Gentlemen,

I'd be grateful if those with bullseye knowledge and experience, would be willing to provide general pointers and suggestions for someone interested in a true "bullseye capable" pistol. Not just a good shooting iron, but the real deal for 50 yard competition.

I was originally looking for a 38 Master, and may still buy one, but the focus now is a 1911.

• I have a .22LR, that I will upgrade first
• I don't own a single 1911 now, and only had an old Colt rattletrap for a very brief time
• Will probably use a red dot, unless there is a compelling reason not to
• Not sure that I would actually compete, but I do enjoy informal "precision" rifle shooting, and do intend to shoot 50y
• I also like to tinker, and might be capable of fitting parts and am not opposed to buying some tools
• I'd like to do the upgrades with my kids, and have them see what if any improvements are made
• I'm also not opposed to learning with a decent base 1911, and sending it to a top BE gunsmith either
• I am a handloader, and have made some very good 45 ACP loads for revolvers
• Budget - open, but might end up with several pistols depending on kids' interests!

Any recommendations for books?

Websites? I've been reading at Bullseye-L Forum.

Organizations or clubs?

I have come to realize that there are many very fine 1911 makes/models out there, but they are not necessarily suitable for BE no matter the cost. I've also been intrigued by the mechanical design of the 1911, that suits it to BE shooting. Very cool stuff, and I am excited for this "journey".

Thanks,

Jason

Bullseye 1911 are a thing to themselves. Do you plan on shooting with Bullseye technique or Isocelecs two handed or something else?

I expect that my kids and I will shoot two handed to begin with. And perhaps formal Bullseye technique later. It's more about shooting small at 50y, with a pistol, than anything.

[align:right][/align]Bullseye was my sport for thirty-eight years. If you want to compete in the 900 and 2700 big boy matches you’ll need to pony up some serious cash to be serious. But you’re miles and years from that level I suspect. The National matches have three course or legs of fire: rimfire, centerfire and 45 all at 50 yds outdoors. Most competitors shoot a rimfire and one centerfire a1911 platform. Centerfire used to see mostly 32 cal but they are not as popular in the states anymore since the 45 qualifies for both courses and makes a bigger hole

So you’ve got a good rimfire and you’re looking for a 45 softball or midrange target pistol. Good move but building a truly reliable and accurate gun will cost you. I personally would suggest searching for a used gun set up at half price. They are out there if you look around especially at matches especially Camp Perry. Otherwise a decent Colt or other reputable manufacturer with a comp barrel bushing, trigger job, springs, ramp contour, some grips depending, and a red dot will get you on the target. Of course for target 45 acp ammo you’ll need to reload to dial in the ammo and gun correctly. That I’m thinking is the best affordable entry package for the CF legs.

To start out in this sport find a mentor one who you know is qualified. This maybe as easy as attending some matches but maybe much more involved if you are unlucky enough to have no or few leagues. You’ll want to start with your 22 rimfire at club indoor ranges shooting the Gallery course. This is the place to build your fundamentals, technique and accuracy. Note most clubs that offer these matches do so from Fall to Early Spring and almost always need fresh blood as the sport of Bullseye is hurting for membership. Younger shooters usually do not want to spend years learning to shoot offhand for X’s . I know New England has always been a fertile area and I understand Seattle and thereabouts is hot too. I shot in NH, MA and ME in three leagues plus state Nationals. Believe it or not MIT was nearly always tops. Not sure about the rest of the country. I’m in MI and it’s beyond dead here. those matches I’ve attended here are often a line full of two handed shooters — sorry not Bullseye !

I wish you good luck hang in there it’s worth it. Once you get to the point where it clicks, if you’re like me if I shoot rabitts, chippy’s anything within 40-50 yards and I’m using a revolver or pistol it’s one handed— it’s just natural

One of the best sites is : TargetTalk.org

Rick

If you want to shoot two handed action pistol events then practice it, but the techniques, stances and equipment are are so incompatible that all you will do is pick up habits that won’t help in Bullseye at all. You’d be better off in archery.

[*]Budget - open, but might end up with several pistols depending on kids' interests!
[/list]

Any recommendations for books?

Websites? I've been reading at Bullseye-L Forum.

Organizations or clubs?

I have come to realize that there are many very fine 1911 makes/models out ethere, but they are not necessarily suitable for BE no matter the cost. I've also been intrigued by the mechanical design of the 1911, that suits it to BE shooting. Very cool stuff, and I am excited for this "journey".

Thanks,

Jason[/quote]

TargetTalk.org. Very good source

"Will probably use a red dot, unless there is a compelling reason not to"

I don't think optics or compensators are allowed. They are not allowed in my gun club's Bullseye sanctioned matches.

The biggest difference in the shooting, which reflects the types of guns used, are shooting against the clock with power factor for the loads vs. no time limits and "softball".

Both types have developed their own after market parts, which make the guns different.

Bullseye---"my grandmother can shoot that good, it just takes her longer"

action shooting--- " Geez can't that guy stand still long enough to reload?"

Some bad info in this post. the centerfire pistol match course is Slow fire all shot at 50 yds 3 strings of 10 shots, then timed fire and rapid fire all shot at 25yds for a grand total of 90 shots. You make it sound like it’s all shot at 50yds. I want to clarify it is not. Your type of advice is what drives people away from this sport, you make it sound difficult. As our match director says bring it and shoot it, if you feel like this is something they want to do then we offer suggestions. We had a young man show up to one of our matches and right out the gate he was shooting 780's with his 22 L.R. He never shot bullseye before in his life.

You guys aren't shooting bullseye matches you are shooting a EIC matches. Go read rule 4.2 of the CMP pistol rule book. Optics are allowed compensator aren't allowed.

https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/2023PistolRules.pdf?vers=030923

We shoot bullseye matches every month up here. With couple of EIC matches thrown in when the weather gets nice to shoot outdoors.

I had my wad gun built by Dave Salyers, he builds a fine wad gun for a fair price. Go buy a TISA 1911 the ones they sell for $329 bucks. Send it to Dave Salyer, he puts Kart NM barrel, Kart NM bushing, does a trigger job, tightens slide to frame, puts rail and optic on it. Mine cost around $1200 to have done and this thing will shoot tiny groups like you want at 50yds. You will have it back in less than 2 weeks. Far as ammo go buy Zero 185gr SWCHP or Zero 185gr HP use either bullseye or wst for powder and use whatever large pistol primer you have. Preferably if you can find them or have them use federal. Every bullseye shooter will tell you the key is to dry fire, dry fire and dry fire. Also to shoot two handed they have to be NRA sanctioned bullseye matches. If you need Dave Salyer's info shoot me a pm I will give it to you.

Forgot he test fires them using a ransom rest and will tell you what he shot in them far as loads. I think mine was shooting 1.2 inch groups at 25 yrds.

If you want an EIC pistol find a Springfield XD-Match in a 45 ACP. These things are as close as you will get to having a match ready EIC pistol. There is a outfit making drop in triggers for them. Or buy a Beretta 92 send it Dave Salyers and he will make a Hard Ball pistol for you in a 9mm. Dave Sams 9mm load is well known in the hardball world. 6.2 grains of power pistol with a 115gr Hornady fmj.

Mine is a Kart from Riverhead, NY. (that's how long ago) He used the colt barrel and recut the lugs. Had a barsto rib, then a weaver with aimpoint, then a tumbstone style dot. I was never in the 260's but had a lot of fun (this was 50ft bullseye one hand 30rnds) . we had guys shooting 300's .

Kart, Maples, Clark - this is a long time ago.

no ambi anything
no beaver
no funnel

Wanna find out if you got rhythm? Try shooting the 22 and CF portions of a 2700 match using a K-22 and a K-38. Firing cadence during timed and rapid fire becomes extremely important. Ready or not, each shot’s gotta go off at its proper interval, exactly on time, with thumb-cocking between each, and the last shot breaking just before the target turns away. All one-handed, too. It’s a humbling experience.

Nice thing about the K-Frame Target Masterpieces, though, if you shoot them right, they’ll score well. There’s no need to dump a bunch of accurizing money into them first.

But, properly accurized (expensive) autos sure do make it a lot easier to shoot a decent score, and without all the work.

The famous question are you thumb cocker or shoot double action. Me I’m a thumb cocker, I’m horrible at double action.

I did make a disastrous attempt at double action point shooting International Rapid Fire, once, ‘cause 5 shots in 4 seconds didn’t allow for thumb cocking, the targets seemed so close, and the scoring rings seemed so generously large - oops, turned out they weren’t. But, for Bullseye, it was always thumb cocking single action, due to the one hand requirement.

However, two-handed double action shooting is another matter:



Once I was classified PPC Grand Master, I thereafter shot every match double action only, as it was simply less work to be staging the trigger and maintaining consistent grip, allowing more time for sighting and let off. Just before the end of my time with the CHP Pistol Team, I shot a 598 in a match that way. But, the match winner out Xed me. Close, but no cigar.

I didn’t think the OP was deep enough into National Match distances and targets to really care. Obviously you do so I guess you need to dicker on B-16 targets slow and timed/rapid targets and distance. Huh? Cause that’s what drives new shooters away right ? I told you how long I competed and retired as a Master Class but shooting once a month up where you’re at well it’s hard to compete with such a rigorous schedule. Listen my friend I’ve competed in this discipline enough years including Perry five times and help run some serious matches in NE. Member of four clubs in New England all of which had first class indoor Gallery setups and active leagues indoor 300 and outdoor 900. What caused new shooters to leave was plain and simple patience and practice. There’d sign up with their new Rugers and shoot five weeks or so and get bummed out not scoring. I mentioned in my post the Gallery course at 50’ is the incubator to good Bullseye. So I’m sorry you’re having such a tough time cause Bullseye is really a pickup discipline that anybody can do once a month..

Rick

I will say it again when people read what you write that will dissuade them all day long from trying out bullseye. You make it sound like it's a daunting task and take years to get any good and go to Camp Perry, Cardinal, Canton. I was just telling a guy at a bullseye match today, about going to camp perry, I said go just because you aren't shooting 800's don't let that stop you. I said you will get more advice from some of the best pistol shooters in world. On the last part I'm not having a tough time, Im not high master or master but I enjoy shooting and do it because I still can. Truth be told I'm a service rifle shooter.

Gentlemen, thank you for the info. Lot to digest! I need to re-read it again.

I've been really interested in the Tisas, but wasn't sure if any gunsmiths would work on them. Good to hear that Dave Salyers will.

I didn't mention it, but I squirrelled away a S&W 67 for each child, and have been looking for a good gunsmith. I heard that there is a good one in AZ, and I need to do some work down there soon, so maybe I'll drop the revolvers off in person.

I was under the same impression until Dave told me the metallurgy on the Tisas is very good.

I too am a Bullseye shooter, in fact since 1978. I'm now 81 and still shooting Expert scores. Anyway, I think I have 5 Salyer built 1911 wadguns. All have Kart NM barrels and shoot very, very well so I can recommend him highly. I'm sure if you talk to Dave, he will have some good advice for the path you take. He might even know of a pistol someone wants to sell.

Buying a used wadgun is generally a good way to get going with a known good pistol if its not about worn out and needing a rebuild. If you can find a lightly used Springfield Range Officer (might get one for $700) you could start with that and when your skill level increases and you are enjoying the sport, send it in to Dave to rebuild. Take a look at this website https://www.bullseyeforum.net/ Thats where the Bullseye shooters hang out and you can pick up a lot of good info.
Phil

Lots of good advice from several people.

My best softball gun was built by myself & my mentor who also got me into the game.

He had been to both Colt & S&W training schools, was a certified High Standard armorer & had won several state championships & as someone else mentioned, it really does help to have a mentor / coach when you begin if you plan to do any serious competing beyond local stuff.

That gun was a Colt commercial slide, with a Bomar rib added for weight, a 414 NM barrel, on an Essex frame; it would do 10 shots into 1.5" at 50 yards from a Ransom rest with good ammo like WW SuperMatch, which isn't available anymore, sad as it is.

If functioned flawlessly with 3.2 gr of BE at the 25 yard line for the timed & rapid fire stages, as long as I kept it WET, & I would usually oil the top round in a mag as well.......................very few guns will manage that load reliably, & it won't be with a HB spring either. (That's part of why talking about a stock Les Baer gun of any type for BE shooting is laughable, hardball matches, maybe, soft ball, not a chance)

Getting good & being competitive in BE shooting takes a lot of range time, a lot of dedication & a lot of ammo & not just with the 45, but also with the 22, whatever gun you might choose to use............and ammo quality matters as well, as it does with the 45, especially at the 50 yard line...............basic 22 ammo won't cut it. I would burn through 3-400 rounds a week of both 45 & 22 ammo for practice & was lucky to have a clube member with a Star loading machine to get my 25 yard ammo from.

Lots of people look at BE & think it's easy, compared to some of the other speed shooting disciplines, but I would challenge any of those people to go shoot, one handed, at 50 yards & the same at the 2, 25 yard stages..............& be able to score a 90 on all three, not to mention any X's.....................at the higher class matches, winners are usually not determined by score alone, but by how many X's.

But the beauty of BE shooting that no one mentioned is that you are competing in classes, so you are really just competing with other shooters of the same skill level (once you've shot enough to get a classification).

So a good shooter who learns fast can be competitive very early on in the lower classifications before he shoots himself into a higher & tougher classification & get some wins, if that matters to you.

If anyone has the time & the interest level & the ability to afford good equipment (and yes, good equipment matters), and intends to stay active in general shooting, it will be a rewarding experience & you will become a much better shooter of any type of weapon & any type of use.

If I can say that I've retained one skill from BE shooting, it would be the almost automatic response to getting the gun up, on target & squeezing off the round, without really think about it.................once you've acquired that skill, it never really goes away & carries over into hunting & SD shooting situations..................you will not be laboring over acquiring the target & pulling the trigger.

Good Luck with your venture.

JME

MM

The best thing I learned from what little BE I have shot, ( Mod.41. 7 in.) was keeping the sights aligned so that no angular movement (MOA) stuff transferred to the gun on shot release. Only shot it one winter but made Master IPSC that summer. (Dinosaur master, now). Placed 10 up from the previous year in Steel Challenge. Had a lot of fun at Soldier of Fortune shoot.

I found an XDM 45 5.25 Competition model a week ago. It was like new, and $299.95. I went back today, and it was long gone!!!! I should have just bought it, would have came in handy for the bowling pin matches I shoot in Washington. Good suggestion on the XDM's though. Every one of them I've shot, has been stellar.

I second the Salyer recommendation. He built one for me. Used a brand new SA Range Officer. Incredibly accurate with 200g SWC. Intend to try some 185’s someday.

Couple of important points raised by MontanaMan about the quality of the pistol and the ammunition used in it.

First, as to the quality of the pistol: Aside from trigger quality, the fit of the barrel to the slide and slide stop pin is most important, with fit of the slide to the frame being far less so. I believe too much emphasis is placed on how a pistol performs in a Ransom Rest, which indexes the frame in relation to the target. Achieving good Ransom Rest results requires a very precise slide to frame fit, which can be very expensive to produce with the necessary reliability, and which I’m convinced is unnecessary to a good shooting pistol, anyway. Remember that, for aiming each shot, the shooter will be aligning the sights with the target, and the sights are solidly attached to the slide which, in turn, holds the barrel in alignment with the target. The consistency of that alignment is what really counts. The shooter will not be aiming the frame, so any inconsistent alignment of the frame will be inconsequential (long as it’s not a rattle trap, GI fit and won’t shift as the hammer falls). Therefore, in my view, Ransom Rest accuracy is nice to have, but unnecessary for top scores. I’ve seen good Bullseye shooters easily outshoot a Ransom Rest, using pistols with a match grade barrel properly fit to the slide and pin, but with a standard factory slide to frame fit many would consider insufficiently snug.

As to ammunition: Since at least the 1940s, and through the 1970s, when bullseye shooting was THE BIG THING, probably the most popular .45ACP load with the top competitors, out to 50 yards, was a H&G #68 200gr. SWC and 3.5grs. Hercules (now Alliant) Bullseye. This load is still hard to beat, and will cycle in a properly broke-in pistol with a 16 pound recoil spring (18 pounds in mine):




All shot two handed, standing, as I don’t do well one handed anymore.

That's good shooting & groups, even though at only 50 ft. with a stock slide.

Adding weight to the slide has lots of benefits.................I want as little muzzle movement as I can possibly get for the rapid & timed fire stages, with as little recoil & as light a loading as I can get, hence 185's & 3.2 grains of BE...............YMMV.

A Ransom Rest indicates repeatability of the gun & load.

MM

You make a good point concerning using a Ransom Rest since it holds the frame and the shooter uses the sights which are attached to the slide. I use a Ransom Rest to test all my pistols and find the load that particular pistol likes. I figure the RR results show the worst it can be.
Phil

… and the quality of the slide to frame fit.

step 1.. start with a big pile of cash.


final step you are now broke...

Indeed.

Great info, gentlemen. Some good points made that I had not considered, and I appreciate it!

Anyway, I found a used SARO for a fair price, but am still interested in the Tisas. I saw a really nice 14-3 yesterday too. I need to get with some local shooters and see if there are any used BE pistols available locally.

Your truth made me smile.

But, it need not necessarily be so. Other than aftermarket sights, swapping out fire control parts and some cosmetic changes, all done by me, the bottom two pistols pictured above had barrels made and installed by Bar-Sto, with no other modifications. Though everything in these Biden times costs more, the cost of a properly fitted match grade barrel shouldn’t send a person to the poorhouse.

One other observation: Starting with a pistol that rattled like a baby’s toy, the proper fitting of the Bar-Sto match grade barrel and bushing, without more, caused that pistol to lock up consistently solid when in battery (the Colt GM pictured above). It’s what happens when in battery that really matters.

Just for fun, Dave Salyer built this Springfield Range officer for me. Yes, this 10 shot group is out of Ransom Rest and it is at 50 yards. Small circle is 1.5" and large circle is 3".
Phil

Contact Craig Griswold

https://www.ossa.org/state-directors.html

So do we take it, from that statement, that both of you can hold better & shoot smaller groups, or more consistent groups, off hand, one handed at 50 yards, than the gun can do from an RR?

MM

That's a good shooting gun for the investment if the GS charges were $1200.

MM

WHATEVER GAVE YOU THAT IDEA?

I was able to do it just once, too many decades ago, with a pretty loose 1911, two handed, at 25 yards, and over sandbags. I’ve seen others do it, and with better guns too.

This is not possible with a revolver, though.

The S&W K-38 Target Masterpiece (Model 14) is a marvelous performer, which doesn’t get enough credit these days, though its 18-3/8” twist rate is a bit too slow, such that 148gr. hollow base wadcutter bullets from midrange target loads begin to show evidence of instability (yaw) at 50 yards on cooler days. The 14” twist rate of Colt barrels was considered much better, hence the creation of the “Smolt” (aka “Smython”) modified Model 14 revolver for PPC in the ‘70s. That same barrel swap modification was made to Ruger DA revolvers too, which were then called, appropriately enough, “Cougers.”

Of course not. I was talking about the merits of using a Ransom Rest, didn't intend to imply anything concerning my abilities or lack of.
Phil

I believe he was just pulling our collective tail.

Probably. Damn and I took the bait!

Dave Salyer's knows his stuff. Anyone looking to have an excellent wad gun built should not hesitate to send it to Dave. Only issue is he is well into his 80's I think mid to late 80's. So folks who are looking to get a wad gun built and have it back sooner than later. Better get them sent into him, he's also a great man to talk to, he's lived one heck of a life.

I agree. Dave’s turn around time is amazingly short and he is very reasonable in his pricing.
Phil

When someone says that a given set of conditions is the "worst" you can do, that kind implies that there is the likelihood of some better way. This was his reference to shooting a group from a RR.

The only other way to normally shoot a gun is with human hands.

So, in my thinking, that implies that the human doing the shooting can do better than the RR can do.

Which in my mind, & by TenX's comments, is highly unlikely.

Maybe I misunderstood his meaning.

MM