To one and all I wish you the most spiritually fulfilling Easter yet. I join with you in praise and awe of the Son of God who died, was placed in a tomb, but rose from the dead showing one and all his defeat of death. Thru Jesus there is eternal life of the spirit for those who simply accept him for who he is; the one and only way to eternal life in heaven. Jesus, the Son of God who is God, who went ahead preparing for us our place there.
John 14 New King James Version
1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
Fulfilling his promise to rise from the grave Jesus appeared to his disciples in the risen flesh. What an incredible epiphany it must have been. I so look forward to seeing him in Heaven.
Luke 24:36-49 New International Version
36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.
44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”[/i]
My wife gave me a DVD of "Passion of the Christ" for Christmas maybe twelve years ago. Knowing that it is reputed to be very heavy-duty, it is still wrapped in cellophane. I'm thinking this Easter season is the time to finally see it.
Always seemed to me that Easter was really more important than Christmas, as it's the actual reason for the whole business.
Need the birth and the death to set up the Resurrection.
All are important. The Resurrection is the crown jewel, no doubt.
A side note: study Agape, that Divine Love, expressed by God becoming man to die in our place, a ransom for our sin. Satan could not defeat Agape, although he gave it his best shot. Because he was self centered and arrogant, Agape was foreign to him. To die for another, to humble oneself in service to another is Agape.
The natural mind can't understand it thru logic. Only the regenerated, Spiritual man can get a glimpse of Agape. St. Paul expresses it much better than I ever could: 1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
To me, the most mind boggling aspect is that Jesus actually took the punishment for all our sins---and not just by dying on the cross. To imagine the punishment that I myself deserve is terrifying. To contemplate the wrath of God in response to all of humanity's misdeeds puts me in a place I cannot begin to describe. He took all that for us, willingly. It's all just a lot more than I, myself, can comprehend!
I like the studio version of the song better but the explanation Andrew offers in this live one is deeply moving. Great triumphal entry tune but fitting for resurrection day also...
To me, the most mind boggling aspect is that Jesus actually took the punishment for all our sins---and not just by dying on the cross. To imagine the punishment that I myself deserve is terrifying. To contemplate the wrath of God in response to all of humanity's misdeeds puts me in a place I cannot begin to describe. He took all that for us, willingly. It's all just a lot more than I, myself, can comprehend!
Amen.
You see a lot of Love preached on the airways, not so much about God's wrath.
Religion's become pick and choose, cafeteria style. Ps 119:160, states that the "SUM of Your Word is Truth" That implies that pieces pulled from here and there, although truth, may not represent ultimate Truth. Another example of this concept: the WHOLE Passover Lamb was to be consumed, not just pieces and parcels they may have chosen.
To me, the most mind boggling aspect is that Jesus actually took the punishment for all our sins---and not just by dying on the cross. To imagine the punishment that I myself deserve is terrifying. To contemplate the wrath of God in response to all of humanity's misdeeds puts me in a place I cannot begin to describe. He took all that for us, willingly. It's all just a lot more than I, myself, can comprehend!
Amen.
You see a lot of Love preached on the airways, not so much about God's wrath.
Religion's become pick and choose, cafeteria style. Ps 119:160, states that the "SUM of Your Word is Truth" That implies that pieces pulled from here and there, although truth, may not represent ultimate Truth. Another example of this concept: the WHOLE Passover Lamb was to be consumed, not just pieces and parcels they may have chosen.
DF
Crazy thing is how this under emphasis upon God’s righteous anger for sin also cheapens grace...
Michael Horton condenses biblical truth to, “the bad news is our sin is far more serious than we could possibly know; the good news is that grace is far greater than we ever could have dreamed.”
The transaction of double imputation (my sin accredited to Christ/His perfect righteousness accredited to me) is the most amazing thing I’ve ever heard. The ludicrousness of it confirms to me the truth of Christianity; I can’t imagine a man thinking that up.
Always seemed to me that Easter was really more important than Christmas, as it's the actual reason for the whole business.
Need the birth and the death to set up the Resurrection.
All are important. The Resurrection is the crown jewel, no doubt.
A side note: study Agape, that Divine Love, expressed by God becoming man to die in our place, a ransom for our sin. Satan could not defeat Agape, although he gave it his best shot. Because he was self centered and arrogant, Agape was foreign to him. To die for another, to humble oneself in service to another is Agape.
The natural mind can't understand it thru logic. Only the regenerated, Spiritual man can get a glimpse of Agape. St. Paul expresses it much better than I ever could: 1 Corinthians 13:12 (KJV) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
That's strong; meditate on the Word.
You guys have a wonderous and blessed Easter.
DF
Yes, love can overcome Satan. Thus He said, above all things, love one another. The hardest commandment.
. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no Law.…
Self-control, the aspect in whether a believer chooses his own way, or Gods way? Proof of who rules one, the Father or the Flesh.
Always seemed to me that Easter was really more important than Christmas, as it's the actual reason for the whole business.
For three centuries it definitely was. Jesus's birth day was not even celebrated. Finally, the church decided to create a holiday honoring Jesus's birth. Unfortunately, by that time, they had no idea when that had occurred. They picked December 25 in order to co-opt a pagan Roman holiday that occurred at the same time.
We have a pretty good idea that the first Easter occurred on April 3but don't know whether it was 30 AD or 33 AD. The reason the date changes every year is because the Jews and the Middle East in general used a lunar calendar instead of the solar calendar(s) that the Romans used. The Moslems still use a lunar calendar.
Always seemed to me that Easter was really more important than Christmas, as it's the actual reason for the whole business.
For three centuries it definitely was. Jesus's birth day was not even celebrated. Finally, the church decided to create a holiday honoring Jesus's birth. Unfortunately, by that time, they had no idea when that had occurred. They picked December 25 in order to co-opt a pagan Roman holiday that occurred at the same time.
We have a pretty good idea that the first Easter occurred on April 3but don't know whether it was 30 AD or 33 AD. The reason the date changes every year is because the Jews and the Middle East in general used a lunar calendar instead of the solar calendar(s) that the Romans used. The Moslems still use a lunar calendar.
Anyway, Happy Easter, everyone.
Actually the same dubious timing was also applied to the western church's observance of Easter which ought to be attached to the timing of Passover rather than the spring solstice...
Crazy thing is how this under emphasis upon God’s righteous anger for sin also cheapens grace...
Hadn't thought of it in that way, but I think you're spot on. To be able to appreciate the value of grace and the sacrifice Jesus made of Himself, we need to be able to appreciate the enormity of God's wrath. In truth, I don't think we are capable of that. At least I'm not. Backing away from that a bit, trying to comprehend God's love for what He created in His own image and the lengths He has gone to in order to salvage it...it's just overwhelming. I wish there was a way to make everyone understand this.
My favorite Bible scripture is Luke 23:39-43. While I certainly do not believe one should wait until the last moment to be saved, as we never know when that last moment will be, it shows that no matter how hopeless our situation may be, it is never too late to ask God's forgiveness.
. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no Law.… .
Here's a neat way to remember the 9 Fruit of the Spirit.
Everyone remembers Love, Joy and Peace. The next six can be remembered as a "package of figs", (PKG, FGS).
My favorite Bible scripture is Luke 23:39-43. While I certainly do not believe one should wait until the last moment to be saved, as we never know when that last moment will be, it shows that no matter how hopeless our situation may be, it is never too late to ask God's forgiveness.
All the rapists and serial killers on death row seem to like that one also.
My favorite Bible scripture is Luke 23:39-43. While I certainly do not believe one should wait until the last moment to be saved, as we never know when that last moment will be, it shows that no matter how hopeless our situation may be, it is never too late to ask God's forgiveness.
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
My favorite Bible scripture is Luke 23:39-43. While I certainly do not believe one should wait until the last moment to be saved, as we never know when that last moment will be, it shows that no matter how hopeless our situation may be, it is never too late to ask God's forgiveness.
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
[b]41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”[/b]
My own favorite passage as well.
to help all of us neophytes out there who are struggling along, can someone help us with identifying the exact crimes that justify death on a cross? seriously, a lot of folks want to know. if we can bring back such a justice system, might it be a good thingy to do?
As far as Christmas goes - that day and Easter are the two days I will NOT pull a trigger. My little Grandma Shubert would spin in her grave, if she thought any of her kids, grandkids, etc. down the line - harmed anything or anybody on a holy day!
Crazy thing is how this under emphasis upon God’s righteous anger for sin also cheapens grace...
Hadn't thought of it in that way, but I think you're spot on. To be able to appreciate the value of grace and the sacrifice Jesus made of Himself, we need to be able to appreciate the enormity of God's wrath. In truth, I don't think we are capable of that. At least I'm not. Backing away from that a bit, trying to comprehend God's love for what He created in His own image and the lengths He has gone to in order to salvage it...it's just overwhelming. I wish there was a way to make everyone understand this.
I suppose it's normal for believers to better grasp the concept of Jesus' sacrifice as we grow older and unavoidably gain at least some wisdom thru life experience. But the concept of sacrificing one's child, guilty of no misdeed, for the misdeeds of others is still difficult for me to grasp. I've wrestled around with this conundrum on many more than one occasion. I've tried to reduce the magnitude of this sacrifice to a manageable and understandable level I can work with. For me it came down to this; God is His magnanimous generosity tried time after countless time to show and tell His chosen people of His love for them. But regardless of His words and actions they (we) refused to abide by the principles and instruction He provided. So God offered the most frightful sacrifice that could be imagined.
I have imagined, in modern terms, he said to them "What must I do to convince you of my eternal love for you my people? What must I do to show what you my very own creation means to me? You do not understand or you would not live life in a way I have warned you against. You would not continue with actions and lifestyles in direct contradiction to the plan I have for you. How can I convince you of my love and cleanse you of your great sins against me? What sacrifice can I make to make you believe? Do you love your children? Would you guard them against all harm or would you be willing to sacrifice your child's life in atonement for the crimes of another? Let me then create for that sacrifice my one and only child; a child perfect in all ways with no sin in him. What if I then let his perfect life be sacrificed so that you and all believers may spend eternity with me? Would that convince you of my love?"
People of all types and all generations in all places understand the love of a parent for a child. Offering the sacrifice of one's child is then an action that can be understood by all people in all places forever, assuring the meaning would never be lost. "I love you this much" is what God told us then, now, and forever. Looking at the Easter miracle in this way gives me a better grasp of it's reality though I still am in awe.
My favorite Bible scripture is Luke 23:39-43. While I certainly do not believe one should wait until the last moment to be saved, as we never know when that last moment will be, it shows that no matter how hopeless our situation may be, it is never too late to ask God's forgiveness.
All the rapists and serial killers on death row seem to like that one also.
Travis
God can't be fooled by last-minute, just in case, "conversions." A genuine one is just as good as a lifelong commitment as illustrated by Matthew 20 1-16, whether we like it or not.
My favorite Bible scripture is Luke 23:39-43. While I certainly do not believe one should wait until the last moment to be saved, as we never know when that last moment will be, it shows that no matter how hopeless our situation may be, it is never too late to ask God's forgiveness.
All the rapists and serial killers on death row seem to like that one also.
Travis
God can't be fooled by last-minute, just in case, "conversions." A genuine one is just as good as a lifelong commitment as illustrated by Matthew 20 1-16, whether we like it or not.
You don't have to convince me of anything. I'm just pointing out that rapists and murders get to go to heaven.
that quick & easy stuff seems like it was lifted from something john calvin might have said, that is:TULIP.
anyone interested will go to the extra effort to look it up on the internet. it's all there for discussion.
the first black tulip was identified or recognized not many years ago. but now they're common.
TULIP is the core of Calvinism, although all Calvinist don't adhere to all five points. The "P", preservation of the saints, is very Baptist, as in once saved always saved vs. the Arminian position of falling from grace. It is an interesting study. Both sides have their scriptural support, at least their interpretation of scripture. I'm not a Calvinist, BTW. But it was a Presbyterian friend who showed me the "package of figs". I've found it useful, shared it here for that reason. Not sure where he got it, not sure it matters.
My favorite Bible scripture is Luke 23:39-43. While I certainly do not believe one should wait until the last moment to be saved, as we never know when that last moment will be, it shows that no matter how hopeless our situation may be, it is never too late to ask God's forgiveness.
All the rapists and serial killers on death row seem to like that one also.
Travis
God can't be fooled by last-minute, just in case, "conversions." A genuine one is just as good as a lifelong commitment as illustrated by Matthew 20 1-16, whether we like it or not.
You don't have to convince me of anything. I'm just pointing out that rapists and murders get to go to heaven.
Travis
Not all. Only those who will humble themselves and surrender their lives to Him. He is Risen, indeed!
Can anyone one tell me how many denominations there was before the reformation and how many there is now.
There were no denominations there were three entities that each claimed to be the only true Church... anabaptists, Roman Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox.
The physical resurrection most of us celebrate today is a place where they all agree as per the Apostles Creed.
My favorite Bible scripture is Luke 23:39-43. While I certainly do not believe one should wait until the last moment to be saved, as we never know when that last moment will be, it shows that no matter how hopeless our situation may be, it is never too late to ask God's forgiveness.
All the rapists and serial killers on death row seem to like that one also.
Travis
God can't be fooled by last-minute, just in case, "conversions." A genuine one is just as good as a lifelong commitment as illustrated by Matthew 20 1-16, whether we like it or not.
You don't have to convince me of anything. I'm just pointing out that rapists and murders get to go to heaven.
Travis
So do liars, adulterers and even sheep fuggers. Happy now? Seriously, are your sins signs of less imperfection? Youre beginning to sound like a cchhristian.
The thief on the cross accepted Jesus as Savior, and at that moment knew he had been and unrepentant sinner.
This is one of the most misunderstood stories in the Bible.
What's misunderstood about it?
Dave
Most Christians believe in the millennium where Satan is bound for 1000 years; resurrection; and judgement. When Christ told the thief that He would see him in paradise, that doesn’t mean the thief is forgiven all his sins because he recognized Christ as the savior of the world, and they would meet in Heaven.
Before you reach your final reward, there are things that must happen first, namely the millennium, judgement and resurrection. At death you can’t possibly go to Heaven immediately, as there are necessary events that must happen first. So where is it that the thief and all other human beings go, that have died previous to those events?
There is a place of existence of these souls that could be considered paradise as they all must go somewhere until the fulfillment of the preparatory work. If this wasn’t true, why would it be discussed in First Peter as Christ teaches us that people will be schooled of necessary doctrine in this state of existence?
Most Christians believe in the millennium where Satan is bound for 1000 years; resurrection; and judgement. When Christ told the thief that He would see him in paradise, that doesn’t mean the thief is forgiven all his sins because he recognized Christ as the savior of the world, and they would meet in Heaven.
Before you reach your final reward, there are things that must happen first, namely the millennium, judgement and resurrection. At death you can’t possibly go to Heaven immediately, as there are necessary events that must happen first. So where is it that the thief and all other human beings go, that have died previous to those events?
There is a place of existence of these souls that could be considered paradise as they all must go somewhere until the fulfillment of the preparatory work. If this wasn’t true, why would it be discussed in First Peter as Christ teaches us that people will be schooled of necessary doctrine in this state of existence?
And, it reads on, "but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"...
"Grading on the curve" means we, ourselves, bring nothing to the party, just our dirty laundry. Our "merit" doesn't count,; we have none. Our society is moving away from absolutes into relativism. That's but a smoke screen, a scheme of the enemy to blind and deceive.
I went to church with Mom and Wifey yesterday, I looked at all the sad crying faces and the respectful emotion across the massive crowd, I then realized there's no hope for me, I don't know how to fall on my knees and 'worship' anything, and wouldn't beg for my own life, my head just wont go there.
I went to church with Mom and Wifey yesterday, I looked at all the sad crying faces and the respectful emotion across the massive crowd, I then realized there's no hope for me, I don't know how to fall on my knees and 'worship' anything, and wouldn't beg for my own life, my head just wont go there.
How does a man fall, beg and worship anything?
Lovely service nonetheless.
Some day you will find out if this is all a waste of time. Planning now would be better than waiting and then find out you are wrong.
I went to church with Mom and Wifey yesterday, I looked at all the sad crying faces and the respectful emotion across the massive crowd, I then realized there's no hope for me, I don't know how to fall on my knees and 'worship' anything, and wouldn't beg for my own life, my head just wont go there.
How does a man fall, beg and worship anything?
Lovely service nonetheless.
You are one step ahead of me...my heathen cousin even went yesterday, wore a suit and tie.
I dont own a suit, for even a tie, and cant think of a reason to set foot in a church...
I went to church with Mom and Wifey yesterday, I looked at all the sad crying faces and the respectful emotion across the massive crowd, I then realized there's no hope for me, I don't know how to fall on my knees and 'worship' anything, and wouldn't beg for my own life, my head just wont go there.
How does a man fall, beg and worship anything?
Lovely service nonetheless.
Some day you will find out if this is all a waste of time. Planning now would be better than waiting and then find out you are wrong.
How can I pretend to do something I don't understand, I do believe being a hypocrite is worse.
I don't have the ability to worship anything, have never begged a woman or anything else for anything, simply don't get it.
I went to church with Mom and Wifey yesterday, I looked at all the sad crying faces and the respectful emotion across the massive crowd, I then realized there's no hope for me, I don't know how to fall on my knees and 'worship' anything, and wouldn't beg for my own life, my head just wont go there.
How does a man fall, beg and worship anything?
Lovely service nonetheless.
You are one step ahead of me...my heathen cousin even went yesterday, wore a suit and tie.
I dont own a suit, for even a tie, and cant think of a reason to set foot in a church...
I went to church with Mom and Wifey yesterday, I looked at all the sad crying faces and the respectful emotion across the massive crowd, I then realized there's no hope for me, I don't know how to fall on my knees and 'worship' anything, and wouldn't beg for my own life, my head just wont go there.
How does a man fall, beg and worship anything?
Lovely service nonetheless.
You are one step ahead of me...my heathen cousin even went yesterday, wore a suit and tie.
I dont own a suit, for even a tie, and cant think of a reason to set foot in a church...
I went to church with Mom and Wifey yesterday, I looked at all the sad crying faces and the respectful emotion across the massive crowd, I then realized there's no hope for me, I don't know how to fall on my knees and 'worship' anything, and wouldn't beg for my own life, my head just wont go there.
How does a man fall, beg and worship anything?
Lovely service nonetheless.
You are one step ahead of me...my heathen cousin even went yesterday, wore a suit and tie.
I dont own a suit, for even a tie, and cant think of a reason to set foot in a church...
You would be like me, remember the little mouse flying the double bird flip off to the approaching hawk? someone gets the drop on me, they'll be looking at the same thing as I die, I aint gonna beg!
I went to church with Mom and Wifey yesterday, I looked at all the sad crying faces and the respectful emotion across the massive crowd, I then realized there's no hope for me, I don't know how to fall on my knees and 'worship' anything, and wouldn't beg for my own life, my head just wont go there.
How does a man fall, beg and worship anything?
Lovely service nonetheless.
You are one step ahead of me...my heathen cousin even went yesterday, wore a suit and tie.
I dont own a suit, for even a tie, and cant think of a reason to set foot in a church...
I went as an offer of appeasement.
So did my cousin...
I am not as receptive to that idea....
My hypocrisy has well-defined boundaries.
LOL, I can respect that, but what's a hick like me to do when mom and wifey both ask me to go?
HNR, is worship not obsession? and is that not wrong according to the good book?
You can find a scripture to support almost any type of action, but that isn't the point. No one here is appointed to judge you, you will do that yourself.
I see, so we are commanded to follow, without question, books written by man and not God, with, possibly a lot of hidden agendas inside?
OTOH, I have been told repeatedly by Christians that I'm wrong, with no explanation on how to get right, is that leading a Christian lifestyle? I think not.
You'll be with me and Poobs down at Fire Lake riding that chrome three wheeler, and taking those "Long Shot Gambles". Welcome.
HNR, did just shock the hell out of me, I never knew God or Jesus didn't write the Bible, have heard preachers say, God said........Jesus said............... when if fact it was, Man Said, for 50 damn years.
You guys are overthinking this. Don't confuse organized religion with God's love for you. Think on these things: 1. Jesus was born and became human on earth. 2. He walked the earth like every other human. 3. He was crucified for crimes he didn't commit and he died. 4. He was raised from the dead and lives in us through the Holy Spirit.
He loves all of us and wants to be a part of our lives.
That's a lot to bite off and chew and it requires faith. Not easy for some but it can be done.
I see, so we are commanded to follow, without question, books written by man and not God, with, possibly a lot of hidden agendas inside?
OTOH, I have been told repeatedly by Christians that I'm wrong, with no explanation on how to get right, is that leading a Christian lifestyle? I think not.
Christians can have a less than Christian attitude about things because of their lack of understanding of reading the Bible and not paying attention to the spirit of the message. Actually the Bible, especially the New Testament is full of hope and forgiveness, something that many Christians don't seem to grasp as they become judgemental about people like you that don't want to be told what to do. I am with you on the aspect of not wanting to be told what to do, but I do leave room in my life for God and Christ to help me be a better person than I would be without them.
Yeah, being a better person is what it's all about, right?
Not.
Sorry, fellers, a personal relationship with the creator of the universe who loves us is what it's all about. I know this is probably a waste of time and typing. But I will pray for you and all the other lost, whether you want me to or not. May God bless you so that you may someday find real truth by finding God through His son Jesus.
Our priest told us that the Roman Catholic Church was the only one that hasn’t changed doctrine in the last 2000 years.
That is exactly what I’d expect a Roman Catholic priest to say; it is consistent with their understanding of themselves.
Perhaps, however, change has been necessary at some point?
Nope. Truth (capital T) is Truth. If you go all relativistic you end up in a quagmire of uncertainty. What you do with Truth is another matter.
I completely agree that Truth is Truth and that compromising it can lead to relativism. I just don’t believe that a human institution’s traditions in the form of Roman Catholic doctrine equal big-T Truth because of the same epistemological issues we discussed in the previous thread.
The God who has revealed Himself in Scripture is the objective and while the depth of our understanding of Him may change over time He, not the Church, is the big-T Truth.
I see, so we are commanded to follow, without question, books written by man and not God, with, possibly a lot of hidden agendas inside?
OTOH, I have been told repeatedly by Christians that I'm wrong, with no explanation on how to get right, is that leading a Christian lifestyle? I think not.
Christians can have a less than Christian attitude about things because of their lack of understanding of reading the Bible and not paying attention to the spirit of the message. Actually the Bible, especially the New Testament is full of hope and forgiveness, something that many Christians don't seem to grasp as they become judgemental about people like you that don't want to be told what to do. I am with you on the aspect of not wanting to be told what to do, but I do leave room in my life for God and Christ to help me be a better person than I would be without them.
Thanks for the kind words and explanations Sig and HNR.
There is a force behind creation....... or there is not. It is one way or the other..... no middle ground If you can get your head around the idea of a creation without a creator, you are truly one of the “ elites “. But don’t ever look up on a cold clear night when you are all alone........ you may become unconvinced.
Now...... If there is a Creator, he either cares for His creatures, or He does not....... no middle ground.
Now....... if He does care for His creatures, would He want them to know it? Maybe, or maybe not.
You could ask people, or read books about it. But would you really know? For certain?
If there really is a self existent Being Who stands outside of time and space, is anything more important than making contact with It?
Why not direct thoughts toward It? Why not ask It to open your mind to receiving Its thoughts?
A Being capable of “ making all that has been made” surely has the capacity to communicate with His creatures IF HE WANTS TO. At this point we are trying to find that out..... we still don’t know.
( Right about here is where a Bible thumper will blast in warning about finding the wrong spirit, and testing the spirits etc...... pay them no mind. You weren’t created by a Committee, so no one can recieve your thoughts except the One who Created you... if he exists)
Atheists and bible thumpers have one thing in common...... they discount our emotions as something that can’t be trusted. But emotion is the most common trait of mankind. If Our Creator wanted to treat us all the same, he wouldn’t use our intellect to communicate with us because we vary too much in that respect. When a bushman loves or hates, he is feeling exactly the same feeling as a Wall Street Billionaire who is experiencing love or hate.Is Love not real...... just because you can’t quantify it?
Now.... you can expect God to answer ( if he exists). Oddly enough, some men get their answer in a flood of emotion, A PEACE THAT PASSES ALL UNDERSTANDING is one way it is described, and the next man may experience a gradual change in his thought life that culminates in that same Peace.
There’s no wrong way to find God. But....... if you are not sure you’ve found him..... you haven’t.
I have to disagree with your game of false dichotomies.
Originally Posted by curdog4570
Logic can lead you to faith. Consider this : No. Logic does not lead one to beliefs not based in evidence.
There is a force behind creation....... or there is not. It is one way or the other..... no middle ground What do you mean by "A Force"? As in "The Force", or an unstable nothingness. A confluence of events and circumstances is not necessarily a force, nor necessarily an intelligent force.
If you can get your head around the idea of a creation without a creator, you are truly one of the “ elites “. No. It does not make you "Elite', just a skeptc.
But don’t ever look up on a cold clear night when you are all alone........ you may become unconvinced. No, we understand how stars and galaxies form.
Now...... If there is a Creator, he either cares for His creatures, or He does not....... no middle ground. Another false dichotomy, The force may not be intelligent, or it could just be apathetic.
Now....... if He does care for His creatures, would He want them to know it? Maybe, or maybe not. Or just not care.
You could ask people, or read books about it. But would you really know? For certain? Not knowing for certain does not make all possibilities equally likely
If there really is a self existent Being Who stands outside of time and space, is anything more important than making contact with It? Yes, my kids homework.
Why not direct thoughts toward It? Why not ask It to open your mind to receiving Its thoughts? Because there's not good evidence for it's existence.
A Being capable of “ making all that has been made” surely has the capacity to communicate with His creatures IF HE WANTS TO. At this point we are trying to find that out..... we still don’t know. This is an counter argument to all you've proposed above. At a minimum this is not a priority for it, because it hasn't done so
( Right about here is where a Bible thumper will blast in warning about finding the wrong spirit, and testing the spirits etc...... pay them no mind. You weren’t created by a Committee, so no one can recieve your thoughts except the One who Created you... if he exists) How do you claim to know it wan't a committee? How many people does it take to operate the LHC, which hypothetically could be black holes containing pocket universes? This would be a committee of thousands creating millions of universes, and never being the wiser. How many Polytheistic religions with different Gods messing with each other, and all of creation?
Atheists and bible thumpers have one thing in common...... they discount our emotions as something that can’t be trusted. So just follow our emotion? It you applied that to the making of public policy, how well do you think that would work out?
But emotion is the most common trait of mankind. Actually psychopaths lack many basic human emotions, especially empathy.
If Our Creator presuming one exists, for which there is not evidencewanted to treat us all the same, he wouldn’t use our intellect to communicate with us because we vary too much in that respect. When a bushman loves or hates, he is feeling exactly the same feeling as a Wall Street Billionaire who is experiencing love or hate.Is Love not real...... just because you can’t quantify it? Actually, all 7 billion humans do not experience these emotions in exactly the same way. Our relative perceptions will vary according to our differences in disgust sensitivity, agreeableness, openness, and neuroticism
Now.... you can expect God to answer ( if he exists). Oddly enough, some men get their answer in a flood of emotion, A PEACE THAT PASSES ALL UNDERSTANDING is one way it is described, and the next man may experience a gradual change in his thought life that culminates in that same Peace.
There’s no wrong way to find God. But....... if you are not sure you’ve found him..... you haven’t.
Gene, the short version of your argument is, "I've had an uplifting emotional experience, therefore God". Why not just call it an uplifting emotional experience?
... they discount our emotions as something that can’t be trusted. But emotion is the most common trait of mankind..
Emotions can and do trigger all kinds of irrational actions in people that often enough lead to foolishness, destructiveness and/or disaster. its indicative of an unstable weak undisciplined mind. Scripture even tells you its better not to have such a weak vulnerable mind...
2 Timothy 1:7 King James Version (KJV)
" For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."
There are great rational reasons to believe that there is an uncaused first cause. The idea that this multiverse could come together by chance takes an awful lot of faith.
That having been said I know people way smarter than me who can’t or won’t believe. It isn’t a matter of intelligence. I also know people who are deeply moral who can’t or won’t believe.
I believe that the Scriptures are correct; God reveals to people their nature and their need for Him; it isn’t a matter of intellect or perception/interpretation of facts.
Therefore I don’t get frustrated over friends’ lack of faith, and I have friends I love who are on both sides (and in the agnostic middle) of the faith question...
... they discount our emotions as something that can’t be trusted. But emotion is the most common trait of mankind..
Emotions can and do trigger all kinds of irrational actions in people that often enough lead to foolishness and/or disaster. its indicative of an unstable weak undisciplined mind... Scripture even tells you its better not to have such a weak vulnerable mind.
2 Timothy 1:7 King James Version (KJV)
" For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."
Seems to me there is a balance to attain; Curdog’s view is off kilter in one direction. I for one don’t believe that either the rational mind nor the fickle emotions are to be fully trusted, hence the necessity of Scripture which God has used to reveal Himself and some great insights about us,
Jeremiah 17:9
“ The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”
Listening to ones heart can get you into an awful lot of trouble if not balanced with input from rational object revelation from God such as that found in Scripture.
There is a force behind creation....... or there is not. It is one way or the other..... no middle ground If you can get your head around the idea of a creation without a creator, you are truly one of the “ elites “. But don’t ever look up on a cold clear night when you are all alone........ you may become unconvinced.
Now...... If there is a Creator, he either cares for His creatures, or He does not....... no middle ground.
Now....... if He does care for His creatures, would He want them to know it? Maybe, or maybe not.
You could ask people, or read books about it. But would you really know? For certain?
If there really is a self existent Being Who stands outside of time and space, is anything more important than making contact with It?
Why not direct thoughts toward It? Why not ask It to open your mind to receiving Its thoughts?
A Being capable of “ making all that has been made” surely has the capacity to communicate with His creatures IF HE WANTS TO. At this point we are trying to find that out..... we still don’t know.
( Right about here is where a Bible thumper will blast in warning about finding the wrong spirit, and testing the spirits etc...... pay them no mind. You weren’t created by a Committee, so no one can recieve your thoughts except the One who Created you... if he exists)
Atheists and bible thumpers have one thing in common...... they discount our emotions as something that can’t be trusted. But emotion is the most common trait of mankind. If Our Creator wanted to treat us all the same, he wouldn’t use our intellect to communicate with us because we vary too much in that respect. When a bushman loves or hates, he is feeling exactly the same feeling as a Wall Street Billionaire who is experiencing love or hate.Is Love not real...... just because you can’t quantify it?
Now.... you can expect God to answer ( if he exists). Oddly enough, some men get their answer in a flood of emotion, A PEACE THAT PASSES ALL UNDERSTANDING is one way it is described, and the next man may experience a gradual change in his thought life that culminates in that same Peace.
There’s no wrong way to find God. But....... if you are not sure you’ve found him..... you haven’t.
Well said and Amen. Great words from great thought and all that from a (sharp) old fart.
... they discount our emotions as something that can’t be trusted. But emotion is the most common trait of mankind..
Emotions can and do trigger all kinds of irrational actions in people that often enough lead to foolishness, destructiveness and/or disaster. its indicative of an unstable weak undisciplined mind. Scripture even tells you its better not to have such a weak vulnerable mind...
2 Timothy 1:7 King James Version (KJV)
" For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."
And who gives the spirit of hate, fault finding and derision?
Our priest told us that the Roman Catholic Church was the only one that hasn’t changed doctrine in the last 2000 years.
That is exactly what I’d expect a Roman Catholic priest to say; it is consistent with their understanding of themselves.
Perhaps, however, change has been necessary at some point?
Nope. Truth (capital T) is Truth. If you go all relativistic you end up in a quagmire of uncertainty. What you do with Truth is another matter.
I completely agree that Truth is Truth and that compromising it can lead to relativism. I just don’t believe that a human institution’s traditions in the form of Roman Catholic doctrine equal big-T Truth because of the same epistemological issues we discussed in the previous thread.
The God who has revealed Himself in Scripture is the objective and while the depth of our understanding of Him may change over time He, not the Church, is the big-T Truth.
This^^^ and thanks. Very well said and very true.
Men are sinners and liars. Those truths are evident in the teachings of the Church, and as such, are proof Church doctrine is tained by fallen and self serving men.
“ The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” .
Gives us a caution to take care lest we deceive ourselves in supposing we trust in God when really we do not.
that there is greater wickedness in our hearts, by nature, than we ourselves are aware of, (common mistake among mankind to think their own hearts are a great deal better than they really are.)
Our hearts being very apt to deceive us, by mere fact that our hopes and fears rise or fall, according to causes that to us appear either favorable or adverse.
Originally Posted by jaguartx
And who gives the spirit of hate, fault finding and derision?
God tells us to hate certain things and to identify and call out faults within members of the church.
[Actually the Bible, especially the New Testament is full of hope and forgiveness...
I think they figured out selling a sequel full of more fire and brimstone was gonna be a tough sell.
It worked for Terminator 2 & 3
They had killer robots. My memory may be spotty, but I don’t recall Biblical killer robots!
Maybe no killer robots, but it does have Zombies:
27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
There is a force behind creation....... or there is not. It is one way or the other..... no middle ground If you can get your head around the idea of a creation without a creator, you are truly one of the “ elites “. But don’t ever look up on a cold clear night when you are all alone........ you may become unconvinced.
Now...... If there is a Creator, he either cares for His creatures, or He does not....... no middle ground.
Now....... if He does care for His creatures, would He want them to know it? Maybe, or maybe not.
You could ask people, or read books about it. But would you really know? For certain?
If there really is a self existent Being Who stands outside of time and space, is anything more important than making contact with It?
Why not direct thoughts toward It? Why not ask It to open your mind to receiving Its thoughts?
A Being capable of “ making all that has been made” surely has the capacity to communicate with His creatures IF HE WANTS TO. At this point we are trying to find that out..... we still don’t know.
( Right about here is where a Bible thumper will blast in warning about finding the wrong spirit, and testing the spirits etc...... pay them no mind. You weren’t created by a Committee, so no one can recieve your thoughts except the One who Created you... if he exists)
Atheists and bible thumpers have one thing in common...... they discount our emotions as something that can’t be trusted. But emotion is the most common trait of mankind. If Our Creator wanted to treat us all the same, he wouldn’t use our intellect to communicate with us because we vary too much in that respect. When a bushman loves or hates, he is feeling exactly the same feeling as a Wall Street Billionaire who is experiencing love or hate.Is Love not real...... just because you can’t quantify it?
Now.... you can expect God to answer ( if he exists). Oddly enough, some men get their answer in a flood of emotion, A PEACE THAT PASSES ALL UNDERSTANDING is one way it is described, and the next man may experience a gradual change in his thought life that culminates in that same Peace.
There’s no wrong way to find God. But....... if you are not sure you’ve found him..... you haven’t.
Pgs 103 & 104 of the 12/12 on step 11 have great insights into the dangers of over reliance upon one’s “spiritual experience”.
Very interesting reading, to a point. Personally I no longer believe in God, no longer believe in Jesus' resurrection, no longer believe in the Holy Spirit. Rather I accept the reality of all three individually and jointly as the Holy Trinity. My personal logic being that belief no matter how fervently proclaimed does not affect absolute fact. My spiritual walk in times both with and without acknowledging God's absolute dominion over everything that exists has led me to accept Him as the creator of all that is. Nonetheless I'm not here to demand anyone accept this reality in the same manner or even at all.
Some of you may recall a t-shirt print from days gone by that says "Question Authority ". That is a great suggestion, even mandate. I'll paraphrase it to read "Question The Reality of God". At the same time be prepared to accept the answer if it differs from your presupposition. Most of you posting here seem to be creative thinkers. So here's my challenge to you. Creatively challenge the Holy Spirit to speak to your spirit in a voice you can hear with words you can understand. I don't even use "Holy" in addressing him. I just call him Spirit. You see my walk has brought me to the conclusion Spirit is the conduit to both the love of Jesus and the wisdom and power of God. Open yourself to the potential existence of a power beyond our ability to accurately measure.
Speak to Spirit as you would anyone literally walking beside you. He's multilingual. Even Southern English. Sincerely ask him, if he exists, to show evidence of himself. Continue as if He is real even if you're convinced He isn't. Carry it to the extreme. Out there in the middle of the Accidental Universe He's waiting for the opportunity. Dare him. Impose upon him. Maybe even ask politely. But be persistent. About my spiritual walk, it's been anything but mundane. I've had times of doubt, times of anger paired with total belief, times of absolute fatigue. Times where I've said if this is all there is just take me now. But no matter the extremes of my mental state God has never left me. He's real. If you look for Him earnestly He will be found. End of challenge. Have a good evening.
... they discount our emotions as something that can’t be trusted. But emotion is the most common trait of mankind..
Emotions can and do trigger all kinds of irrational actions in people that often enough lead to foolishness and/or disaster. its indicative of an unstable weak undisciplined mind... Scripture even tells you its better not to have such a weak vulnerable mind.
2 Timothy 1:7 King James Version (KJV)
" For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."
Seems to me there is a balance to attain; Curdog’s view is off kilter in one direction. I for one don’t believe that either the rational mind nor the fickle emotions are to be fully trusted, hence the necessity of Scripture which God has used to reveal Himself and some great insights about us,
Jeremiah 17:9
“ The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”
Listening to ones heart can get you into an awful lot of trouble if not balanced with input from rational object revelation from God such as that found in Scripture.
So.... A “rational and object revelation” which occurred centuries ago by someone else is superior to thought processes you experienced yourself yesterday?
I just call him Spirit. You see my walk has brought me to the conclusion Spirit is the conduit to both the love of Jesus and the wisdom and power of God. Open yourself to the potential existence of a power beyond our ability to accurately measure.
1 Corinthians 1:24b "Jesus Christ is the Wisdom of God and the Power of God."
So.... A “rational and object revelation” which occurred centuries ago by someone else is superior to thought processes you experienced yourself yesterday?
Whatever works for you is fine with me.
But what is proven to work for me is wrong.
I think I get it.
The One who offers the revelation is big enough to transcend time, space, and eternity, no? If He can order history in such a way as to bring about His will to reestablish communion with a people through Christ He can maintain a revelation worth subjecting oneself to.
Actually what I was suggesting is a balance between the two. I’ve had experiences that proved true; I’ve been deluded into thinking that my “experience” was true also, and found that in light of what I know to be true about God that it was false. That is the point Bill makes in the passages cited from the 12/12 if you’re familiar. There is a balance; emotion unencumbered by a rational foundation is dangerous as is the opposite condition. God gave us both for a reason and He didn’t speak to us so we could pick and choose cafeteria style what is truth to us.
It’s interesting how you make claims of your own throughout this thread that I could say “invalidate my experience” (“if you want religion look to Paul”) as well as that of a whole group of believers but you don’t hear me point that out. You have a tendency to make assertions which suggest a position and then get your feelers hurt when others do the same. You’re not nearly so open minded as you fashion yourself. And that’s ok; a man who is too open minded runs the risk of having his brains fall out.
Then you know that many of those spiritual experiences are very real, don’t you.
I’m real glad the author of the book you mentioned had a very profound one.
Aren’t you?
Absolutely!!! I’m glad too that he understood the significance of that experience as guided by Christian revelation in the movement that helped get him there.
I just call him Spirit. You see my walk has brought me to the conclusion Spirit is the conduit to both the love of Jesus and the wisdom and power of God. Open yourself to the potential existence of a power beyond our ability to accurately measure.
1 Corinthians 1:24b "Jesus Christ is the Wisdom of God and the Power of God."
Knew I'd read that somewhere :>) . Paul, is that you?
Seems a lot of the problem/confusion is trying to do Spiritual stuff thru the temporal mind. It won't work.
Here's the AMP version of 1 Cor. 2:14. But the natural (unbelieving) man does not accept the things (the teachings and revelations) of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness (absurd and illogical) to him; and he is incapable of understanding them, because they are spiritually discerned and appreciated, (and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters)...
So.... A “rational and object revelation” which occurred centuries ago by someone else is superior to thought processes you experienced yourself yesterday?
Whatever works for you is fine with me.
But what is proven to work for me is wrong.
I think I get it.
The One who offers the revelation is big enough to transcend time, space, and eternity, no? If He can order history in such a way as to bring about His will to reestablish communion with a people through Christ He can maintain a revelation worth subjecting oneself to.
Actually what I was suggesting is a balance between the two. I’ve had experiences that proved true; I’ve been deluded into thinking that my “experience” was true also, and found that in light of what I know to be true about God that it was false. That is the point Bill makes in the passages cited from the 12/12 if you’re familiar. There is a balance; emotion unencumbered by a rational foundation is dangerous as is the opposite condition. God gave us both for a reason and He didn’t speak to us so we could pick and choose cafeteria style what is truth to us.
It’s interesting how you make claims of your own throughout this thread that I could say “invalidate my experience” (“if you want religion look to Paul”) as well as that of a whole group of believers but you don’t hear me point that out. You have a tendency to make assertions which suggest a position and then get your feelers hurt when others do the same. You’re not nearly so open minded as you fashion yourself. And that’s ok; a man who is too open minded runs the risk of having his brains fall out.
We were created, not cloned. The same God can have a different relationship with his varied creatures. One sort is not necessarily superior to another. It’s obvious that each man’s understanding of God will vary somewhat from the next. Many of you claim to “ lean on Scripture “ but you disagree on its interpretation and ignore the fact that the decision as to what is “ God breathed” was made by mortal men centuries after it was written.
Did Jesus restrict the Spirit of Truth to the written word?
We were created, not cloned. The same God can have a different relationship with his varied creatures. One sort is not necessarily superior to another. It’s obvious that each man’s understanding of God will vary somewhat from the next. Many of you claim to “ lean on Scripture “ but you disagree on its interpretation and ignore the fact that the decision as to what is “ God breathed” was made by mortal men centuries after it was written.
Did Jesus restrict the Spirit of Truth to the written word?
If one sort is not necessarily superior to another why are you down on those who believe Paul’s writings to be canonical? It’s ok you can say it... you really don’t believe that the experience of others are equally valid to your own. That’s fair.
I don’t know; did Jesus restrict the Holy Spirit to the written word? If you were to answer that, from whence shall you look for the answer, and if I disagree with the validity of that source, does that make it wrong? Please answer this conundrum.
Again, you’re trying to create a straw man and demolish it. I’m not a rationalist nor am I a sentimentalist in the tradition of Schleiermacher as you are. I’m in the middle; in God’s word I see instances of His interactions with His people and in the vast majority of instances He uses His written revelation to interpret & confirm the experiences. That’s true in the New & Old testaments. Even Christ recited verses to Satan when tempted in the wilderness. Christ.... who IS very God of very God... He recited Scripture to ward off temptation.
The Truth of God’s W/word (that is, Christ Himself) is attested to in both writing and internal experience and one cannot trump the other.
There were no denominations there were three entities that each claimed to be the only true Church... anabaptists, Roman Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox.
There is some evidence that the Anabaptists developed in Zurich after 1523. Conrad Grebel and Felix Mantz were the early 'leaders' of the movement.
I just call him Spirit. You see my walk has brought me to the conclusion Spirit is the conduit to both the love of Jesus and the wisdom and power of God. Open yourself to the potential existence of a power beyond our ability to accurately measure.
1 Corinthians 1:24b "Jesus Christ is the Wisdom of God and the Power of God."
Knew I'd read that somewhere :>) . Paul, is that you?
Yeah. It's Paul. Trying to educate those who hadn't read the first chapter of John's Gospel yet.
And here is the short version of all the responses you’ve made on threads like this one:
That’s never happened to me , so, it couldn’t have happened to anyone else.
Gene, I didn't say you did not experience what you described. I just don't see how you can jump from "peaceful experience" to "God, creator of the Universe".
A “ God Moment” is what starts a process of discovery. A man’s investigation into what happened to him in that moment may lead to different paths for individuals who experienced basically the same thing. Some Christians describe the investigation as “ sanctification”. They may be right. I don’t know.
One thing for sure..... once you experience this Force, you want to maintain that contact.
A “ God Moment” is what starts a process of discovery. A man’s investigation into what happened to him in that moment may lead to different paths for individuals who experienced basically the same thing. Some Christians describe the investigation as “ sanctification”. They may be right. I don’t know.
One thing for sure..... once you experience this Force, you want to maintain that contact.
Well, I’m late to the party but have a comment. It is my observation that God treats us as individuals. We are not all,the same and have different personalities, capabilities, preferences and the like. God, our Creator, knows this. He also asks us to play different roles in the Body and have different ministries. So, one would not expect us to all have the same reaction nor the same emotional experience when we encounter God. Each of us is different.
I have an engineering background and when I was first exposed to the “born again” concept, I was intrigued but I wanted to know how this whole “ being saved” thing operated. I read and studied, investigated etc. A classic late adopter if you will. Took a long time for me to figure out the logic behind the death on the cross, blood sacrifice for sin and all that. The more I studied the more sense it made and then the more talking to God I did, the more clear it all became . I then realized that yes, Jesus is real and the Spirit had led me to salvation.
Now, here’s a point. I once shared this looong road to salvation to some very dear Christian friends who were aghast at it. They both told how they came under sudden Holy Spirit conviction, walked the aisle and were gloriously saved and how it was an event filled with great joy and great emotion. They did not have “understand” how all the logic worked. I was a bit jealous, but can only confess,that that was not my experience,yet my experience and their experiences seem to be indeed valid, but very different.
Btw, one of the issues I had was this idea of “worship.” “Worship” is just a word and it holds different meanings for all of us. My idea of the word was kinda like a bunch ignorant natives worshipping some false pseudo god figure.
BUT, when my concept of worship became honoring, appreciating, thankfulness, awe, wonder and an upwelling of love, THEN I began to understand worship.
One thing for sure..... once you experience this Force, you want to maintain that contact.
why do you 'want' when you are told not to want?...why so oblivious to such a rudimentary concept of Christianity?
Psalm 23 "The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want.."
Originally Posted by TF49
... I once shared this looong road to salvation to some very dear Christian friends who were aghast at it. They both told how they came under sudden Holy Spirit conviction, walked the aisle and were gloriously saved ... an event filled with great joy and great emotion..
I wouldn't trust the emotional evil deceptive heart perceptions of God unworthy sinners , the Book of life is yet to be opened revealing who is listed [saved] before the Judgement seat of Christ....no sinner living or dead knows what TRUTH Jesus is going to say-contest about them before the Father..... yet there is no shortage of self-deluding christians who are full of themselves.
Matthew 22:14 (KJV)
" For many are called, but few are chosen."
Who can really say who has sincerely responded to the call and received Christ in faith? the Father selected such chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world. Only these very select few will constitute the company of the redeemed when Christ returns.
One thing for sure..... once you experience this Force, you want to maintain that contact.
why do you 'want' when you are told not to want?...why so oblivious to such a rudimentary concept of Christianity?
Psalm 23 "The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want.."
Originally Posted by TF49
... I once shared this looong road to salvation to some very dear Christian friends who were aghast at it. They both told how they came under sudden Holy Spirit conviction, walked the aisle and were gloriously saved ... an event filled with great joy and great emotion..
I wouldn't trust the emotional evil deceptive heart perceptions of God unworthy sinners , the Book of life is yet to be opened revealing who is listed [saved] before the Judgement seat of Christ....no sinner living or dead knows what TRUTH Jesus is going to say-contest about them before the Father..... yet there is no shortage of self-deluding christians who are full of themselves.
Matthew 22:14 (KJV)
" For many are called, but few are chosen."
Who can really say who has sincerely responded to the call and received Christ in faith? the Father selected such chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world. Only these very select few will constitute the company of the redeemed when Christ returns.
So Starman, we are told to seek God, how do you reconcile,that with your reference to not to “want?” Will you answer or will you not?
Regarding the Book of Life; Does not Jesus not say that the sheep know the voice of the Shepherd? Does,the Shepherd not say that He will lose,none of His sheep?
If,one has heard the Master’s voice and has experienced the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit, he can be sure,his name is written in the Book of Life.
So Starman, we are told to seek God, how do you reconcile,that with your reference to not to “want?”
Yes, God wants you to seek-pursue Him, which is not the same as you or any other sinner 'wanting'
Quote
Regarding the Book of Life; Does not Jesus not say that the sheep know the voice of the Shepherd? Does,the Shepherd not say that He will lose,none of His sheep?
Thats on the condition you actually happen to be one of his sheep. as I said, I don't take the mere word of man and his corrupted evil seeded sick deceptive heart & mind.
Quote
If,one has heard the Master’s voice and has experienced the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit, he can be sure, his name is written in the Book of Life.
People convince themselves they have heard the Masters voice and that they dwell in the Holy Spirit. the veracity of such claims will be proven only at Judgement and by ones name actually appearing in the Book of Life.
you know not if your name appears in that Book and you know not what revealing TRUTH Jesus will contest before the Father concerning yourself or any other sinner.
You could turn out to be thrown on the pile of Tares and not with the harvested Wheat.
Seems a lot of the problem/confusion is trying to do Spiritual stuff thru the temporal mind. It won't work.
Here's the AMP version of 1 Cor. 2:14. But the natural (unbelieving) man does not accept the things (the teachings and revelations) of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness (absurd and illogical) to him; and he is incapable of understanding them, because they are spiritually discerned and appreciated, (and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters)...
Mind is not of the spirit, but the mind is still an important mechanism-tool to be used in a disciplined and strong manner As guided by the spirit.. and not to be ignored....KJV Scripture makes various mention of mans mind.
Romans 8:5-6 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
1 Chronicles 16:15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
1 Chronicles 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind:
Leviticus 24:12 And they put him in ward, that the mind of the Lord might be shewed them.
2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
1 Peter 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind:
1 Peter 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Jesus wasn't one caught up in rules - "This is My commandment, that you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and that you love your neighbor as yourself."
It's not complicated, and it's not hard - but it is foolishness to those of us whose pride and self-love will not allow us to submit our hearts, our beliefs, our faith,our failures to someone else. Someone who will meet us in our deepest, most secret place - and tells us that despite how wretched and twisted we really are, that He loves us anyway, and that He wants a relationship on that level with us, and that He will make it right.
Pretty much an almost inexpressible, unbelievable Wow to me. Very humbling, and awe inspiring - worthy of my praise and my worship. .
Jesus wasn't one caught up in rules - "This is My commandment, that you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and that you love your neighbor as yourself."
It's not complicated, and it's not hard - but it is foolishness to those of us whose pride and self-love will not allow us to submit our hearts, our beliefs, our faith,our failures to someone else. Someone who will meet us in our deepest, most secret place - and tells us that despite how wretched and twisted we really are, that He loves us anyway, and that He wants a relationship on that level with us, and that He will make it right.
Pretty much an almost inexpressible, unbelievable Wow to me. Very humbling, and awe inspiring - worthy of my praise and my worship. .
How is one that has never let ANYONE completely know them, not Wife, Mother or Friend supposed to confide in a belief that someone else is out there and can hear them?
He already knows you and knows everything about you, and he loves you despite that. All it takes is confession in that deepest part - acknowledgment of who we are, that we aren't "good", and that we need help, and asking Him to help us.
He already knows you and knows everything about you, and he loves you despite that. All it takes is confession in that deepest part - acknowledgment of who we are, that we aren't "good", and that we need help, and asking Him to help us.
BTW - why do so many people still insist on sticking with the old English Thee/thy/thou style of writing? WWJD?? I think everyday language has much more impact for most readers, especially ones that aren't familiar with the bible - or Monty Python......
Regardless, if I were going to run the bible, it'd be the Old Testament, it was of course first, and the best AFAIC, an eye for an eye, heck with the fluff.
Is this an all encompassing 100% all Christian faiths God bless you? From primitive baptist snake handlers to gold tablet types to the pope aka God's representative on earth. I need ta know cause being raised a Catholic I was always told i was a member of the one true faith. And basically all others got started up by snake oil salesmen.
Also the bless the horse thing? When did beast start having souls to be blessed?
This entire post outta start off another bible quote (whatever version) arms race.
Regardless, if I were going to run the bible, it'd be the Old Testament, it was of course first, and the best AFAIC, an eye for an eye, heck with the fluff.
The whole Bible is about God’s directing of history to reestablish relations with humanity. The Old Testament’s eye-for-an-eye teaches us that left to our own devices we’ll destroy ourselves and construct gods in our image if He doesn’t step in with decisively action.
The “fluff” in the New Testament is the story of that decisive action. It is when one sees himself in need of this decisive action that the “fluff” becomes glorious relief toward which one can do nothing but bow in gratitude.
When I got to the point where I was willing to consider this as being true for me, I was instructed to take a month or so and study and pray as if I believed even though I didn’t. If I found after that time that I still didn’t believe I’d know I’d eliminated this myth as just that. It didn’t take long for me to be come convinced I was in need. I’ve since heard this approach described as “sitting in the seat of faith”, that is, putting oneself in the physical place of a man of faith.
I prayed in ignorance. I read with as open a mind as I could have as a man in doubt.
Regardless, if I were going to run the bible, it'd be the Old Testament, it was of course first, and the best AFAIC, an eye for an eye, heck with the fluff.
The whole Bible is about God’s directing of history to reestablish relations with humanity. The Old Testament’s eye-for-an-eye teaches us that left to our own devices we’ll destroy ourselves and construct gods in our image if He doesn’t step in with decisively action.
The “fluff” in the New Testament is the story of that decisive action. It is when one sees himself in need of this decisive action that the “fluff” becomes glorious relief toward which one can do nothing but bow in gratitude.
When I got to the point where I was willing to consider this as being true for me, I was instructed to take a month or so and study and pray as if I believed even though I didn’t. If I found after that time that I still didn’t believe I’d know I’d eliminated this myth as just that. It didn’t take long for me to be come convinced I was in need. I’ve since heard this approach described as “sitting in the seat of faith”, that is, putting oneself in the physical place of a man of faith.
I prayed in ignorance. I read with as open a mind as I could have as a man in doubt.
Do Mormons take their lil chillruns to the mall to get pics with the easter bunny?
I don't know????
Won't the older teen girls be their with male elders????? While the young testosterone teen males are sent away for a yr wearing black pants and white shirts to knock on doors and convert heathens like me and you???
Do Mormons take their lil chillruns to the mall to get pics with the easter bunny?
I don't know????
Won't the older teen girls be their with male elders????? While the young testosterone teen males are sent away for a yr wearing black pants and white shirts to knock on doors and convert heathens like me and you???
heathens?
I ain't taking no porch reading from someone dressed like an applebees bus boy
The happy van comes around occasionally but them are the jehova's witnesses. Them shi tbyrds won't even salute my flag.
Me and brian(world's worst Mormon) Talked to a little hottie(Melanie rios type) and her plain jane friend last summer when they was spreading the Mormon msg in our neighborhood.
18 , 19 yr old Mormon young women out on missions now I geuss.
Not a smart idea if ya ask me.....
But I'm sure it is about the benjamins.....
Gawd she was fugging hot Looking!!!!
Think I rubbed one out the next morning thinking about her and looking at Melanie Rios vids.
Me and brian(world's worst Mormon) Talked to a little hottie(Melanie rios type) and her plain jane friend last summer when they was spreading the Mormon msg in our neighborhood.
18 , 19 yr old Mormon young women out on missions now I geuss.
Not a smart idea if ya ask me.....
But I'm sure it is about the benjamins.....
Gawd she was fugging hot Looking!!!!
Think I rubbed one out the next morning thinking about her and looking at Melanie Rios vids.
Always been women on missions but they were fuggly usually the good looking Mormon girls got married not the case these days. . I’m probably the worlds worst Mormon drink coffee and drink beer and liquor.. if I remember right they have to be 19 to go on a mission...
That guy is/was bat [bleep] crazy documentary on Netflix I think called the lost boys. Anyhow talks about how they would load up these boys and banish them. To eliminate competition for the women
Do they save all the hot 15 yr olds for the 50 yr old guys?
Send the young men out on 10speed bike missions while the girles get married off. Then when they come off missions, all is left is bertha and gurtha the zitted up red heads addicted to frosted cinnamon rolls?
Do they save all the hot 15 yr olds for the 50 yr old guys?
Send the young men out on 10speed bike missions while the girles get married off. Then when they come off missions, all is left is bertha and gurtha the zitted up red heads addicted to frosted cinnamon rolls?
Hahaha
Lol those group are break away from the mainstream LDS church and all are ex communicated. This is a big black eye on the church because everyone still asks about multiple wives. Far as mainstream LDS church not many 15 yr old marrying 50 yr olds anymore. .
Other than eating all the frigging live and dead bait , when ever I turn my back. I ain't got no issue with Khan, other than what a little Listerine can't take care of.
Do they save all the hot 15 yr olds for the 50 yr old guys?
Send the young men out on 10speed bike missions while the girles get married off. Then when they come off missions, all is left is bertha and gurtha the zitted up red heads addicted to frosted cinnamon rolls?
Hahaha
They run off all the young men so the only options they have is the creep 50 year old guys.
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