Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Need Input for my 45 Colt

I have enjoyed all of the POSITIVE input.

TONK - I always appreciate your input and certainly appreciate your concern for possible torturing of my way cool revolver. Honestly, I am not one to redline my stuff and do not think my current load of 24.5 gr's Imr 4227 is torturing my gun right now.

BFR Shooter - I plan to watch my loads in the summer heat. Once I had this particular & only load I shoot worked up, it was putting three in a row into one big ragged hole at 50 yds. I wsih I still had that target to show but I don't. Due to your concern for my use of I4227 I plan to watch it very closely for any signs of excess in both cold & hot. My typical hunting temperature venues range from 26 degrees to over 100 degrees.

To all - I love seeing these target pics. That is what I love about the 45 Colt, no matter who the shooter is or what they are shooting it is a consistent performer.

I am looking forward to more field time with my pair of Ruger Hunters.

Thanx for everyone's input. It is valuable info for me.

RL28, i dont think your pushing that ruger too hard either. Hodgden #26 has a max of 25.5 of IMR4227, for 29000 cup.

I am sure Rocky has forgot more than i know, but why is this load pushing it?

Shooting 1200+ fps seems pretty ballsy to me, just mho but I decided after experimenting with hot loads that if I wanted to load hot I was better off to go to a firearn engineered for heavy loads, I load for accuracy now, I feel my guns are too important to cause premature failure by running loads at the top of the scale (who knows what will happen to gun bans), but I always enjoy seeing the results of other brave shooters who do so:)

This is not a criticism in any way for shooters who load hot, it is certainly important to know what your gun can handle, if for some reason you feel you need an extreme load

Pretty impressive:)

As for the ones who are getting shouted down on your posts-
I hope you do not stop posting your loads and comments, there are always a lot of readers who don't neccessarily post who read your comments and appreciate you taking the time to share your information,
thanks again:)

Rosco, I seem to forget more every year, LOL!

I stated that somewhere about 20 to 21 grains of 4227 under a 255 SWCL is what I consider to be about maximum. That isn't pushing it in the sense of a "book" maximum, but is about a "Rocky" maximum. It gives me between 1000 and 1100 fps and would probably shoot lengthwise through any game I might take with it. Recoil and blast levels are moderate, accuracy is all I can use. So why go higher? I can't think of a single good reason.

BTW, that isn't my load. I read about it being worked up by Hank Williams, Jr - who is possibly more of a gun nut than many of us. He gave the load to Mike Venturino, who wrote it up. I tried it, smiled, and there we are. It just about fills the space under the bullet, and it does need a magnum primer and a solid crimp to burn best. I have never had a problem with it in my New Model Blackhawk, hot or cold.

Thanks guys, I hate it when I come across wrong, I do not intend to.
A revolver has very specific needs to be accurate, things you can ignore or even not want in other guns.
First, you do not want soft boolits. This is more important with fast powder that peaks pressure fast. The boolit will set back in the throats and turns to putty when it slams the forcing cone. I am sure some of you have seen .38's using dead soft wad cutters that had lead on the outside of the gun from it squirting out of the gap. The faster the powder, the harder the boolit needs to be. (I do not believe in obturation in ANY gun.)
First of all the throats must be a little over the bore dimensions. .0005" to .001" is about ideal. Then fit the boolit as close as you can to the throats. If the rounds chamber you can go over throat size, only a problem if a portion of the boolit has to enter the throats.
Next is case tension on the boolit and is one reason for a hard boolit. You do not want the brass to size the boolit when seating, you want the boolit to open the brass so you can see ripples on the brass from the boolit base and grease grooves. The more even tension is from case to case the better, lightly held boolits can hit as much as 10" away from tightly held ones. The expander that you use can make or break accuracy. I like Hornady dies for the best accuracy. RCBS fixed dies for the .45 but not any other pistol calibers that I know of. Lyman "M" expanders for soft boolits will ruin a revolvers accuracy. Reserve them for a rifle.
Crimp does nothing but hold boolits under recoil, it will not aid powder burn so only use enough so no boolits move under recoil. Another reason for a hard boolit, if the case shows any sign of crimp left after firing it is ruining the boolit.
The use of a magnum primer in smaller cases like the .44 will have enough pressure to force the boolit out of the brass before good ignition. Each boolit can move a different amount so every shot will have different case capacity at ignition. Primer heat is better then primer pressure. As cases get larger like the .475, magnum primers work better and are more accurate. Even my 45-70 revolver uses LP mag primers, not rifle primers.
WW LP primers work just fine, having more heat then pressure.
Case tension is why H110 and 296 do not cause ignition problems in the .44 and .45 with Federal 150 primers or the WW primers.
I made a test with the .454 using 296 and every SR and SR mag primer. Book starting loads and just above made squib loads that stuck boolits in the barrel. Powder was packed in and only the coating was burned off the back layer. A lot of pressure to move a boolit way up the bore yet no fire.
Over max loads all ignited but accuracy was not to my liking.
I cut down .460 brass and even a LP standard primer ignited the powder with all charges. The Federal 155 and 296 was very accurate. The lesson is that the SR primer choice for the .454 was wrong. S&W and Hornady chose a large pocket for the .460. GOOD CHOICE!
Then, never worry about boolit jump to the forcing cone. Some revolvers are made with cylinders too short to make use of a short jump, but it means nothing with proper case tension. Short cylinders limit what you can load.
If you have a problem with ball powders, look back at how you load and what dies, boolits and hardness you use. The cold weather problems are caused by what you do at the bench, not with the powder.
Well, this is a start for all of you.

Dear BFR Guru,

I have a safe full of revolvers in numerous chamberings and none of them spit lead no matter how soft the bullets are, down to swaged. Elemer keith, Skeeter Skelton and Mike Venturino used bullets as soft as 1-16 or even 1-20 tin-lead with no reported difficulties.

Furthermore, I have recovered some very soft bullets and miraculously, the "putty" seems to have reformed into perfectly shaped bullets!

Please explain how this happens.

It all comes down to the powder and charge you use. I did not say soft boolits will not work but conditions are too tight, WAY TOO TIGHT.
Back in Elmer's day soft lead was used a lot but they still had problems. They tried all kinds of things to solve them. There was the zinc washer on the base, wads of all kinds and then the gas check. Lyman made a mold so you could cast a soft nose, stick it in another mold and cast a hard base. Years and years of work and experimenting, yet revolver accuracy was fleeting to non existent. I grew up in those days. Elmer did a lot of work and was shooting farther then anyone thought possible but he was VERY specific. He also had problems.
I belonged to West Cleveland Rifle and Pistol club long, long ago. The Police department shot there. They found out I worked on guns so I had a lot of their guns to clean. Barrels were packed with lead so no rifling could be seen and the outside of the guns had as much leading as the inside.
I can say for a fact that you did not get in line with their cylinder gaps when they were shooting. Plywood baffles were put in between shooting points. There were particles of lead stuck in all of the plywood.
I can take one of my revolvers and with a hard boolit of the right size, poke almost one hole at 50 yards. Moving to a 50-50 alloy with a GC boolit I will get some great accuracy but a few fliers show up. Shooting the same design boolit without a gas check will quadruple groups.
What do suppose is happening?
You say you get no spitting! How do you know? Do you hold your hand alongside the gap?
Sure a recovered boolit still looks like a boolit when sized to the bore, what do you expect, a moon rocket? But what did it do in transition?
The proof is in the pudding, and I hate to say it again, but show us groups at 50 yards and farther. How often do you need to remove leading? How many shots before you spray the landscape?
I have to clean my revolver cylinder every few months when the powder residue starts to gum the lube on the pin and the cylinder gets stiff. I might not clean the bore itself for a year. I never have a loss in accuracy. My loads are also stable to 500 meters and I plan on shooting 800 yards this summer.
I have explained it so it is up to you to prove me wrong.
You see the groups I shoot on a regular basis and all of my friends do the same or better. If you are doing better, don't hide behind a keyboard. I want to know your exact loads and boolits, calibers and I want to see your long range group pictures. Did I tell you I hate a gun that just goes "BANG".

Outstanding information:) Do you have any targets with results to 500 yds? I would like to see your groups at these ranges,
Thanks:)

bfr, I'm not arguing, and I won't. Some of what you say has been common knowledge for a century. Some other tidbits are more your opinion than proven fact. Some have explanations different than you propose. And still other ideas of yours are -charitably- far-fetched.

I will not get into an "Oh, yeah? Well..." contest with you. Nor will I descend to posting pictures of groups I claim to have shot at long range to "prove" anything. My published articles have plenty of them already.

I will leave it at this: anyone who waltzes into a chat forum and proclaims himself the ultimate expert at something, the best shot in the world or the teacher of all truth will be taken as a blowhard. You claim all three. Some of what you claim may have value. But that's up to us to say, not you.

It would be more help to just tell him to unscrew a barrel from the gun and fire these loads or have him measure the driving bands before and after firing. Obturation effects soft more than hard, the base is the most effected, and is harder on the lube as pressures go up. Mild loads are generally forgiving.

Some do not want to dink with oversized throats; the soft bullets, obturation, and mild pressure make them work just fine at hunting ranges, and the critters do not know.

I agree on the balanced hard lead bullet. Hard bullets maintain their balance better, if dimensioned to the throat. They will still skid when travelling through a throat when hitting the rifling, just not as much. To get high speed, accuracy at high pressure the bullet needs its balance....hard bullets do this.

Tension and the H110.....not exactly. The bullet needs little airspace ( it needs some compression), a crimp and grip like you describe.
Crimping/seating tight alone does not help it all the way; heavy bullets for caliber, ones that are compressed work best.

Seating a 456 sized 260gr. bullet tight in a case on a starting load of H110 does not make it effecient, and surely not in cold weather. Make that pill a 360gr. and you have better odds.
But then most don't tote a cylinder full of those heavies for deer. Also, just because the bullet may be heavy, it may not seat in the case deep, have as much "tension" or compress the powder; these bullets range from 260 to 360grs.


Lots of different experiences.

I never claimed to know it all and am still learning. But I have figured out a lot with revolvers. I was doing and figuring out things long before one of the gun writers got on RCBS for making expanders too large. I would have to search through hundreds of books to find it. RCBS responded by changing the .45 dies.
Call me what you want, if you think I am a blowhard, you are wrong. Just because I am new here does not make you an expert either and the blowhard you claim me to be applies to you also.
Without testing a single thing or actually showing proof that you can do better and that all I said is wrong, you are just putting yourself into a deeper hole.
I did not give information to topple you from your lofty perch but to give you something to think about and to try. To just jump in and call me names shows very little intelligence on your part. What have you done to distinguish you as knowing it all?

Not so. you do not need a heavy bullet. I won Ohio state with my SBH with a 240 gr bullet and 23 gr of 296 and a Federal 150 primer. I shot 79 out of 80. I shot many 38's, 39's and 40's out of 40 with this load. I left IHMSA shortly after because of a move and expense.
You are correct that under size boolits will never shoot and you show a great bunch of boolits. Neither will boolits that do not match the twist at the velocity attainable. Twist is another full page. Everyone ignores it with revolvers. A boolit MUST be shot at the velocity the twist will stabilize it at.
I feel you know a lot more then you let on.

In 45 Colt?

Load the same weight and powder charge and you have an ineffecient load in 45 Colt; unless?

Betting 44 Mag...

Yes, .44. However my .45 Vaquero responds the same with appropriate loads. Even starting loads with a 250 gr shoot very well with groups getting smaller as I go up. Then once the accurate point is found any change up with the load will slowly open groups.
I do like heavy hard cast because once I started just using my revolvers for deer I had poor penetration with the lighter jacketed bullets. I recovered all of the bullets. I prefer two holes for a lot of blood on the ground.
Getting cast boolits to shoot as good or better then jacketed was the challenge. It took a LOT of work. I had to start making my own molds to get what I wanted. All of the groups I showed were shot with my boolits except a few with Lee boolits and one with a Lyman.
I have dropped several deer with the .45 at just over 100 yd's off hand, last season it was 76 yards and there were many around 40 to 50 yards. The .44 has never let me down either but I love the .475 best of all.
The most important thing is that my boolits go exactly to the sights not counting trajectory at long range. Anything over 100 yards needs some holdover. My 45-70 drops 26 feet at 500 meters (547 yards.) so I need to hold on a tree branch to clang a steel ram. I kept 4 out of 5 on a 6" swinger at 400 yards with the .475 by aiming at the top of the 500 meter berm. I was shooting Creedmore from the side of my leg.
Don't let anyone tell you a WLN or WFN goes haywire past 50 yards. They out shoot any semi wadcutter ever made.

My .45 hunting loads are the 335 LBT WLNGC, my 335 gr WFNPB, the Lyman 325 gr (342 with my alloy.) and the Lee 300 gr, all with 21.5 gr of 296 and the Federal 150 primer. All boolits have shot 1" groups at 75 yards.
The .44 with the 320 LBT WLNGC and the Lee 310 gr uses 21.5 gr also. My 330 gr WLNGC uses 21 gr. All Federal standard 150's.
If I miss, it is me, I am the weak link. My revolvers surpass my ability to hit. I will not tolerate a gun that shoots were it is not aimed.

How does a .45, 342 gr penetrate at 1167 fps. This tree is 16" in diameter. The lower hole is my .45 Vaquero, the top hole is a .475. The grape vine also has chunks out. We did not find the boolits after digging up the holes in the ground.
What animal will stop them?

I don't. I also don't let anyone tell me H110 in certain loads is fine as temps decrease

Of course, long heavyweight bullets are best. I do have a 200gr. WFNGC in .433 and a 200gr. WFNPB in .453. After 75 yds. they get a little weak. It is possible to have a Keith bullet that is longer shoot better just because of weight and some guns also just shoot the Keith bullet better, so long as the nose that hangs in air is balanced and bullets are sized nose first. That, of course, is asking a lot.

Generally, apples to apples, the LBT deforms less, and other than land engagement, is in its final form from loading to recovery (if you can recover it) in a hardened alloy.

It is interesting to note in Elmer Keith's Sixguns that he created the WFN style in a 280 and 300gr. version for the 45 Colt. Of course the cylindrical nose was bore ride to fit in many guns, his alloy was comparatively soft, (it of course did not shoot well) and there was no 45 at the time that would handle his loads with these bullets. He remarks how well they killed...

It was a long heavy bullet that had little stability and bearing length for its size.

I'm sure you already know all of this, but here goes...

It still can be, even more so because most guns, particularly rifles, are designed to shoot jacketed bullets.

Lead, even in its most hardened state, is always soft and has a lower temperature/friction tolerance. Because of this, it requires support in the throat, from lands and grooves and can strip engagement if not pampered at times.

Straight wall cases, like most revolvers, really like cast once dimensions and timing are all corrected. I do not shoot any jacketed bullets in any wheelgun I own or buy anymore; none at all.

Getting jacketed equivalent loads from long-barreled bottleneck rifle cartridges with lead (and getting accuracy) is a lot more work at times....even though they appear to be easier.

Please expound. Explain timing & why you don't shoot jacketed.