what amount of weight is considered "heavy" for a backpacking sleeping bag that will keep a person relatively warm.

In Key West? On the moon?

the title says "backpack hunting". Not much of that done on the moon or Key West.

On a hunting trip during the hunting season in most western mountain states.

I consider more then 2 lbs. heavy...

I would consider more than 2.5 lbs heavy, and personally wouldn't use a bag over 2-ish lbs.

Ditto.

Prefer under 2 lbs. and have a couple of ultra lights for early Fall.

You quilt guys

Uh, quilt? Seriously?

What temperature (lowest) would you expect to sleep in? Will you have a heated tent or cover? Is it going to be moist/wet alot where you will be. The Moon or Key West comment, though unnecssarily sarcastic, is noting that you need to establish such parameters.

You first need to have a bag that will keep you warm. Second is to reduce sweating. Third is actual physical weight.

Dan, you really need to get on the quilt bandwagon. I've taken my 30 degree wide EE quilt down to the high 20s comfortably. Weighs 19 oz. In the sea to summit event stuff sack and cost less then 2 bills. What's not to like?

Northern Rockies in November can get well below zero.. in those temps I'd not want your "quilt"... just saying.

I'd have no trouble running my 10 degree version of the same and still be well under 2 lbs.

Brad- Which 2 lb bag are you using that goes below zero?

WM Versalite. Simple with a bit of layering.

I resemble that remark.

I was a quilt guy in the mid-70's. Made my first one from Hollow-fill. Now I use mummy bags open like a quilt with a closed lower section at least 90% of the time, but I seldom sleep out in below zero F.

Years ago in -40 F I slept a few nights in a Snow Lion Polargard bag and don't think I zipped it fully closed. 'Course those things weighed 5 or 6 lbs.

-10 is a hell of a lot different than +10 I assure you.

If it has 6" of loft, and is filled with 850+ fill power down... What's the difference?

Only someone that hasn't btdt would ask that question.

Revealing... but not surprising.

You're right. I've never spent a 0 degree night in a 6" loft quilt. I HAVE slept in 0 degrees in my Badger one more than a few occasions.

Your arrogance and egotistical cock sucking knows no limits. Don't move out of Boz Angelas.

Brad

do you use any Schnees products (since they are right there where you live))?

22, we've just got some pacs we use. That's about it.

What kind of layering is required with that bag? I'm still leery here in the daks with a down bag. Were you schlepping one around here back in the day?

2 pounds is pushing things. I use a 3 + pound reidown bag and 4 pound wiggys to get through hunting season. Even in the heat of the summer I might be at 3500 feet and its 40 at night. During Sept hunting it pushes 0 at times. Also these 2 pound bags cost twice as much so I'll stick with the 3 pound . Options.

I have no trouble packing a 4lb Wiggys Ultra Light on all my hunting trips, backpack or not. I've been using the bag since around 05 and have never been cold in it. My next bag will be the Wiggy's Glacier Hunter which is rated to 15� and weighs in around 2.5-3lbs.

4 lbs or less doesn't bother the wife or I, rather be warm than not.. but will take less weight.

Being we are used to horrible heat all year, it takes a bit more for us to keep warm generally...

I am going 2 and a half pounds, the weight of my WM Antelope.

What is the over all weight u carry in ur pack?

I rarely measure. For a week I'm guessing 40-60 range. I went ultralight for the first couple of years and find myself drifting back to "normal" as I add some creature comforts back in.

Its kind of funny. Not here, but in other conversations, I hear people talking about their other equipment (heavy stuff) and then they wax poetic about their lightweight sleeping bags. They will carry a 9 pound rifle but will have to have a lightweight sleeping bag.

I now have the Kimber Montana Rifle (trying to figure out the lightest scope I can get away with) and will look seriously into a 2 to 2. pound bag.

Must be things a person can do at the campsite to help the light sleeping bag keep you warm.

I'm doing more and more backpacking after many years away. There is a big diff in the amount of bag required to keep you warm at 25 years old vs 50 years old. So far I've learned that a) I need a good night's sleep; b) I really don't want to spend twice as much for a bag that's 30% lighter; c) the extra 20 lbs around my midsection makes attempts to trim ounces in pack weight a little bit laughable.

The magic solution so far has been to limit my range and lower my expectations. And rest a lot. For a bag I use the Intermediate milsurp bag system with a light, medium and bivvy. That way I can often simply leave portions of the bag at home or in the truck.

Biathlon, thank for the note about EE quilts. That's not a bad price, and I like the synthetic one.

As usual, we have talked all over the map of temps and situations. One bag isn�t likely to do it all well. FWIW basis for my comments: I avoid deep cold as much as I can predict, go light and have bailed out early when the weather turned on me. But I have enough gear to confidently make it.

Every scrap of clothing and gear can help get you through a colder night than you anticipated.

Thinking back, I have slept at least 9 nights in a sleeping bag in -40 or colder without heated shelter. One in the open under stars, a few in a partly covered pick-up bed, a couple on a vehicle seat. In all of those I slept warm and comfortably, though one was marginal. Have slept considerably more camping nights between 0 to -30.

Nowadays if there is a horse or vehicle to carry it I take a second sleeping bag to put over the first if it gets really cold.

One thing I never skimp on is my sleeping bag. Weather forecast is at best a 70/30 proposition, but lets forget that part. Whenever you go into the wilderness for any and all recreational purposes always plan for the unexpected.

A few more ounces in a warm enough sleeping bag isn't going to make a difference. Being stuck up in the mountains in bad weather without the proper sleeping bag could make a huge difference.

I often wonder what the Native Americans of yesteryear did without fancy, high buck, sleeping bags.

They used fire, blankets, and shelter.

Indians used dogs to pack stuff around until they started using horses. I forget but I believe it wasn't till 1800's they started relying on horses.

For foot hunters weight is an issue. I just don't see why its such a big deal in a sleeping bag. Plenty of other non-essential places one can cut weight.

Horses beat Lewis & Clark to the plains. The Spaniards turned enough of them loose in the 1600's and they naturally made their way north.

Out of curiosity, what type thermometer do you guys use to record -30 and -40 degree lows while out in the woods?

I didn't say they were not there. I said they didn't start relying on them. At least from a few books I have read on the subject.

I don't measure temps. I match the bag to the location, time of year, and forecasted weather for the time I will be out there.

Ive back-pack hunted for elk in Colorado for decades, temps range from the 80F down to -20F on very rare occasions.
youll find early season archery ,far warmer than third rifle season up at 10,000 plus feet elevation.
now you should obviously consider what you NEED to stay reasonably comfortable under the likely conditions you'll see.
one of the most miserable nights I ever spent was the first night I camped in the California Warner wilderness, temps dropped to -5F
I had a SEARS sleeping bag rated for 10F and even wearing a parka and sweater inside the bag I felt like I was freezing to death,sleeping in the tent.
light weights great, but the object of having a sleeping bag is to allow you to stay at least semi-warm while you sleep.
now having a good insulating pad under the bag helps and having a pull over face mask to restrict heat loss from your head and face helps,but think thru your choices based on the likely conditions and don,t get mesmerized by light weight or low price alone, your life could depend on staying warm and dry.
down in the 600-800 loft range is effective and light weight, but if it gets soaked with water its nearly useless a roomy gortex outer bags helpful.
get a bag thats a bit too heavy or bulky its a P.I.T.A. to carry and pack, but you might prefer that over FREEZING TO DEATH with a soaking wet, useless 2 lb down bag if your forced, to use it because you got soaked , accidentally falling in some creek covered with ice,or caught hiking far from cover in a down pour in mid 30F temps where a good synthetic bag might provide far more warmth.

http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Sleep%20Gear/Sleeping%20Bags/

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Backpacking-Sleeping-Bag-Reviews


yeah Im sure Ill get flack over this but I found this bag and pad, and gore tex outer bag a decent choice, yeah, I generally use these only if I,m sure to see sub zero temps and the bag alone over a tarp works fine on most hunts but I keep the other two components in the truck along with a good pack frame and two man tent.

http://www.rei.com/product/828210/the-north-face-inferno-20-sleeping-bag#specsTab

http://www.mpgear.com/item/astroinsulated/Nemo-Equipment-Astro-Insulated-Sleeping-Pad/1.html

http://www.amazon.com/Military-Surplus-Bivy-Sleeping-Cover/dp/B00276IGM4

Understood. But some mention spending nights at -40. I'm just wondering what type thermometer they use to measure that.

Never took a thermometer so don't know most temps exactly. A couple of my -40 times I based camp temps on the neareast town. Nearest town in the CDN Rockies was Banff at -46 and we were higher elevation. In Wells Gray Park years ago the temps in Clearwater were -42 and we were a LOT higher elevation. On a recent bivy, a fellow in a new pick-up told me that his truck thermometer had shown -23 F at dawn that morning. I hadn't thought it was that cold while still hunting at dawn.

I tossed a cup of boiling water up at a 45 degree angle one of the cold times in the CDN Rockies. It made a muffled crackling sort of explosion and nothing came down to mark the unbroken snow. A small cloud drifted away and dispersed quickly. Not sure how cold that is but Jack London used that phenomenon as a measure of deep cold.

Comment on forecasts: They are virtually always for towns, in valleys. I look at them but like MontanaCreek Hunter I do not trust them to be accurate for the mountains where we usually go between towns. This Fall in Nov. the forecasts were laughably, dangerously way off from what actually happened. Forecast was for light snow for a half day turning to clear and cold for the rest of the week. It snowed a foot and a half then turned to rain and never stopped for the four days we toughed it out backpacking. It qualified as miserable.

When backpack hunting in early to mid Fall and carrying all my gear with intent to bivvy where night finds me, bulk bothers me more than the weight of a sleeping bag.

Okay, I see. I remember a Jack London's short story (To Build A Fire?) Where a guy in the Yukon steps through ice and tries to build a fire, fails and dies. Anyway, he's measuring the temperature by his spit crackling and freezing in the air before hitting the ground.

Just wondered if there was a thermometer you used. Heck, I'd like to find a decent thermometer to take with me. Most are junk used as zipper pulls etc and at best, inaccurate. Never even seen one that will measure below zero.

-40� doesn't even compute for a guy from the South. Down in the teens is about the best we can pull off with the occasional single digit and rare minus single digit. Chill factors with humidity, on the other hand...

Fact is, much below low 20�'s and I have little interest in being out anyway, at least not sleeping out.

Understood the mountain forecasts. Very difficult at best and pretty unreliable at times, even here. Could be sunny in one spot and 25� colder with snow 20 miles away. I've seen a temperature variance of over 20� less than a mile from my house with a 600 foot elevation change. That's in the Appalachians, I know in the Rockies it's even more dramatic.

I agree 100% with the bulk comment. That's my big complaint with a heavier bag. Don't mind the weight, it's the basketball in my pack that is irritating.

This year I'm upgrading my pack to a Paradox. Next big(expensive) gear upgrade will be a bag.

I often see 15 to 20 degree differences within a half mile of my house. I'm in the cold valley. Come November I err on the side of to much sleeping bag, unless I know I have buddies willing to share stove stoking duty all night

I use an old Taylor Pocket Thermometer on every trip I go on, year round. It measures to -40F. It stores in an aluminum tube.

Sadly, I recently broke it and am now looking for a replacement.

Ditto on little interest in sleeping out in such cold. Avoid it when I can. I cut short a whitetail rattling trip in late Nov. due to guesstimated somewhere below -10F and my hands cracking painfully in the cold. My grandson demoed that the rib cage on a skinned frozen whitetail rings like a dull bell when whacked with metal.

Somewhere around -30 and lower it feels more like pain than cold to me. In -40 and lower many materials change their properties, some getting brittle, some stronger, oil lubrication properties change I'm told. The old ensolite foam pads shatter with a pattern like a rock hitting a windshield. On one of the trips I rated at -40 my 15 year old son had frozen patches on his nose and cheek in the time it took to walk 50 feet from a heated vehicle. Time to go home.

^^^THIS^^^

Lost a buddy a couple years back. Almost lost two:
Fly-in goat hunt. Plane leaves. Weather moves in.
One buddy slides / falls to his death. The other hunkers down, alerts rescue. Took four days for the PJ's, yes, the Pararescue PJ's, to get to him. Hurricane weather with sideways rain. EVERYTHING SOAKED. Temp in high 30's, low 40's.

Only reason he walked away was enough sleeping bag of proper (not feathered) construction.

The weight and construction of your sleeping bag matters the farther you are from your truck.

Down will work perfectly well in any condition, as I've proven to my own satisfaction a 1000 times.

Nothing wrong with synthetics (I've owned many), but down is far friendlier to a backpacker/climber weight and compression-wise.

Flying into a basecamp and daytriping isn't the same thing.

Only someone that hasn't btdt would make that statement.

Revealing... but not surprising.

Only a moron can't keep down dry.

Spoken like a man who lives in a location with "up to 24 inches of precipitation annually".

It'd be difficult to get anything other than dry there, but that's hardly "any condition".

You ever waded a braided/glacial stream with current so fast that rocks the size of grapefruit rolling along the bottom, that you, of course, can't see for the rock flour?

I didn't always live here... have ridden out 100+ mph winds at timeberline in a tent in full-on hurricane conditions for 3+ days and kept a down bag dry... and numerous other occasions. 4 Seasons. Including in Alaska.

Ignorance is bliss apparently

If you're going to encounter wet conditions and don't stuff a down bag in a garbage bag inside its stuff sack, you're likely government trained (ie, a moron)

you guys are making me laugh so hard I have tears,if youve hunted enough youve experienced wet equipment, and yes even when packed in heavy trash bags inside a pack! I can remember guys falling into streams ,wading streams and falling, guys getting soaked too the skin in rain squalls , condensation dripping from tent ceilings,even packed canteens or leaking soft drink cans,leaking into equipment, ice and snow melting on equipment.
camp and hunt long enough and your see stuff happens!

Yeah, all those idiots hauling down bags up Everest for the last 60+ years... if they'd only had a Wiggy's.

Love it!

Sleeping bags so encapsulated also float like a cork, a theory I have proven.

A question I've mulled is not only whether it is possible to keep a down bag dry, but how much effort are we willing to expend doing it? Our primary goal is to hunt, not merely to keep the bag dry. A close second question is how much margin for error does it leave us if I find myself a moron with a wet bag?

We can all offer scenarios. This fall I started a hunt in light rain, bivvied in it, and hiked up six miles of switchbacks on day two in falling snow. Camped the second night in 8 inches of snow which piled to 16 inches in the open on the third day. Then it started raining and was still raining when I drove home from the trailhead after dark on day five. It had been alternating rain and snow almost constantly for a month. Humidity was 100%. Tree rain and falling snow were much worse than rain or snow in the open. My previous time in those conditions high winds were blasting soppy falling snow into every crevice and swirling mist into every pore and loft of anything outside of a sealed plastic bag. In our small shelter it was impossible to come in out of the rain/snow and not bring considerable water into the shelter.

How much effort I.e. how big and heavy a shelter are we willing to carry to keep the sleeping bag dry?

I have also proven more than once that a wet synthetic bag provides insulating warmth even when wet through, especially if you like saunas. Should you be blessed with wonderful solid freezing temps, you can then crack the ice out of the inside of the sleeping bag. btdt

I still owe you a moose, Brad, and enjoy your pictorials. To each his own but in my coastal hunt conditions a down bag is not worth the effort and risk of its admittedly lighter starting weight. We on the moron end of the spectrum need some margins for when things do not go as planned.

Everest is cold, which equals DRY during climbing season. Precipitation up high is snow, which means it is not soaking into things. I don't know for sure but I'll bet Everest climbers would fear rain at high elevation almost as much as high wind. IME cold is easier to manage than wet.

P-A-C-E Primary, Alternate, Contingency, Emergency or rather some of that "moronic" military schidt.

I own two FF down bags and a JRB down quilt to go with my synthetic stuff. If I'm ever fortunate enough for a pilot to drop me off on an Alaskan beach again, I'll have a synthetic bag.

I live on Kodiak in the wet, wet Gulf of Alaska and spent almost 60 days in the field this past year using nothing but a down bag. I've used a down bag for years, and have even gotten it wet. I've actually been pleasantly surprised at how well they do work when wet. Basically it takes a lot to get them totally soaked, and until they get TOTALLY soaked they do dry out, and do it pretty quickly.

Once on an elk hunt In a floorless shelter without a bivy bag (don't ask why I made that dumb mistake) it rained/snowed for three days and I was getting worried about my bag - I'd say it got about 10 to 15 percent heavier. Pretty wet anyway, but I still stayed warm at night with temperatures in the upper 20s low 30s. It is a Marmot Helium bag.

I just use a stuff sack and generally keep it in a breathable bivy bag inside the bivy. Every morning I take it out of the bivy and press the air out of both and then stuff it right away back into the stuff sack. Once you get out of the bag the warm air condensates and drops its water - so you want to get that warm air out of the bag.

Anyway, I don't see anything drastic or scary about using a down bag in a wet environment. I've been doing it for 15 years or so in a pretty wet place.

Patrick

Honestly curious, no flames. How many consecutive nights have you backpacked or bivvied on Kodiak in Fall without any heated shelter and without any hard roof, using a down bag? Am wondering how long a down bag will retain loft in high humidity and relentlessly wet conditions. Backpack nights in elk country does not count unless it is Roosevelts on the West End of the Olympic Penninsula!

Good tip on getting the warm air out before moisture condenses. That will reduce the amount of condensation. Have done that but am also reluctant to stuff a bag with any trace of dampness in it, though we have to sometimes, then dry it at home.

In September I did 14 consecutive days on Afognak, and it got VERY ugly. But we did have a heated shelter. Ti goat stove and tent. These days I almost always have a heated shelter, but it wasn't always so. I do remember once going on a hunt with only a bivy bag and it rained for 2 straight days and nights. I remember thinking that a third night was going to be an iffy proposition.

But to go back to the original idea of this thread. I actually don't use down bags because they are light. I use down because it packs so much smaller. Back when I used to use synthetic bags I remember that they practically filled up the whole backpack. And then you needed to get a new one every other year or so too because they lost their loft.

My helium is finally getting a bit worn out but it is around 10 years old.

Also our elk on Afognak are Roosevelt elk, and I bet it is a lot like the Olympic Peninsula. Old growth spruce forest, and it rains a lot.

Patrick

I agree down for me works most of the time. However, when I can afford to haul the extra bulk/eight of a synthetic I do.

2012 on my second of a back to back mountain goat hunt, my down bag started losing loft rather rapidily over two nights as it was typical Kodiak 40 degrees, 100% humidity and raining. I was in a floorless shelter and found myself thankful we had tagged out the last day and were coming off the mountain as the bag had half the loft of its formal self. Were wasn't much to burn up in the alpine so having a stove wouldn't have helped.

For me there is a time and place for both. But I'm flying out on a goat hunt here in 2 weeks down your way and I'm bringing the wiggy's to leave at base camp where the plane is dropping us off and down up the hill.

Its the wet temps in the 30s and 40s that make me want synthetic bags and with no option for back up or hike out like on a fly out hunt.

Of course the guys on Everest are taking down, its NOT a wet environment. That analogy is pretty ridiculous. One of my hiking partners has been to the summit the highest peak on all 7 continents and used down for all his climbs, yet he still brings a synthetic bag when he feels its justified.

BTW Patrick if you'll be around when I fly in from the field I'd love to buy you a cup of coffee and swap stories with ya. Still follow your family's blog! Good stuff sir!

pgsalton, thank you. Good info.

Ditto to Alaska Lanche.

Good luck on the goat!

Okan, I'll take the moose

It just isn't that difficult to keep a down bag dry. Synthetics have their place... they're less expensive (don't last as long) and require less attention, but they don't compress well and are heavier. That leaves them out of the equation for me, unless for a base-camp sort of bag.

My first decent synthetic bag was a Snow Lion I got in the mid 70's... saw me through a lot of sub-zero nights, but I'd never pack a synthetic on a bonafied backpack trip anymore given the choice, and I don't care where it is. I used the Snowlion when I couldn't afford a comparable down bag in my financially strapped youth for winter climbing.

This stuff just isn't that hard, but I believe so many people repeat so many things they have little or no experience with that it becomes some sort of gospel. I especially notice that here.

For down think decent tent and VBL in super wet/cold conditions.

Oh well.

Have you ever crawled out of a VBL at minus 20F?

Only an idiot would reccomend a VBL in conditions like Lanche described above.

Hey goober, never recommended a VBL in above freezing temps like Lanche described (may want to read more carefully if you're able). I said COLD, not +20*... that's not cold.

A VBL's forte is keeping body moisture out of the down layers during extended trips in sub zero temps, not above freezing temps in wet-cold. Yeah, I've used VBL's in -20F... that's what they're for.

What a maroon.

"Wet/cold" means 10-40F dickhead, or at least it does to us ignorant former arctic infantrymen.

Back to the sane that can read, like I said down has to be treated a bit more carefully. You can't just crawl in it night after night in wet clothes, or use it night after night in a single walled tent in continually wet conditions unless it's got a dryloft or equivelent shell (or Bivy cover). A double wall tent and dry night long undies are your friend there... a VBL is your friend in brutal cold if out for more than a few nights.

Like I said, not hard.

Not to me... to me it means humid sub zero. My post, my meaning.

Brad you are a phuuuking idiot. You don't even understand the concept of relative humidity, "humid sub-zero". What a dumbschidt.

BTW TAK, in all your gallivanting around the world killing people on every continent and in every conceivable situation, how is it you can't get a Kimber MT to shoot?

Internet Ninja Warrior for sure

Hey dumbass, ever been out all day in sub zero and come back to a tent soaking wet? Guess where all that humidity goes? In your tent. That's the wet I'm talking about... the real kind that too many bring into their bags through lack of care and zap the loft.

And BTW, even though air is below freezing it can hold some humidity.

"Your post, your rules" huh. You are a sad sorry excuse for a man. I've never uttered a word about "killing people" except for asking arrogant azzwipes from MT how many people they've killed. How many have you killed Brad?

Not basing it off of anything I've read, I never really had a problem with down before that exceptionally wet trip on Kodiak that everything including my clothing and myself was saturated in water. Climbing in with damp base layers in to a WM bag that was moisture on the shell of the bag due to the single wall tent meant the down was getting the moisture from both ends.

Yep probably should have hauled a double wall tent up the hill instead. But really at that point is a double wall tent with a down bag lighter than a single wall floorless with a synthetic bag. Lots of ways to skin a cat for sure. So long as you found what works for you based off of experience then thats all that really matters. I certainly believe you when you say you've never had a problem with down, but that hasn't been my experience, yes just that one time, but still happened. I know I'm certainly not as an experienced backpacker as you Brad and still have a lot to learn, but this is simply based on an observation while I was in the field. You have a different experience and that is totally cool.

I think we could both care less which type of bag either of us uses.

A lecture on bags from a guy that doesn't even know what a VBL is for is pretty funny.

it can hold lots of humidity.....-20 an 80% is phuggin miserable as hell......

Absolutely right.

Like I said I believe they both have their place. How one sees that place is all that differs. There are lots of ways to skin the cat.

Single wall floorless in your wet area... yeah, without a good shell or bivy cover, you're going to start wetting your bag (from the outside)

But I prefer to not soak any bag, synthetic or down. But the synthetic will keep you safer (warmer) if soaked, no doubt.

My only disagreement with the one guy here was that keeping a down bag dry in wet environments can't be done. It can. I've done it from the Kenai to Katahdin.

Yep it can be done, I have done it many times....however there are situations where its not the best option for me. But in those wet environments a single wall floorless likely isn't the best either, but I'll keep doing it

I'm glad you will never sleep in a syn bag again and jealous as down is more comfy IMO, but after losing loft in my down bag in just two wet nights I'm not going to make that mistake again.

I completely get it. You need to get a Gore-shelled down bag I used Goretex (not Dryloft) covered down bags from 1982 to 1998. They limited the comfort range of the bags slightly, but man did they work in the chit. I don't use them anymore and I think only Dryloft is available these days. $$$

Apart from that, if you're going single-walled and floorless in your corner of the world, I think you're smart to use a synthetic. Me, I'd do a tent and down, but we're arriving at the same destination.

Again, my only point was down can work perfectly well in wet conditions depending on the operator.

and the tent

Or Dryloft

Only need dryloft if you use a Kimber!

OT as regards sleeping bags, but the Afognak/Raspberry Roosevelt elk came from the Olympic Peninsula. Captured in 1928 and transplanted in 1929.

Certainly is. REALLY funny when "that guy" has spent weeks at a time in sub-zero conditions wearing VAPOR BARRIER boots. Get a clue [bleep].

LOL, "VBL Boots"... Did you mean "VBL socks" or "Rubber Boots" (aka Military Mickey Mouse Boots), or maybe a combination of the two?

I always thought VBL socks were a bad idea, but that's me and my feet.

VBL in a down bag at sub zero temps is another thing... good grief.

Hint: the conversation is about sleeping bags. More specifically whether a down bag can be kept dry in a variety of conditions.

Its getting kind of boring watching you two guys argue about who can piss the farthest. try and make a post once where you don't mention the other guy!

true

That's because you're stupid, and that has no remedy.

Good to know... noted and discarded like everything you say!

Dan Adair is your huckleberry... go snuggle.

Alaska_Lanche I love that you check our family blog. I hope you don't have to dig through too many kid pictures to get to the hunting posts.

Also I'm impressed you are off for the South end goat hunting. It'll be cold. I've heard about quite a few others down there this year, and I almost went in the new year myself. Good Luck! Also funnily enough when you are down here I'll be up at meetings in Anchorage and Fairbanks.

And to return to the thread, I too own and very occasionally use synthetic bags. There is definitely a time and place for such bags. But I really do believe that you can get by in most anything with a down bag. But it does take some experience. I've taken people out in the field who seem to manage to get everything they own wet. For those I recommend synthetic!

I have a set procedure that seems to keep my bag dry even in very humid wet circumstances. Number one I use a very breathable bivy bag. I once used a 'emergency bivy' and woke up with a wetter bag than if I had slept outside in the dew. And number 2 I get all the air out of the bag and stow it right away when I get up. If I am at a permanent camp and it is sunny I do leave my bag out to dry on top of my bivy.

Also I just did remember a very wet and miserable Kodiak river survey. We had to break camp in the rain, travel in the rain, and set up camp in the rain - for days. Worms were crawling up the sides of the tents it was so wet. I kept my down bag completely dry in the breathable bivy. Once I was out of that bag it was packed away and kept dry. And it seemed to stay dry too - even when the stuff sack was under water on the bottom of the raft.

Patrick

Patrick,

The whole blog is good sir!!! An awesome Alaskan family taking advantage of what it all has to offer!!!

I'm hoping its not TOO cold, but that might be wishful thinking!!!

Actually cold and sunny with snow is probably better for goat hunting than wet, grey, and fog down to the water. And I want it to snow so I can ski! Patrick

If you kids would take a break from peeing in each other, I have a dumb question I'd like to ask.

What exactly is a bivy bag, what does it do and what is a "good" one vs junk?

and while you are answering that question, what, in your experience, is the best thing to wear while sleeping in a sleeping bag?

I guess it would depend on conditions.
I can tell you what works for me in moderately cold weather, meaning down to low 20's.
I wear clean merino base layers and clean merino socks. I sometimes stuff a down vest in my bag for next morning.

I believe this would take me comfortably down into the teens though in my area, or the time of year I go out west, it would be an anomaly for the temps to drop that low.

Guys routinely experiencing more extreme conditions would likely laugh at this but living down south that's just our conditions.

Those guys who have experience in extreme conditions need to chime in.

Is it something like this?

http://www.moosejaw.com/moosejaw/shop/product_Terra-Nova-Survival-Bivi_10215878_10208_10000001_-1_

I have some limited experience in extremes but recent experience at the forum makes me prefer to pass on chiming in on anything.


One of the graces of backpacking is the individual nature of it, with each person using gear of his choice. The corollary of giving total freedom to anyone else to use whatever gear they choose has been a hallmark of this excellent forum. We learn from what others say they do, but never feel compelled to lockstep with anybody.

And there is the great loss. I have a difficult time wrapping my head around grown men who will degenerate a discussion into nothing more than slinging profanity at each other over whether down or synthetic is best, reminds me of parents getting in fistfights over children's T-ball games.
It's just sad.

And it is a loss to those of us who DO come here to draw on the experience of others and share our experiences and preferences. One person carries and axe because, well, because he admires and enjoys the workmanship of fine Swedish tools and enjoys using them on his backpacking outings...only to be chewed up for being a fool for carrying such crap and called everything stupid and fake to a wannabe and have his character assaulted.



So screw 'em. Tell me about bivy bags.

As I see it there are 2 basic types of bivy bags. There is the kind that is designed to be used on its own as a tent (often with a hoop over the head), and there is the lighter weight kind that is made to be used in conjunction with a tarp and just keeps your bag dry. The one I have wieghs 8 oz and has a bug net, but i would not want to try using it without a tarp. It would do for a night outside in an emergency.

As regards a good bivy - for me a good bivy is one that breathes well. If I bivy does not breathe well then you end up with a wet bag anyway simply from perspiration. And that brings up another point - always try to breath out of bivy and sleeping bag.

I also did do an experiment about clothes in a bivy bag. I always used to be a firm believer in less clothes the better for sleeping. Anyway I took along a 40 degree down bag on a trip in May and a freak cold snap with temps down into the teens had me freezing at night. So I put on my puff pants and puff jacket and all my clothes on and still froze. So the next night rather than wearing the clothes I stuffed them in and around me inside the bag - basically putting the extra insolation where I needed it. And I slept toasty warm!!

Basically I think wearing the clothes might insulate you from the bag and not let you warm it up? I also think with the clothes around you lets the bivy and sleeping bag breathe better so the moisture does not build up. Anyway those are my thoughts on the matter. Patrick

My love affair with bivies started and ended in one Septembers bow season in NW Montana. I spent 5 days in the Swan Range chasing Elk. It went from 70 and sunny, to 50 and rainy, then 35 and snowing. That trip was in the top 5 for "sucked the most" That was the end of me thinking Cameron Hanes knew what the [bleep] he was talking about. Now I'm of the opinion that bivies are for emergencies. Something to consider... A Kifaru Supertarp without an Annex weighs about what most bivies does. It also sucks way less than a bivy.

sleeping with clothes on? I always have underwear on, socks, and a shirt when I'm in a sleeping bag. Once it actually starts to get cold out, I usually have on a 200 weight merino wool pair of long underwear on, and a henley merino top of similar weight. My new favorite socks are the Smartwool PhD's of midweight design. If I think it'll be cold enough that I'll be wearing more clothes than that to bed, I take a warmer bag.

However.... Springtime in Montana can get dicey, and I recall one trip during Spring Bear that I wore all my clothes inside a WM Badger (merino base layer, 320 weight merino fleece, and a downie jacket) I don't remember being cold after putting on all the clothes. But then, there's enough room in that bag that I wasn't tight anywhere in it...

That was before I became a full blown "non-classic-backpacker" and had heated shelters. Now, wet clothes, wet bags, shivering, being cold in a tent, or having life suck in November are distant memories.

My favorite tent right now is my Seek Outside BCS1. Tent, stakes, and center pole (carbon fiber)in an EdT 10-5 sack is 3 Lbs 10.4 ounces. My C stove from Ed goes 1 pound 13 ounces. 4 1/2 Lbs for a heated shelter that I'm sure is more square feet than a floored tent of the same weight. That leaves enough room in my pack to carry a 19 ounce axe to play with

That clears up some confusion pgsalton and DanAdair, thanks.

What's been confusing to me was the little one-man "tube tent" bivy and the outer sleeping bag cover being called a bivy.

I can see where both would need to breath and breath well or else be wetter than being without. I'm thinking the bag cover would be useful in a single wall tent if one were stuck in some rainy weather and getting heavy condensation without a chance to dry out during the day.

I've also stuffed a down vest and at times a Kuiu Spindrift in my bag. That also makes it nice putting them on the next morning if it's frosty! And what I wear is similar to Dan, merino base layers and merino socks.

And by the way. I have a Gransfors Bruks Wildlife Hatchet. I bought it and thought I must be crazy paying what it cost. It is such a nice tool. I've never had buyer's remorse at all. Being a persnickety craftsman myself, I appreciate the craftsmanship, the sharp edge and it just feels great in the hand. I occasionally carry it on one or two day overnighters, just to play with. Absolutely don't need it but absolutely love it. I'll even walk around my campsite with it on my belt.
It just feels good.

do you ever worry about carbon monoxide poisoning when heating a closed shelter.

No. Mankind has been burning wood since long before we had the internet.

I have wondered about taking a lightweight bucket and carrying a bucket full of campfire coals into a shelter instead of setting up stove and stovepipe. There are warnings about charcoal (briquettes ?) causing monoxide poison inside even a floorless shelter.

Any experts know whether plain old campfire coals will cause dangerous level of monoxide inside a floorless ventilated tipi or other shelter? Few to no hardwoods in my part of the world so such coals would not last a long time but would warm a small space for a little while.

I would rather heat a bucket of rocks on the fire and take that into the shelter.

Even if CO is not a concern, kicking the bucket could cause other problems.

But don't use river rocks like polesmoker sharpens his knife with.

I am not sold on it yet but here is Kuiu's new down sleeping bags.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aegKBFq4i4o

If it works as advertised it will make synthetic bags a thing of the past.

I just wish Kuiu would make an attempt at making correct sizing. If that means they need to make a Tall option so be it. But the BS sizing they got going on now sucks. Jason claims its an athletic fit. BS a XL and XXL are the same length. I know I have bought both and measured. I would like to be a Kuiu "fan boy" as they make some really nice products. But sleeve length sucks! Even the chest sizing sucks. Athletic to Jason must mean short and skinny "Breadstick".

I'm no expert but I can about guarantee if you take a bucket of campfire coals into a tent, you'll soon be evacuating or dead. Yes, this would likely cause carbon monoxide poisoning, in fact, almost certainly.

The reason a wood stove is pretty safe is the same reason it is safe to use a woodstove in a house. The combustion is contained in the firebox and all exhaust gas, goes out the pipe. In fact, that draft is what makes a woodstove of any flavor work. If it is drafting, there is virtually no way any gas can escape back into the tent as it would have to move against the draft, which really isn't physically possible, assuming no gasses are escaping at pipe junctures. Even still, the heat, smoke, gases etc are rising out the top of the tent, through the pipe, and drawing in fresh air continually. I'd say it is pretty safe.


Don't take a bucket of fireplace coals in your tent.

Thanks. Kinda what I figured but since they always specifically mention charcoal briquettes in the warnings I decided to ask.

Heated rocks obviously pose no safety risks, and would work better than nothing...

[quote=MontanaCreekHunter]If it works as advertised it will make synthetic bags a thing of the past. [quote]

Huh?

A weak attempt at making down more impervious to moisture and therefore as effective as synthetic does not equate to synthetic becoming obsolete.

DWR is not a permanent treatment and will only hinder moisture saturation but will not stop it.

The ability of a synthetic fiber-fill bag, especially a continuous-filament fiber-fill bag, to work, regardless of the introduction of moisture, is unquestionable.

It's 'true down' that is becoming a thing of the past because duck feathers are being mingled with down as down becomes harder to source. The price of down bags will soon climb. A source in New York has 850-fill down listed at $75 / pound wholesale. That makes for a very expensive bag at retail or even at a pro-deal price.

Down don't grow on trees. It grows on geese. I love it the way non-hunters love to pick on hunters for gathering their own meat, then they climb into their "comfy down bag". Somewhere there are bare naked geese who are strong proponents of synthetic-fiber-fill bags!

Distance from the cold is the true insulator. Loft. By wearing too much clothing in an adequate bag, you are stifling heat from filling the loft. If heat does not fill the loft, cold air fills the loft and you will be cold because of the close proximity of the cold to your body. Wear as little as possible inside your bag. If you are cold, you are under-bagged or your bag is not efficient enough for conditions.

Interesting how some insulating mediums have to be re-invented and re-marketed every couple years to keep them relevant.

Well, I consider my current 3+ pound REI down bag and my synthetic 4 lb bag heavy. That's cause I see lighter bags for the same zero temperature ratings advertized all the time. However, my experimenting with lighter bags, while limited by funding has left me skeptical that lighter weight can be warmer. Weight seems to equal heat in a sleeping bag. I have spent some miserable nights in lightweight bags. A tip is that a top quality insulated pad is necessary for anything below freezing.

DWR was only one component of the bag. I take it you did not watch. Either way I have yet to have a problem with down. If this treatment to the down works as advertised it will only make a down bag better then it already is. Which in my opinion is better then synthetics.

Watched the video.
Not impressed enough to spend $600 on a sleeping bag in order to save 1.5# from my pack. I usually come back with an added 80-100 pounds.

He clearly states the dangers and limitations of down. More than once.

You go for it. I'll watch and continue to rely of my synthetic bag, which is much more reliable than down.

Exactly! It's always cool to be on an outing with someone who does some things differently than what I'm accustomed to. I like to think I can still learn. I know some guys I really respect who will never use a down bag. Which makes it all the more fun to use one on a trip with them.

He is stating the limitations of untreated down, not of his new product. By all means use what works for you. But until you have tried it you have zero experience with the product. So you really can't speak of its reliability.

I got behind reading this thread for a week or so, so I'm catching up. A couple comments about earlier questions:

Judging the temp by using the temp in a nearby town can be very misleading. Towns often are built along rivers or creeks. At night, cold air settles in river bottoms and often those are the coldest places around. Camping even 100 yds away from a creek on higher ground can make a considerable difference in temps. On the large scale, higher elevations certainly are colder but in what you might call a micro-climate, that's often just the reverse. When snow is melting, it will often hang on much longer in the bottoms because the nights are colder there. Think thermals.

As for a bucket of burning coals in a tent - count me out, thank you. Indian tipis had open fires but they also had very large vents in the top controlled by long poles to move the flaps as needed. They could be opened up a lot more than any modern tent, making the whole tipi into a big chimney. If you read historical accounts about tipis, they were also usually very smoky inside, especially during storms when the barometer was falling.

Since I use llamas, I'm not as concerned about bag wt as most of you are. 5 lb for me is no big deal. My bag is close to 40 years old. It's down and in excellent shape but back then, they used stiffer nylon. It doesn't nestle in nearly as well as newer bags made of extra soft nylon so it leave air spaces, especially around my shoulders. I really need to replace it for late season hunting so I've been following this topic. I need a bag that's actually good for 10F, not just rated for 10F.