Any of you hunt in very cold conditions below 32 degrees? It is often quite cold and snowy in the areas I have gone hunting/backpacking in. I have been using a home built alcohol stove (have built a few models)and am a bit tired of it. The thing isn't very efficient, I can never get a full rolling boil with water and there is no adjusting the flame. I am thinking of investing in a backpacking stove and have read that canister stoves don't work well in the cold. Anyone have any opinions on using these in these conditions? Should I go with a white gas type?

Have you tried different alcohol stoves? I can get 2 cups of water to a rolling boil with my gram weenie. Another option might be esbit if you want to stay super light.

As for the canister stoves they work fine in the cold but they require way more TLC to make it work right. White gas works excellent in the cold. You need to keep the canisters warm if you wanted to go that way. All you really need to do is put them in your jacket or sleeping bag. In your pack with a hand warmer also works.

Now if you really want it good just buy both You can never have too many stoves.

In really cold weather, the white gas stove will out perform a canister stove, but there are some tricks you can use to get a canister stove to work in cold temps.

1) Choose a cold weather fuel

2) Preheat the canister (put it in your sleeping bag)

The last two aren't recomemded but can work if you are careful.

3)Use a wind screen that redrirects some of the heat to the canister. This is a balancing act, you need to apply enough heat to counter act the cooling as the gas expands, but not so much as you blow the thing up. I figure if you can keep your finger on the canister without burning it its ok.

4)Get a length of stiff copper wire and take 4 wraps around the canister and run the other end of the wire up to the flame. The wire will transfer enough heat to the canister to keep things going.

All in all I think that there is room for all three stove types in an outdoor persons inventory. For me alcohol is the light and simple solution for distance hiking. Canister is good for cooking for a group, its fast and convienent and does work a little better in cooler temps than the alcohol stove does (in my hands anyway)

For real cold (below 10F) white gas is the way to go.

Used one of these in the teens, maybe even high single digits with no problems:

http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html


Used one of these at 2 degrees with no problems:

http://www.cascadedesigns.com/MSR/Stoves/Fast-And-Light-Stoves/SimmerLite/product


This choked in the low to mid 20's, although it is handy and quick for warmer temps:

http://www.snowpeak.com/back/stoves/ultralight.html

The super cat is one of the designs I have tried. I just couldn't get it to rolling boil the water. It would bubble a bit, but not roll. Perhaps I should try the red bull can, as it is deeper and can hold more fuel. I built a high pressure "penny" one one out of diet coke cans and fiberglass. It heats the water to the same point as the super cat I had built. I am pretty sure alcohol just won't put out the same kind of btus as a canister or liquid gas stove can.

Would love to get my hands on a simmerlite.

junglecarbine:

STOVE/FUEL COMPARISON

I own a dozen or so stoves, so many that it�s hard to keep track, and I have discarded, sold or given away several more. I own and operate, or have operated, or have seen operated just about every kind of stove that�s on the market today or has been on the market for the last fifty years.

I�ll discuss fuel first. The most common types of fuel include wood, white gas, kerosene, Isobutane, propane, Sterno, and alcohol. Other less common types include butane, unleaded gas and diesel. Each has its� advantages and disadvantages.

Archeologists have discovered the remnants of fire pits in excavation dating from about 100,000 years ago. So human beings have burned wood for heat and/or cooking for about that long. You have to know how to get a fire going and in today�s increasingly urbanized world, some people just simply haven�t had much experience. Wood cook fires will coat your pots in messy soot and that can get inside your pack if you don�t clean them properly before packing. It takes longer to cook over a campfire since you have to get the fire going, burn enough wood to create a good bed of coals, then wait for the fire to die down some so you can get close enough to the fire to start cooking. Today, many people are reluctant to have a campfire because of the impact on the environment. This is most obvious in high-use areas such as US Forest Service campgrounds and other high-use places where people camp often. No matter how you burn wood, you have to deal with smoke. Wood is lightweight since you don�t carry it at all, you pick it up at camp and it can be used for heat as well as for cooking. The price of wood is right since it can be gathered free from the environment.

White gas is a clean (filtered) form of gasoline and it is a petroleum product. White gas is most often pressurized, usually with a pump, at the point of use. It burns clean and develops high BTU output at just about any ambient air temperature. White gas is moderately priced when considered on a per unit basis, compared to other fuels.

Unleaded gasoline is that which runs your car. It is not as clean as white gas and consequently it can clog tiny orifices like those in the jets of small camp stoves. But unleaded is cheaper than white gas.

Kerosene is also a petroleum distillate and it delivers more BTUs per unit than gasoline but it creates soot in its� flame and it is not as clean as white gas, so it has a tendency to clog tiny orifices like those in stove jets, just like unleaded gas. Kerosene is inexpensive compared to other fuels.

Butane and propane must be discussed together. Butane is a form of natural gas. Propane is a petroleum product. Butane produces fewer BTUs per unit than propane so it can be stored in thin walled containers, usually canisters with a threaded valve on top. Propane is more volatile so it must be stored in thick heavy canisters. Isobutane is a mixture of 70% butane and 30% propane that produces more BTUs than pure butane but still can be stored in lightweight, thin-walled canisters. Pure butane is rarely used in camp stoves today. Propane is very popular for a variety of camp appliances when weight and bulk are not concerns. Butane will not atomize at temperatures below freezing. Isobutane is relatively expensive on a per unit basis. Propane is less expensive than Isobutane but more expensive than white gas, when considered on a per unit basis.

Alcohol is a distillate from the fermentation of just about any organic material. Rubbing alcohol (isopropyl) produces soot that will blacken pots. Denatured alcohol does not produce soot and it produces more BTUs per unit than does rubbing alcohol. Typically, alcohol is burned without pressurization and you can�t see the flame. Alcohol will deteriorate aluminum so you have to carry it in plastic containers. Alcohol is moderately priced compared to other fuels.

Sterno and Esbit are brand names for a product that is offered as a solid cube, wafer or in a can. The solid is impregnated with alcohol. If you�ve ever gone through a buffet line, you probably have seen the small Sterno cans burning away under the pans containing hot food. Canned Sterno contains a gelatin that holds the alcohol. When I was in Viet Nam, we used a mixture of C4 and peanut butter to heat C-rations and we used Sterno tabs to get the mixture burning. We didn�t heat with Sterno tabs because it took too many tabs and it was too slow. Sterno is expensive when considered on a per unit basis.

Today, there are many types of small, lightweight stoves used by backpackers and campers and most are effective for their intended purpose when used within their design parameters.

The first widely available camp stove was invented by Coleman about a century ago. I�ve heard them referred to as �suitcase stoves� and if you�ve done much base camping, you�ve probably used one or a variation thereof. Typically they have two burners and a fold-down wind screen. They originally only burned white gas but today they are available in multi-fuel varieties that can also burn unleaded. You have to occasionally pump the fuel tank during operation to maintain pressure. The same two-burner design is also available today using propane, which eliminates the need for pumping. The fuel tank is stored inside the case. They are too bulky and heavy for backpacking but they are still a mainstay in base camping.

Coleman invented an aluminum cylinder stove that burned white gas, for use by GIs during WWII. The fuel tank is attached to the stove and it fits inside two cylindrical pots that twist together. My father had one when I was a kid but it eventually developed a leak and it was cheaper to replace it with a new stove than it was to have the leak brazed shut. In their day, they were about the best thing available for lightweight camping. They haven�t been in production for decades and are now looked upon as antiques.

There are a variety of small, lightweight wood burners on the market that significantly reduce the amount of wood that is used and consequently reduce the time that you have to wait before starting to cook. Many fold into a small lightweight package. You can fabricate your own from a coffee can using a can opener and a pair of tin snips.

After WWII, Optimus started producing small light weight camp stoves that burn white gas. They offered several models and the all-brass models are among the most elegant stoves ever produced. Typically they are auto-generators, which means you have to prime them to get them started and heat from the fire eventually warms the fuel tank to make the fuel atomize. They don�t work well in extreme cold or in high winds because those elements reduce the effect of auto-generation. You can still see them on some store shelves today, but they are not hot items since other, more modern designs are more popular.

MSR started manufacturing the �XGK� stove about 50 years ago. It burns white gas and (according to the manufacturer) will also burn just about any kind of combustible liquid; unleaded gas, kerosene, JP4 jet fuel, perfume, high-proof liquor, alcohol, diesel, etc. It is built very sturdy and will take a lot of abuse but it�s heavy and bulky by modern standards for lightweight backpacking stoves. It�s still the stove of choice for Himalayan expeditions because white gas is not readily available in Nepal and kerosene is. The jets can be easily clogged by dirty types of fuel but MSR offers a jet designed for kerosene. It can be field maintained and repair kits are readily available. It has to be primed to get started and pumped occasionally during use. MSR also offers the �Whisperlite� stove. It�s a smaller, lighter version of the XGK and has been the mainstay of mountain climbers in the U.S. for several decades. It use to have problems with the jets getting clogged but modern �Shaker Jets� seem to have reduced that problem significantly. Like the XGK, it can be field maintained and repair kits are readily available. It also has to be primed to get started and pumped occasionally during use. It�s not very good at simmering. Another offering from MSR is the �Dragonfly� stove. It has a second valve that improves simmering capability. I own all three of these MSR stoves and I prefer the Dragonfly. I rebuild them occasionally and change the �O� rings on the fuel bottles annually. The XGK and Dragonfly produce a very powerful flame and I suspect that it�s powerful enough to sweat solder copper pipe.

Several companies offer small lightweight Isobutane stoves. They are very simple to operate bordering on idiot proof. Some have hoses that connect the canister to the stove and some stoves screw directly onto the top of the canister. I personally like the type that screw directly on top, because they are lighter and less bulky. I own a Hummingbird stove that is the hose type and it must be assembled/disassembled before and after use. But it becomes a reasonably compact package when disassembled. It is about twenty-five years old and it�s still available on store shelves and it costs only $25. The Coleman Peak One Mini Butane stove can be purchased at Wal Mart for $25. It just might be the best value offered for small lightweight isobutene stoves. I also own an MSR �Pocket Rocket� and an Optimus �Crux� that screw on top. Both are excellent stoves. The Crux can be placed into a small pouch that fits inside the dome on the bottom of an Isobutane canister, so the finished package is extremely compact. The Pocket Rocket fits into a small plastic container provided by the manufacturer. They do not require any assembly or maintenance. Either they work and you continue using them or they don�t work and you throw them away. I have only discarded one Isobutane stove since 1972. It was still working after about twenty years of use, but the pot stand connectors eventually broke. Isobutane is a mixture of propane and butane and butane does not atomize at temps below freezing. So if you use one in freezing temperatures, it performs poorly while the propane burns off and stops working all together when there�s nothing left but butane. The empty canisters tend to accumulate on a long expedition and waste volume in your pack while carrying them back to civilization. I recently saw a friend break out his new Snow Peak stove and use it to heat a cup of tea on a day hike. It�s similar to the Pocket Rocket and Crux.

The Jetboil and MSR Reactor are Isobutane stoves that come with a combination wind screen/pot stand/flue that makes them very efficient users of fuel. They are designed for boiling water and they accomplish this task more efficiently than most other stoves, which means you have to carry less fuel. It�s not very good for cooking (like frying fish or simmering a casserole) but if all you need to do is boil water to re-hydrate freeze-dried food, one of those stoves might be your best choice.

The Primus Omnifuel stove has a fuel tank and pump for burning white gas and it will also accept Isobutane canisters. That seems like a good idea on the surface. However, the best thing about Isobutane stoves is that they are so lightweight and compact. So they are the best choice for ultra-lightweight summer backpacking. However, the Primus Omnifuel is neither lightweight nor compact when compared to other Isobutane stoves. So if you use it in the summer and burn Isobutane then you would be combining all the disadvantages of white gas stoves and Isobutane stoves. A friend tells me that his works fine in cold conditions when burning white gas, and as good as an MSR Whisperlite. So if you wanted to buy only one stove and use it in every situation, then a Primus Omnifuel stove might be your best option. But keep in mind that in the summer, you will be carrying some extra weight that takes up more room in your pack.

I own a small Safesport alcohol burner stove. It�s not quite as small and light as the Pocket Rocket or Crux, but it�s close. It takes a long time to get started and alcohol delivers fewer BTUs per unit that white gas so it takes more fuel to boil a given amount of water. It�s absolutely silent when operating. So if you want a hot cup of coffee in a blind and don�t want to make any noise, it�s the way to go.

I own several propane appliances; stoves, lanterns and space heaters. Generally they are of the brand �X� variety bought at Wal Mart, K Mart or Target. They are inexpensive, simply made and so easy to operate that they are almost idiot proof. The fuel canisters are big and heavy so not good for backpacking. I use them exclusively for base camping because they are so convenient. There�s no priming, no pumping and no maintenance. Just turn on the knob, light them and they work.

All stoves have their various hazards. Alcohol stoves can be spilled and you could get burning fuel on you and your gear/tent and you can't even see the flames. Most white gas stoves require some priming and that can create fire a hazard if too much fuel is used for priming. On rare occasions, white gas fuel bottles/pumps can leak and the dripping fuel can catch fire. Any fuel bottle with old "O" rings can leak so keep the "O" rings fresh and new. Butane canister stoves can experience some problems but it seems less prevalent in them because we usually use the canisters soon after buying them so the "O" rings don't have time to go bad. I see that Jetboil currently has a voluntary recall of one of its' control valves because it occasionally but rarely leaks. Propane canisters can also leak if they are stored too long. It�s possible to accidentally leave the valve open on most Isobutane and propane appliances and that can result in filling a tent with volatile gas just waiting to explode or asphyxiate someone. So it�s very important to close the valve securely every time you use the item.

I use Isobutane canister stoves for ultra-light summer backpacking because they are lightweight, compact and simple to operate.

I use white gas stoves for winter camping and for trips into the Alaska bush because they operate effectively in sub-freezing temperatures and I haven�t seen Isobutane canisters on the store shelves in Alaskan bush communities.

I use propane appliances for base camping because propane is less expensive than Isobutane and because propane appliances are more convenient to operate than white gas appliances. I don�t care about the weight/bulk of the propane canisters when base camping.

KC

Awesome post KC, thanks!...............DJ

You can use canister stoves in the cold but there are a few tricks so to speak for maximum performance.





White gas is more forgiving however. Yea might want to go with that option.



On the topic of alcohol stoves what type of alcohol fuel are you using? Do you employ a wind screen?

I wonder how many rabid environmentalists (the ones who pack out their toilet paper and bicyle everywhere to prevent global warming) use canister stoves - the ones with the throw away canisters. I wonder how much 'global warming' comes from their manufacture and how many end up in landfills.

Gobal warming is BS, but I do remember reading somewhere that thousands of fuel canisters are left annually along some of the major US hiking trails. Apparently being a gram weenie is more important (for some) than taking care of Mother Earth when it's a matter of convenience.

What are you burning in your alcohol stoves? Alcohol is low on BTU's, but I have never had problems with fresh alcohol getting 2 cups of water to a rolling boil in several different pots so long as it was out of the wind when heating.

That's kind of surprising since locally every place that is used primarily by the self propelled (foot or mountain bikes) is usually fairly clean, but horse/ATV areas have garbage dumped everywhere.

The Simmerlite does work very well. Another stove to look at is the Svea 123 which works very well.

KC, that was a great post. Best write up on stoves I have read. I am using denatured alcohol right now. I run it within a sterno stove I bought (sterno is a horrible fuel) as a windscreen. It doesn't cover the pot from the wind, perhaps that is the reason.

By the way, its a shame that anyone would leave any artificially created product in the wood. I do think packing out toilet paper is a bit excessive, as it is wood pulp and will break down, just as tree bark and bear poop. To me, if you are pretty remote and are careful as to the spot you choose to do what is necceessary, than you are ok in my book.

Where I have backpacked, there are old cars(pre war) and all sorts of stuff abandoned by the lumber jacks half a century or more ago. I have yet to go too remote, but sure plan to this year.

Yeah, you need a windscreen that covers the gap between stove and pot for use with an alcohol stove. With that provision, a mini trangia alchohol stove is about all I use anymore. Simple, reliable, effective. However, in colder weather it is more of a backup for a woodstove than it is a primary.

I made a little Alchohol stove to fit inside my swiss "Volcano" stove and was using yellow "Heet" for fuel. Supposedly it's 99% methanol.

Is there any real difference in heat potential between Methonal and Denatured? Denatured is usually a mix isn't it. The yellow HEET sure burned cleaner than the 99% rubbing alchohol I tried.............................DJ

I, too have many stoves, and for most of my solo stuff, I use the Snow Peak Giga Ti with auto ignition. If it gets below freezing, it's gonna be a problem, though, and the canister must be kept warm. I take my Coleman Xtreme, with Powermax cylinder when I know it's going to be cold. They don't make this stove anymore, but it's the darling of the super-smart dudes over at Backpackinglight.com. If lots of people are going, the MSR reactor gets the nod for me (superfast, sips the fuel). I have the Whisperlite, but the complexity of it, frankly intimidates me, although my guide used it up in Canada with no problem, in all kinds of weather. I've tried alcohol, but I had so many others to play with, it just wasn't "techy" enough for me, I guess. Choices are great...........
Back to your question, google the Coleman Xtreme, it's really cool for the cold stuff, and the canisters are still available off the shelf, and I think you can still get the stoves on ebay.
Don
PS KC, that was an awesome writeup! When I think of all the things I once knew, and forgot, oh well.

I was being facetious when I said some pack out their toilet paper, but I think you know the kind of radical weenie I'm referring to. However, I do know of a guy who was trying to burn his TP and he started a fire. Luckily they got it out before it burned over a couple of acres. I just bury mine. I figure that a couple good rains and it'll be gone.

Do any of you guys use your stove to wash dishes? I use sand to scrub them clean of anything visible, then I singe them with the stove to kill the beasts. (I don't recommend the method with plastic.) So far no gut bugs have got me.

I know you were, but there was MUCH more truth to what you wrote than you might have realized. Kookiness knows no bounds.

I'm personally waiting to get another cold weather stove until a paradigm shift in white gas technology occurs.
I've used a Whisperlite plenty and they aren't useless, but they leave so much to be desired. I've had mixed results with canister stoves in the cold. Used them down to the teens with success, and also had them not fire at 30 degrees with "bag warmed" canisters in both cases.
Warm weather I still kinda dig the JetBoil, with an edge to the Snow Peak Giga's for low CO output (and weight...until you start talking about Ti vs. aluminum pot heat transfer, JB heat efficiecy, etc.---then things start getting complicated).
Barring technological advances, next fall/winter's cold weather system will consist of my MSR Wind Pro, canister inverted in sub freezing conditions.

There are a lot of folks who DO pack out their toilet paper and several books on backpacking tell you that you should. So as you said, there is MUCH truth in what he said.

Some areas of Federal Land require packing out your poop...

You guys might have to change your thread title

Nothing like defication talk to hijack a thread.

This was an accidental hijack. I referred to the poop packing yuppies who use disposable, polluting canisters and things took a 'crappy' turn.

Well it was SH&^Y thing for you to do.

Ok, I orderd a Coleman 502 on Ebay today. Now I know some of you will probably scratch your heads and say WTF that is too heavy for backpacking. But I have been thinking about this a great deal. Other white gas stoves like the MSR Whisperlites,etc are the stove without a tank and when you add a tank of fuel to their weight, it can't be that much more than the Coleman. I have also read that the MSR and other modern white gas stoves are finicky, while the Coleman is incredibly reliable and durable. Given these things and the price difference, I figured if the Coleman really turns out to be a pain, I can sell it for what I paid for it. Keep in mind when I go hunt, I don't need to backpack in more than a mile or so, so weight isn't quite as critical as it is for you western elk hunters. I also can't backpack in too far when I take my kids along on a backpacking trip.

A coleman 502 is 2 pounds 7oz. a whisperlight is 11.5 oz. The MSR bottle for whisper light is 5oz (20oz bottle). So you looking about a pound and a half more on the coleman.

Most peoples problems with MSR stoves is not keeping them cleaned. They are so simple all you need to do is keep the jet and fuel lines clean of soot. I used to fix stoves daily when I was a shop monkey. People would return them saying they didn't work right. Clean them out and they fire right up. Most people just think they are maintenance free.

Now on the cool factor the 502 wins. I remember my dad taking one camping when we were like 4 or 5. Pretty neat little stove just a bit bulky for my backpacking needs. Either way sounds like you got what you need and thats what matters.

Great choice if you ask me, some old pards ran those and they were simple and reliable! Another good one might be the Svea 123.

MtnHtr

Well, it should do me for the next few trips. I think I may get a pocket rocket for warmer weather trips and may invest in another less cumbersome white gas stove down the road. Let's hope this one works without too much fuss. It is from the early 1980s.

I bet it works well for you. If not coleman still makes spare parts for it.

I've purchased half a dozen or more "broken" whisperlites from REI scratch and dent sales and pieced together 4 or 5 working stoves for maybe $30 total--like Kenai said, one of them I just had to be cleaned. I gave away all but one as gifts, as they make a nice "back of the truck" stove if canister stoves are more your speed.

This little dude only weights 23oz, and is basically a scaled-down version of the 502.
http://www.rei.com/product/671668

It packs down nicely, and my only complaint are the sharp corners on pot supports which I could round off a little if I got motivated.

The Svea is one of the old timers but it's still one of the best. I'm wondering, though, why they've never made one easy improvement. It's too easy to tip over. Compare it to the one that 222Rem just posted. The Coleman has those little foldout legs that can prevent some nasty accidents.
Does anyone know of an aftermarket base for the Svea to prevent tipovers? I've thought about trying to rig one out of some heavy wire. Someday.

Rock Chuck:

Sorry no ideas for legs on a SVEA 123. I've stopped using mine because cannister stoves weigh less and are more convenient in the summer, and white gas pump stoves work better in the cold.

But I still think the SVEA 123 is maybe the most elegant stove around. It's a work of art when polished up.

The Coleman Exponent stove that you included in your post is a direct descendant of the original aluminum cylinder stove that Coleman built for use by G.I.s during WWII. All that's missing is the pots that twist together and are just the right size to hold the stove.

KC

Here's another one that works very well, although it's a bit heavy because of the propane cyl. Someone gave me two of these. I've used them and they do a good job heating although, like other cyl types, they're not so good in real cold weather.

Rock Chuck:

I have a single-burner propane stove similar to that. I use it to augment my Coleman two-burner "suitcase" stove when I need a third burner. They're very reliable and simple to operate. That design is a little too tall for my liking. Feels like it might be knocked over easily. I can't comment on how they work in real cold weather as I'm usually in a wall tent when base camping.

KC

There is another version of Coleman Exponent stove, this one is a bit lighter and has pretty good reviews: Coleman Exponent Multi Fuel Stove



MtnHtr

I have seen the Coleman Exponent at Campmor's store (highly recommend going their if any of you are ever out in NJ.) I thought the 502 would be around the same size, as I have never seen one. After seeing a video on youtube with them sitting next to one another and I realize the 502 is much bigger. Well, I'll see how practical it is on some upcomming trips. I have pretty much obtained all my gear through stuff I had, or cheap surplus stuff like this and my Alice pack. With a young family and mortgage, the more expensive gear will have to wait.

The little Feather 442 is quite a bit smaller than the 502. If all else fails, you could keep the 502 for car camping and power outages, and watch for a 442 on sale.

Here's one shipped for $60.
http://www.sunnysports.com/prod/CMNEF4.html?ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=CMNEF4

Or you can bid/make offer on this one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/PEAK-FEATHER-44...tZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19bb58fc8f

If you stick with the larger 16 oz bottle and use the plastic base, they're fairly stable, but not as much as a shorter stove, of course. The smaller tall bottles can go over easily, though. The larger ones are also less prone to freezing up because they have less surface area.
I'm not inclined to pack either size around in a pack, though. They're pretty good for goat, llama, etc. packing when an extra pound won't hurt.

The sucker started right up.

thanks for the thread sure have learned a thing or two.

Found this other forum. It is dedicated to classic camp stoves from all over the world:

http://www.spiritburner.com/fusion/index.php

I found that site too, and was afraid it would tempt me to start colllecting stoves. Or should I say more stoves.

I know exactly what you mean. I have a very big affinity for the best of older technology, from tube radio and tube hi-fi, to old battle riffles and now perhaps camp stoves. Danger Will Robinson, danger.