Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns .44 magnum specialty ammo mfg's. - comparison

Okay guys...just bought a used 7.5" .44 redhawk.
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<br>As I don't handload and probably never will, just wondering about the "specialty" ammo manufacturers. Also, ny thoughts on round nose vs. flat for big, and/or dangerous game? Cor-bon's 305 gr. vs. Garrett's 310 vs. Buffalo Bore, etc.
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<br>Thanks,
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Mr. T'foot,
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<br>I am inclined to believe that the .44 Mag bullet for dangerous or big game would be in the 300 to 325 grain range with a hard cast gaschecked bullet of the "Keith" type.
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<br>I get a gun magazine from South Africa (Magnum). They often have articles about taking big game with handguns. The concensus is ammo as above.
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<br>My thoughts about dangerous big game tends to lean to .375 H&H or .416 Rigby however.
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<br>Deputy Norm

Hey cuzzin, tha loads yer a talkin bout, are MEAN, MEAN , MEAN!!!
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<br>Cuzzin Tenderfoot, after ya drop tha hammer on a coupla them
<br>bruisers,...........well, let's jest say yer a gonna wanta change yer handle ta "Tenderhand".
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<br>Too much fer me cuzzin, but ya might be a better man than me.
<br>Them loads is only fer yer piece er tha Freedom Arms guns and tha like. They'd beat tha everlovin crap outa my beloved Smith 29's in short order.
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<br>I'm with Cuzzin Norm, fer dangerous game, I'd go with a belted rifle catridge (375 , 416 , etc.). Maybe , jest maybe
<br>tha hot factory Garret er CorBon load fer ma Marlin 444 "Big Medicine" levergun.
<br>Good luck an keep tha Icy Hot handy if'n ya tries out them "knuckle beaters" ya mentioned.
<br>Mitch.

Hey cuzzzzzz...
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<br>A big bore is always nice to have, but a little tough to juggle with a fly rod. Let you know how the .44 kicks with the .310 in it. Just as soon as it comes back from getting chopped to 4".

Tenderfoot,
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<br>Who are U getting to "chop" your RH? I have a 586 S&W 6" that i would love to have as a 3" but the only one I found so far is the factory and they'll only install 4" barrel. No one around here will touch the job.
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<br>Thanx,
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<br>George
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George:
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<br>I sent it to Hamilton Bowen of Bowen Classic Arms (I think he's the best in the U.S.). He's making it into an "Alpine", which you can see on his web site in his "Gallery" section at www.bowenclassicarms.com. He does some wonderful things, with S&W's too.
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<br>Another great all around 'smith, as well as S&W smith, is Jim Stroh at Alpha Precision. Visit him at www.alphaprecisioninc.com.
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<br>Lastly, visit Dave Clements at www.clementscustomguns.com. He works on S&W's as well.
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<br>Bowen and Stroh are more expensive than Clements.
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<br>My wait time at Bowen is 2-3 months. I can't speak for the others.
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<br>Good luck.

There is probably nothing in the USA that would require more then a 250 grain hardcast bullet. Elk, bison and Moose come to mind but they are the exceptions. Even a Brown bear will get easy complete broadside penetration with a 250 hardcast. You just have to be real close( no different with a heavier bullet however) The 300 grain and up bullets will penetrate much deeper and work far better on the very few animals in the world that are really big.
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<br>I'm not sure where you would get Hard cast factory loads? I know Randy Garret and he sells 300+ grain weights but not sure about lighter loads? Cor Bon ? Maybe. The problem with these types of special bullets is that they are very expensive to play with and once your gun is zero'd and your happy with the load do you want to screw with the sights for another cheaper to play with factory load?
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<br>I suppose I would consider what it is exactly you're going to shoot with this and then prepare for that hunt( or backup use) Hornady makes great ( and affordable) factory loads using their XTP bullets. I've killed an unbelievable amount of Bears with the 300 grain XTP and a .44 mag Ruger Redhawk. I did testing for them on bears during my work in damage control, I also did quite a few magazine endorsements with these bullts for them. I don't work with them now but it would be one of my top choices after seeing how well they worked on real big animals.
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<br>I especially liked the 240 grain XTP because the expansion was amazing and the "boat prop" effect it had on internal organs was impressive. Exit wounds were large and leaked a lot. I doubt I would use anything else unless the game was over 500 pounds. Then I would move to hardcast or the 300 grian XTP. The hunting conditions would also dictate the bullet used. Hunting with or around dogs I would use the XTP and NOT a hardcast bullet. Hunting spot and stalk or over bait I would opt for Hardcast most of the time, especially for Hogs. The gristle plate will stop a .44 mag XTP from an Exit most of the time. For an all around packing load the 240 grain XTP at about 1300fps is a huge force to be reconed with for any living thing. This combination is more rifle like in impact on game than all lesser handguns or loads. Stepping up from here in power breaks the threshold of recoil tolerance for many people and exceeds the needs of most big game.

By the way Hamiton Built My Redhawk as well. I would not use anyone else to do work on my handguns again. His integrity and "Extra effort" are unmatched in my opinion. He even numbered my cylinders with the stamp in order of accuracy so I could always have the most accurate cylinders alligned to the barrel first.

JJ:
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<br>Garrett makes a 310 gr and a 330 gr. Cor-bon makes a 260 and 280 for deer, and a 300 jsp and a 305 "stopper" and a 320 hard cast. Federal a 300.
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<br>I've thought about this alot...and while there are plenty of weights that can stop game, certainly on a broadside shot, I want the round that is most perfect when the moment of use is not. This particular gun is not about hunting, but about carrying when I'm hiking and fishing.
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<br>It's a reason I bought a DA and not a SA.
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<br>And while a Garret 300 gr or Cor-bon 305 or Buffalo-Bores "big 'ums" may be over-kill for black bear, it has a greater chance of anchoring anything that much quicker. I'm sure the Hornaday is fine ammo - Federal as well. I'm just impressed with Garrett's thought process in his ammo mfg....meplats...no expansion...stopping power...which is what I'm looking for. Expansion? Or break it down so it can't move?
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<br>I've even considered Garret's 330, which is made expressly for the Redhawk's chambers and is too long for any other gun. But I think that may prove to be a bit too much out of a 4" gun, though Randy still recommends it as the premeir stopper - of course he does :-).
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<br>By-the-way... I read you treatise on handgun calibers on black bear. Never got around to adding my name to the chorus of thank you's for that brain dump. Helped drive me to the set-up I'm putting together now so
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<br>Thanks.
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JJ:
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<br>He numbered your cylinders according to accuracy?! That's great! Think I'll have him do the same as he is doing the sight-in.
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<br>What did he build for you?

Tenderfoot, I can't help but have mixed feelings on this setup you describe. When the bigger animals are considered the bigger hardcast bullets are the right choice. However for the biggest of black bears in a "stopping" situation I would prefer to have the bullet open and rip it's way through the body, then to simply punture and whistle through like a field tipped arrow.
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<br>I have argued this exact situation from both sides for many years now in my mind. As I sit and type this out I think for soft skinned game under 500 pounds an expanding bullet that has strong integrity to hold together( easy with Handgun velocities) is the correct choice. I have seen an embarrasing number of black bears shot in my career. When I examine them for internal damage the jacketed soft points an jacketed hollow points have been more devistating internally then any of the Hard cast bullets. The other part of this formula is the crumple effect needed for a "stopping" gun. In almost every case the heavy hardcast bullets have had complete penetration with an exit. They also show little in the way of impact the majority of time allowing the bears to bolt away at the shot. If the bear can bolt away at the shot then he was not crumpled and would clearly not be stopped if charging!
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<br>When the lighter weight(240-260 grain) jacketed soft or hollow points have been used many of the bears have fallen at the instant of bullet impact or spun around biting at the wound. The majority paid serious attention to the bullet impact and the problems they were having. This was a much different situation then the Hard cast bullets which zipped through with little impact effect and almost no attention by the bear until he stopped running or bled to death. Having seen both situations in combination over 100 times I have formed this opinion. I pack a .44 Smith And Wesson Mountian gun with a 4" barrel. Mine is loaded with 240 grain XTP bullets at 1250fps. I have never had anything escape this load or even travel very far. I shoot cheap 240 grain Hardcast bullets buy the bulk box full and the XTP's hit to the exact same POI so the system is cheap and easy to use. Not to mention the more you shoot the the better you get.
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<br>If you have a gravel pit near by or some other open place. Get an old tire and fit a cardboard center where the hubcap would be. Have somebody on an incline roll the tire quartering toward you from 25 yards. See how many times you can hit that tire as it's coming at you.
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<br>I used a short section of 2X6 plank on a rock angled down towards me with a wooden wedge cut to hold the tire up at the top. With a string tired to the wedge and to my foot 25 yards away I could pull the wedge out and allow the tire to roll right at me. The speed can be adjusted by the angle of the ramp. It's interesting to see how far that tire goes between shots, and this is when you're ready for the whole process. It can only be worse when you're not expecting this and the gun is holstered under your heavy coat! I've been there and have the published story I can post here if you'reinterested.
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<br>I suppose everyone has their own ideas on these matters and the bottom line is using what you feel confident with. I for one will not use or even consider a hardcast bullet for a "defense" load on black bears. For hunting hardcast are fine as it will give you an exit and additional blood trails. They run nearly every time though. For pure crumple effect I want a flesh ripping buzz saw of a bullet that will get their attention instantly, and give them something to redirect their attention to. Two or three of these flesh rippers will stop anything smaller then a black bear sized predator easily. Probably anything period, but I would prefer more when the game exceeds 500 pounds, or black bear sized predators.
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<br>None of this is in regards to animals larger then black bears nor is it in regards to hunting. I would not use jacketd sullets on wild hogs either, their heavy gristle plate requires hard cast bullets in my opinion.

JJ,
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<br>I would enjoy reading your article on your experience. You could either post it here or email it to me @
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<br>avagadro@yahoo.com
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<br>Thank-you
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<br>George
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JJ:
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<br>As always, you throw a wrench in the works. Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing as it makes me think. After all, you have much more experience than I do and I'd be a fool not to consider what you have to say.
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<br>As you know, I've approached this from the point of view that when out in the field I want to defend against the worst senario...
<br>and that's pretty much black bear in our neck of the woods.
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<br>But... you mention hard cast "zipping" through...which I assume to mean that it missed everything internal...shoulder... spine... neck... lung... heart...etc. And should you hit a shoulder with a hard cast of the weights we're discussing, would it not "crumple" the bb? Would he not turn to the injury? Or would he ignore it and run off on 3 legs? (not trying to be funny).
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<br>So now I'm a little confused.
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<br>On another note... your suggestion of the rolling tire for practice is a wonderful one, perhaps you know a gravel pit... :-).
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<br>So...with defense in mind... in mid to north washington state it would be black bear and 240-260 gr. jsp would be enough... or perhaps the 255 SWC like E. Keith suggests? (I believe it's 255, I could be mistaken)
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<br>Way north, on this side of the canadian border, where there are grizzly bears, the hard cast 310, or something of that weight, etc., would be a likely candidate. Yes?
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<br>Question is...what to sight-in at? Seems like it'd be better to have it regulated to the heavier round first, then go from there.
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<br>Like to read your article. If you could, please mail it to
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<br>thetenderfoot@earthlink.net
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<br>Thanks again.

JJ:
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<br>One more thing on the jacketed vs. hard cast debate. Is it not really conditional on shot placement? The jacketed behind the shoulder and into the vitals and the hard cast into the shoulder /skull, etc.
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<br>And does that not beg the question...which would you rather have happen - miss a shoulder with the cast and hit vitals or miss the vitals with the jacketed and hit bone? Which would then be the better stopper?

I guess we keep bouncing back and forth between best hunting and best defense. Is there something that works for both without comprimise?
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<br>For defense which is what we have been primarily considering, a shoulder shot is unlikely. If you can shoot the shoulder the bear is not attacking you. If you can see the shoulder you can blow a huge hole through the chest( lungs heart etc.), if you can see the shoulder any 44 mag bullet will explode the scapula or leg bones with ease on the entry side and depending upon the power the gun has been loaded to and the bullet chosen it will be stopped under the skin or exit. That goes for hollow points and Softpoints as well.
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<br>When I suggest a hard cast bullet will whistle through I mean through important vital organs as well. Sure the bear will die and it will be easy to find with a huge blood trail. However it will run until it's dead on it's feet. If it can run 100 yards before it dies and your 20 yards away that big bone crunching powerful hard cast load will kill the bear but not before he has a few things to sort out with you or your family members. I have seen plenty of bears hit with a 300 grain Garret hard cast bullet. The water and pine needles exploded into the air upon impact off of his hide. Yet he would turn and run as fast as a bear can move until he dies in mid stride. The same exact shot placement( close as possible anyway) with a soft point or Hollow point set the bear back on his haunches and casued him to roll over or bite and chew at the wound. The average or typical reaction of a bear hit with a bullet that really opens up is not to run off, but to fold up. I have seen them eventually get to their feet and run again but that was sloppy on the our part. In a defense situation the guns gonna keep going off if the agressive bear is still moving!

JJ:
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<br>One last thought/question...so the bear is charging...nothing but skull and legs and collar bone...and if you're lucky - a little back/spine and maybe a bit of the chest for a shot. You're going with the jacketed, right?
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<br>BTW...thanks for the articles. Good reading and your daughter's got one lucky dad. Where do you carry your RH these days? On the outside of you coat? Hip?

I have a hip carry holster and Yes I shoot 240 XTP's loaded to 1250fps out of my S&W 4" mountian gun.
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<br>I also had Trijicon put glowing night sights on my revolver for less then ideal conditions. That is the best low light sighting system possible on earth today!

Trijicon makes great sights. I'm going with an Ashely Express set up myself.
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<br>Thanks again JJ!