Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Bullseye shooters, I need 1911 advice!

I was under the same impression until Dave told me the metallurgy on the Tisas is very good.

I too am a Bullseye shooter, in fact since 1978. I'm now 81 and still shooting Expert scores. Anyway, I think I have 5 Salyer built 1911 wadguns. All have Kart NM barrels and shoot very, very well so I can recommend him highly. I'm sure if you talk to Dave, he will have some good advice for the path you take. He might even know of a pistol someone wants to sell.

Buying a used wadgun is generally a good way to get going with a known good pistol if its not about worn out and needing a rebuild. If you can find a lightly used Springfield Range Officer (might get one for $700) you could start with that and when your skill level increases and you are enjoying the sport, send it in to Dave to rebuild. Take a look at this website https://www.bullseyeforum.net/ Thats where the Bullseye shooters hang out and you can pick up a lot of good info.
Phil

Lots of good advice from several people.

My best softball gun was built by myself & my mentor who also got me into the game.

He had been to both Colt & S&W training schools, was a certified High Standard armorer & had won several state championships & as someone else mentioned, it really does help to have a mentor / coach when you begin if you plan to do any serious competing beyond local stuff.

That gun was a Colt commercial slide, with a Bomar rib added for weight, a 414 NM barrel, on an Essex frame; it would do 10 shots into 1.5" at 50 yards from a Ransom rest with good ammo like WW SuperMatch, which isn't available anymore, sad as it is.

If functioned flawlessly with 3.2 gr of BE at the 25 yard line for the timed & rapid fire stages, as long as I kept it WET, & I would usually oil the top round in a mag as well.......................very few guns will manage that load reliably, & it won't be with a HB spring either. (That's part of why talking about a stock Les Baer gun of any type for BE shooting is laughable, hardball matches, maybe, soft ball, not a chance)

Getting good & being competitive in BE shooting takes a lot of range time, a lot of dedication & a lot of ammo & not just with the 45, but also with the 22, whatever gun you might choose to use............and ammo quality matters as well, as it does with the 45, especially at the 50 yard line...............basic 22 ammo won't cut it. I would burn through 3-400 rounds a week of both 45 & 22 ammo for practice & was lucky to have a clube member with a Star loading machine to get my 25 yard ammo from.

Lots of people look at BE & think it's easy, compared to some of the other speed shooting disciplines, but I would challenge any of those people to go shoot, one handed, at 50 yards & the same at the 2, 25 yard stages..............& be able to score a 90 on all three, not to mention any X's.....................at the higher class matches, winners are usually not determined by score alone, but by how many X's.

But the beauty of BE shooting that no one mentioned is that you are competing in classes, so you are really just competing with other shooters of the same skill level (once you've shot enough to get a classification).

So a good shooter who learns fast can be competitive very early on in the lower classifications before he shoots himself into a higher & tougher classification & get some wins, if that matters to you.

If anyone has the time & the interest level & the ability to afford good equipment (and yes, good equipment matters), and intends to stay active in general shooting, it will be a rewarding experience & you will become a much better shooter of any type of weapon & any type of use.

If I can say that I've retained one skill from BE shooting, it would be the almost automatic response to getting the gun up, on target & squeezing off the round, without really think about it.................once you've acquired that skill, it never really goes away & carries over into hunting & SD shooting situations..................you will not be laboring over acquiring the target & pulling the trigger.

Good Luck with your venture.

JME

MM

The best thing I learned from what little BE I have shot, ( Mod.41. 7 in.) was keeping the sights aligned so that no angular movement (MOA) stuff transferred to the gun on shot release. Only shot it one winter but made Master IPSC that summer. (Dinosaur master, now). Placed 10 up from the previous year in Steel Challenge. Had a lot of fun at Soldier of Fortune shoot.

I found an XDM 45 5.25 Competition model a week ago. It was like new, and $299.95. I went back today, and it was long gone!!!! I should have just bought it, would have came in handy for the bowling pin matches I shoot in Washington. Good suggestion on the XDM's though. Every one of them I've shot, has been stellar.

I second the Salyer recommendation. He built one for me. Used a brand new SA Range Officer. Incredibly accurate with 200g SWC. Intend to try some 185’s someday.

Couple of important points raised by MontanaMan about the quality of the pistol and the ammunition used in it.

First, as to the quality of the pistol: Aside from trigger quality, the fit of the barrel to the slide and slide stop pin is most important, with fit of the slide to the frame being far less so. I believe too much emphasis is placed on how a pistol performs in a Ransom Rest, which indexes the frame in relation to the target. Achieving good Ransom Rest results requires a very precise slide to frame fit, which can be very expensive to produce with the necessary reliability, and which I’m convinced is unnecessary to a good shooting pistol, anyway. Remember that, for aiming each shot, the shooter will be aligning the sights with the target, and the sights are solidly attached to the slide which, in turn, holds the barrel in alignment with the target. The consistency of that alignment is what really counts. The shooter will not be aiming the frame, so any inconsistent alignment of the frame will be inconsequential (long as it’s not a rattle trap, GI fit and won’t shift as the hammer falls). Therefore, in my view, Ransom Rest accuracy is nice to have, but unnecessary for top scores. I’ve seen good Bullseye shooters easily outshoot a Ransom Rest, using pistols with a match grade barrel properly fit to the slide and pin, but with a standard factory slide to frame fit many would consider insufficiently snug.

As to ammunition: Since at least the 1940s, and through the 1970s, when bullseye shooting was THE BIG THING, probably the most popular .45ACP load with the top competitors, out to 50 yards, was a H&G #68 200gr. SWC and 3.5grs. Hercules (now Alliant) Bullseye. This load is still hard to beat, and will cycle in a properly broke-in pistol with a 16 pound recoil spring (18 pounds in mine):




All shot two handed, standing, as I don’t do well one handed anymore.

That's good shooting & groups, even though at only 50 ft. with a stock slide.

Adding weight to the slide has lots of benefits.................I want as little muzzle movement as I can possibly get for the rapid & timed fire stages, with as little recoil & as light a loading as I can get, hence 185's & 3.2 grains of BE...............YMMV.

A Ransom Rest indicates repeatability of the gun & load.

MM

You make a good point concerning using a Ransom Rest since it holds the frame and the shooter uses the sights which are attached to the slide. I use a Ransom Rest to test all my pistols and find the load that particular pistol likes. I figure the RR results show the worst it can be.
Phil

… and the quality of the slide to frame fit.

step 1.. start with a big pile of cash.


final step you are now broke...

Indeed.

Great info, gentlemen. Some good points made that I had not considered, and I appreciate it!

Anyway, I found a used SARO for a fair price, but am still interested in the Tisas. I saw a really nice 14-3 yesterday too. I need to get with some local shooters and see if there are any used BE pistols available locally.

Your truth made me smile.

But, it need not necessarily be so. Other than aftermarket sights, swapping out fire control parts and some cosmetic changes, all done by me, the bottom two pistols pictured above had barrels made and installed by Bar-Sto, with no other modifications. Though everything in these Biden times costs more, the cost of a properly fitted match grade barrel shouldn’t send a person to the poorhouse.

One other observation: Starting with a pistol that rattled like a baby’s toy, the proper fitting of the Bar-Sto match grade barrel and bushing, without more, caused that pistol to lock up consistently solid when in battery (the Colt GM pictured above). It’s what happens when in battery that really matters.

Just for fun, Dave Salyer built this Springfield Range officer for me. Yes, this 10 shot group is out of Ransom Rest and it is at 50 yards. Small circle is 1.5" and large circle is 3".
Phil

Contact Craig Griswold

https://www.ossa.org/state-directors.html

So do we take it, from that statement, that both of you can hold better & shoot smaller groups, or more consistent groups, off hand, one handed at 50 yards, than the gun can do from an RR?

MM

That's a good shooting gun for the investment if the GS charges were $1200.

MM

WHATEVER GAVE YOU THAT IDEA?

I was able to do it just once, too many decades ago, with a pretty loose 1911, two handed, at 25 yards, and over sandbags. I’ve seen others do it, and with better guns too.

This is not possible with a revolver, though.

The S&W K-38 Target Masterpiece (Model 14) is a marvelous performer, which doesn’t get enough credit these days, though its 18-3/8” twist rate is a bit too slow, such that 148gr. hollow base wadcutter bullets from midrange target loads begin to show evidence of instability (yaw) at 50 yards on cooler days. The 14” twist rate of Colt barrels was considered much better, hence the creation of the “Smolt” (aka “Smython”) modified Model 14 revolver for PPC in the ‘70s. That same barrel swap modification was made to Ruger DA revolvers too, which were then called, appropriately enough, “Cougers.”

Of course not. I was talking about the merits of using a Ransom Rest, didn't intend to imply anything concerning my abilities or lack of.
Phil