On some offered advice, and combing through my Speer manual, I have decided on 2400 powder for loading up some rounds for my 6" Model 19. My home defense loads will be mild loads of 2400 with a good hollow point, but for backpacking and black bear protection what bullet would you recommend? A hard cast, or something else. Doesn't Nosler make a partition in .358?

Reading around the net it seems there is something to know about loading cast bullets, should the charge be reduced from the max the manual has listed?

Thank you

I like hard cast bullets, but not from a .357. Here's why: hard cast bullets depend on their meplat (the flat portion of the nose) to cut a wound channel and impart shock. The bigger the diameter of the meplat, the more wallop the target receives. With 44's and 45's there is already enough frontal area to impart shock and cut a good, wide wound channel.

Not so with the .357. For your application I would recommend Hornady's 180gr XTP at book maximum with 2400 or H110/Win 296. I have shot these from my 357 Maximum and my 357 Magnums and they expand reliably and penetrate well in wet newspaper. I firmly believe with a .357 that you need expansion just as much as penetration.

Also, black bear are not particularly heavy animals, and a .357 hard cast could plow right through leaving pencil hole entrance and exit wounds. An expanding .357 won't do that. I'll take a .45 exit hole, I'm less comfortable with a .357 hole. Again, this is just my bias but I do think it is well reasoned. The Hornady 180 XTP is my bullet of choice for hunting with the 357 magnum; their 158gr XTP is very good as well, but a bit light for larger game.

One final note: for protection, consider how the bullet would perform if you had to shoot the animal as it is laying on top of you. Complete penetration might not be the best option at that point; tissue destruction and shock, both features of an expanding bullet, take on a premium as your left arm is being chewed. Remember, if you are right handed, feed the bear your left arm. That way you can shoot with your right Grim stuff, but it bears thinking about (pun intended )

Check out a Lyman manual (a #47 or #48 - I don't have a #49). Lyman breaks their loads into catagories - one for Lead and one for Jacketed. I know Hornady does that too, Speer probably as well. Lead bullets driven to max velocity without a gascheck will lead the crap out of your bore in quick time. Most lead bullet loads are in the mild to medium range. I consider mild to be in the 800 fps range, medium (my favorite all around) to be in the 1100 fps range, and hot to be in the 1250 and up range. I use the same three catagories for .357 MAG, .41 MAG, .44 MAG, and 45 Colt. I also use lead RNFP bullets for mild loads, lead SWC bullets for medium loads, and lead gas checked WFN bullets for hot loads - I do this for my own visual separation of loads. A jacketed bulleted can be loaded at any speed that is safe for the cartridge in question. Check out Bear Tooth bullets (they have a good forum) for exceptional info on loading lead bullets and/or buy one of John Taffins books.

OK, I'm going to have to up my greenhorn game. I hear "gas checked" a lot, how exactly does a gas checked bullet differ?

A gas check is a copper cup that fits on the bottom of a cast bullet and prevents the hot gas from the powder from melting the lead. They are used for high velocity loads, and are often found on premium cast bullets from Cast Performance and others.

My rule of thumb is to use a gas check for velocities above 1200fps in the 44 and the 45 and above 1000fps in the 357 to avoid leading.

Thank you.

The 160 grain WFNPB,..available here:

http://www.castperformance.com/Detail.bok?no=4

Also, I like 2400 for magnum loads also, but it's un-necessary unless you're looking to twist a load up to maximum.

For the hard cast WFNPB in a .357 I've found that 6.5 grains of Unique gives very good accuracy. It's not a full power .357, but it's a fairly good jump up from even a +P .38 special.

Out of a 6" barrel it'll be clocking somewhere close to 1050 fps. Maybe even a little bit more.

Are you shooting a .357 S&W or a .358 Winchester?!

Depends on what you want. I'd much rather have plenty of penetration, especially in a self defense situation vs. a bear.
Expanding bullets, like Hornady's XTP in, say, the 158 gr. weight would be my choice for deer hunting. That's fine if you want sdomething to bleed out faster. But in a self defense situation, you should be shooting for the head anyway.
To deal with a bear and to do it w/ a .357, I'll take Hornady's swagged 158 gr. SWC. Cheap, very accurate and my 3 inch, M60 won't push them fast enough to require the more expensive gas checks on them. That way I'll practice with it alot, including steel, so I shoot it well and quickly if I need to.
Either will work, I'm sure. My choice is the the above 158 gr. SWC swagged bullets.
BTW, I used to load them with 6.5 grs. of Unique. Clocks about 925 fps. out of my 3 inch. Too slow for me. Now I use 9.3 grs. of Ramshot True Blue. Much more powerful load at both ends ! E

I know that they work very well. We see them used (45 and 50 cal.)in slug loads and a friend uses them in his 357.
Have shot one deer with the 300gr./45 from 45 Colt.

http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/supreme/partition-gold/Pages/default.aspx

But .358?

Depends on mfg.'er. what they are called, but most 357's use 357-358 bullets, exactly like the 35 Whelen, 358 Winchester.

http://www.hornady.com/store/.358-38-CAL/

FWIW most Hornady bullets do measure .358, Nosler, Speer and Sierras are .357-.3575.....
XTP's and the like do not.

Not wanting to start a big argument...

I notice that all of Hornady's .358s on your link are lead, except for the jacketed one listed for single shot pistols.
Their jacketed bullets are on a .357 page.

I notice, though, in Nosler's manual, that the 180-gr bullet for the .358 Win is called a Partition-HG, as is the 180 for the .357 Mag. If 'HG' stands for 'handgun', then perhaps it is the same bullet. I see no note to that effect-- tsk, tsk.
And we are talking 1/1000. I don't know what effect that makes on pressure. (And I won't try to learn experimentally. )

Most probably my rookie mistake, but I thought as a 30-06 shoots a .308 bullet, I thought .38 and .357's shot .358 bullets.

Specs are for .357-inch. (Evidently, exceptions may exist.)

Your manuals should show 'true' diameters for each cartridge.
And never make assumptions based on caliber or cartridge names.

Just wondering, hand loading for handguns do you generally seat to get as close to the forcing cone as you can, keeping the bullet from protruding out of the cylinders if the bullet has more than one cannelure, or is seating depth not as important with handguns?

For general revolver reloading, at least-

Ignore the jump to throat.
Few bullets have more than one crimping cannelure. Other grooves on lead bullets are usually for lube.
Just in case bullets begin shifting forward, as can happen in hard-recoiling guns, especially in chamber #6 (with the accumulated recoil from four or five other chambers), I'm glad to have a little extra space at the front of the cylinder. I've seen several guns locked up by a bullet jammed against the rear of the barrel. It ruins a shooting session!

Seat to the crimp or OAL of your specified data and component recipe using the bullet you choose.

Some Hornady and Speer bullets have two cannelures; seat the bullet farther out per their instructions in revolvers. If they do not seat out, a reduction in charge is in order, also upon their instructions.

Yes, the 180 .357 PT Gold HG is a handgun bullet, as can be the 200 gr Hornady SP (prolly not in a 357 wheelie )

Mac is correct, and I linked to the wrong page. Most of those jacketed bullets run .357-5.

However, sometimes a .357 barrel can measure as small as .355-6, a 44 Mag can have a tube of .427 and 45 Colt/Casull can be .450. Sometimes the throats AND barrel groove can be smaller than the bullet.

Yes, there will be pressure differences that data cannot account for, so work up. Basically, within certain parameters, working up a load IS an experiment, even when you have data for it, because its not from your gun.

I like casting my own, some with dual crimps and in some cases lube grooves make a fine crimp groove; and yes, I like to seat out as far out as I can.

Getting started though I would pick your bullet and find some published loads, follow their instructions, work up and have fun!

OK, now I'm getting confused. When you go to the Midway site and navigate to the Reloading-bullets-38/357 path you come to a page listing bullets for the .38 and .357, half of them say 358 dia, the others say 357..so are they all a thumbs up for .38 and .357 revolvers?

.38-.357

They're all good.

.001" is about half the diameter of a hair on your arm.

Unless I missed one while scanning those Midway pages you linked, the only bullets of .358 are lead; no jacketed bullets are. The oversize lead bullets swage down in the bore for good gas sealing. Jackets are harder, could cause pressure problems.

If you ever try to load an heirloom .45 Colt for accuracy, you'll have fun figuring out which bullet to use of the wide range of sizes possible! Tolerances were larger in the old days.

(Others will know far more than I about the fine points of matching bullet to bore.)

PS- I hope Midway did due diligence. They are one step away from the manufacturer- have a care from whom you get your tech specs.

Just pick the bullet you want and find a data source for that bullet and work up, not going over published speed or powder charge, if you have a chronograph.

Yeah, they're all okay so long as you have published data to work with.

GoldDots for the house; hard cast for the trail.

Ah, that makes sense, I got it, thanks for all the replies.

Barkoff - let's back up a little...



I'm gonna say Gold Dots for everything, in the .357.

JJ Hack wrote a long dissertation here some time ago about cast bullets from .357 handguns on black bears. IIRC, he had plenty of evidence to back up a preference for a good heavy hollowpoint for such use (but cast for larger calibers).

After much reading and comparing of loads and field notes, I'd say I have to agree with him on that. I know a few guys who either hunted or had unplanned opportunities to shoot western black bears with .357 revolvers. They all were using hollowpoints (some of them not even good ones) and all of their bears died soon enough. I have serious doubts that any of them would have died faster using hard cast lead - unless in result of a successful head shot. If you think you are reliably capable of making such a shot on an attacking bear (the only way you'll be able to claim "defense" beyond a doubt) then, well, go for it.

Besides all that - you are far more likely to have problems with people, feral dogs, or other smaller predators. From what I've seen and am otherwise privy to, your best all-around bet is to carry a good hollowpoint (like the 158gr Gold Dot) in your model 19.

You can get the Gold Dot for reloading. It's all I use in my heavier .357 loads and my serious .45acp loads. If you're worried about penetration on black bears, go with the 170gr GD. IMO, in .357 handguns, cast bullets are for practice or competition - the real world goes better with a good controlled-expansion hollowpoint.

357 Gold Dots are not as easy to expand as they are in 45 Cal




I would like to know what type of cast bullet that JJ was useing? Wide meplat hard cast work extremely well

Here are the other bullets that were tested that day

Hack is a professional guide who has posted here for years. His opinion of .357 cast bullets vs hollowpoints on black bears is the result of "being there" when various loads have been used over the years.

Shooting handgun bullets into the ground is about the least reliable indicator of terminal performance there is. Dirt doesn't do to bullets what flesh and blood do.

Thank you, I like reading JJHack's stuff, was the article in question on this site? Link?

Yep, it was here. I think it was in the Hunters Campfire forum a couple years ago, IIRC. Maybe I can find it in a search...

I have shot a hell of a lot of game with a handgun and my opion is from being there doing that and my results are far different with WIDE FLAT POINT HARD CAST

Here are a few that I have taken with a handgun and hard cast




















I know who JJ is and I do not believe that the instance that he saw hard cast that they were WIDE FLAT POINT HARD CAST

I stand by my previous post and that is the 160 grain 357 mag load as loaded by Speer does not expand well or consistently

It does penetrate well

Not trying to get into a pissing match, jwp - but I only went by what I read on your target..."12" into the ground". Have you tried this same load on game?

Are all those photos of you with a .357 in hand?

Still searching for Hack's post. How in the heck do you find a post more than 1 year old here?

The bullet went through 12" of water soaked wet pack and then 2" into the ground. The same wet pack that the other bullets were shot into. Wet pack can be carolated to flesh and how a bullet will perform.


I always emphasive wide flat point and by that I mean that the meplat should be from 72 to 78 percent of the bullets diameter (78% being optimal), if one follows this they will not be dissapointed in the flat point hard cast wound channel.

I asked JJ in one of those threads about the meplat of the hard cast that he saw used and I don't believe that he replied.


The Speer load is about 200 FPS slower than the Buffalo Bore load, the added speed may change the outcome but I have not tested the Buffalo Bore load as yet. The standard 158 grain JHP CCI load expands very well at the same velocity that the Gold Dot does not

Thanks for the clarification. Still - there are those who would argue that wet newspaper isn't that great of a test medium either. Lot's of room for argument on that matter when it comes to testing loads for defense against human flesh - but no need for that when it comes to killing animals, since loads can be tested on the real deal. My question for either side of this debate would be - is a poorly-expanding hollowpoint of similar weight going to do any worse than a flat-pointed cast bullet?

And there's still those dead bears - one of which I received the pelt from...

So - you shot those moose and brown bears with a .357?

I'll take a WFN hardcast over the hollow-point as well. They will out penetrate a hollow-point that fails to expand. I want to be able to completely rely on my bullet to penetrate deep and straight, and that excludes the ollow-point at handgun velocities. JMHO.

First things first...

JWP, you are right and I am wrong...I think.

I didn't like that I had brought JJHack's name into it without citations, so I did the digging to check my (questionable) memory. The two posts that he covered this subject that I could find in all his posts here are these...

JJHack on cast vs HP in .44mag

JJHack on various loads

It would seem that the only reference he made relevent to this thread was a complete distaste for any .357 on any large game. The cast vs HP remarks were only related to the .44mag.

Still, I know of these other black bears that were killed in "defense" - not normal hunting situations (except the one guy who did that repeatedly) with .357 and HP ammo. The key to my reasoning on this is that black bears in this part of the country run about the size of a large man, on average (yours may differ), and would likely be exposing the easiest route to it's vitals in an attack - and the fact that the odds are more likely that problems would arise with much softer animals than a bear. In all my time in the field (including backpacking trips and other trips into the deep back-country and otherwise) the only animals I have ever been seriously threatened by, to my knowledge, were stray dogs and man (well...and maybe that cougar that was trailing me).

Black bears, of which we have plenty, typically tend to keep to themselves and are easily driven away even when attracted by easy food. The possible exception here is the habituated "park bear". How are they dealing with these in Yosemite these days? From what I've seen so far you pretty much have to get between a sow and her cubs to be in any real danger. It's pretty easy to avoid that.

I recall JJ's dissertation, and I have no street creds against his 400 or something bears, but also note his belief that they (HP's) always expand and give more "shock". I believe he may be correct since the bears in question were shot at very close range (I believe), no one knows cause he didn't specify, but when hunting do you have a choice in distance?. Do you know if JJ was hunting these bears, or were they trapped or treed on control work?

I can tell you most do not past 35-40 yds driven to magnum speeds in 45 Colt and 44 Mag, so some of us have reasonable doubt.

I also recall JJ not putting and CNS/bone hits into factor. he didn't specify that either. I would concede a more noticeable kill for a HP that actually expanded over certain cast designs on a lung shot within a certain range; shoulder bones I disagree.

Put it this way; Ross Seyfried used hard cast LBT bullets for Cape Buffalo. I feel JJ would call it a stunt, but I don't think he'd be all spry to poke anything truly dangerous with his XTP's, for good reason.

HP/SP "expanding" bullets are built to parameters of performance, the only parameters for hard cast are meplat and bore size and to a lesser extent, speed. And don't take the manufacturers word on anything (grins)

Its nice to remember the "real" world, when asked for things to expand out of handguns, or most any low velocity arm (grins)



Shame, they weren't even hollow points.....



Am giving the .358 bore a try this year for deer, hopefully with some pics to banter over.

barkoff:
I hope this helps a little bit with the confusion part:
you will find that most calibers, such as a nominal diameter of .357 for say the model 19 refers to a jacketed round.
If you use a CAST bullet, most start at one thousandth over the jacketed diameter, or .358. Although you can find bullet diameters sometimes two or three thousandth over the nominal jacketed round diameter. This has to do with wanting the cast bullet to swell a little to prevent gas excaping around the bullet
If you were to look in one of the older lyman cast reloading manuals, you will find for each caliber the suggested lead diameter, and several others.
This has to do with the variances in the different handguns.
as to leading, the gas check is used to avoid leading at high velocities. Another way of dealing with this, is the compositions of the lead. Generally the faster you want it to go, the harder you want the lead to be on a brinnel scale.
And to make it even more confusing, some have cast bullets with two different lead hardness: Soft lead in the front, harder in the back.
One other powder you might want to look at by the way particularly for the heavier bullets in this class(model 19)
is lil gun. I have loaded some 200 grain bullets for the model 19 using lil gun, and it seems that it gives higher velocities with less pressure than some of the others.
I do like 2400 for high velocity rounds tho, witness buying about ten pounds of it for use in a variety of different handgun loads such as .44 and .41 magnum.

Clear & concise-- congratulations.

The thing about JJ's posts, etc. was that he was refering to hunting black bears. He, as he states, thinks the .357 Magnum as a black bear hunting round doesn't measure up. He also thinks the .40 S&W, and .45 ACP are in the same class as the .357 Magnum as Black Bear hunting rounds. Body shooting a Black Bear, or trying to head shoot one in a tree so the dogs don't have a wounded bear to deal with are one thing. But trying to decide what would make the best bear protection load in a, shall we say the marginal, .357 Magnum is a different set of circumstances. E

Thanks for all the input, very interesting stuff, I learned a lot. I think a large part of the argument would be my intention for bear protection as opposed the bear hunting.

I realize the .44 is a much better pick, but a nice lightweight .357 is what I have, and it is a lot lighter for backpacking than a heavy .44. That being said, most likely if I had to ever shoot at a black bear we are probably looking at a ten foot shot or less, so maybe the quicker expanding hollow point is the way to go.

I'll have to read JJHacks posts..thanks for taking the time to search those out, I usually have pretty rotten luck with that search function. I'm going to PM JJHACK a link to this thread so that when he is near a computer he can chime in.

Thank you for all the opinions, keep them coming.

For bear "protection", I'd PM 458 Win. (Phil Shoemaker). I think he's used the 357 in such applications; I don't think he uses HP's.

For those interested in the above referenced article previously published in several handgun and hunting magazines. Comprehension is an odd thing so please carefully read this for the "facts", it's not intended to argue with anyone about the performance. It's simply my opinion after a career of shooting bears.

-------------------------------------------------------

I have had quite a few guys over the years ask about handgun cartridges for bear hunting. I really like hunting bears with handguns. I have likely taken more with a handgun then by any other means myself. Handguns have some limitations and some, even though referred to as handguns are more like little handheld rifles then handguns. The general term of handgun seems to stretch the definition quite a bit to include these single shot cannons!

When I think of a handgun I see a revolver or semi-auto pistol in my mind. However today the Thompson Contender and other single shot
handguns seem to have taken over as the handgun of choice for serious big game hunters. I have owned many contender barrels and several contender actions in my life so I�m quite familiar with them.

During my early years as a Professional Hunter I was using dogs to hunt lions and bears. I took out a number of guys from the mid-west and eastern states for bears during the spring Idaho hunts and the fall Washington hunts. It was not unusual to take 20 or 30 hunters out per year and shoot 30-40 bears per season. The Idaho regulation allowed 2 bears per hunter per year and the Washington regulations allowed only one fall bear per person.

We booked a hunter from Ohio early in our guiding business. He was a police officer that wanted to hunt using his on duty carry gun. In Idaho any gun .22 center-fire or larger was the minimum for big game. Washington State had muzzle energy minimum requirement at that time. We took the policeman out on the hunt with his 45 ACP shooting 250-grain soft point bullets. His first bear was treed and shot without much trouble. The bear was in the tree about 20 yards above us. We caught our breath, took a couple photos and then he prepared for the shot and fired. The impact was solid, smoke could easily be seen coming out of the hole in the bear�s chest. The bear was angry and peeling bark from the tree after being hit! He began to climb further up the tree when I yelled hit him again. I did not want the bear coming down with the dogs tied up and unable to escape from this angry wounded bear. He was about 225-240 pounds. A nice brown colored typical Idaho spring bear. At the second shot which hit nearly the same place as the first the bear really started going up the tree fast and I yelled to shoot again. I think the third shot missed but the forth hit him solid sounding like a baseball bat hitting a homerun.

The bear was barely visible up in the branches of the tall fir tree when all of a sudden we heard him crashing down and falling to the ground. When he hit the ground he was up in a flash and rolling and running down the hill. He was dead when he came to a stop on the flat, about 100 yards below us.

This experience was really educational for me. I saw this bear shot quite a few times with little effect from that 45 ACP shooting good 240 grain soft point bullets. The hunters accuracy was great, the bullets were big and heavy, and the bear was close. Why would this combination not be a much better killer? The hunter was thrilled and excited to go shoot another bear! This time he loaded his 240-grain HP�s for the hunt. We had a conversation regarding the lack of �crumple power� his gun had shown. He was surprised I felt that his gun was weak, or exhibited a lack of power. He asked what I was expecting from a handgun. I said I expect a bear shot in the center of the chest with a bullet to die in seconds, not continue to climb a tree and growl or be in a fighting mood. I also said if the bear comes out of the tree alive next time, I would also have to shoot him to protect my dogs. The hunter, although he understood the issue with the dogs, was still surprised by my opinion of his guns performance. He also respected my need to guard the dogs should a problem occur with the next bear.

The second bear was bayed and running and bayed and running all day. It�s a trait big bears have so I was quite worried about the gun he had. Eventually this bear also treed and we were able to get to the base of the tree before he jumped out again. It was a big bear of at least 300 pounds. I also carried my .44 magnum revolver this time, as backup. At the shot, which the bear took in the center of his chest all he did was growl and slap the tree with his paw. I said keep shooting until he falls, if he comes down alive I�m going to have to shoot him too.

This bear started to come down the tree. At the next shot he stopped and began to climb further up the tree but fell dead when he hit the ground in a moment or two. The Ohio policeman was thrilled again and really excited to see that his carry gun was so good at killing a big animal like this bear. Far-be it from me to ruin his feelings on the hunt or his gun, but I thought the performance was pathetic! He returned home amongst the most satisfied of all the clients I have ever had. He must have done a great sales job too, because for the next several years the majority of my hunters were mid western police officers using their carry guns for hunting. During this time I relived many of these types of multiple shot hunts at close range with various types of handguns. I suppose it�s where my opinionated feelings have come from regarding handguns for bears or other big game. I also have to laugh when I hear guys talking about �back up� guns for hikes in bear country, or while fishing in Alaska. I also see this kind of chat on the Internet hunting forums. Many of the guys who really believe their handgun is the �be all-end all� choice for protection. They would likely be leaving the dead weight of their gun home if they saw it�s pathetic performance on a 300 pound black bear, much less an angry 1000 pound brown bear or grizzly!

There have been a lot of handgun cartridges used over the years that I would consider worthless hunting guns for big game. The first is the 38
special. It�s lack of penetration and poor bullets are not meant for hunting. A human being is a very soft and mentally weak animal. A Human shot in the leg will go down for the count screaming for help. A deer or bear shot the same way will be a 100 yards away or more before you realize you made a bad shot. I have seen 30 pound coyotes shot with a 357 magnum run a long way before falling down. A man shot the same way would be praying for his life. There are so many drug induced mental problems with humans that those dopers who are shot might be as hard to stop as a bear or deer. The drugs would likely make them more worry free and likely to flee or fight with a serious wound. If I were a policeman watching how my carry gun performed on a bear that allowed him to climb a tree, after a perfectly centered chest shot I would certainly consider a bigger gun! It seems to me many criminals are on dope and they would be like shooting an adrenalin filled bear!

So what are the cartridges which are failures, and the cartridges which are gems in the handgun world according to my experience with hundreds of bears killed? The bad choices are the 38 caliber the 9mm, and the 40S&W. These three should be strictly police work, targets or plinkers. The 40 S&W, and 9mm need cleaning and attention daily. I have seen plenty of these semi-autos fail to cycle with pine needles jammed into them and leaf mulch or dirt in the action. They seemed to have the highest level of cleaning and maintenance needed by far. Revolvers on the other hand seem to be trouble free and made for hunting!

The next group of guns can kill bears but I would certainly not consider them hunting guns. The 357 magnum is able to kill a bear much better then the 9mm and the 38 special even though they actually shoot the same bullets. The 357 mag is much better then the 40S&W as well. The 357-magnum case is just a bigger capacity shell able to provide much better performance. If I were a cop it�s likely what I would carry based on what I saw it do to bears of all sizes. Don�t mistake me here, I don�t like it as a hunting gun for big game especially bears. The 45ACP is another gun which worked but not what I would like in a bear, or big game crumpling handgun. I think soft point bullets with maximum loads would give you a false sense of security for bear backup as well. I don�t see the hard cast bullets in 357 mag being enough better to trust 100 percent of the time. They are not what I would carry and I would never suggest anyone hunt even the smaller black bears or deer with one. The .44 special was a decent performer but again it fell short of the crumple effect I like to see in a bear hunting gun.

This next group is where I think the minimum line is drawn. The 41 magnum and the 10mm seem to have the power to really make an impression
on a bear. I have seen both these cartridges knock bears down and break leg bones. Something the others just don�t seem to be able to manage
consistently. These guns shoot over 1000 fps with bullets well into the 200-grain weight category. They seem to have nearly equal power and
accuracy as well. This is where I would suggest a minimum bear hunting handgun for close range start. They are certainly less than 50 yard guns but a great tool for bait and hound hunting. I would not suggest this cartridge as a backup or self defense against bears, only for hunting.

Finally the best group of guns. These are cartridges, which have never failed to decide matters and have the ability to crumple a bear in his tracks most of the time. The .44 magnum, the 45 long colt, and the 454. I have killed dozens of bears with the .44 magnum in my life and I don�t recall a single one running off after the first shot. I have recovered very few bullets and have broken the bones of the shoulder and legs countless times. These guns are more like rifles in performance then the typical police handguns I�ve seen so often. With a 240 grain hollow point going 1200 or more FPS the .44 magnum revolver is at the top of the heap as a commonly used hunting handgun. With Randy Garrett's hard cast ammo it will whistle though the shoulders of any bear in America. My .44 magnum was a Ruger Red hawk with a 7.5� barrel. It was an easy to shoot gun with plenty of crumple power. The same gun in 45 Long colt or 454 would be as good at getting the job done. I also have a 4� barrel Smith and Wesson Mountain gun that is as good but do to the lower Velocity of the short barrel it has a distance limitation of about 40-50 yards in my opinion. I consider these the proper size handguns for hunting the big game of the world.

The final �sub-category� are the wildcats, the contenders, and the new big bore revolvers. There is now a whole host of big bore revolvers like the 480 Ruger, the 50 caliber S&W, and the 50 Linebaugh. There is even a 45/70 revolver available now! Clearly all these are excellent bear killers if you decide to pack the additional weight and handle the massive recoil forces.

Keep these three factors in mind when deciding on a handgun for big game or bears. Make certain it has 1000 fps impact velocity, not muzzle velocity. .40 caliber or greater diameter, and finally, heavy bullets in the mid 200-grain weight range or bigger. With handguns so long as the impact velocity is about 1000 fps the best way to improve power and visual effect is by increasing diameter and weight of the bullet.

Remember also there are ways of having an effective increase in bullet diameter without changing caliber. Make sure if you use hard cast bullets you have the largest flat nose on the bullet possible also known as the �meplat�. Randy Garrett loads a bullet in his ammo which has a large flat nose which is almost bore diameter! This has an enormous effect on bullet impact over a pointed or rounded nose bullet. Granted the over all diameter has not changed but the bullets impact diameter has improved by a whole bunch with such a big flat nose.

One other thing to consider, don�t think that just because you load a heavy hard cast bullet you have the most powerful load for your gun. This is a very common mistake. Those big heavy bullets will often whistle clean through a big bear like a field tipped arrow. The bears will die but often show little bullet impact reaction. They also tend to run off and die a great distance away. In my experience a high velocity hollow point bullet will cause a significant impact reaction and almost always allow an additional shot while the bear is stunned. The bullets about 240-260 grains in weight as fast as you can drive them will always show a greater impact effect then the heavy hard cast bullets do. They don�t penetrate as well or break big bones as well, but they don�t need to on a black bear. I have shot clean through many many black bears broadside with a 240-grain hollow point bullet at 1200-1300fps muzzle velocity. Upon impact the bears will stop and spin around biting at the wound and struggle to move away. With the many I have shot using a 300 plus grain hard cast bullets, they have launched out of sight like a rocket. Showing little if any reaction to being hit.


Don�t mistake those big heavy hard cast bullets for the most powerful ammunition your gun can use. They are when matched to the proper game, like buffalo, moose, elk, and many African species. However for the typical 250 to 500 pound soft skinned black bear they are a mistake to use.

Consider what works better on a deer shot through the lungs. A 375HH with a 300 grain solid having 4500 foot pounds of energy, or a 270 caliber rifle shooting a 130 grain soft point bullet with only 2400 foot pounds of energy? Clearly you see the energy is far greater and the bullet weight and diameter is bigger on the 375HH. Upon impact the 300-grain solid blows a hole right through and you cannot even tell if you hit the animal. With the explosive 130-grain bullet from the .270 the deer will launch into the air with a nerve reaction and fall within a few steps. It�s the projectile that decides the result much of the time, not the perceived, or calculated power your gun has.

Don�t focus so much on muzzle energy, or the hype surrounding heavy hard cast bullets. The hard-cast bullets do have exceptional penetration, but at the cost of small diameter wounds which don�t often have the same effect as the bigger diameter hollow point wounds which have much more of a shocking or stunning effect. The benefits an explosive soft point or hollow-point will provide you with is a certain visual reaction, and significant tissue trauma. The heavy hard cast bullets are designed for exceptional penetration only. Randy is a friend of mine we have sat and talked about this paradox of bullet choice many times. Black bears absolutely realize more trauma from higher velocity soft bullets, or hollow points. The super hard-cast heavy bullets pass through so quickly with so little transfer of bullet impact that the reaction is poor. Yes both designs will kill bears, but the faster pass through of the solids will make your effort to locate the bear much longer. Often I have seen hunters consider their shot a miss because the bear will show no reaction at all to being hit. If this kind of bullet is chosen the best solution is to break bones and hope the fragments of projected bone will assist in the penetration of important organs like the lungs and heart. If brown bears are the main target then the heavy hard cast bullets make sense. They can be 4-6 times the weight of a black bear and you will likely be shooting for shoulder bones on these big bears. Then the big hard cast bullets are the perfect choice.

I have not come to these conclusions by seeing one or two bears killed, but by seeing as many as several hundred killed. Anyone can see a bear shot with spectacular results once or twice and assume the cartridge bullet combination is perfect. However seeing the same combination twenty, thirty, or more times really starts to give you higher resolution repeatable results. The results that carry the most weight are the ones with the greatest resolution or highest numbers. I have heard countless hunters claiming that their XYZ caliber and bullet is the perfect choice. When asked why they think this, the reply is that they shot a bear with it one time and it worked perfectly. Well in my opinion one time does not make for a very scientific or credible set of facts! This works the other way as well. Plenty of people will make or see a bad shot on game and assume they need a bigger gun. When in fact they only needed to make a better shot!

Another interesting learning experience. If your gonna worry about where you go to the point that you need a gun, you better carry it with instant and easy access. If it's hidden away, might as well leave it home. Here is a true story about my only bear attack with actual contact and injury.

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When I was working in the bear research and damage prevention program for the Weyerhaeuser Corporation and the Washington Fish and Wildlife Department in Western Washington, I had 60 feeding stations to maintain on about 380 thousand acres bordering the Alpine Lakes Wilderness in the Cascades of Washington state. The reason we had feeding stations for black bears is another story altogether. I will just say for now that we were doing work on tree damage prevention by offering a supplemental food source for part of each spring when natural foods were limited.

I would make three trips each week maintaining approximately 20 stations per trip. One day while making the rounds of feed stations my daughter who was about 5 years old fell and cut her knee pretty bad. She was stressed out and nothing I could do would pacify her need to go home. I found some candy bars in the truck, and gave her some soda. The sugar rush helped for the time being and I really needed to get through the remaining stations so I would not screw up my schedule for the next set of feeding stations.

I did not want to drive all the way out of the woods and have to come all the way back to finish. My daughter was a good sport working with me, as it was all she really knew in her life. We were out working with the bears almost every day together. I would just strap her into the car seat and pack a lunch and away we would go for the whole day.

Because she was hurt and sore I knew she wanted to go home, she always wanted to visit the feeding stations to look at the claw marks on the trees and look for bear tracks in the mud. She was learning to be quite the little tracker and outdoorsmen. Today was much different because of her injured knee she did not want to go out of the truck. There were some really steep or brushy stations that were dangerous or too difficult for her so she would sit in the truck and watch the road for bears. The deal was if she saw a bear to beep the horn in the truck so I knew there was a bear nearby. This actually happened several times but was not a normal occurrence.

Because of her knee injury I was really hurrying to get done and trying to finish before her sugar rush wore off. We had about 4 stations to go when she started with the �I want to go home now� suggestions. She really had no choice in the matter but I certainly did not want her to hate doing this with me, so I agreed to hurry through the last 4 stations if she would help me. I even reminded her that feeding station number 1 was her favorite because we often saw bears there. Especially the one-eared bear that she thought was really funny looking. I never let her out of the truck at station #1 because the bears there were everyplace and the one-eared bear had been getting more and more bold each week through the spring and summer.


When we arrived at the last station I reminded her about using the horn and �keeping an eye on the road�. I grabbed a 50 pound sack of specially formulated �Land O lakes� bear chow and headed into the woods about 50 yards to fill the feeding station. It was really rainy, typical of this time of year. The trail in was very slippery in several places and because I was in a hurry I almost fell a couple times. I opened up the feeder and poured the bag in, not nearly enough to fill the drum. I reset the motion sensing game counter, exchanged the film in the motion activated camera and ran out to the truck for another sack of feed. I told her I would be right back and ran up the hill to the feeder to put in this final bag.

With my mind on getting home to fire up the wood stove and making something for dinner I was coming around a steep and slippery section of the path when I was hit so hard from behind I lost all my breath. I actually heard something but with the bag over my shoulder I never saw what happened. The bag flies into the air landing right next to my head. At that exact instant I realized a bear was on my back and I was suffocating with the air knocked out of me and the weight of this bear was on top of me. I am now, and was then a pretty fit guy, but working to get out from under this bear was pointless. He had me down and there was nothing I was going to do. He was biting me in the back around the shoulders and neck. One paw was on my head and pushing it down into the mud. I was still struggling to breathe and decided I needed to somehow get my Ruger Revolver out and resolve this problem.

I could not move a muscle without getting bit again and again. My thoughts turned to my daughter who would certainly come looking for me and would also be attacked and killed for sure. Even if the bear left me what would I look like when she found my body? What panic would set in for her? What would a very young child do with a dismembered parent alone in the woods? These hundreds of thoughts go through your mind like the bullet train, one whizzing thru after another. That was probably the single scariest moment of my life.

I was terrified she would come looking for me, I needed to do something but was completely helpless to get up. This was really a horrifying situation. Then as quick as I was knocked down the bear jumped off and ran into the bush, I briefly caught a glimpse that he had only one ear. I was in shock for several seconds sitting up and trying to get my wind back. I felt like taking out the revolver and throwing it as far as I could. What a worthless piece of dead weight I had been lugging through the woods for many years. The one time I really needed it, I can�t use it! Then I heard the horn of the truck blowing and my daughter yelling out the window that the bear with one ear was in the road. �Hurry up papa, he is leaving.� I am not an exceptionally religious guy, I certainly believe in God but am not a frequent church going person. I guarantee you this, no one is an atheist when a bear attack is occurring!








I eventually got to my feet and filled the feeding station. I went back to the truck trying to clean off my face and hair with my shirt. I was really choked up, knowing how close I was to losing my daughter and my own life, it was difficult to remain calm and un-emotional about what just happened. When I arrived at the truck my daughter stated sharply, �What took you so long, you missed the one eared bear, he was standing in the road, didn�t you hear me beeping the horn? --- What happened to you? How come you�re so muddy, what happened to your face? Are you okay, what happened to your shirt?

She was like some kind of semi-automatic question machine, those of you with children can probably relate. I explained what took place and that I was okay and we could go home now. Of course at this point she wanted to stay and go shoot the bear. Going home and allowing the bear to run free was just unacceptable to her. We did however go home. As it turned out I had massive bruising on my back and neck; many of the bruises on my head and neck look like shoestring licorice in purple. I had many long purple blood blister type marks from the claws. The claws did not break the skin. My heavy carhart jacket has holes in the back from the bites; I feel it saved me from much worse injuries. There was a minimum of blood; the biggest fear was my very difficult breathing, and the injuries I would find when the adrenaline wore off and when the mud was cleaned off. At least I had no broken bones or Serious blood loss.

I told a few of my coworkers about the event, and one of my F&W contacts. He suggested I shoot or snare that bear as soon as possible. It would be a shame to lose the program we had managed and developed for this one problem animal. I took an F&W employee out several times who really wanted to shoot a bear. We eventually shot the one-eared bear. I have it shoulder mounted in my shop. He was a 2.5-year-old male that weighed 210 pounds. The most �typical� gender and age for a problem bear. They have no home range, girlfriends, food source, or dominance over any other bears. They take out the frustration they have on what ever they can. It seems that the majority of bears removed from dangerous situations are those young males trying to establish their own home area. Older dominant males don�t get too worked up about things. They are the king of the area, and usually strongly nocturnal. People simply don�t get into contact with them very frequently. The younger bears are far more active during the daylight, and often in contact with people and in places that create conflict.

Over the last 20 years I�ve done this work the average age of black bears killed in Washington state has been 2.5 years old, and male. Go figure! They are the ones hunters see most frequently during shooting hours while spot and stalk, or bait hunting, and they are the ones most likely to run up a tree when chased by hounds. They are also the ones forced into bad decisions based on hunger pains!

Watching these bears around a bait is amusing. They are clearly far more afraid of other bears then the people hunting them. I remember yelling at a 2-3 year old bear to �get lost� when my wife and I were in the tree at dark. She was a bit nervous about climbing down to walk back to the truck with that bear 30 yards away. He just looked at me and walked slowly around woofing at us. Yet on another day with a bigger bear nearby, he would wind that bear and leave a vapor trail behind in has wake.

So why did that bear hit me? Well I�m not a bear mind reader, but in the discussions with other professionals doing this kind of work and from my own experiences, I concluded that he may have felt I was taking �his food�. I�m thinking he made this contact to define his space and property. When after a few moments (seemed like a heck of a long time to me) he realized I was not another bear and bolted away. Outside of that theory, I�m not sure. One thing is for certain, nobody is walking away from a �small bear� if it wants to kill and eat or dismember you! This bear was a puny 210lbs, but with a speed and strength that no equal sized human being could possess. Not sure how many people reading this have had the wind knocked from them, but that is also a paralyzing condition which causes its own panic without the bear added into to the mix! When combined into a simultaneous event it�s life changing to be sure!

Thanks for jumping in here Mr Hack, and my apologies for misquoting you early on.

Lots to think about in those two posts!

Barkoff - after my previous reference to "bear attacks" in which the bears were killed with a .357, I later thought I should clarify...

Most of these so-called attacks were really what I should call "nuisance contacts". No one was physically singled out or injured. These were mostly "camp raider" bears, causing destruction and interrupting sleep in hunting camps - the hunters being in possession of a bear tag felt no need to tolerate such behavior and took the opportunity to shoot, at very close but not contact range. In at lest one case, the bear was standing face-towards the shooter - IIRC because it was reaching for some food.

Real attacks by black bears in the back-country (around here anyway) like that described above by JJHack are pretty rare. And those I can remember hearing or reading of were all apparently habituated bears (as it seems was maybe partially the case with "One-ear). Everything else that is likely to be a problem in the lower 48 (for anyone with any sense, and excluding those grizzlies in and around Yellowstone and Glacier - or wherever they might be re-introduced) is smaller than a black bear.

Guess that's about all I have to say about that...

Barkoff, I will tell you and anyone else, FORGETABOUT the .375 magnum for black bears period. Now if you are concearned about bears in general on the trail while hiking or camping, then get yourself at least a .44 magnum handgun (6 inch barrel) and use those 300 grain bullets. A 45-Long Colt or .454 Casul will work as well. However you best learn how to use it under sever stress of a bear attack! To many people treat blackbears as though they are sugar babies and that will get you in trouble right from the get go.

I can tell you that a 200-bl blackbear is one tuff cookie, if you push it's button and I myself would rather face 2 pro-NFL lineman with baseball bats than a single blackbear with pistol in hand that wants to eat me up. If your going to carry that pistol, (chances are it won't do you much good if you don't have the mind set and have practiced a bunch) make sure the gun is teathered to your belt like those of the mounted police.

A few years ago, there was a conservation agent, who's job it was to relocate naughty grizzly bears. Well to make a long story short, one day things went wrong and the agent found himself with a bad bear trying to eat him up from the toes forward, once the bear pulled the cage off the truck, with the agent on top of the cage. The agent shot that bear point blank range, as he lay on the ground from the fall and emptied his .357 revolver into it's face and head. However, not before that bear bit his leg and broke it and mauled him up a bunch. It only took a few seconds for this incident to transpire. He afterward opted for a larger caliber handgun in .44 magnum. This all took place in state of Wyoming. If I am one bit concearned about bears in an area, I will be totting my 45/70 Marlin loaded up with Piledriver bullets.

The problem with most of the .357 failure stories is ammunition is never mentioned. Sure, a .357 with 125 gr hp's is no medicine for a bear.

But in a strong i.e. original 357 mag 45,000 psi strength 357 you can push a 180-200 gr hardcast bullet 1200-1300 fps. That's enough bullet to get reliable penetration, and with a wfn nose profile, you will get a wound channel.

When I don't want to pack my 480, I carry a 357 blackhawk loaded with 200 gr wfn's clocking 1200 fps. While less than ideal, it is far from useless, and certainly worth packing.

The 200 gr mold I have used to be cast performance production mold, and it is an outstanding bullet. I've gotten steller accuracy from 357 sixgun, 357 maximum contender at 1900 fps, 357 herret contender over 2000 fps, and have used it for plinking loads in various 35 cal rifles at 1200-1700 fps.

Who made that mold? Is it still available?

Cast Performance

The mold for cast performance by ballisticast, finest molds money can buy.

http://www.ballisti-cast.com/Price%20List.htm

and yes, their molds are worth $115 for a 2 cavity and $195 for the 4 cavity.

Look at page 8 of bullet desigs 1448. They show it available as 180 gr gc, I believe on my mold they just sank the cherry deeper for a longer gas check shank and hence heavier weight. That's how they made me a 460 gr wfn .475" mold, they just ran the cherry in deep for their 400 gr mold.

You could also have Mountain molds cut a similar design mold in aluminum, gotta love their on line bullet design.

Are your bears more talented than mine - or is that just a racial slur?

You are spot on bullet choice is VERRY important

I like a 158 grain soft point, not HP, as a trail load. 2400 is good, I load with Blue Dot or Unique now.