I was recently on another forum where this question was brought up. I thought it was a good question, but mostly jokes were made. Just looking for some opinions.

For me, none of the above, short handy rifle, either my .45/70 or my son's .44 mag trapper. YMMV

You talkin Okie bears or Ak bears???

Seriously, I don't think a handgun will be much good at stopping a charge unless it's a real big one (AND) you are really good with it (AND) really lucky to boot. I s'pose if a bear was trying to drag you out of your tent then a HG might be helpful. Sleep with your feet near the door so he grabs your feet first, then don't shoot your foot.

Actually, I like the 45-70 suggestion because a bazooka is too big to backpack.

JimF

My thought is, if a bear is close enough for pepper spray to be effective, then I want to be launching lead not hot sauce.

I pack a .480, with a handload that pushes a 460 gr hard cast to 1050 fps. I'm fully aware of the limitations of a handgun, but I also realize it is better than being unarmed, and there are lots of places I won't be carrying a rifle.

Good recipie......that just leaves the lucky part to worry about then..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JimF

Jim
I've seen the man shoot that handgun... Wouldn't want to be a thang... I've seen people that could not do what he does... with a rifle...
art

Art,

You happened to be at the range on a day I was shooing pretty well <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Remove the scope, have me fire it offhand, and at a moving target, and the equation suddenly changes. Worse yet is lack of practice, and a handgun requires frequent practice to be mastered. That is the longer version of understanding the limitations of a handgun. I have no doubt that big heavy slug will kill a bear every time if properly placed, I just don't know for sure on the accurate placement thing.

I think one things folks who recomend pepper spray is, it also requires accurate placement, and wind conditions can also make it less effective, or worse yet incapacitate the user. I also wonder how many folks that carry pepper spray ever buy an extra can to practice using it?

I always tell them to carry a bag of pixie dust to sprinkle for varifying wind direction before spraying. Heel tapping might help more than the spray, too.

Been said before but it bears repeating (pun intended)

Having a rifle makes you no more a rifleman than having a piano in the house makes you a pianist!

Reckon that would go least 'bout double on the handgun scenario. Just cause I don't feel adequately armed with a handgun doesn't make 458 Lott or others who are very proficient with said tool inadequately armed. But part of my mispent youth I dabbled in competitive handgun shooting and while maybe not a slouch I just like "my" odds better with a rifle.

Having enjoyed the excitement of having a bear in camp (when I was in camp trying to sleep) 4 different times at 4 different locations (twice when backpack hunting by myself), I recommend:

1) keep your food/meat pole separate from where you sleep. surround it with empty cans or other noisey objects, have a clear line-of-fire to where your food is and keep a bright light and loaded rifle handy.

2) keep a loaded pistol with you at night (.40, .45, or .44 mag)

3) keep a air horn (like they use in sailboat races), and bear spray handy.

4) if weight permits surround your camp with at least one strand of aluminum wire, an electric fence charger, and a battery.

or

5) take the attitude that if the bear kills me, he/she wins. if I kill the bear I win. If we both die, then at least I broke even!

1 and 5 are basically what I use nowadays.

One more thought, in Colorado, you are only allowed to kill a predator (if not licensed for it), if you or another human are in danger of your life or serious injury, or if it is attacking livestock. So if a bear is stealing your elk, killing your dog, or destroying your ATV, you are not legally allowed to kill it.

Weird world, huh?

Wait a minute buff, I've had my share of problem bears too and while it depends on where in AK I am about rule 1, I get, rule 5.

But if anyone or anything is stealing my elk (called moose here), killing my dog or destroying my property they are going to get chased off and or an azz whupping, if they decide to escalate that to lethal force, rather than running, I too must resort to lethal force. That seems to be to the letter of the law to me. Am I missing something? Certainly it can escalate quickly and I'm prepared for that. But the same would hold true for a human trying to do me wrong, wouldn't it?

My older brother was charged by a crazed griz. during the Valdez oil spill clean up . He pulled out an issued can of pepper spray and gave it a blast but, the wind blew it right back in his own face . Stumbleing backwards blinded he yelled to the guy that was with him ( who was armed with a 12 gauge ) to shoot . The man , named Roger , had never fired a gun before . He fires one shot , then yells " The gun is jambed , RUN " , They both stumble down the mountain ( They had been sent up the hill to see if they could find a bold eagle that was spotted covered in oil ) The bear is haveing a huge s&%@ fit behind them , but not comeing . They return with fish and game , to find the griz dead , in a big circle of torn up alders . That one shot , had split the bears lower lip, and into it's guts . the bear had been eating oil covered birds and seals . One shot Roger , saved my brothers life , where pepper spray failed . Might just as well as peed in the wind !!

I have NOT killed a bear or been charged by one. Have had two come near camp at night. (bright moon lots of snow around, easy to see the little black balls romping around.) Even the little guys get your attention. Have had cats harassing horses. Too dark to get a shot off.
One trip into Denali will get your attention regarding bears. No trees for miles and lots of bears. I would not want to be close enough to a bear to use pepper spray. Some of those campgrounds on the road that runs through the park look like invitations for bears to come and check out the scraps. Firearms are not allowed. I thought the 3500lb rental car was about the safest place in the park. People were actually sneaking up on the bears to photograph them. A ranger finally showed up and chewed them out. The goofballs had no clue how close to dying they were. Airhorn would be a better bet if you had no other choice. Bears can cover a lot of ground quickly if they are annoyed enough with you.
My friends in Fairbanks carry rifles when they are fishing or birdhunting.
Been paralleling Lewis and Clark (two hundred year anniversary) and the animal that had their greatest respect was the grizzly bear. They are portaging 20miles around the Great Falls right now and Lewis has forbidden anyone to leave camp alone because of the number of grizzlies in the area. When they first ran into the big brownies they quickly "satisfied their curiosity" after realizing just how tough these bears were. The men eventually realized that the bears would charge in a straight line and if they set themselves up in a line they could each shoot and fall back to the side as the bear charged.
Long winded way to say, "no thanks" to the pepper spray crowd. Half a mile is close enough for me even with binoculars and a telephoto lens on my camera. Only reason I want to be closer is if I have a bear tag and 250gr or bigger bullet in the rifle.
Oh yeah, got an opinion on a pistol, too. Better than nothing, but the best pistol would not be as good as a 30-30. I certainly wouldn't trust myself to put a bear down at pistol range while under a charge.
Some of you Alaska guys might remember a couple that owned a photography shop in Anchorage. Great people. The wife was a salty old gal when I met her twenty years ago. In addition to owning the shop they had jade mines above the Arctic Circle and they made movies about Alaska for schools. Lots of time in the bush. She had many stories about bears. They carried .44 magnum six shooters or .45 Long Colts and felt they were adequate for black bears. She said the black bears would run up to you like a dog and try to bite. The pistols would put them down. Brown bears were a different story. Their advice was don't make the brown bear ackknowledge your presence. For the most part wouldn't bother you if it didn't feel territorially threatened. If it did, you better watch out. She unloaded all six of her .44mag rounds into a brownie in camp once and didn't phase it. Someone else shot the same bear later and it had six holes in it. Rifle please! was their opinion for brownies.

link to an old thread on another forum...a 1st hand bear spray experience.
http://forums.kifaru.net/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000552

I just make sure my hunting partner is a little slower than I am.

homerdave knows that's not an option for me (slower partner) grinning here. My pard is one of the fastest critters on two legs I've ever seen. When we were all guiding together it was fairly common if we had someone antsy that didn't want to sit and glass, we'd send em on a "hike with Mike" they became a big fan of sitting and glassing after one of those adventures. The dude can travel, specially uphill, to give you some perspective, I took a 24 year old kid on a sheep hunt last year that had just got out of the service here. He couldn't keep up at all, and told plenty of people about how that old man could just walk off and leave him. It's just as bad when I hunt with my ole companero Oz, flat ground maybe if he's not excited, uphill fuggedaboutit.

When my son was 6, my mother decided that he needed to see Glacier National Park. After supper (we were staying at a hotel) she just had to go for a walk around the lake. My wife has foot problems and was excused from the expedition. I jokingly told Mom that if a bear showed up, I was going to knock her to the ground, grab Larry, and run. She, in all seriousness, thought that it sounded like a good plan.

I bet she did! But grannies can be cagey, she prolly had her eye on a stick to whop you with the whole time, whereupon she'd snatch up her grandbaby and do the shuffle! (grin)

My 2 cents I would think marlin in 450 would do ok also
or a short barreled lever in a 500 S&W would do a number
also Cheers northcountry

I agree with 458 lott on bear spray.I had a young grizzly claim an elk I shot and bear spray wasn't a big thing then,you couldn't hardly find it.The game wardens said the bear was sprayed with bear spray and shot with rubber buckshot for raiding tents with food in them.It didn't stop him for a moment and the game wardens were trying to locate him to relocate to deeper woods.Pulling a trigger on a hand gun would be the last resort,flight over fight unless it comes to fight.All I have at the moment is a few 44 mags with 300 gr hard cast bullets,that will have to do.DropShot

Taking a yappy little dog with you would probably be a good idea. You'll at least be awake before Yogi gets to your tent, have your flashlight turned on, and have a round in the chamber. Plus the bear will probably eat the dog for an appetizer, giving you that much more time.

Back when Missouri had bears, a man was startled by a bear one Sunday morning and ran all the way to Church. He was nervous when services were over, so the minister advised him to pray.

Halfway home, he met the bear again and the chase began. Seeing he was losing ground, he dropped to his knees and prayed that the bear would become a christian.

It worked. The bear dropped to his knees beside him and started saying grace.

I like that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Can't remember where I read it - but I know I read it.

In a study of almost 100 grizzly bear charges - the guys who were defending themselves with a pistol were injured by the bear almost 50% of the time.

There were only three "failures" of people using EPA approved Bear spray's (and the EPA part was very important in the study - many non-approved sprays failed) and in each case the people shooting the spray were only slightly injured - more from the momentum of the bear, than anything. It was thought that they waited too long with bears that coming at too high a speed to stop fast enough.

In a new televised special the other week - they shot bear spray (with wild bears - while filming) that were deemed "predatory" (wanting to eat the human) and in each case with these very motivated bears - bears that could not be dissuaded by any normal means - when hit with the spray they swapped ends so fast, that you could hardly hear the "P" from the "Psssssssst" of the spray - then all you could see was a glimpse of their respective asses - as they vanished into the woods at high speeds.

I think the use of guns is more of a "macho" thing - than the "best" thing.

I've been charged by one bear (and bluff-charged by a few more) and was only forced to stop that one bear with deadly force.

It was two years ago, and occured while I was walking up a trail on a ridge above a corn-field behind my house that often contains twenty or more bears just prior to the corn being harvested.

As I walked up the steep trail, I glanced above me to see a bear about 20 yards away, with it's feet up on a log staring me down. The way it was looking at me was wrong. The body language was all wrong. It showed no fear.

As I started to unsling my Browning Stainless A Bolt 7mmSTW (a modified wildcat) - the bear charged - at full speed and with its ears back.

I shot, and it rolled down a ravine and crashed around a bit. With shaking hands I re-loaded, and then after waiting a minute or two to compose myself, went to look over the ridge.

The sight I saw almost sickened me.

There lay the bear - with three young cubs standing on and around it - and bawling. Next I did what I thought was right under the circumstances - I shot all three cubs - and went home feeling really sick and saddened.

I was packing bear spray - and if I lived my life over again - I wished I'd tried it. Perhaps I shouldn't second guess myself too much - as I'm still here, in one piece.

Going for the gun, as quickly as I did - was a practiced move - and at this point in my life - instinctive. But, I had bearspray on my belt - but my instinct to use my gun was much older and better developed from a lifetime of hunting and spending lots of time in the BC's woods. My "muscle-memory" didn't include a fast draw on the bear-spray holster.

It was one of the saddest day's in my hunting career.

Brian ..Your rifle saved your skin...that's why so many of your fellow hunters want to rely on lead instead of foo-foo spray

BCB;

Critters, all critters, including humans, are born to be food for something else. Those three cubs were dead, they just didn't know it yet. Your 7mm bullet was a LOT faster than starvation, or ravens, or other bear, or wolves/coyotes. Simple fact, man, that 2 out of the 3 wouldn't make the year, and the other wouldn't have made 5 is a pretty much done deal.

The fact that Momma was coming no holds barred meant she was coming - pepper spray or not. She died, or you died. You didn't miss, so you got to live. Had you missed, she woulda lived. It's that simple.

Would I feel bad in your situation? Yeah, I would. But, then again, I'm human - and a hunter - I feel those things. Would it change my mind about how I felt (read above)? Not in the least.

Pepper is for food.

I find your study on the effectiveness of bear spray suspicious.
"Not EPA approved" failed often ? How come ? The guys using the pistols got hurt 50% of time time ? Again, why ? Not EPA approved pistols ?
I thought you Canadians couldn't carry handguns for self protection. Where did you get the statistics and by whom was the study done ?
I've got very little faith in pepper spray. It's nothing but a nicer MACE. Uses pepper instead of teat gas. I've seen lots of MACE failures as a cop. No way I'm going to put my faith in pepper spray. I'm quite familar with the problems of using a handgun under stress. It's a better than nothing and works much more often than you'd think given the difficulties of it's use. E

Hiking/Backpacking here in Grizzly country: Pepper Spray
Hunting in Grizzly country: rifle
Packing out meat in Grizzly country: Pepper Spray and 357 pistol with 180 LBT's

I am surprised that no one has developed a large predator Taser with long barbs and appropriate voltage.

just a thought

brian

It wasn't my study...just my reading. It was based on bear attacks all over North America - not just Canada.

In the old day's many "non-approved" bear spray's were little more than glorified human strength (re:cop) sprays, or dog (re: mailman) strength "bear" sprays.

They had a less than steller record against bears.

In contrast, EPA approved bear sprays have a very good record - you do the research and check it out - I already did, and I know what I read. I'm sorry I can't provide it now.

I like to carry a .22 rimfire BearCat when backpacking. My last trip into bear country the guys were giving me grief about it. One of them said, "If you shoot a bear with that thing you'll just make it mad". I looked him in the eye and said "I don't intend to shoot the bear. I'm going to use it to shoot you in the kneecap so I can out run you."

That ended the discussion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Last time I bought a pack pistol the smith asked me if I was intending to use if for bear protection. I said yea of course... He told me if that's that case I should take a file and cut down the front sight.

After figuring I heard him right I asked him why, so there's no chance of the gun hanging up coming out or something?

He said "No, no... that way when you pull that thing out of your arse it won't scratch so much.... That's where the bears' gonna put it."

I still bought it and would have used it if needed of last resort.
Spot

Before anybody writes off the idea of bear spray, I highly recommend you invest some money, get yourself a can and touch it off in the back yard. I'll bet a lot of people who own a can have never done that. They're expensive.

I once bought some for a hike in Glacier National Park (didn't need to use it) and a few years later couldn't resist the idea of a little "target practice." Not being a total dunce, I faced downwind and, dang, I was impressed. These things blow out a lot of spray and there was enough in that can to spray Momma Bear, Poppa Bear and all the baby bears, too.

Try it and see.

Pistol. Harder to get a picture to post if you only hit him with pepper spray.

I am an O.C. instructor, and I have used it in the field with mostly good results on people. That said, I have had to fight like the devil with men I have sprayed and found that they weren't affected for whatever reason. Fighting men is one thing, I imagine fighting a bear would have a greater chance of being one sided.

I believe the non-approved bear spray BCB was referring to was the stuff without chlorofluorocarbon That is a major product in bear spray that makes the OC effective. In Canada a few years ago it was banned so Counter Assault took their spray off the market. At that point Gary Shelton (bear expert in British Colombia, book "Bear Encounter Survival Guide" well worth reading) rated the other bear sprays on the market there as effective less than 50% of the time. My understanding is that he now considers it effective over 75% of the time. One of the things about OC spray is that MOST carry an expiration date. Pay attention if you plan on using it. Also most police officers were (originally not sure about now) taught to shake their pepper every day to keep it mixed before going on duty. It's easy to make blanket statements that a handgun is more effective than spray but I can tell you that I am also aware of many situations where even with a rifle that was not the case and someone still died. You might feel better with it but now that my son is going down to Montana to college where I won't be there when he goes out in the woods he will have his Ruger Redhawk with good hard cast bullets but he WILL have bear spray as well. I am a died in the wool believer in my firearms for protection but different situations call for different strategies and I want him to have any tool necessary to get himself out of a fix. Predatory bears approach people differently than territorial bears who are just trying to send you a message to back off. It is encumbant to learn as much as you can about bears and to beable to read them and understand how much danger you are in as you can even while going out in the woods.

How does it make the OC effective? It's just a propellant....no?

Deploying OC during a bear attack would require proper training. One would do well to follow IGBC recommendations on choosing a bear spray (concentration, distance, duration, size, pattern, raw material, etc.). Keep in mind that field tests are too few and too confounded. In addition, there is a lack of sufficient incidents and those that are recorded have contradictory results. One must hit eyes and nose and the spray must be highly aerosolized to be properly inhaled, even then it may not work. Also realize that tests have proven that brown bears are attracted to the OC resin for up to 5 days after spray application.

I train w/ and deploy OC in my profession (ballistic stream to fogger). I personally think there would be too many variables to recommend that someone carry OC to replace a firearm in the unlikely event of an aggressive bear.

Gary

The bear spray I touched off in the back yard gave me something wider than a stream and more narrowly focused than a fog. It was a few years ago, but I seem to recall the most substantial portion of the spray was about four or five feet wide at a point about where I imagined a bear would be by the time I popped the top on her.

Speaking for myself, I've never taken a shot at a bear with any kind of firearm, never mind a .44 magnum revolver. I own a .44 magnum. I handload for it. I shoot it at the range. I like it. But to be perfectly honest, I'm not that great a shot with a handgun. I'm not sure I can penetrate the brain or upper spinal column of a charging 800-lb bear with the single shot that I would likely have time for.

I'm pretty sure I could nail her in the face with a four-foot wide spray of OC, though. When I'm in bear country, I'm playing the odds based on what I know of my personal abilities. In my case, and I can only speak on my own behalf, my odds of survival in a bear attack favor the use of the biggest can of bear spray I can find.

Maybe both methods would get me killed, but that's why they call them odds.

DavidAk, from the context of my reply I think you can tell I was more or less quoting Shelton. So in no way assume I am an expert on bear spray. However from what I have read and what GaryVA refers to as "aerosolized" I think it is acutally "atomized" probably spelled wrong but the cfc is a very important part of putting out the OC in such a state as to acutally work properly or effectively. Without it you don't have much even for dogs.
Another thing I would like to add because there are alot of people with minimal experience with actually shooting something "big" with a 44Mag. A good 320 grain hard cast will shoot through both shoulders of a moose. A guide I was visting with yesterday related shooting lengthwize through a moose (almost 7 ft). Some of the loads available out of a 44 Mag or 45 Colt with Good Hardcasts can be devestating. Even if you do not kill a bear on the first shot you will most likely "turn" it. This will give you another shot from the side if you are on your game. I think (theory) the reason for that is most charges are actually warnings or messages from the bear and not actual full blown charge to kill you. That does happen but NOT OFTEN even taking into consideration all charges with and with out contact in a given year.
Also as you are aware that even though most people visualize the worst because bears to wicked things to our imagination so most every imagination thinking through the "what would I do" has a 1000 pound bear coming down on you. On mainland Ak I would have to say the "average" (if there is such a thing) griz weighs 400 pounds. Not that they can't kick your butt right now but in terms of what a bullet must stop that is important to remember. While there are 1000 pound brown bears on kodiak, afognak and a few other places they are still few and far between. So and especially with lower 48 black bears shooting with a good adequate handgun begins to put things more in perspective than what our imagination would lead us to believe. I want to add something and Phil Shoemaker has made this point very well in many threads, there is a lot going on in any bear confrontation, probably fewere than half involve a charge, much of it is huffing, bounding up and down on his front paws, slobbering, and they may even move on to the next phase which is more or less tuning side ways so you can see how big and fierce he is. These are all messages that if you are going to be in bear country it is incumbent on you to learn. And in some ways it is no different than learning to size up a dog that comes at you in the street while you are taking a walk. We have had more experience sizing up the dog but it is just as important to read the bear language. Having a gun may do nothing more than give you the courage to stand your ground and not run, or it can save your bacon if you end up on your back. Let's face it if you knew there was going to be a bear "incident" you wouln't have gone on the trip to begin with. You know that you really need a rifle, but since you are sure nothing is going to happen at least you have a handgun and maybe bear spray.
Regards

Check out Stephen Herrero's book titled "Bear Attacks" "Their Causes and Avoidance" "New Revised Edition" - it is well written, well researched, and contains many useful tips and it's a great read, to boot.

I USUALLY CARRY A 10" 445 DAN WESSON SUPER MAG LOADED WITH 310 GRAIN HARD CAST BULLETS,when handgun hunting, it will punch thru more than 30" of phone books, a 180 grain 30/06 punchs less than 20"
in side by side tests with a friends 7.5" 454 cassul the dan wesson penetates slightly deeper (by about a 1"-2")
now Im hoping Ill never need to use it in self defence but I have used it to kill several large hogs and its easily able to drop them with a single shot and leaves exit wounds from all angles so Im reasonable certain that I can annoy any large and furry visiters to a great extent by leaving large open passages thru their vital anatomy if forced

read this

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

or to put it another way,if your carrying a handgun VS spray for bear defence!!! you know how to tell for sure if your looking at bear crap in the woods?? it smells like cyane/red pepper or CN gas and has little chewed bells in it!

personally Id avoid getting in a face to face fight with a bear if I could , but if I had the advantage of a little distance im sure the 445 will work but your kidding yourself if you think the handgun is equal to a 45/70 or 450 marlin, 375H&H ,458 win ,ETC. if you go looking for a fight!

When we go backpacking, well usually on canoe trips cuz when I'm hunting we already have more then one high power, I bring my trusty Winchester Model 94 30-30. Its light weight, quick to reload, and although not the most powerful of rifles, I feel quite confident that any black bear that decides to get too agressive with me is going to be a dead one. Myself, I go by the one warning shot rule. I fire once in a safe direction towards but not at the bear and if he challenges me or comes back again after he has ran away, that will be the last mistake he ever makes. Speaking of mistakes, my dad and grandfather made one years ago while moose hunting. They gave a bear two chances, first they yelled and it ran away, then they shot over its head after it came back, then they went back into the camper after it ran away, minutes later the bear came back and proceded to rip the sheet metal off the side of the camper while they were in it. Neadless to say that bear was ushered into the afterlife via 7mm Remington Magnum from 10 feet in the dark of night only lit by a flashlight. Ever since then I have decide bears only get one chance. And as for the eating my hung animal, killing my dog, exc. they get no chances. Im sure no conservation officer in his right mind would charge you for killing a bear that was killing your dog. At least not in my neck of the woods. The best advice I can give is keep a tidey campsite, try not to leave things that might attract bears near the campsite.

The Avid Outdoorsman

The AP is running a story this morning out of Yellowstone National Park. Park Service officials say two men in their early fifties were hiking together near Shoshone Lake when they were attacked by a grizzly. The story doesn't say how the hikers were certain it was a grizzly and not a black bear, but one of the hikers spritzed the bear with a can of bear spray, whilst the bear was chewing on the hiker's leg.

The bear ran off.

You know, I read these stories about bears rolling around on bear spray residue and having a great old time, like it was a supper condiment and not a weapon. And that's why bear spray can't possibly work very well. But try this as an experiment. Sprinkle some ground black pepper on a bit of baked potato, and eat that. Taste's good, doesn't it? Now get your wife to take a little pinch of that same ground pepper and sprinkle it into your eyeballs, while at the same time, one of your kids is blowing some through a straw right up your nose. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(Disclosure: I have never personally shot anything at any bear except a few, well-chosen four-letter words in an angry tone of voice one time on a hike. It worked, and I didn't have to take it to the next level, which I was prepared to do, if necessary, but on the whole am glad it wasn't.)

Neither. Recent reports have been showing pepper spray failures and most people don't shoot handguns accurately when under stress. For protection against bears, and that includes Black Bears, give me a rifle of suitable bore/caliber every time. Lawdog
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I would pack both. I have heard all the jokes on bear spray, from people applying it like bug dope to bears using it to mask the human taste of your carcass while eating you.

I have personally experienced a bit of bear spray when the wind changed after I sprayed a test shot. If you have any doubts about the effectiveness of (EPA) bear spray, just walk into a cloud of it. The advantage to bear spray is it doesn't enrage the bear like wounding it with a gun would. It simply over whelms the bears senses and gets its focus off of you and onto its eyes, nose and lungs. For what a can weighs, I wouldn't be out in the bush without one. That said, I also would not substitute it for a good rifle/handgun, I like options and 2 is far better than 1. IMHO.

RO

In B.C. you can get a permit to pack a hand gun for bear defence in remote areas as part of your employment. We are just not allowed to hunt with them.

Yesterday morning, Friday, I encountered a large Black Bear near Goldbridge, B.C. while returning from a hunting trip. I stood and quietly talked to him and noticed a horrible scar on his upper right hip which I am pretty certain was made by a rifle bullet, very likely a .223 from a Mini-14, fired by one of the local "natural conservationists".

This was the largest Blackie by far of the approx. two dozen I have seen this year and I had a tag, but, he was so peaceful and busy eating Huckleberries that I just didn't want to kill him. I am very fond of bears and hate killing them, BUT, I would do so in a heartbeat at any sign of aggression and then would butcher him for myself and my Rottweilers.

Frankly, after many years experience with bears, I have absolutely no faith in any bearspray and most of my friends and former colleagues agree; these are guys withh 30-45 yrs. bush experience in B.C. each and among them have as much or more experience with bears as anyone on this planet. A handgun is better, if you can use it and I have one, but, cannot be bothered to get a carry permit as I am not really into handguns. Best of all is a good rifle that you are familiar with, an '.06 to .375 H&H with Nosler PTs. has been my choice for about 40 yrs. and thus I agree with Lawdog on this.

I think that the Guidegun concept is about the best idea here, but, I find my rifles of this type much harder to shoot than my CRF bolts and thus prefer an old Mod. 70, F.N. or Brno to anything else. Yesterday, I had one of my P-64 .338s with 250 NPs and think that this is pretty close to ideal for this purpose.....backpacks well and works on Elk, too.

I think I could get my rifle off my shoulder just as quick as a person could get a hand gun out of a holster so I would take my rifle over anything else.
Many bear confrontations occur at ranges which are relatively close. If a bear attacks at close range there is little time to do anything as they move so quick.

RiverOtter,



Just curious but why? Would like your reasons. Lawdog
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Lawdog,

I guess the only logical answer to that would be, so I have a non-lethal option at my disposal.

The scenario that comes to mind would be a curious black bear. It is not acting aggressive towards me nor stalking me, but is close enough that I can give it some negative feedback without killing it. I have no qualms about using my gun, and I have in the past, I just don't want to kill a bear that I feel can be taught a lesson. Believe me, my gun would already be pointed at the bear before the spray was removed from my hip.

RO

The reason I asked is you are only going to have time for either the spray or the gun, not both. Even under your scenario if the bear is close enough to use the spray and it has the opposite effect you are not going to have time to grab the firearm(rifle is better than a handgun) to defend your life. I would rather cover the bear with my rifle and if he crosses the line of no return I�m going to end it for him. Just something to think about from one that has had to do it. Lawdog
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That's a good point. When it all boils down, I would rather shoot a bear that may have ended up running away, than be killed by the one that I should have shot and didn't. A bear close enough to spray has already crossed the line anyway.

RO

What is the law in CO regarding shooting bears?

Bear Pepper Spray didn�t impress the Grizzly that attacked that teenage boy in Alaska last year. The counselors emptied [color:"red"]two large, full cans[/color] into the face of that Grizzly(at close range(less than 20 feet) without even slowing the bear down. They finally managed to chase the bear off by throwing rocks, sticks and blowing air horns. Yeah the attack was the boy�s fault for having some food in his tent but that doesn�t take away from the fact that two cans of Bear Pepper Spray didn�t effect the Grizzly at all. The boy most likely wouldn�t have been hurt as bad if the counselors would have had a suitable rifle in camp. Lawdog
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I completely agree, I very strongly recommend packing a light Freon horn when hiking, day or multi-day and using it whenever you enter a confined space where you cannot see a bear from a distance. These horns are very light and even with a spare Freon canister or two weigh less than a pound, pretty light and inexpensive insurance, IMO.

In areas where I think that a serious risk of attack exists, I carry a horn and use it as well as a rifle which I am familiar with. With over 60 Grizzly encounters, a couple as close as ten yards and I can't remember how many Black Bears, I have yet to have a problem. Making warning noises to let bears know that a human is around and being ready, willing and able to fight/kill works, period. I honestly would outlaw bearspray if I could, I consider it to be an inconsistent and thus dangerous product.

Thanks Kutenay. I always enjoy reading your posts. E

A couple of weeks ago while I was hunting bear in CO, I ran into a man who was attacked and had part of his leg eaten by a bear.

This fellow was doing some scouting a week before archery season and bumped into a bear at about 6 feet. The bear immediately charged. It moved so fast that he said he couldn't even start to raise his rifle. They tussled around a bit, and then the guy managd to start climbing a tree. The bear latched onto the back of his left thigh and pulled off about 4 or 5 lbs of "meat". It swallowed about half of the meat and then started back up the tree. The guy kicked it hard on the snout with his good leg. The bear back down the tree, grabbed the rest of the "meat" and ran off.

The guy made it back to his tent, wrapped up his wounds best he could. Since it was getting late, he decided to try and wait for morning before attempting a 4-mile crawl down the drainage.

In the middle of the night, the bear came back and grabbed his foot and attempted to drag him out of the tent. Screaming and kicking, he fired a shot at the bear, but high so he wouldn't shoot his own foot off. The bear let go and took off again.

The next morning he managed to drag himself far enough down the trail to where a lady sitting on the porch of a ranch house saw him. According to him, he was just about gone at this time. They got him to a hospital where he stayed for almost a month.

The day after he crawled down the trail, some of his buddies went up to get his gear and rifle (he had to leave it on the trail in order to make the crawl). They found where the bear had went back to his camp, trashed the place looking for food, and then started trailing the guy down the mountain. No doubt if the guy hadn't made it down in time, the bear would have finished him off.

It took a couple of years of rehab, before the guy could walk without a cane. He left CO for a few years and then decided to come back and resume hunting. He believes a pistol is the best choice for bear protection, because it's too easy to lose your rifle in a surprise attack, but you can get a holstered pistol out and still be shooting when the bear is on you.

He never hunts by himself anymore, but he still hunts.

BTW This guy (according to him) has killed 38 elk in 44 years of hunting that drainage. Most of those have been killed with a bow, so he is certainly not a novice.

All of you bear spray proponents answer me this...I have a 5" S&W Mod 29 DX in my right hand, loaded with CorBon 300 grainers. I have a can of the very best bear spray on the face of this earth in my left. Which is your preference to be shot with? Kinda resolves the question does it not?

D-S

The hard part of that scenario now is getting the elk to bait a bear.

Glad to see you over here. Thicken your skin, however.

So how old is "old Mike"?

Mike will be 51 or 52 in June, CRS here, I gave him a guide gun in .45/70 for his b-day so I'm thinking maybe he's 52 this year.


in SC as we speak having a hip resurfaced. it got yanked outa socket when he was 19 and now 30 some odd years later or so after I don't know how many miles walkin the country often with a full backpack full of meat for lots of those miles and pounding pavement in an airplane hanger for just as long, his hip gave out on him. Couple of years ago his boy took his first moose and I did all the packing to save his hip and ankle.



but the dude was a freakin animal Barkoff, I'd have placed big dinero on him in the uphill Olympics.


in his early 40's he had some chest pain and went in to do a stress test on the treadmill. When he got up to 200 beats per minute heartrate, he told the docs he wouldn't be able to keep up that pace all day. They figured about then his heart wasn't causing the pain.


we used to use heart rate monitors to train going steep uphill with fairly heavy loads say around 90 lbs., about 176 bpm or so I'd have to back off so I could breathe and walk. He regularly would hit 192 beats and just keep trucking.

our legs are about the same length though he has a slightly longer stride.

but the guy had heart, still does, if he gets this hip lined out, expect to hear I died of a heart attack somewhere out in the bush trying not to lose sight of his azz.


it's a view I've had often hunting with him.

but we've had some danged grand adventures together, lots of fun times and sat the hard seat a time or two.

he's good company and a man to ride the river with.

I've been fortunate to call him friend for bout 30 years now.


oh and that dog CAN hunt

That's what it's all about.

I like the idea of a pistol with a lanyard string attached to you.

A question and answer about bear spray on the "Backpacker" web site states:

Does it work? In laboratory conditions, every time. Out in the wild, sprays vary in their effectiveness. In 20 well-documented cases of spray being used on grizzlies, the bears were stopped by the spray. But three of the bears came back later and attacked. In 26 cases of spray vs. black bears, six of the bears returned, but none attacked. There are probably no more than about 70 known times spray was used against bears in the field. That's not many to base a sure answer on. But it looks like bear spray probably works most of the time when used according to the manufacturers' instructions.

To me that doesn't sound like there is really much evidence to base anything on!

Phil

This thread is nothing, if not entertaining.

I have VERY limited experience in real bear country. I have only seen one grizzly in my life while in the field. Passed about 50 yards in front of our hoarses. Gave us a look, and kept walking. The horses on the other hand nearly chite themselves...

With my VERY limited knowledge, my current approach is this.

Neither bear spray nor a pistol are going to stop a charging bear once he's made up his mind. The exception being that you're somehow able to put a solid into his CNS. Possible, but not probable.

Bear spray will likely detur a bear that is in your personal zone but hasn't yet committed to attack.

Being alert and careful will likely keep me out of a bear's personal zone.

I have yet to carry spray or a pistol, but always feel like I should. It is probably going to take a close call for me to come to my senses. When that does happen, a pistol will likely be the first thing I add. This would be for those times when I'm archery hunting and unable to carry a long gun.

Priceless quote -

Last time I bought a pack pistol the smith asked me if I was intending to use if for bear protection. I said yea of course... He told me if that's that case I should take a file and cut down the front sight.

After figuring I heard him right I asked him why, so there's no chance of the gun hanging up coming out or something?

He said "No, no... that way when you pull that thing out of your arse it won't scratch so much.... That's where the bears' gonna put it."

I still bought it and would have used it if needed of last resort.


LOL


Answer is - CARRY A BIG GUN - pistol or rifle no hot sauce........

While I can see carrying bear spray, if you wanted to, I'll never be without a gun. If I have a rifle, we still have a TI 44 mag. Sometimes the rifle isn't handy in situations.

I'd rather have the pistol than nothing. I'd rather fight than die.

While I certainly can feel bad about killing a sow and little ones, I won't loose much sleep at all. Different mentalities driven by liberal govt ideas IMHO.

Just a few thoughts.

Jeff

I'm with Jeff.

You never know if you brought bear spray to a gunfight in the remote areas where I hike.

I bring both.

Yeah, you're in my area, David. We have a few wackos up here in the northeastern part that like to keep their secrets. Onion Creek by the Canadian border has the drug traffickers and a few remote, and apparently at least one guarded pot growing facility that the DEA seems isn't worth the risk to go in after.