You are carrying a 15 shot 40sw for grizzly protection.
You can chose between 155gr lswc @1350fps, 18bhn
OR
180gr rnfp @1050fps, 12bhn

Which would you choose and why?

180’s all day.

I have experienced less flip with the 180’s in my Glocks, 35,23,27. The heavier slugs should penetrate deeper.

Or you could spend $20 on a box of quality bear ammo.....

https://www.underwoodammo.com/40-s-w-200-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose.html


In stock right now!

Better yet...get a .44 magnum, .45 Colt or a .480 Ruger.

If I was going to shoot a .40 for bear I'd shoot 180 flat nose. I'd rather get penetration to ensure I still hit vitals

Neither. I'd go with 200g hard cast at 1000fps.

I would use a .45/70 lever gun

I see a trend is starting to develop. I carry ammo just a little more bigger and a little more faster in a 10mm. Never pulled the trigger on a grizzly and hope it stays that way. I’ve got nothing but respect for them. My pistol feels puny when I see one. Yea, I’ve read about 9 mil Phil. Well, I’m not him and he’s too big to carry around in a holster.

I've always been a proponent of dressing for the occasion.

Interesting.
The power factor of the 155gr load is 209, the 180gr load is 189 - a measurement of relative momentum. But the sectional density of the 155gr is .138 versus the 180gr's .160 - not sure what the relative penetration would be given the velocity difference. I've never seen this tested.

I wonder if the softer alloy of the 180gr matters much?

Btw, the SD of a 147gr 9mm bullet is .166 - (what Phil used), yet the momentum of that load is only 150, which shows how little work was required to get that bullet deep into his bear.

I had to look up what BHN was. I think the OP is just being contrary. Hard and light vs heavy and soft. The answer is always heavy and hard.

Something that some "bear killers" don't know is that a bullet put into the actual heart of a bear will not stop him. A bear's heart rate is slow, slow, slow giving him time to kill you even after you putting a bullet or several into him. A CNS shot is all that will prevent him from killing you. Lots of luck with that when he is charging you!!!!

Of course what you say about a bear having a slow heart beat is true. But when you say that a CNS shot us the only way to keep the bear from killing you, is most certainly not true. Too many instances where body shot saved the day.

Do we know how many times the body shot DID NOT WORK?

The correct answer is neither.

If you are going to do 15 shots, make them these:



Stuffed in these:




shot from this:



At around 1200 FPS for a 240 power factor.

JCS271 knows bears, that includes grizzly, I trust his judgement as a very experienced hunter in bear territory. I have black bears and hogs in my neck of the woods and if I were carrying a .40 that is the load I would have in the gun. As it is, I carry a 10mm with Underwood 220 hardcast at 1200 fps. Mo better...

Neither, I have a takedown 450, Marlin and a Norinco
12 ga( 3" mag) single shot.It might be 25" long .
Both fit into my army style ( deep) saddle bags or into a human pack when afoot.
I see Grizzlies frequently, even at my Ranch.
I had one encounter with a sidearm, a .44 mag...after that went back to the rifle and 12 ga.
The .44 might just make a bear really mad.

Do you? But, I do know it worked for the guy in Denali park with a 45 ACP and I know it worked for Phil Shoemaker with a 9MM and I know it worked for me with a 475L

Neither, 200gr hard cast flat points at 1000+ fps.

Actually the myth of bears heart rates being low came from measuring hibernating bears. They have normal heart rates like about any other critter. They have large O2 storing capacity in the form of myoglobin.

Another myth is how difficult it is to get penetration due to big bones. Quite the contrary, their bones are quite light and flexible.

My choice is hardcast...

👍

I would not carry a 40 S&W for bear, period.

I've assumed, (based on followup necropsies where they dug out slugs), that the biggest detriment to penetration is fat. I don't know why, but warm, slimey fat seems to be a good bullet barrier.

The hell I am ...

I'm not even carrying one for black bear protection.

Cougar, sure.

Anyone stupid enough to pack a .40 S&W for bear protection deserves to be eaten.

"Final answer."

Tom

Phil Shoemaker stopped the attack of a 900 pound grizzly and killed it with a 9mm, so a 40 I would think is an upgrade

The SWC shape is something to behold when delivered at speed. I've seen it spray confetti during a penetration test with phone books. It was totaly unexpected.

Having said that. Some animals seem to inspire a strong feeling of being under armed. I doubt that any crisis would show a definitive advantage of either or. The person at the trigger, and the actions of the bear will determine the ultimate outcome.

I noticed that most of the comments drifted away from the question asked - so I think you're absolutely right about the fear of being under armed.

The following is a good compilation of pistol vs bear defense shootings based on cartridge:
handguns vs bears

The article lends credence to your 2nd statement.

Given the options I would take the SWC at higher velocity.

Ok,,,,,, FWIW, here is what I've been carrying since about 2003, and it will get-er-done, if I do my part,,,,,, and I have... Lj

You should eschew worrying about ballistics or bullets and concentrate on the gun itself. For your purposes, get the one with the dullest front sight so it doesn't tear up your rectum while you're fuc ki ng yourself with it.

All broadside shots through the ribs, as I recall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDGM7QgxuWw

This is an interesting video on several levels and worth the time to view it.

Thanks - that was a good watch.

I like what you did. I'm gonna guess that opening up the throats is what is saving your blast shield.
I don't understand what the 11° forcing cone does with bullet that long. I also don't understand why S&W can't/won't open up the cylinder throats on the titanium cylinders - this is such an old issue.

If you can put full house bear loads through a 329, you're a far better man than I.

I have a similar weighted Taurus Titanium tracker in 41 mag. I guarantee it will never see my 250 gr loads, and damned few hot 210 gr loads.

Ok then,,,,, you are correct, the Blast-Shield Area is showing very little if any flame cutting and dis-coloration as before,,,,, and Google-up 11deg Forcing Cone when Shooting Lead Boolits, which is all I Shoot,,,,, and Yes, Opening the Cylinder Throats-Up on that SS Un-Fluted Cylinder also took care of any rounds sticking, on extraction, and as for the Original Titanium Cyl. you couldn't RUN Fast enough to give me another one, and no more cleaning issues either, Hoppe's and my Brass Wire Brush work just fine....... Lj....

Where I do my woods walking and hunting is southeastern Ohio. Black bear sightings are getting more common, and wild boars are semi common. My normal carry while hiking there is my Glock 27 .40 with a Lone Wolf barrel installed. I load it with Double Tap or Buffalo Bore 200 grain hard cast ammo which is about 950fps from this pistol. Hope I Never have to shoot a bear in self defense. Would love seeing one though.

Ron

Ok then,,,,,,, but just to be clear, I practice a lot, 7-800 rd's/yr. +/-, with .44 spl. loads, and those Cowboy action loads, as well as some standard off the shelf .44Mag loads, and in the 18 +/- yrs that I've been packing and shooting this Gun, I've probably put about 6 Boxes +/- of Buffalo-Bore RR 255gr Keith loads, and about 3, maybe 4 Boxes of 300-320gr Alaska Back-Packer Loads,,,,,, so there you go,,,,, it all comes down to understanding what you've got, and how to use what you've got, and this Gun is still as Tight and Trigger Smooth as 1st purchased...... Lj....

I figure either one is better than bear spray. Hasbeen

I am sure the revolver can handle the abuse. It is my hand and wrist that would concern me.

Part of the fun gaining proficiency.

Some loads are more painful than others. E.g. 300gr @1050fps is not a painful load for me. But a 240gr@1250fps is and I won't shoot more than 3 cylinders of it. Even though the 300gr load has slightly more momentum, the recoil pulse is not as sharp. Btw, I'm talking about shooting a 329pd.

Most "damage" done by guns isn't immediately noticeable. It shows up years later when you start thinking things like "why is my wrist always sore and my fingers stiff?". I remember an article about that by John Taffin.

10MM



200 grain truncated cone hard cast flat point. 1150 FPS.







This is offhand at 15 yards in my Glock 21 .45 ACP with 10MM barrel installed. The load is quite accurate, totally reliable with a stock G20/21 recoil spring, and is easy enough to shoot that you can hammer them out it quick succession with some practice.

My 5” m and p 40 runs a 200 NOE WFN at dang near 1100 with longshot. Not much difference, cases do not bulge, primer pockets are still snug after several shots. Seven five gallon buckets of brass makes my desire to pick up empties very slim. Seems to me that multiple rapid hits are very effective as is one hit from a big gun like one of my fifties.
The m and p sure packs easier than the smith 500 or my two 500 L single actions

A big plus is that the m&p40 has excellent casehead support.

They really do. I’ve run some loads through mine that did expand primer pockets. Pretty impressed with the m and p over the blocks. Yes I tried the block 20 but just could not get past the grip angle. Shot a thousand rounds and sold it. Carried it quite a bit too. Went back to a 1911 and revolvers until my friend shoved buckets of forty brass in the truck and said you need a 40....... so I got the Smith. Lots of police trade in magazines available for it.

Wish S&W would produce a 10mm M&P pistol.

If they did, I'd be on it in a heartbeat.

How about we have a "stopping big bears with a handgun" thread limited to only those who've done so? I mean, we're really big on BTDT and "pictures or it didn't happen" here.

I believe if we set those guidelines, this thread would soon fade away. Better IMHO to allow the free expression of ideas of what one man's perfect solution to the proper handgun for bears. I am enjoying reading other's post on this thread.

Then we could go the same route for self defense!

And later we could even institute it for punching paper .

I’ve never killed a bear that was trying to get me but I have 4 friends who’ve been unfortunate enough to have to do it with a handgun. This is one of my very best friends, he uses 240 Keith style bullets around 850fps, over spec for the 44sp but he isn’t shooting piles of them.

We'd have to listen to 458 win tell us how its done. He did it with a 9mm and lived to tell the story. I don't think I'd want to try it, but since there is no such thing as kinetic energy and "knock down power", I think I'd be alright.. ha ha..

How do you know that?

You should tell that story to see if any answers change......

[quote=MOGC]Wish S&W would produce a 10mm M&P pistol. [/quote

I’ve been emailing them for years about producing one…
Nothing but crickets!