I have a Ruger Hunter 45 which has a 7.5" barrel. My current load is 24.5 gr Imr 4227 which clocks 1200 fps+ with 250 XTP's. I would like to get some more velocity out of it. What is the highest dose of Imr 4227 you guys use safely? I have a lot of Power Pistol that I feed my 45 Super in doses of 10.5 grains with 200 gr RNFP's. I get 1285 fps with that. I have not tried Power Pistolin the 45 Colt yet so I am curious if any of you have?

I am not looking to redline my loads to the ragged edge but I am convinced I could safely get 'em up another 100 fps or so. Opinions?

My opinion is that 1200 fps with a 250 grainer is already a helluva load. Not trying to be a smart aleck but what exactly could 1300 fps do that 1200 would not? One of your loads would probably blow my Schofield in two.

If you want more, move up to the 454 Casull, you are at the upper reaches in my opinion for the .45 Colt, even in a Ruger. I use H-110 under the Speer 260 JHP and am getting 1180 out of it, without signs of presure and good accuracy. I am comfortable right there. Just my thoughts.

I put a 250 grain hard cast SWC end to end through a 300# hog, and that was using Blue Dot powder at around 950 fps.
That was just one of several hogs that the load has handled.

1200 fps is MORE than enough

Can't see how a 250 gr. .45" slug at 1200+ is going to bounce off much.

FWIW, I'm running 10 gr. of Unique under a 280 gr. WFN in a 5.5" Ruger SS Bisley Blackhawk (AccuSport version), for about 1050ish. EASY to shoot, more accurate than I am, and I doubt seriously whether it won't go through anything I hit with it.

Very true what the fellas said, you just do not need to shoot faster.
The thing I question is the use of 4227? I did extensive tests with the stuff when I shot IHMSA using the .44 and .45. It goes crazy when the gun warms and gets worse and worse the hotter the gun gets. Velocity and pressure continue to rise at a rapid rate. It was very accurate from a cold gun only but shots are limited before the POI starts to go lower and lower.
The powder does not show this with other calibers like the .357 max, etc.
I think for the heavy loads you want, 296 and H110 would be a better choice. Even then the most accurate loads will be just under max. Never reduce loads with these powders below book minimum charges.
Whatever powder you choose, look for accuracy, not velocity, the .45 is a fantastic round without going crazy. The gun will actually kill lighter game like deer better then the .454 but I won't get into reasons now.

here

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

Hmmm. Well, My gun likes that load. It'll put three in one ragged hole at 50 yds off the sand bags. It has digested many of them too. With the Leupold M8-4X atop it recoils very gently.

I'll be happy with what I have, leave it alone & go hunting. Have yet to take a critter with it but I am going to remedy that soon. Thank you all for the input.

Don't want a Cassull. I am a believer in the 45 Colt to the 'enth degree.

I agree with you on the rounds' capabilities. I simply chose the Imr 4227 load arbitrarily when I began loading for this round. It turned in great accuracy & velocity with the first load I tried listed in Nosler's #4(?). They now show 25 gr max for the 250's. I have not experienced the disparities you speak of but I only fire this gun about 25 rounds annually.

With such wonderful results on my first trip to the range I was good. I am so enamored with my 45 Colt Ruger Hunter that I plan to hunt with it exclusively this season.

I admit that the powder was accurate and I shot one of my smallest groups at 200 meters with it. It only gives trouble with a hot gun in the .44 and .45, although it was not as bad in the .45. It was so bad in the .44 that shooting at the last 200 meter ram I had 16 clicks more elevation then the first ram and still hit the ground 50 meters short.
296 cured it right now and I won Ohio state with 79 out of 80 with my SBH.
Many, many shooters were using 4227 at the time but their scores were zip, some with only 5 out of 40. None would listen that it was not them, it was the powder.
If you shoot a cold gun for a few shots or one shot at a deer, it is OK but be aware if you are working loads or shooting in hot weather, you might never find a sweet spot. What happens with your gun between -20* and over 100* in the summer?
When you keep looking your gun over to see what broke or if the barrel bent, might not a better powder cure it? Why do so many ignore experience?
Same as Lil'Gun. I tried it in a Freedom .357 and after 12 shots the barrel was a soldering iron. I set the gun on the bench and touched a piece of plastic by accident and it MELTED! Who in the world would want that heat in a fine barrel? Shall we talk about erosion? I don't like to put a welding torch down my barrels.

Partner, at 24.5 grains, you are already 4.5 grains over what I consider to be about maximum - and you're using a jacketed bullet to my easy-sliding lead ones on top of that!

Not so, 25.5 to 26 is max with 4227 depending on whether it is IMR or Hodgdon. But even 21 gr will flatten primers when the gun is warm. To defend a poor powder for the application only shows you are happy with the "bang" the gun makes and not if a target is hit.
All of the fellas here need proof from you. Take a large cardboard target to 100 yd and shoot 40 rounds at a small target on it. Then post us a picture.

H110/296 is crap when temps get colder, a poor powder only IMO for the application (hunting in cold weather)....and is even less stable at high temps in long narrow cases (22 Hornet especially), when you are looking for MAX speed. You can espouse the caveats, but yes, mag caps, chronographed, shot at paper with dead game....

Lil'Gun is actually BETTER at low temps (it can easily be below zero here) as it ignites easier, less a magnum cap, with far better ES, per Hodgdon 45 Colt data. If loading it to the gills, yes, it is slightly hotter, in hot weather, but I have seen no glowing red or branding irons.

Guess all magnum powders suck? To say powders do weird things when everything is hotter than hell is no revelation. It just means loads were not worked up as hot as you were going to get everything, which is folly if you like to shoot a lot.

I said [bleep] it and use a moderate 20 grs of Lil Gun with a 325 LBT WFN GC; all work from now on will be done with 13 grs. Blue Dot and a 300 WFN, niether will give me surprises. Both for 45 Colt....



FWIW, a friend of mine uses 20 grs. IMR 4227 with 250 XTP's or my 260 LFN's, shoots fist sized groups at 50 yds, and deer much closer....he does not and will not shoot seriously heavy loads.

Rocky has nothing to prove; we find him a valuable source of info, a careful reloader(maybe to save his aging face (grins), and he is not a braggart....he does know more than many about powders. He even has a personality when outside the reloading forums.

It sounds like you read more then you shoot! I never use a mag primer in the .44 or .45, only a Federal 150. Mag primers triple groups. I also hunt in very cold below zero weather all the way to very hot summer heat without a problem with 296. I just don't know where this problem came from except from not knowing how to load to start with.
Fist size groups at 50??? That would piss me off at 200 yards! My revolvers shoot around and under 1/2" at 50 yards. Most will hold 1" to 1-1/4" at 100 yards.
I have nothing to prove either, I pass along information gleaned from experience to make a revolver shoot as good as most rifles.
However I can prove what I have learned and I don't need a keyboard. I will post some pictures.

Five shots at 50 yards with my .45 Vaquero.

Five shots at 50 yards from the .44. I shot the can at 100 yards and was hitting low so I aimed higher for the last shot.

well, any one can post pictures.....................

I was wondering why you have to appear so argumentative about all this.

There is something about a new member with a big [bleep] attitude that frankly turns folks off. Just saying....................

Oh yeah, Rocky has forgotten more about loading than you have ever read.

Three shot drop test at 200 yards with .44 SBH.

How about 50 yard groups with the 45-70. Notice the sighter target on the left for deer hunting. First five in 3/4" and next five in 7/16".
Yeah sure, forgot more then me. 56 years of working with guns makes me a beginner.
Get off the pot and show me just how good you load your ammo! Show me how much you know about powder!
Nothing worse then a keyboard bragger. How many hundreds more pictures would I need to post before any of you dared post ONE?
As usual, my pictures will end a thread.

.475 boolit tests at 50 yards. Large center target 200 yards and two right targets shot at 100. Can shot twice at 100. Strange 296 works so good!
A new guy asks a question and all he gets is misleading information from experts that can't show a thing. I can continue posting pictures for days and the keyboard shooters will call me all kinds of names but are afraid to show anything.
If anybody can show pictures how about putting your money where your mouth is?
Oh yeah, I forgot, one guy forgot more then I ever learned!

No loss of velocity with H110 from summer to winter, huh? Is a Fed. 150 hotter than a 155, CCI 350 or Win LP?

You surely don't know how the [bleep] to work up loads either, other than just saying a gun is "hot" and the powder sucks. Maybe your just getting what you give?

Yep, keyboard....



There is seven deer. I shot four of them; one with a handgun (45 Colt), with Lil' Gun no less...

This was shot at almost 80 yds., once, with a dose of H110 (25.5 grs. and a Fed.155M , 280 gr bullet).

Accuracy.....and groups.


How about this target at 125 yds (rangefider verified it) from a 445 SuperMag? The mess is from a softnosed cast slug using AA1680. Keyboard....



Of course I have shot deer with Blue Dot as well, all does 'cept a dead on his feet, not in his mind mulie for a friend.

The crappy Lil'Gun, again, at 2,800 fps. with a cast bullet from the Hornet; On a summer day....


Reading....



And Rocky, all his does is read too (and write).. Well, you might find him in the "Ask The Gunwriters" section. You won't like it, as you are more apt to tell...

If you have nothing to prove, why are you so adamant others must, especially since you are NEW here?

Can I play?

First target shot, 25 yards, with the first load tried in a brand new 5.5" Ruger Bisley Blackhawk SS (AccuSport version):




Of course, that's just crappy ol' Unique (10.0 grains) under a 280 gr. WFN hardcast, WW cases and primers.

Did I mention that was two-handed, off-hand?

Yours was sans scope as well.......

The BFR 45/70 has a nice long throat. You could try seating your bullets out closer to the end......and your not the only one who has one.

The shot low in the 9-ring (5 o'clock) was the first. Adjust sights. Low 10-ring (7 o'clock) was the second; adjusted again. Third shot was 3 o'clock, 10-ring; slight adjustment. There are 9 shots (IIRC) in that x-ring cluster. Obviously, I didn't think it needed further adjustment......

Obviously it needs 175 more yards, diff powder, a scope and more adjustment (grins)

Naw, I think I'll just stick with that load and kill stuff with it, as is.

Assuming, of course, the bullet don't fail.................

With any luck, after 56 years of reloading, I won't be a dick...(fingers crossed).



Bullets only work on paper (grins).

Or, how about this one, from a factory Kel-Tec PF-9 with Speer GoldDot factory loads (of course) at 10 yards, again, offhand?

Seems some bullets only do.........

You've got a few years to work on fixin' that problem..........

Oh, and if you believe the 56 year track record, I've got a bridge that I need to sell................

I believe most people, until they lie.....

Unless others I know are credible tell me they are a liar beforehand....

I just figure people are [bleep], until proven otherwise.

Saves time and hassle.............

You need to get outta VA.....(grins).

occupational hazard, bro'

You see, the normal thing happened! It has gone downhill including masked swearing. The discussion was about powder with someone saying ball powder will not work in the cold and needs a mag primer. I posted pictures of groups shot under conditions from -10* to almost 100* using 296 with several calibers using a LP standard primer without any change. Larger cases need a mag primer for better accuracy but still fired fine with a standard primer as all were tested.
The 45-70 shows there is a powder that works with a short barrel and performs any time of the year.
Not once did I ask how anyone shoots or how far or how many deer you kill.
All I want is proof that 4227 works perfect in the .44 or .45 if you shoot far enough and with enough shots to show me exactly how wrong I am.
I have proven that 296 works but most of you avoid what I have asked and jump all over the place with derogatory remarks instead of showing any intelligence and desire to prove anything.
I asked you to go to 50, 100 or more yards and shoot enough shots to heat the gun with your 4227 loads and show the targets. I would also like to see chrono results and a picture of the primers. Shoot 30 or 40 shots with no more the 5 or 6 minutes between each 5 shots. Better if it is a hot day in the sun.
I would do the test but would be called a liar.
When you come back, I will return. As of now the level of knowledge here does not warrant further response.
I have no idea why the moderator allows some of you.

H110/296 not working in the cold is news to me. It's the only powder I use in my .44s and .475 in 100+ degree heat and below zero temperatures. Whoever fed you that nonsense knows not what they speak of.

I know bfrshooter personally and have hunted extensively with him. He can shoot circles around most and he has been reloading longer than many of us here have been on this earth, me included. So, when he speaks of his personal findings, you would be well served to listen.

BTW -- that isn't scope on his .45/70, it's a red dot (Ultradot 30).

Why the hostility?

I assume you just hit reply and aren't talking to me.....are you? I am agnostic on the powder issue.


You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me?.....T. Bickle

Nope. Not talking to you. You assumed correctly.

I run 23 grains of Enforcer with the 225 grain barnes for 1450fps

23 grains of H110 with 300 grain speers for 1300fps

20.5 grains of H110 with 325's for 1200fps. all loads with Starline brass, Ruger with a 7.3" barrel.

the only time i had problems with 110 is when i tried to makc my own load with 230 hardball, not enuff powder made a sqib load that left the bullet half way down the barrel.

Sam explains in a nutshell.....with good advice, if your ego allows you to absorb it; but I suspect you will just post pictures of your targets.

I'm willing to bet bfrshooter has a couple decades over most here, so he's not wet behind the ears. So, newbie status means you know nothing? Post count is significant? Not in my world. He was offering good advice and he got jumped on.

Never had a problem with H-110/296 in cold weather and that includes 7 years living and hunting in Alaska. H-110/296 was recommended to me for top end loads in the 45 Colt by none other than John Linebaugh and Ross Seyfried and I use only H-110/296 for my top ends loads in the 45 Colt and have enjoyed nothing but great performance and accuracy from those powders. I look no farther than H-100/296 for my top end loads

Man, I shoulda checked back on this thread sooner, huh?

Or maybe not, LOL!

bfr, it may have been unclear, but my post about 24.5 grains of 4227 being over WHAT I CONSIDER MAXIMUM (emphasis intended) was directed at the original poster, Reloder28. He then posted a time or two more saying that the higher load was apparently fine in his gun, that he shot only a few of them a year and that he was therefore happy.

In your zeal to bang the table and shout, you might not have noticed that Reloder28 has left the room. You might want to wipe that foam off your lips; the animal control guy over there is starting to look at you all squinty and he's slowly reaching for his capture stick.

John,

Velocity loss, from summer to winter, is why I don't care for it, IME. If you say there is no velocity loss, then our experiences disagree. If you say Lil'Gun is worse in that regard, again, our experiences vary. I'd also bet you weren't using a 250 gr. bullet in a Ruger 45 Colt I don't like the stuff and I've burned plenty of it.

Some think I4227 sucks when its hot, yet the world goes round...

The advice was hard to find; It was hard to see the bird for all the feathers, Whitworth.

jwp, How you been doing BTW?

Nate

I do not recall banging the table until those that know more started on me. I only posted relevant findings that 296 or H110 works. My findings that 4227 is a very poor choice in the .44 and .45 is also true but some decided that is another item to jump on me with out any true experience or testing. Since no proof I am wrong other then lip service is ever to be forthcoming, I feel I am justified in lashing back. Although it has been tempered without cuss words some of the experts here use. I notice you did not berate their performance! They are the ones a moderator should be looking at. I am the only one that offered any proof for what I say.
By the way, I am totally blown away with 10 yard groups and holy crap, they were shot off hand to boot!
I have much to share after years and years learning what a revolver needs to be accurate but I just can not compete with all the experts here so go on listening to them and shooting a gun capable of out shooting most rifles at a level capable of paper at 7 yards.
It seems that the number of posts here is proof of competence.

I believe this all proves that in handloading, as in many other interests, my FACT, may not necessarly be anothers FACT, and we could all be more tactfull in responce.

I agree, you would think knowledge is more important then ego. I have nothing to gain from what I post. I get no money. I only try to help. Why are some rubbed the wrong way? Am I treading on a long established expert status gained from a lot of posts?
We shoot way smaller then 1/2" groups at 50 yards, sub 1" at 100 and shoot steel to 500 meters with revolvers. Deer fall like dominoes in season. Now if my best was 3" at 25 yards and someone was doing better, don't you think I would ask for help?
That is not the case here. Experts do not want to be bumped off the ladder. Their ego surpasses the quest to get better or to learn.
I am not here to bump anyone, but to make you even better.
I am so sorry that I have done all the work and some of you think you know better because you have a reputation to uphold.
My friends and I shoot the smallest groups at every range then anyone in the world has ever shot with revolvers and we have no ego at all. To pass on what we have learned is a passion for us. But we tread on little peoples toes that can't accept it.
So for this site, I will stop posting solutions to gain accuracy. It is your loss.

I tend to listen to somebody regardless of tenure, if they have something worthwhile to say. Still, it is a bit offputting for folks who are new or relatively so, to the Campfire, to immediately start bickering with those who are established.

That said, I've used 110/296 and 4227 in 44 Mag. reloads and found them to all be fine. I doubt the 45 Colt is much different as the two cartridges are very similar in capacity. If these powders were so temperature-sensitive, how have WW and Remington/UMC factory cartridges worked for so long?

At any rate, no need to immediately resort to insults.

It is because 4227 acts up when the GUN gets hot. It is not used in the factory loads.
I have explained that 4227 works until you need to shoot strings of shots that heat the gun. Hot sun on the gun can also effect POI. I did not come to this lightly and I tried to make the powder work because it was so accurate if only a few shots were taken or the gun was cold.
The powder is fantastic in other calibers and does not show this effect. In some calibers accuracy is real bad. It is like any other powder that has certain applications.
I have never said it is a bad powder, only that in some calibers it will not work. I use it a lot but it will never go in my .44 or .45.
I have not tried it in the .475 because 296 does it all. For a lighter load HS-6 will punch small groups at 50 yards.

bfrshooter, I assure you that the members of this board are friendly, helpful and draw on the experiences of many lifetimes when it comes to reloading.

I can also assure you that the people here will give you all the respect you deserve -- however little that may be.

Rocky,

You have a way with words! You made me smile, which people tell me I don't do often.

Norm

heheh

Reloader 28, I have heard similar words in your post before twice in my lifetime! Now both times the fellows that owned those Rugers were very very lucky and plan stupid.

They too were trying to get every ounce of velocity out of their pistols and wanted to see just how many oak planks they could indeed push a 250 grain bullet through.

The end results were 2 Ruger pistols that they ruined! One pistol split the cylinder in half, both pistols had badly bent straps on them and thank GOD nobody got killed in the process.

Well, if you want more POWER, best for you to just move up to the Ruger 460, a 240 grn bullet at 2000fps or the 300 grn bullet at 1650fps. However, you better have one hellova grip on that pistol come time to pull the trigger! I shoot mine at 1400fps using a 240 grain bullet and it hollars let me tell ya.

Or just use a heavier bullet in the 45 Colt, or one that can compress the powder a little if using H110....like it does in most 44 's, especially in colder weather .

Speed bleeds off pretty fast with that "light" weight for a 45; 300's up are better and use H110 more efficiently; more so than any 250 gr..

Did I miss something here? Ruger makes a 460? When the hekk did that happen...

Hey, what happened? We agree for a change. All of my groups are shot with heavy boolits. The .44 is 330 gr and the .45 is 343 gr. 296 loads are high enough without being over max but below it.
Velocity means nothing but accuracy is the only thing needed.
My .45 at 1167 fps will shoot through a 16" tree and busts deer like crazy.
I posted my pictures to show what can be done without going nuts with speed and that how a round is loaded is more important.
We might never agree on powders and primers but you need to determine that for yourself.
I might come across in a bad way to some but what you need to understand is that I want ALL of you to shoot revolvers the best you can.
I have no problem spending a year to help but negative responses turn me off. It seems someones ego is at stake. But if you think I am blowing smoke that my friends and I shoot the smallest revolver groups ever shot on a consistent basis, then you just have to show me and tell me what you do. Please, no 7, 10 or 25 yard stuff. The worst loads I ever made shoot small groups at close range. I want to know what lets you shoot one hole groups at 50 yards and 1/2" groups at 100. So does everyone else or is it a big secret?
No, I am NOT being a smart ass, I am searching for information for every revolver shooter because I will use it and share it.
If you are top dog you can stay there, but if I can help elevate you and you refuse, not my fault. If you can help me and refuse, not my fault either.
For a lot of years I have been called a liar and that my targets are shot at 10 yards. Every single thing I post was disputed and I have been threatened with being tossed off sites and the reason has always been a top dog that is afraid of losing his position. I am not here for that. I am here to teach what I know and to learn what you know. Now there are sites that guys repeat what I have posted and some are shooting very good indeed.
Funny that 24 hour campfire is the very worst site of all. A small bunch that feel they are top dogs and reinforce each other.
I had the same thing on another site until I was getting a lot of private messages and E mails. We became fast friends and even went on a hunt together. A super wonderful bunch of guys that used to pound on me. Now we get along just great.
What I am saying to all of you is to lighten up, stop cussing and learn from each other and realize I am not better then anyone else or shoot better then anyone else but just might know something that will aid all of you from years and years of work. Stop looking at the number of posts I have made here.
We have to be friends and discuss things in a rational way. I have no desire to sit on the top of any heap.

There was this guy from Alaska that got on here and started telling us about shooting his 7mm-08 in skinny barreled rifles and making first shot hits at 700 yards. Not many people believed him at first either.

Please stick around......... (hint to others there).





(Oh, and this is a real inside joke, but if you have kids and duct tape, please keep them separate...)

Rollin' in the aisles...

We prolly agreed all along, yet asking Rocky to prove himself left me a little irritated, since he is a very good guy that you don't know (being a Campfire member isn't always about guns) new people just like to jump in with "mine is better than yours". Believe me, that was me; sometimes still is.

The thread regarded a 250 gr. bullet/Ruger 45 Colt loads and getting the most speed out of it, which lead to I4227 not being good at high temps and myself not loving H110/296 at low temps; not without reason.

Also, you stated not to reduce below specified minimum. What can be less than 19,000 CUP for 45 Colt can be over Ruger Colt levels of 35,000 CUP for the 44 Magnum, per Hodgdon, and even lower in manuals that refuse to have 32,000 CUP loads, like Nosler.

H110 likes a touch of compression and with a 250gr. 45/Ruger load it generally isn't there, even with some 300gr. LBT designs that seat flush with the cylinder face. Throw a temp swing of 80 degrees and you might find you agree with me and my chronograph and why I don't use H110 for my deer loads. It is also a reason why you aren't happy with 180 gr. 44's and a case of H110 either. Throw a 110gr. from a 357 in there too.

I do not deer hunt with my 335 or 360 gr. LBT's. Yes, I have shot them...

This was before I didn't know how to load

This isn't about any king of the hill; it is also not about a turnip truck either...

I hope the rancor is behind us....

I have enjoyed all of the POSITIVE input.

TONK - I always appreciate your input and certainly appreciate your concern for possible torturing of my way cool revolver. Honestly, I am not one to redline my stuff and do not think my current load of 24.5 gr's Imr 4227 is torturing my gun right now.

BFR Shooter - I plan to watch my loads in the summer heat. Once I had this particular & only load I shoot worked up, it was putting three in a row into one big ragged hole at 50 yds. I wsih I still had that target to show but I don't. Due to your concern for my use of I4227 I plan to watch it very closely for any signs of excess in both cold & hot. My typical hunting temperature venues range from 26 degrees to over 100 degrees.

To all - I love seeing these target pics. That is what I love about the 45 Colt, no matter who the shooter is or what they are shooting it is a consistent performer.

I am looking forward to more field time with my pair of Ruger Hunters.

Thanx for everyone's input. It is valuable info for me.

RL28, i dont think your pushing that ruger too hard either. Hodgden #26 has a max of 25.5 of IMR4227, for 29000 cup.

I am sure Rocky has forgot more than i know, but why is this load pushing it?

Shooting 1200+ fps seems pretty ballsy to me, just mho but I decided after experimenting with hot loads that if I wanted to load hot I was better off to go to a firearn engineered for heavy loads, I load for accuracy now, I feel my guns are too important to cause premature failure by running loads at the top of the scale (who knows what will happen to gun bans), but I always enjoy seeing the results of other brave shooters who do so:)

This is not a criticism in any way for shooters who load hot, it is certainly important to know what your gun can handle, if for some reason you feel you need an extreme load

Pretty impressive:)

As for the ones who are getting shouted down on your posts-
I hope you do not stop posting your loads and comments, there are always a lot of readers who don't neccessarily post who read your comments and appreciate you taking the time to share your information,
thanks again:)

Rosco, I seem to forget more every year, LOL!

I stated that somewhere about 20 to 21 grains of 4227 under a 255 SWCL is what I consider to be about maximum. That isn't pushing it in the sense of a "book" maximum, but is about a "Rocky" maximum. It gives me between 1000 and 1100 fps and would probably shoot lengthwise through any game I might take with it. Recoil and blast levels are moderate, accuracy is all I can use. So why go higher? I can't think of a single good reason.

BTW, that isn't my load. I read about it being worked up by Hank Williams, Jr - who is possibly more of a gun nut than many of us. He gave the load to Mike Venturino, who wrote it up. I tried it, smiled, and there we are. It just about fills the space under the bullet, and it does need a magnum primer and a solid crimp to burn best. I have never had a problem with it in my New Model Blackhawk, hot or cold.

Thanks guys, I hate it when I come across wrong, I do not intend to.
A revolver has very specific needs to be accurate, things you can ignore or even not want in other guns.
First, you do not want soft boolits. This is more important with fast powder that peaks pressure fast. The boolit will set back in the throats and turns to putty when it slams the forcing cone. I am sure some of you have seen .38's using dead soft wad cutters that had lead on the outside of the gun from it squirting out of the gap. The faster the powder, the harder the boolit needs to be. (I do not believe in obturation in ANY gun.)
First of all the throats must be a little over the bore dimensions. .0005" to .001" is about ideal. Then fit the boolit as close as you can to the throats. If the rounds chamber you can go over throat size, only a problem if a portion of the boolit has to enter the throats.
Next is case tension on the boolit and is one reason for a hard boolit. You do not want the brass to size the boolit when seating, you want the boolit to open the brass so you can see ripples on the brass from the boolit base and grease grooves. The more even tension is from case to case the better, lightly held boolits can hit as much as 10" away from tightly held ones. The expander that you use can make or break accuracy. I like Hornady dies for the best accuracy. RCBS fixed dies for the .45 but not any other pistol calibers that I know of. Lyman "M" expanders for soft boolits will ruin a revolvers accuracy. Reserve them for a rifle.
Crimp does nothing but hold boolits under recoil, it will not aid powder burn so only use enough so no boolits move under recoil. Another reason for a hard boolit, if the case shows any sign of crimp left after firing it is ruining the boolit.
The use of a magnum primer in smaller cases like the .44 will have enough pressure to force the boolit out of the brass before good ignition. Each boolit can move a different amount so every shot will have different case capacity at ignition. Primer heat is better then primer pressure. As cases get larger like the .475, magnum primers work better and are more accurate. Even my 45-70 revolver uses LP mag primers, not rifle primers.
WW LP primers work just fine, having more heat then pressure.
Case tension is why H110 and 296 do not cause ignition problems in the .44 and .45 with Federal 150 primers or the WW primers.
I made a test with the .454 using 296 and every SR and SR mag primer. Book starting loads and just above made squib loads that stuck boolits in the barrel. Powder was packed in and only the coating was burned off the back layer. A lot of pressure to move a boolit way up the bore yet no fire.
Over max loads all ignited but accuracy was not to my liking.
I cut down .460 brass and even a LP standard primer ignited the powder with all charges. The Federal 155 and 296 was very accurate. The lesson is that the SR primer choice for the .454 was wrong. S&W and Hornady chose a large pocket for the .460. GOOD CHOICE!
Then, never worry about boolit jump to the forcing cone. Some revolvers are made with cylinders too short to make use of a short jump, but it means nothing with proper case tension. Short cylinders limit what you can load.
If you have a problem with ball powders, look back at how you load and what dies, boolits and hardness you use. The cold weather problems are caused by what you do at the bench, not with the powder.
Well, this is a start for all of you.

Dear BFR Guru,

I have a safe full of revolvers in numerous chamberings and none of them spit lead no matter how soft the bullets are, down to swaged. Elemer keith, Skeeter Skelton and Mike Venturino used bullets as soft as 1-16 or even 1-20 tin-lead with no reported difficulties.

Furthermore, I have recovered some very soft bullets and miraculously, the "putty" seems to have reformed into perfectly shaped bullets!

Please explain how this happens.

It all comes down to the powder and charge you use. I did not say soft boolits will not work but conditions are too tight, WAY TOO TIGHT.
Back in Elmer's day soft lead was used a lot but they still had problems. They tried all kinds of things to solve them. There was the zinc washer on the base, wads of all kinds and then the gas check. Lyman made a mold so you could cast a soft nose, stick it in another mold and cast a hard base. Years and years of work and experimenting, yet revolver accuracy was fleeting to non existent. I grew up in those days. Elmer did a lot of work and was shooting farther then anyone thought possible but he was VERY specific. He also had problems.
I belonged to West Cleveland Rifle and Pistol club long, long ago. The Police department shot there. They found out I worked on guns so I had a lot of their guns to clean. Barrels were packed with lead so no rifling could be seen and the outside of the guns had as much leading as the inside.
I can say for a fact that you did not get in line with their cylinder gaps when they were shooting. Plywood baffles were put in between shooting points. There were particles of lead stuck in all of the plywood.
I can take one of my revolvers and with a hard boolit of the right size, poke almost one hole at 50 yards. Moving to a 50-50 alloy with a GC boolit I will get some great accuracy but a few fliers show up. Shooting the same design boolit without a gas check will quadruple groups.
What do suppose is happening?
You say you get no spitting! How do you know? Do you hold your hand alongside the gap?
Sure a recovered boolit still looks like a boolit when sized to the bore, what do you expect, a moon rocket? But what did it do in transition?
The proof is in the pudding, and I hate to say it again, but show us groups at 50 yards and farther. How often do you need to remove leading? How many shots before you spray the landscape?
I have to clean my revolver cylinder every few months when the powder residue starts to gum the lube on the pin and the cylinder gets stiff. I might not clean the bore itself for a year. I never have a loss in accuracy. My loads are also stable to 500 meters and I plan on shooting 800 yards this summer.
I have explained it so it is up to you to prove me wrong.
You see the groups I shoot on a regular basis and all of my friends do the same or better. If you are doing better, don't hide behind a keyboard. I want to know your exact loads and boolits, calibers and I want to see your long range group pictures. Did I tell you I hate a gun that just goes "BANG".

Outstanding information:) Do you have any targets with results to 500 yds? I would like to see your groups at these ranges,
Thanks:)

bfr, I'm not arguing, and I won't. Some of what you say has been common knowledge for a century. Some other tidbits are more your opinion than proven fact. Some have explanations different than you propose. And still other ideas of yours are -charitably- far-fetched.

I will not get into an "Oh, yeah? Well..." contest with you. Nor will I descend to posting pictures of groups I claim to have shot at long range to "prove" anything. My published articles have plenty of them already.

I will leave it at this: anyone who waltzes into a chat forum and proclaims himself the ultimate expert at something, the best shot in the world or the teacher of all truth will be taken as a blowhard. You claim all three. Some of what you claim may have value. But that's up to us to say, not you.

It would be more help to just tell him to unscrew a barrel from the gun and fire these loads or have him measure the driving bands before and after firing. Obturation effects soft more than hard, the base is the most effected, and is harder on the lube as pressures go up. Mild loads are generally forgiving.

Some do not want to dink with oversized throats; the soft bullets, obturation, and mild pressure make them work just fine at hunting ranges, and the critters do not know.

I agree on the balanced hard lead bullet. Hard bullets maintain their balance better, if dimensioned to the throat. They will still skid when travelling through a throat when hitting the rifling, just not as much. To get high speed, accuracy at high pressure the bullet needs its balance....hard bullets do this.

Tension and the H110.....not exactly. The bullet needs little airspace ( it needs some compression), a crimp and grip like you describe.
Crimping/seating tight alone does not help it all the way; heavy bullets for caliber, ones that are compressed work best.

Seating a 456 sized 260gr. bullet tight in a case on a starting load of H110 does not make it effecient, and surely not in cold weather. Make that pill a 360gr. and you have better odds.
But then most don't tote a cylinder full of those heavies for deer. Also, just because the bullet may be heavy, it may not seat in the case deep, have as much "tension" or compress the powder; these bullets range from 260 to 360grs.


Lots of different experiences.

I never claimed to know it all and am still learning. But I have figured out a lot with revolvers. I was doing and figuring out things long before one of the gun writers got on RCBS for making expanders too large. I would have to search through hundreds of books to find it. RCBS responded by changing the .45 dies.
Call me what you want, if you think I am a blowhard, you are wrong. Just because I am new here does not make you an expert either and the blowhard you claim me to be applies to you also.
Without testing a single thing or actually showing proof that you can do better and that all I said is wrong, you are just putting yourself into a deeper hole.
I did not give information to topple you from your lofty perch but to give you something to think about and to try. To just jump in and call me names shows very little intelligence on your part. What have you done to distinguish you as knowing it all?

Not so. you do not need a heavy bullet. I won Ohio state with my SBH with a 240 gr bullet and 23 gr of 296 and a Federal 150 primer. I shot 79 out of 80. I shot many 38's, 39's and 40's out of 40 with this load. I left IHMSA shortly after because of a move and expense.
You are correct that under size boolits will never shoot and you show a great bunch of boolits. Neither will boolits that do not match the twist at the velocity attainable. Twist is another full page. Everyone ignores it with revolvers. A boolit MUST be shot at the velocity the twist will stabilize it at.
I feel you know a lot more then you let on.

In 45 Colt?

Load the same weight and powder charge and you have an ineffecient load in 45 Colt; unless?

Betting 44 Mag...

Yes, .44. However my .45 Vaquero responds the same with appropriate loads. Even starting loads with a 250 gr shoot very well with groups getting smaller as I go up. Then once the accurate point is found any change up with the load will slowly open groups.
I do like heavy hard cast because once I started just using my revolvers for deer I had poor penetration with the lighter jacketed bullets. I recovered all of the bullets. I prefer two holes for a lot of blood on the ground.
Getting cast boolits to shoot as good or better then jacketed was the challenge. It took a LOT of work. I had to start making my own molds to get what I wanted. All of the groups I showed were shot with my boolits except a few with Lee boolits and one with a Lyman.
I have dropped several deer with the .45 at just over 100 yd's off hand, last season it was 76 yards and there were many around 40 to 50 yards. The .44 has never let me down either but I love the .475 best of all.
The most important thing is that my boolits go exactly to the sights not counting trajectory at long range. Anything over 100 yards needs some holdover. My 45-70 drops 26 feet at 500 meters (547 yards.) so I need to hold on a tree branch to clang a steel ram. I kept 4 out of 5 on a 6" swinger at 400 yards with the .475 by aiming at the top of the 500 meter berm. I was shooting Creedmore from the side of my leg.
Don't let anyone tell you a WLN or WFN goes haywire past 50 yards. They out shoot any semi wadcutter ever made.

My .45 hunting loads are the 335 LBT WLNGC, my 335 gr WFNPB, the Lyman 325 gr (342 with my alloy.) and the Lee 300 gr, all with 21.5 gr of 296 and the Federal 150 primer. All boolits have shot 1" groups at 75 yards.
The .44 with the 320 LBT WLNGC and the Lee 310 gr uses 21.5 gr also. My 330 gr WLNGC uses 21 gr. All Federal standard 150's.
If I miss, it is me, I am the weak link. My revolvers surpass my ability to hit. I will not tolerate a gun that shoots were it is not aimed.

How does a .45, 342 gr penetrate at 1167 fps. This tree is 16" in diameter. The lower hole is my .45 Vaquero, the top hole is a .475. The grape vine also has chunks out. We did not find the boolits after digging up the holes in the ground.
What animal will stop them?

I don't. I also don't let anyone tell me H110 in certain loads is fine as temps decrease

Of course, long heavyweight bullets are best. I do have a 200gr. WFNGC in .433 and a 200gr. WFNPB in .453. After 75 yds. they get a little weak. It is possible to have a Keith bullet that is longer shoot better just because of weight and some guns also just shoot the Keith bullet better, so long as the nose that hangs in air is balanced and bullets are sized nose first. That, of course, is asking a lot.

Generally, apples to apples, the LBT deforms less, and other than land engagement, is in its final form from loading to recovery (if you can recover it) in a hardened alloy.

It is interesting to note in Elmer Keith's Sixguns that he created the WFN style in a 280 and 300gr. version for the 45 Colt. Of course the cylindrical nose was bore ride to fit in many guns, his alloy was comparatively soft, (it of course did not shoot well) and there was no 45 at the time that would handle his loads with these bullets. He remarks how well they killed...

It was a long heavy bullet that had little stability and bearing length for its size.

I'm sure you already know all of this, but here goes...

It still can be, even more so because most guns, particularly rifles, are designed to shoot jacketed bullets.

Lead, even in its most hardened state, is always soft and has a lower temperature/friction tolerance. Because of this, it requires support in the throat, from lands and grooves and can strip engagement if not pampered at times.

Straight wall cases, like most revolvers, really like cast once dimensions and timing are all corrected. I do not shoot any jacketed bullets in any wheelgun I own or buy anymore; none at all.

Getting jacketed equivalent loads from long-barreled bottleneck rifle cartridges with lead (and getting accuracy) is a lot more work at times....even though they appear to be easier.

Please expound. Explain timing & why you don't shoot jacketed.

Timing is the alignment of your cylinder throat with the forcing cone. It is important to understand that it is when the hammer falls; not when the gun is cocked in battery. You can check with an UNLOADED gun and a light in the cylinder gap from both sides.

Most mass produced guns have this issue to minor degrees. Line boring is a good way to cure this.

Sometimes you find when slugging a barrel that a jacketed bullet never hits the grooves, and powder can and does blow by.

A long, hard bullet is more apt to resist this mis-alignment and stay in shape.

I don't shoot jacketed for cost/quantity and cast tends to be just and sometimes more accurate, particularly in straight-wall carts and handguns. They can also be loaded to much lower levels and I can fit a bullet to the dimensions of the gun (throat, cone, groove, and muzzle) and QC is up to you.

Another plus is dictating expansion with velocity and seating bullets flush with the cylinder, which also helps alignment and/or allows a heavier and more accurate load.





Some new bullets like the Belt Mountain Punch and the Barnes now being advertised are just manufacturer's ways of doing what casters have done for years. They just cost more...and you can't control the outcome nor tailor it to your needs or wants, or have a crimp groove where you want it.

There is nothing wrong with jacketed bullets; I just prefer to use my own stuff for handguns

The only thing we can disagree on is temperatures. However Keith was ahead of his time in the way he shot revolvers. But Keith did not design the semi wad cutter. He just liked it and improved it to fit his guns. The problem is the shoulder was not needed and too many mold makers tinkered with the nose and everything else. The shoulder was only retained from the wad cutter for a round hole in paper. It has zero effect on game with the nose meplat doing the work. If Keith would have just gone a little farther and made the shoulder go away, he would have been happier.
The truncated cone aligns itself better in the forcing cone as did the original Keith but mold makers ruined the boolit and just the shoulder hit the forcing cone first. The nose lost steerage.
My best boolit for the .44 has a nose angle the same as the forcing cone.
I found it is hard to ruin a truncated cone boolit and have changed drive bands and grease grooves with zero effect on accuracy.
The Keith style, even with a bore ride nose has not given me the accuracy I want. They shot good for me years ago until I found revolvers would do better. All the most accurate jacketed bullets were never semi wad cutters, so why were cast? Veral changed my thinking with his LBT boolits and they are the standard for accuracy and surpass the Keith in all ways. I feel he has had more effect on revolvers then anyone, including Keith or the man that came up with the design.
Why Keith is admired so much (He does deserve it) and Veral is not elevated to making the most accurate design is beyond my thinking. But then who was first? The jacketed bullet makers or Veral? Did he just copy what worked? I do not know the history of the design.
Even though I liked Keith and will always respect the impact he had, he was not the final word. He was just a beginning. He made what we have today possible.

I guess we have to agree to disagree again. I have never, ever found boolit jump to hurt accuracy. Every single boolit or bullet I shoot has a different jump. This BFR 45-70 has the most and is the most accurate revolver I have ever shot and maybe the best in the world. Looking in the front of a cylinder needs a flashlight to see the boolit nose.
Gun makers make a mistake with short cylinders to reduce jump when it means nothing at all. All it does is limit boolits that can be loaded. It is an old wives tale with no basis in fact.

OK, OK, in the old days with dead soft lead, a boolit could skid halfway down the barrel with a long jump. GAS CHECKS, what a wonderful idea! But some genius discovered that hard lead is even better and with a gas check, better yet, gee how strange can you get? Today there is no need to have a boolit flush with the front of the cylinder.

There most certainly is: the balance of the bullet.

No matter what material it is made of: gilding metal, copper, turned bronze and especially lead, the bullet will strip at the engagement after traveling through a throat, although actual bullet diameter and hardness cuts this down.

In the picture I posted above, the nose is pure lead. By making it jump more it will strip enough that the rifling does not hold until the hardened partition is reached. As you know, the harder it is pushed, the softer the lead, the farther it will skid down the bullet. Opening an opposite land rotational gap opens up the chances for leading and lube stress, just like what can happen with the softest alloys and high heat/pressure.

I do not have a "correct" answer for you, only that in a fixed chamber rifle and cast bullets pushed to jacketed levels you will not want bullet jump, regardless of how hard you can cast lead or your chosen design. Strange? Not really. Why would you seek it in any gun? Do you insist on gas checks not holding a bullet base at the other end? I doubt it.

Most guys shooting cast want a bullet close to throat shape, low deformation, not mashing lead at unrepeatable angles, another bane of the SWC shoulder. That being said, Elmer posted pictures of groups of 1" at 100 yds. with even soft, skidding alloys. He also shot the heads off of birds more than once with the same. My "proof" to the contrary lacks his substance.

Just because you have made the alloy harder doesn't mean you shouldn't reduce something that is still there.

Also, I didn't come up with the idea. Some guy named Veral Smith did it to allow more powder in a case, lower pressures and in his words "to decrease bullet jump".

I'm betting your BFR 45/70 loads are gentle, speed and pressure wise, another way of not battering your bullet balance, even with long freebored throat.

Veral is not in Elmer's league for legal, ethical and for reasons of his own volition.

His designs came about after a lot of experimentation. He is still refining them. He has carefully made newer versions that do not allow the use of any old lube to get the very best results, the short list includes his own Blue lubes.

This isn't as critical for everyday handgun loads as it is for high velocity/pressure rifle loads.

Some of his older mould designs were better for a wider range of guns and loads. They are more specialized now, but still the very best IMO.

Everything you say is correct and I see nothing for us to disagree on.
True Veral screwed up and he paid the price but when I look at how I am taxed, somehow I don't blame him!
You are also right about the 45-70, velocity without pressure, the ideal set up. I had good accuracy to 1800 fps but the powder was giving pressure excursions every now and then. I dumped that powder fast. Some good groups and then BAM, one out and a stuck case.
We both agree that a boolit skidding is there to stay but as long as the base does not go over land and groove size it is just fine. Boolit hardness and fit control it as pressure changes.
The more we talk the more we find that we think alike. Any small points between us is not worth thinking about.
Too bad you live so far, I made beer and it is working fine.

Yeah, He even got you to spelling it "boolit".

Have a good holiday, sir.

No one appreciates a beer more than I

thanks Rocky, I'd love to spend the day sighting in a few fixed site revolvers with Hank JR. it would be interesting!

The closest I've gotten to meeting HW Jr was getting kicked off his ranch at gun point (well, nearly).

I was fishing the stream that meanders out of his ranch and there was a very tempting pool just beyond the large No Trespassing! signs. Too tempting.

I was waving my little flyrod when I became aware of hoofbeats. Looking up, I beheld a pair of mounted genudamnuine cowboys complete with holstered Colt 45s. They "invited" me to depart - promptly. I did.

If I ever DO meet him, I'll tell him about it - and suggest he give his cowpokes a raise.

Reloader 28

For S&Giggles, I went to my Hodgdon annual and looked up 4227 and the 250 XTP in 45 LC. It does not list the IMR but only the H4227. 24.6 gr is max so you are technically "just" under the max as long as all the signs in "your" gun say the same.

I then went to google and typed in "IMR" and whadda ya know, the Hodgdon site came up. Same story!

IMHO, the only reason to go faster with your load, if you could, is to flatten your trajectory because it should work quite well on deer "as is".

If you want more "umph", you will need to go to a heavier bullet/boolit and I suggest something, heavy, flat nosed and cast from lead (boolit).

Like this.....335 gr WFNGC


Can get you something like this......BIG deer

Actually, "boolit" is the term many reloaders use for cast bullets. It has nothing to do with literacy -- LOL!

I used to be turned off to the use of the term boolit until I figured out it meant cast lead. Now, no problem.