a guy won't obey several commands to drop a deadly weapon, guess who is going home to his family? Done deal.

Yep. Different video. Those last eight small steps dumb ol' drunk Jerry took (stumbled) were too much, he crossed that line... Those guys could have backed up the same distance in a half of a half of a second. They held that position and killed him rather than moving. Absolutely a threat but they could have maintained a safer distance - such as the same distance as when the tasing occurred - by simply taking a few steps. A chitty deal, but IMO, at the first shot, there were options. DGAF though.

If a citizen with a carry permit had shot Jerry under the same circumstances he would face charges. A Prosecuter would not buy his claim of fearing for his life.

He might beat the charge but he would be out a bunch in legal fees.

I read about half the thread and saw all that I needed to see.

I've had a 6" Buck hunting knife stuck in me up to the guard-intentionally. Never going there again.
Just this week I also watched an obviously crazed person walk around in a busy parking lot holding a gun pointed at his temple for 5+ minutes.
You can't control what you can't control.
The officers obviously took control of the situation. They gave multiple options and Jerry paid no mind.

Not the deaf woodcarver!

Don't know if this is it, but it's the closest I could come up with..This guy is bloody, might have cut off his pecker before hand..

Yep, folks that don't understand this, usually, are not ones putting their life on the line....

WHO started this anyway? Damn sure was not the cops, it was Jerry's actions, as much of a shame as it is, Jerry did this, no one else.

What if Jerry had been...................black?

Laughing...

"Bang Bang Bang Bang.....Jerry put the knife down.....Bang....we're here to help."

Happy B-day Rost495.!

I do things in reverse often, and I just watched the video.

Those cops went above and beyond the whole time. Not a bit of negative video in there.

Not much more you can ask of LEO in those situations.

Those that don't agree, we'll just have to say I support LEO and I wished you would too. And tell the damn stupid drunks and druggies their habits have liabilities, one is getting dead one way or another... stupid will kill you quicker than most think.

You can bet your ass Al $harpton and Je$$e Jackson would have been there the next day mapping out the area for destruction.

It's not destruction Max, it's urban renewal.....
Tax payers and insurance companies will rebuild it.

Maybe in Texas. Here, if I were in that situation w/ the perp on film I wouldn't expect to be charged. If it became legally necessary to make a statement or answer questions , then I would engage my attorney.


mike r

The "21 foot rule" is not a legal standard. Rather it is a training method better referred to as the Tueller Drill.


mike r

I am not a trained police officer, but why does every police shooting involve many shots all in the torso. Jerry was an old drunk barely standing on his own. I will paraphrase Ron White , Jerry might have been told to drop the knife but not the ability to do so. Just because he is not able to understand instructions, he should be killed. Does anyone remember the video of the guy sitting with a gun in his hand and some cop sniper shot it out of his hand....
I think old Jerry was close enough for someone of limited abilities to hit an arm , leg or something. It's one thing the cops shot him, its another they need a 6 shells to make 4 hits in close range......Do cops practice with their carry guns anymore.
Like I said, I am not a trained LEO , but I would think I could hit Jerry with one shot where he was fully aware he needed to drop the knife and start listening to instructions.

Lawyers, amongst other things, make shooting the knife out of his hand or shooting in the leg, administratively impossible. Legally, dealing with a dead person is easier and cheaper. So I've heard.

You may be on to something. How cool would it be to start shooting at some doods hand from 40 yards away, with a handgun, as he approached? Maybe even cooler than bowling pins...

Of course, we'd have to get rid of that "fear" bullshit.

I talked two out of knives myself. Bottom line is that cops are not trained to disarm with a baton or stick. The cops are not heroes here in the traditional sense. Some will always second guess their action. One may quit, one may start drinking, one may lose his family - there are no winners. It is what it is.
Problem is when people are quick to second guess when they have no clue.

We have a clue.

Not similar scenarios. The citizen has the ability and legal right to retreat and call the cops. The cops do not have the ability to walk away. However if Jerry was approaching the citizen with a knife and the citizen had no ability to retreat, then that changes the outcome.

An even bigger problem is when people pretend to be experts...when they aren't.

Your clue is somewhat meaningless when cops are trained to react to scenarios based on their training, department policy, state law and their county attorney.

They didn't want to NOT kill Jerry enough, bottom line. As has been pointed out by lots of the posters here, they weren't out of options. Nobody will touch those though.

They shot their wad from too far away when they tazed him, twice. How stupid is that? It's not like this was an ambush and they couldn't keep up with the changing events. Could it be any slower for those cops to follow along?

All in all, ridiculous. Wouldn't want a cops job but this one is a no brainer.

True enough, I guess. If I had been there with a few trusted co-workers, I would have just said "Let's go...it'll be alright". You can always lie later.

Keep typing and digging. Everybody has the answers after its over with. Remember next time, don't call 911 - handle it yourself.

I have more than once. No one died. Pure luck I guess since I'm not "trained". If I had been no one would have gotten within 21' of me alive. LOL.

"Lol"...you can say that again.

I'm not aware of any agency that issues "beanbag rounds to patrolmen. we had them, along with a dedicated less lethal shotgun in the office, in 15 years I think they were used once

My point is that I don't believe the two cops were actually in fear for their life from this old drunk guy.

If they really were, then that's a scary thought for people who depend on cops for their safety.

I'm not saying they shouldnt have shot him, just that they were not in fear for their lives.

Pretty hard to evade the drunk that's barely walking when you are surrounded by open space.

Evading the drunk wasn't the issue. Lot of geniuses here that don't realize what reality is.
I suggest you folks become members of "citizen review boards" or local advisory committees if you feel you have a better grasp of ethics, tactics and the law.

That's nuts.

Most of us agree with Jims post.... we want nothing to do with cops.

Your reality seems to be:"Obey any order from any cop instantly or he will shoot you."

He wasn't black nor driving a pickup..... what's to fear?

The drunk is staggering toward them SLOWLY for like 1.5 minutes but those last 8 tiny steps changes it all? They're in the goddammed open. IMO, that is stupid to think that it is not relevant. He'd be easily evaded. Lot's of options besides killing him at that moment. Legal? Sure. Good? Not a bit. Shoot him again after he's been down for nine seconds? Yah, that was a good call.

It's pretty dumb to second guess things like this, but having BTDT many times, I can tell you how I would have done it. "Jerry, you got three choices. Hospital, jail or the morgue. Your choice."

...and never doubt this. It was his choice.

I am not saying its always possible. But when LEO do decide to shoot, they seem to shoot a lot of shells and don't hit much. If they tased him 3 times the were pretty close as tasers are not super accurate and short ranged. They then fired 6 or so shells and had 4 torso hits. Where did the pass-throughs and misses go? Into the trailer. Lucky they only hauled one body off. If you can hit someone 3 times with a taser, then you should be able to shoot one shell and hit a large NON vital part of a person. I could believe the paperwork on a wounded perp being worse then a dead perp.
Getting rid of fear is impossible. But with good training ,fear can be mastered.
With 3 officers present, they have the ability to have one negotiate, one to hold a forceful presence and one to close the back door. These guys tried the taser out, no luck, then Bang, Bang, bang etc.

What can I say? We can't shoot.

Where's Fishhead at, he's from Ft. Collins, I believe. His name wasn't Jerry was it..

Fishhead ain't stupid.

Whether or not the LEOs were in fear of their life is not relevant. They have accepted a duty to protect the public. They have accepted a responsibility to keep the public safe from knife weilding idiots.

It is their job to detain and arrest those committing crimes of violence.

When it is your time to be arrested, you can either comply with LEO instructions and take your case to a judge. Or you can advance on the cops with a lethal weapon and sign your own death warrent.

I am not a cop. But I am not in the habit of feeling guilty for choices made by other people. Had I been one of the cops in this video, I would have reacted as they did. (with perhaps the exception of the later shot after ther perp was on the ground).And I would not lose any sleep over it.

If street cops shot everyone that they legally could, and perhaps should their lives would be consumed by paper work and hearing.Most real cops deal w/ armed dangerous people on a regular basis and do not seek to kill anyone.

21 foot rule! Shoot the gun out of his hand! Shoot to wound! If I had a stick I would whoop him! Don't they know how to rassle?

Truly the chorus of the ignorant....some folk seem frightened to protect themselves because they can't afford an attorney and fear the cops more.

LMFAO


mike r

All cops are worthless, and every cop hater here is an expert in everything including world class marksmanship. At least thats what I take from it.

Never mind any opinions from ACTUAL LEO officers that were not involved and have no vested interest....

good point

Face it, anyone here that questions the veracity of the shooting would still understand the severity of the situation and not proceed as Jerry did. If you did as Jerry did, you too would be dead.

People have placed so much value on a life that society is paying dearly for that misplaced philosophy. When a threat or even a drunk loser continues in the manner Jerry did, the world and Jerry are better off with the results of that shooting. It is no different than sweeping the dirt up off your floor.

We have been told by forum cops that the standard for deadly force is the same for cops as for the public, and that it is based on FEAR, so that makes it relevant.

Unless the forum cops were wrong.

Where's a 16 year old girl when you need one?

<<Sigh>>

What, other than fear of death or grave bodily injury to a human being, should justify deadly force? Your morbid fear of cops, for instance would not be a legal basis for use of deadly force as it does not meet the "Reasonable Man" criteria.


mike r

Spent too much time in bars.

One constant, was that every once in awhile, some dude would get too hammered, to where they were walkin' like Ol' Jerry.

Fore you could blink twice, three "badasses" wanted to kick the shat outta the dude, for some perceived slight.

Cause they hadda chance to look badass, with no risk.

Resta the bar realized the dude was out of it, but had no need to try and prove their badassery.

These cops coulda been *true* badasses, with a little risk, or "badasses" with no risk.