I've noticed everyone I've had chamber a barrel for me does things a bit different. They indicated in different places, some use solid reamer holders some floating, and some bore out part of the chamber before using the reamer. What methods do you prefer and why?

Who does a good chamber job at a reasonable price with decent turn around time? More importantly who stands behind their work. It's pretty frustrating when things don't work and the smith blames the barrel and the barrel manufacturer blames the smith.

I've got several barrels on hand and need to start getting a few chambered.

Thanks,
Bb

For me depends on the chamber.

Indicating is the same barrel chucked in lathe muzzle supported with a center in the head stock, Still need to build my adjustable indicating bar center. It's design was posted here by another user years ago and is a very good design.

Indicating rod in the bore, indicate the length of the chamber to within .0005" or better for precision rifles. and have at it.. the chamber needs to be as close to center (concentricity) and as straight( angularity) as possible in relation to the bore where it is located in the barrel. I think a lot of guy over think the process and don't really understand what is going on. once that bullet is in the bore the chamber is out of the equation

If the chamber is fairly large yeah bore out the bulk first, no sense in beating up your reamer doing roughing work.

Form reaming can be difficult and soem forget to slow the machine down slower then conventional reaming speeds for the material you are working with, You can't go to slow, lots of high sulphur oil and clear the chips often. develop a feel on the tail stock to know how your reamer is cutting and if it's having a hard time. Finish the chamber's last .010" or so by hand and leave .0005"-.001" for polish. You've got .004" to .006" headspace to play with.

But are we talking a Bench rest rifle, a precision rifle, (tactical) a hunting rifle, or a big game gun? different tolerances and attention to detail for each of these,

I'm sure if it could be done someone would want their bench gun with an internally ground chamber.

James Parfet wrote about boring a "near perfect" chamber. Wrote it took him about 45 minutes once he got used to it ("Gunsmithing Tips & Projects," Wolfe Publishing, 1989. All kinds of good stuff in it.) Anybody here try it?

I chuck the chamber end of the blank in my 4 jaw with the muzzle through the spindle and indicate it in with a spider or use a mandrel on a center in the muzzle. Indicate the bore to .0005, face the blank off, turn and thread the tenon, and cut the chamber using a JGS floating reamer holder. The big lathe I prefer to use for barrel work has flow through coolant system that pumps through the mandrel in the bore. I use a Rustlick brand coolant, don't remember the model but it's the orange one.
I prefer to use a finish reamer from the start and once I start the job I want to concentrate on only it until I'm done. Just more comfortable that way.

I've used lathe dogs and even a Crescent wrench to hold the reamer in the past as well as a floating reamer holder I had to build as a project in gunsmith school. I've been using the JGS unit for 8 years now and like it the best of all that I've tried. I've also done a chamber or three using a steady rest and prefer the 4 jaw. Many ways to skin the cat, just have to use what works for you.

I do basically the same thing after the barrel is set up in the 4-jaw, but add a step: after the face on the blank is done, I make a small cut with a boring bar on the bore, then recheck setup using a centering bar. Amazing how the bores can be off a thou or four from the OD. Once the bore is centered to within .0005, then and only then do I start to thread the tenon..

I want that bore centered...

I use a cathead on both ends in the headstock. I don't use and wouldn't use a 4 jaw unless you have a soft material between the jaws and the barrel. The jaws can bend the barrel.



My chuck side cat head built from scrap. I like copper tips as it is softer than brass. I have a set of Deltronic Pins for ea. bore size that I chamber. They are a set of 25 in .0001 increments. I indicate both ends initially. I cut the tenon and thread first. I predrill the chamber to get rid of material and to allow either of my long reach indicators to reach as close to the throat as I can. I want my chamber to be coaxial to the throat. I taper bore to the throat. It is time to chamber now. I do not like floating reamer holders. I push and don't allow the tailstock or other things to influence the direction of the reamer.
Just my way and what I've learned that works best for me. I no longer do this for the public. I'm finishing up on my 280AI barrel as we speak.

I only build for myself , i prefer to chamber from the head stock and center the bore as close as possible from the outside diameter of the shank and then use a indicator rod to dial center within .0005 . I use a cat-head to make sure the barrel is indicated from both ends. I then cut the tenon and face off to length , cut the bolt head recess since i only use 700 actions and then thread the tenon , i then cut my chamber with a finishing reamer only at 115 rpm and use a Bald Eagle Floating reamer holder for this. After chamber is cut i then polish the chamber . I then take the barrel out and polish up the complete outside with wet sand paper using the three jaw chuck then after barrel polish i cut the barrel to length and back in the 4 jaw indicate and cut the crown . I have chambered from the steady rest but not my favorite way of cutting chambers and only do this when the barrel is to short to chamber from the head stock. 6.5-06 setup in steady rest . I moved the steady rest closer to the chamber end before I starting cutting the chamber. Rifle after finished 6.5-06.

Butch pointed it out, And I guess I should have said it but it kinda goes without mentioning that anytime you have a finished part being chucked on in the lathe yes you need to use some padding on the jaws. I guess it's second nature with me just to do that no matter what. If not you will have some sanding and polishing to do afterwards. No way to do a professional job, and be sure the padding you use is thick enough as a little piece of .062" aluminum is not enough to prevent the jaws from digging in.

I use copper bushing i Wrap around the barrel shank. You can see the light reflect off it in the steady rest setup photo

I use brass pads between the jaws and the OD to keep them from marring or digging into the blank. And as Redneck suggested, yes it's the bore that's indicated not the OD. I could care less what the OD is doing as long as I'm centered on the bore.

I would never chamber a barrel just indicated from the outside diameter of the shank

nor would I waste my time indicating the muzzle any closer then a couple of thou on the bore. It's not needed nor will it make a hill of bean difference.

go take a trashed barrel and slice it up in about ten pieces and see how far the bore drifts in the barrel granted on a good barrel it's not much usually within .010" of center to the OD but I've seen some real bad ones .050" off center.

So indicating the muzzle should only be done to insure that the barrel will mount on the receiver in concentricity as close to the axis of the bolt as possible. this will prevent gross corrections in windage and elevation in sights. Remember .0005" run out on the shoulder = .007" at the muzzle with a 20" barrel. Give or take I'm using Remington Dimensions too.

So if your muzzle is dialed into within .002" run out over 20" you're better then .0001" per inch of run out?? does it really need to be that damn close?? nope because the bullet was just traveling god knows how far off center of bore axis just 10" prior to the muzzle. most people can't see .005" run out in a lathe spinning. so again indicate the bore at the muzzle for squareness of the shoulder to the receiver ring and to reduce bore sighting issues. out side of that there is not reason but to waste time indicating a muzzle to .0005"

I always indicate off the bore. Depends on barrel size I only have a 1 1/8 spindle bore. I either use a face plate with center and a turning dog and steady rest for large barrels. Or a 4 jaw chuck for conventional contours. I have made some 1 1/8 bushings about 2 1/2 inches long tapered on the inside for the different contours that I use to center muzzle end of the barrel in the spindle bore. I use a Clymer floating reamer holder turn slow and use black sulfur and lard based thread cutting oil for both reaming and threading. Use a finish reamer from start to finish. I do the last .010 by hand with action screwed on. Many many ways to skin the cat.

Yep!
How do you indicate the bore in the steady rest?

Kind of what I was thinking If I was looking for a re barrel and saw that set up I may look a bit more. But to tell the truth have never tried it maybe the threw hole is small and this is a solution?

Steady rest is fine if you first turn your tenon to be exactly coaxial to the bore or you will be chambering a bore that is running out in the steady.

I have a question for you really experienced guys, I am using an outboard spider and a cathead mounted on a back plate to dial in my barrels. I am using a long reach indicator at two points inside the bore of the muzzle and can dial it into ~.0005" at two points in the bore.

When i look at the chamber end in the outboard spider it looks like it is WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY out spinning ecentric? is this normal? or is this just becuase the bore is not striat in the barrel?

Should i be dialing in both sides of the barrel to .0005" on the muzzle end and chamber end, to get the whole bore running true through the spindle?

You are doing it the best way. All barrels are curved to some extent. Ignore the other end. When on the chamber end you want to notate the high spot so you can clock it at 12:00 on the action. I dial the throat and then 2" farther in. Then thread, bore and chamber with the 2" portion dialed into perfection. This get's the bullet a straight into the bore as humanly possible. Do the same on the crown and muzzle threads to get the bullet out of the bore as straight as possible.

When you have your barrel dialed in how much TIR are you seeing on the other end (out board spider)? Im only asking becuase the last barrel i dialed in seemed like alot

And where did you get this info? Off the internet probably. You couldn't make a bore banana shaped if you tried. They may not be perfectly straight, but they ain't banana shaped.
Give me a list of the winning competition gunsmiths using the Gordy method.
Now tell me what indicator you use that is long enough to reach in to the throat and an additional 2".

Butch thats what im getting at i think im doing something wrong? i shouldnt have that much runout on the outboard spider side right? Its just a facotry take off barrel im learning on. Im using a long reach indicator and measuring off the bore and lands, i measure at the end of the barrel then run the indicator as far in as i can and dial in at that point.

Chambering a barrel is like voodoo magic to gunsmiths. They all have their little quirks on setting up a barrel. BOTH methods work. You'll find that 'smith's who chamber barrels for short range benchrest prefer to indicate both the muzzle and the throat area in while SUCESSFUL longrange gunsmith indicate the throat area and 2" forward.

We learned it in person at Gordy's basement shop in Kansas City MS. Much research and testing went into choosing a method before I flew Brady out to study directly with Gordy for a week. We use weighted Grizzly rods and a Starrett No. 708A .0001" indicator to reach the throat and 2" farther in. We don't stop dialing until the needle has no perceptible run out. That's the best that can be done.

Not many winning gunsmith publishing their actual methods but I would venture to guess Gordy and Shiraz are not the only ones. That system makes more sense than any other method. The banana bores are real and can be reliably measured and proven. Does it mean that between centers can't work. Certainly not. I would venture the majority of records were set before Gordy ever took up the sport. I also know that to be at the top guys are hand picking the best barrels possible, chambering themselves or having them done and then testing to find the best ones. The rest are sold to varmint hunters. Even using our method I would still do the same if I wanted to compete.

The 708A Starrett has a 13/16" probe. How do you reach 3.5" plus with a 13/16" probe. I do know many of the winning gunsmiths personally. 95% of them do it in the headstock. They indicate both ends. If your barrel is curved in the bore, Gordy's method will not straighten it. A crooked bore is like a spiral. Top guys hand picking barrels is BS and nobody can tell you if a barrel is good until it is shot. Tony Boyer is without a doubt the best BR shooter of all time by a great margin. Tony can shoot a barrel about 25 rounds and he will know if it is good. I hope your shop is not selling sub standard barrels to the public.

How does your method "straighten" a crooked bore?

There's a lot more to shooting beyond SR Benchrest...

This is a tough room tonight. How can you critique the Gordy method if you don't even know what it is as demonstrated by your response? Slow down and reread the whole post. I will try one more time but this is it. If I wanted I can reach about 8" or 9" into a barrel with a 12" long Grizzly rod. I hang a weight on it and use an O-ring lubed up in a drill chuck for it to pivot from. The business end has a fitted bushing on it and rides on the top of the lands held down by the weight. The Starret 708A is located as close to the barrel as possible to read any movement of the Grizzly rod.

I locate the end of the Grizzly rod with a fitted bushing at the throat and then 2" farther in. I go back and forth between those two spots and adjust until there is no perceptible runout for that 2" section. Then the barrel tennon is machined, the chamber single point cut to within .005" to .010" at the shoulder so when the reamer comes in the bushing is supported by the perfectly dialed in throat and 2" farther up the bore. Otherwise it's all for naught as the reamer will just follow the crooked bore leading up to the dialed in section.

Still with me? This gets the chamber and bullet perfectly aligned with that part of the bore. Inspection with the bore scope will now show that the throat and all rifling are of uniform length from the neck.

Dialing both ends at the same time will show rifling starting closer to the neck on one side than the other due to the curve present in every barrel. Even the slightest misalignment shows up with the borescope. In my shop that is cause for reject and the culled barrel is trashed on my dime. No questions asked. That's just me.

I wish I could prove my method shoots better but the truth is it is about impossible prove. As you know, no one can tell for sure how a barrel will shoot until you actually shoot it. We have all tuned up some factory trash that shot way better than it should. I can't explain why they work but the results on paper can't be disputed.

Dialing both ends at the same time, no one can tell if the barrel has any curve to it. Barrels are contoured from the ends so on the outside all looks well. While inside is another story.

When I said hand select they are slugging and visually inspecting the bore. The best ones are then machined up and then test fired. Same as I said earlier. The good ones go to the match and the sub par ones get sold to who ever at a discount. There is no secrets or deception. What does Tony Boyer do with his new barrels that are not up to shooting in competition? Does he melt them down or trash for scrap? Not likely. I'm pretty certain they end up getting sold to somebody.

No one is straightening a bore or a barrel. No one can control the bore inside a barrel so the best we can do is get the bullet into the bore as straight as possible and out of the crown as straight as possible. We also try to start with the best barrel we can find to begin with. Even here on hunting rifles we inspect every barrel before we waste a dime of the customers money machining on it. If the barrel doesn't pass then it is returned to the barrel maker for replacement.

I like precision. I like the best machining possible because it makes me feel good about what we do and I believe people deserve the very best for their money. For a fee I'm sure Gordy will be happy to teach it to you too. Like us, he loves the sport and wants everyone to be as successful as possible.
That's as simple as I can get it.

I have rifles and a race car to build so this will be my last on this subject for awhile.

Shawn

I built a tool similar to what you described. I soldered a pair of balls to a piece of drill rod. One end is held in a starrett center finder, the other rides the bore with a small weight to keep it down on the lands. I also have a 312b that has the 2.75" reach. I can't fine any appreciable difference, but the interapids has less margin of error, yet offers potential side loading the stylus.

I always try to start with my spiders close to zero on the bore on both ends, but from there.....it is what it is per the business end of the bore. I like to single point to get started just because I can't believe that little bushing is gonna work that hard to follow the bore perfectly. I use a floating holder that I built myself. I would love to have a rigid holder.....but I again can't swallow being able to yank it out of the bore 25 times and stay bang on, and my flush system is not yet done.

My system works well enough for me and my measuring tools. I can stay inside 3 tenths on my chamber using my system and sometimes better.

If I could change anything, I would have to try the deal nate dagley built in hopes of cutting my time. I can't do better work with what I have, but I would love to be able to do it faster.

Just wanted to save that little jewel...

Shawn a few years ago Dwight Scott (the smith who actually chambers barrels for Tony Boyer) was working on evaluating barrels prior to chambering and then tracking the barrel on how well it shot. Dwight was working with John Krieger to make improvements in John's barrels. I never did find out what Dwight used to critique a barrel, I do know people who received barrels from Dwight and we're told to save said barrel for national events, Dwight felt they were excellent barrels.

FWIW, if one does the math on a bore out even .050" over the 26" or 28"......you are talking about a bit of deflection that most of us can't chase out in the length of a throat with much luck unless you have a 500 tpi adjustment stud on your spider.

Or I'm just impatient. Or honest.

Shawn,
I know about Gordy's method and I have visited with him extensively. AJ Mag, ask Dwight about his chambering sessions with Tony. Ask him about Tony staying with him and looking over Dwight's shoulder. I think Dwight is as good a BR gunsmith as any person. You might ask him why he doesn't use the Gordy method.
Thank about this Shawn. A crooked bore is not banana shaped. It will be a helix. If the barrel is not straight, how can you indicate 2 points to the same exact axis. You can't. If you have done any machine work, you will know that you can't put a .2371 bushing in a .2371 hole. It would have to be about .2368 to slide in the bore. Also the bushing will require .0003 clearance on the Gordy rod.
Think about this for a little. I will return with more.

Gunsmiths can fuss all day about their methods of chambering a barrel and most of these smiths will turn out good shooting rifles , others will turn out average shooting rifle and every now and then one will turn out a great shooting rifle capable of winning matches. Every body has their way of doing things and some are just better than others. The best way to judge a Gunsmith is to look at his record.

Yes you can...

If your statement were true than how can you dial in the throat area of a barrel and at the same time dial in the muzzle area 20"+ away placing them both in the same plain?

Been doing it for over 34 years as a journeyman toolmaker, but hey you know better.

AJ300mag,
I guess I wasn't clear. I'm saying a barrel with a helix or whatever, you cannot indicate the bore or grooves to the same axis 3.5" apart and it being exactly straight between those 2 points. Is that better?
When I indicate both ends with my Deltronic pins, I am not concerned about what the barrel does between these 2 points and we have no control over it either.

Questions again?

Better...

Thing is, that 2" area between the two points will be closer to zero runout than if you idicate the point of the throat and the point of the muzzle crown, and then check the area forward of the throat. I've seen minor differences in the length of the pin. I understand the concept of trying to keep the bullet aligned with the bore using Gordy's method, yet benchrest smith's will tell you it doesn't matter. As I've said earlier other than in benchrest either method appears to work. I've done benchrest barrels using both methods and haven't seen a difference, I'm not at Tony's level of shooting either.

I think I'll stick with the magic pixie dust...

If I can indicate the throat and taper bore just short of it, It will be coaxial to the throat. Now my reamer will follow the taper bored hole and my reamed hole will be coaxial to my throat. It doesn't matter with my method or Gordy's as we still have no control over the straightness of the rest of the bore. My throat will allow for the bullet to be aligned to the bore. To get your compound at the right angle to taper bore put your reamer in the tailstock and indicate a flute until your compound is parallel with it. I ream with a pusher that I made. I don't want a reamer holder to influence my reamer travel.
Takes a lot of time.

I follow roughly the same process. Pre-drill the chamber and then check the throat area one last time. I bore the chamber (straight) to .01" under the shoulder diameter and then ream with a pusher, no floating holders for me.

Not to mention those indicating rods are not perfectly straight to begin with.

It's all tolerance stacking. or indicator can only read so close, the rod has it tolerance, How much runout in the spindle bearings of the lathe (not talking about your Monarch Butch) all this stuff adds up.
and like I said in my first post is depends.

And old Mosin nagant I'd chamber that with a cordless drill,
A precision rifle. I'm going to indicate with a rod to as best i can while also chasing my tail trying to keep the muzzle close to true.

On a bech rest gun... I'me sending it out for someone better then me to do

And guys if you don't know what Butch is getting at with a helical bore you don't understand deep hole drilling. The holes that are not straight are in a helix and don't just curve off in one direction. it's just like using a really long drive shaft you build torsion and that not only twists the shaft it also compresses and it ends up in a slight helix every time.

I could do the same with a rusty coat hanger. The method is not dependent on straightness or spindle slop of which I have none by the way. The weight holds the slack out. The .0001" indicator has zero movement at the throat and 2" farther is as good as it gets. Helix, banana, garden hose in a pile or a crazy straw with a knot in it. This method gets the bullet into the bore straighter than any other way. Until something better comes along this is the best way. Sorry I can't take credit for it.

Between centers shows up every time in the borescope and that constitutes a cull barrel. Even if they still shoot great I would never know because that barrel would have went in the trash. I refuse to bank shoot bullets into the wall of the barrel just because that's the way it's always been done.

Well you can sell that lathe for a million dollars because there is no machine in the world built that doesn't have run out. Add age and wear and tear and it gets worse.

Believe me you machine has runout you just never looked for it. Or if you feel so confident just show me the factor test report that came with your machine when you bought it.

A Hardinge second op lathe or one of the really nice Leblond's or Monarchs with the million dollar bearing option still have measured and noted run out. On the better machines it's listed in the millionths of an inch but on a standard tool room machine .0001" is not uncommon at the spindle. then add the TIR for everything you mount to the spindle, Magnify the spindle run out because now you are working a few inches away from the spindle face.

Then pull the specs on your indicator and read the accuracy and repeatability spec,
Even an interapid will not repeat to zero. See you trust a tool that you think has no degree of uncertainty.

[quote]I refuse to bank shoot bullets into the wall of the barrel just because that's the way it's always been done./quote]

Yet you refuse to look at the real numbers coming into play on your machine with your equipment and your tools. When was the last time that indicator was calibrated? Straightness of the rod matters to unless you are not rotating it with the barrel then you are potentially scaring up the bore.

All I'm saying is add up your runout and you will see it's not as close as you think

Young man,
You have a lot to learn about machine work. I hope your mind is not closed on this subject.

I learn more every day. Do you? When a better way comes along I will be one of the first to adopt it. To ignore the superior and to hold on to the old way is simple closed mindedness. You are very firm that a bore cannot have a curve to it. The first I ever heard of it was at PacNor they showed me how they checked for it last thing before shipping. They actually scrapped a couple right there while showing me. Gave them to me to practice on before I turned pro. I can prove it all day long. They also showed me barrels where the deep drill went right out the side. Helix shape or not the bore on average will have a definite curve to it and dialed by the ends your chamber is launching bullets into the bore at an angle. This method adjusts for both flaws.

Now be clear here! I never said that way will not shoot well. Certainly records were set that way. I just think there is a better way now and wish to use it.

I have spoke to my other barrel suppliers and Dave Kiff about it thoroughly and they agree with my findings. Dave even went so far as to develop a bore straightness gauge. I would never use it but there is a demand for it. http://shop.pacifictoolandgauge.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=310_124

Here is a fresh tennon right of my run out master lathe. I bought it brand new and other than a little tooling it has been used for nothing but barrel work. It leads a very pampered life. Bad part is when I use my methods the indicator just lays dead like it's broke. That's what I call zero run out. Could more sensitive equipment find some? Sure but it would have to sort it out from the surface finish to find it.

Now another question. How do you compensate for the sideways torque you place on your reamers driving them with a pusher and holding a single handle?

When I use my .00005" indicator on my weighted rod setup I can watch it move by just moving the 4oz. weight around, or by putting my hands on the chuck.

But at the end of the day I believe that I stand a better chance of winning accuracy by ammo building than by wringing the last micro millionth of an inch out. There is a lot more places to lose accuracy.

Tell me, Can you purposely cut a chamber with runout?

Quote-when I use my methods the indicator just lays dead like it's broke

I can tell by your post that you didn't read my post on my chambering method.
Oh, by the way I use a 3' piece of black pipe to hold my reamer pusher. HaHaHaHaHa!

I surely could cut one with run out. Easy as an old man falling off the can. I would just use your method, Deltronic pins and all. It's all in black and white. You just admitted you are cutting the tennon and chamber on two different setups. The tennon on the end initially then the chamber off the throat. Guaranteed chamber run out every time.

Say, you didn't pass through Geneseo Illinois mid 1963 did you? Your head is about as hard as mine.

Never been in Illinois, but have lived in Arizona, Alaska twice, Oklahoma, and Texas.
I see that you are not able to process my method.

I did check your post and you said to mark the high end on the chamber side and clock it to 12 o'clock on the receiver. Why?
You didn't mention how you chambered.

Dave Kiff didn't develop a bore straightness gage, The Germans used them in WWI.

He may have adapted a system but he ain't the guy responsible for it's development

The point was he makes one now. I may be German but don't have very good recollection of anything from before I was born.

In the world of firearms it's really hard to truly do anything that hasn't been done before.

On this thread check post #9842190 and see if that clears it up my method. I will try to cover it again here but Gordy's video does a pretty good job. I run my indicator on top of the rod with a little weight on it to keep the slack out. The meat of it is here in the sample video.



The reason to clock the curve up is to keep it centered in the stock and to give the shooter a little more elevation from the rifle. Why is it off? Good question. The tennon and chamber are all machined in one setup based on the bore location of the throat and 2" farther in. We drill and single point prebore so the reamer has a true heading to follow. Very similar to how you do yours with the compound angled. This is done in an effort to get the chamber and therefore the bullet launched as square into that 2" section of barrel as straight as possible. While dialed in at this specific location will cause the rest of the barrel to point off somewhere to the side due to the difference in the path of the bore at this spot and the overall outside of the barrel. The high spot is noted and when the action is clocked we set it so the barrel is pointing to the 12 o'clock position. The secondary benefit to this is an optically centered scope will be zero usually within a click or two of optical center. Yes, it's that good.

I wish you could be here to see it in person. I'm really not as big a dick as you think you have. Okay. well maybe I am. For real now. I really believe we love the sport so much we want people to get the most out of it and have as much success as possible. At least that's what I believe is the reason people are in this business. I would love to be able to load better ammo and shoot better on paper.

I have seen Gordy's video and visited with him about it. I understand his intent, but don't agree. Is that OK?
I think you meant to say you you clocked the muzzle up and not the chamber end as you mentioned. If you did that, you would have no control of which way the muzzle pointed.
I'm not saying that you aren't doing a good job, I just prefer to do a good job a different way.
By the way, My Monarch 10EE has 50 millionths headstock bearings.
Just keep looking for better machinery and better methods and you will do fine.

A good job is a good job, As grandpa said ,many ways to skin a cat http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/11/voyeurs-guide-to-barrel-chambering-part.html ,
For a novice like me I enjoyed reading this guys approach. very best WinPoor