i had a chance to prowl through some of these today at J&G sales, and one followed me home.
Some of them are I believe brand new pistols, combined with new holsters.
Very nice looking pistols.
The slavs have a thing about cosmo, so it is soaking right now but soon will be fired with that hot little cartridge.
They are nine shot by the way.
Think S.O.G. has them too

Its well made compared to some other variations Ive had my mitts on, but one question. What is the availabily of spare magazines at J&G for this one? Ive been under the impression that they'll sell you the gun, but not mags. Did you happen to notice if they had extra mags?
I have a 1911 based Tok that uses this same magazine and have had no luck in finding extras until these units showed up in the market.

Mine came with two mags. But, here are some new-made US mags for sale: http://ccsportingarms.com/

I didn't ask about spare mags, but the pistol had two with it, both brand new. I took it apart last night to soak it to the extent of removing the grips, and all other parts with the exception of breaking down the fire control group, which is a modular unit. I kind of regret not taking it apart, and might do that later cause the trigger feels a little like there is some cosmo in there some place. All parts serialed to the pistol, all were nicely blued, no signs of wear period. Also had a cleaning rod in the holster, also unused. While some of them i looked at showed signs of holster wear, and the holsters were worn, there are some that i am pretty sure are unfired. The Yugo ammo i bought with it looks pretty good too.
I have heard some reports the polish stuff splits. I might add the yugo also has a captive recoil spring. On reessembly, took a little while to get that barrel bushing on right, I think mostly attributable to bluing and basically as i said being brand new.
I won't have time until after muzzle loader elk next week, but eventually want to run some of that yugo ammo through a chrony.
Once cleaned up it has a slim profile and just feels pretty good in the hand like a 1911.
As to the stupid safety a.t.f. required to be installed, it wouldn't take much to remove it, and maybe fill in the holes. The yugo tok has a partial cock position for the hammer to keep it off the firing pin and i don't see as the safety is really needed. They also noched the frame for the up/safe position of the safety too.

If you have access to a parts washer, it might help in removing the cosmoline. Take off the grips and dunk it in the mineral spirits and hose it down inside. and out.

Osok, thanks for the link. alittle pricey for a surplus Tok, may have to jump on one anyway.

One of these followed me home today. Details re: impressions later, but overall initial, I'm definitely pleased.

Oh, but do let me reiterate....

I HATE cleaning out cosmoline.

Cool. Looking forward to hearing the details (and pics, too ).

I've been eyeballing those things for some time. If I ever get a Tokarev, it'll be a Yugo' 57.

AIM has the model 57.

It shows up on page 75 in John Remling's book "A Collectors Guide to Tokarev Pistols"

The difference between the model 57 and most other T-33 clones is cosmetic.

I wrote Sierra and told them their load book was wrong. The CZ52 is NOT stronger than the Tokarev. They wrote back that they just printed what they read and had no original information.

My favorite thing to do with Tokarevs is to convert them from 7.62x25mm Tokarev to 9x23mmWin. I just find an aftermarket 9x19mm barrel and ream the chamber and throat a little deeper.

The max published load for 357 mag is 8 gr Power Pistol 158 gr.

With Win 9x23mm brass [Starline 9mmSupercomp brass is not strong enough] I have been shooting 16 gr Power Pistol 158 gr. The recoil is horrific, but that is a 357 mag double load and the Tokarev can take it.

The differences between the TT-33 and M57 are NOT just cosmetic.

M57 uses a longer magazine (non-TT-33 compatible) due to the longer grip frame. Also, the firing pin and spring are retained by a sliding block, a la 1911, vs a retaining pin of the TT-33.

There are a couple other differences as well, but cosmetic alone, they ain't.

As for the double load... Forrest Gump comes to mind...

FWIW.... and, we'll take the QL projections as at least a guideline...

The max load .357 with the 158 and 8 grains PP generates roughly 25k PSI (Speer 4211 158 grain JHP, 1.590" COAL, 25.6 grains water capacity brass, 8 grains of PP, 64.5% case capacity).

A load of 16 grains of PP in a 9x23 would be damned near impossible. The case only has 16.75 grains MAXIMUM water capacity! The 16 grain PP load with the same 158, at 1.300" COAL would be 203% capacity (how the HELL do you get that much powder in a case?) and generate roughly 942K PSI!

No f'kin' way.

Where's the BS flag?

this one...

Rookies.....

You put it in a food processor, pulverize it, use a long drop tube (that's the part that most newbies overlook), and the upgraded heavy duty handle on your reloading press.

What? You mean everybody doesn't do it that way??

.357 Magnum:



Notice the 32.77mm OAL for the case?

9x23Win:



Notice the 22.85 OAL for the case?

So, a 9x23mm vs (essentially) a 9x33mm case....

Hell, even in the .357 Magnum (33mm case), 16 grains of PP under the same 158 JHP would generate an anticipated 130k PSI...

Proof loads for the 8mm Remington Magnum in RIFLES have to proof to at least 83kPSI (125% of the CIP standard of 66717 psi).... The 16 grains of PP in the .357 Magnum case would generate only a mere 63% more pressure than those PROOF loads for the 8mm RemMag RIFLES (gee, no wonder the .357Mag brass can't/won't take it, huh?).

Yet, our resident genius thinks that the Tokarev, with it's modified Browning toggle link assembly (never rated for more than about 35k PSI) will take not only THOSE loads, but loads 722% greater than the 8mmRM RIFLE PROOF LOADS, 2683% greater than .357 Magnum SAAMI loads, and 9x23 SAAMI loads?!?!?!

I still haven't decided if I believe clarkm has really done some of the stuff he has claimed to.

If he really is for real, I have to wonder what on earth is the point of routinely running guns with loads in excess of proof loads?

last night i had occasion to handle a different tokarov, not mine, in taking the ammo out, and replacing it. In the process i had to work the slide/safety etc. Huge difference in functioning between it and the yugo i have. I will have to find out the country of origin.

well rufus, from some of the other posts clark has made i think i would totally disreguard him except in some ways he is dangerous to others in posting his nonsense.

i might add that since i bought the pistol i finally had a chance to burn a couple of boxes of surplus yugo ammo through it.
trigger takes a little getting use to, but about 160 rounds through it and not one problem. We were wacking gallon milk jugs and water bottles at about 25-30 yards without any real issue.
you can get about 1200 rounds of that high speed ammo for a around 100bills.

Ron;

Polish, or Czech, perhaps?

And, yeah, I can see a can or two of the mil-surp FMJs, as well as some of the Wolf JHPs in the near future.

i would have to go look in the gun place, but believe yugo.
my friend that sells the stuff said it was better quality than the polish, which had some misfires. You can go to the J&G sales website, or i think aim is carrying it.
AFter seeing this post again, i think i am going to take the pistol apart again, and drop the fire control group into a can of gas, and let it sit for a while, then blow it out with a air compressor and reoil. The grips are kind of funky, in they are kind of unconventional to take off. But you can see, at least i do, john browning all over this pistol.
i might add the not needed safety on mine actually works. The one i was handling last night the safety was a nightmare.
I don't know if i ever mentioned this, but an interesting story. Friend of mine in the marine corp was assigned to the iraqi police when we shipped over a bunch of glock19's. They weren't impressed and promptly started selling them in the village bazzaars on the black market and went back to the tok. Reason being the penetration of the tok round in car bodies etc.

FWIW, a little size/weight comparison:

Colt Series 70 1911A1, FEG PJK-9HP (BHP-clone), Yugo M57

Weight:

Colt 1911A1, 8+1 230 gr JHP: 45.7 oz
FEG PJK-9HP, 13+1 124 gr JHP: 38.4 oz
Yugo M57, 9+1 87 grain FMJ: 35.2 oz

Height (bottom of magazine, inserted into pistol, to top of slide):

Colt, 5.190"
FEG, 4.981"
Yugo, 5.178

Width at muzzle:

Colt, 0.985"
FEG, 0.837" (width behind step = 0.881")
Yugo, 0.825"

Height at muzzle (not counting front sight):

Colt, 1.446" (height at step = 1.541")
FEG, 1.346" (height at step = 1.456")
Yugo, 1.256" (height at step = 1.354")

Width at grips:

Colt, 1.241"
FEG, 1.373"
Yugo, 1.173"

Tale of the tape and scale don't have the M57 in bad company at all.

And, yeah, I agree with Ron; you can see JMB's influence/fingerprints all over the Tok - be that direct or indirect, it's a design so heavily influenced by JMB as to be unmistakeable.

Ron,
I am going to have to give one of those a run sometime when we get together. I have been scoping those out at J&G, but I get up there so seldom lately.

16 gr Power Pistol is all I can fit with double compression at 1.36" OAL 158 gr XTP.

I use a pin gauge in a collet bullet puller die to compress the powder in the case, because the force to compress the powder would squish the bullet to a larger diameter.
The same technique for:
9x17mm 8.7 gr Power Pistol 1.09" 158 gr XTP 1187 fps, 5" barrel
9x19mm 11 gr Power Pistol 1.69", 158 gr XTP
9x23mm 16 gr Power Pistol 1.36", 158 gr XTP


In Sept I upgraded Quickload and gave my name I was informed that Hartmut Broemel is very interested in my posts about testing Tokarevs.

Clark, I see you've been here longer than me, but don't remember you posting anything until fairly recently. I've read a few of your posts now and you seem fixated on reloading to dangerous levels. I'm not much on either telling people what to do on here or getting otherwise moralistic, but your stuff is gonna get somebody hurt.

There is nothing about the format or content in my posts outside of the scope of "P.O. Ackley "Volume I Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders" 1962.

I don't think we should dumb down all posts to the point of not including test data.

Explain this part further, I'm not getting it.



I'll be sure to watch for the credit, if in fact they do start using your data.

Still trying to figure out how the Tokarev with it's Browning-esque toggle link system is supposed to hold up to estimated pressures of over 940,000PSI.

WTF? Did the ComBloc manufacturers make the Toks out of adamantium or something?

unobtainium

I haven't read that particular treatise, but I take note that you did not say the loads were published in it. Are you saying they are published in Ackley's work? You have implied it.

Bullschitt there!!! There is abosolutely no way you are running 158 grain Hornady XTPs, at anywhere near 1187fps in a friggin .380 ACP aka 9x17mm

He lists the loads used in work ups to the point of failure in military bolt action rifles.

I try to compliment his work. He did not publish any tests on Swedish Mausers, so I got a 94,96, and 34 for destructive test.

Here are some examples from one of my posts 10 years ago:

P.O. Ackley 'Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders Vol. 2', 1966, page 2,
actions to be
tested:

6. Eddystone-Enfield Number 952302
62 gr 3031 140 gr .270 Ackley magnum
102,000 psi

7. Remington-Enfield Number 673777
68 gr 3031, 180 gr .270 Ackley magnum
197,000 psi

13. British Lee Enfield, Mark III caliber .303, Number 41469
50 gr 2400, 150 gr .30-40 Improved [.303 Epps]
159,000 psi

100% capacity with 1.09" COAL, 158 XTP, is 3.74 grains of PP for just under 25k PSI; Clark's only claiming 232% capacity... at 7.7 grains QL is only projecting a mere 618,000PSI!

Anyone want to volunteer to test drive that load in a PPK?

Velocity estimated in excess of 1800 fps. To hit 1187 fps, about 5.0 grains of PP (still 133% capacity and better than 55kPSI) would do it, according to QL.



1.69" COAL has the 158 XTP seated just a TAD long... like 0.272" IN FRONT of the case mouth.... Hmmmm

At standard COAL (1.169"), 100% capacity with the 158 XTP is 5.2 grains of PP, for a max load at about 33k PSI.

Clark's only claiming a 212% capacity load, and 1,390,000PSI.

Yeah, try THAT in a Beretta M9....



Ah, I stand corrected. It's only a 186% capacity load, and at 474,000PSI....

Exactly.

His loads show RIFLES coming apart in the 100k-200k PSI range.

You're claiming PISTOLS holding together for up to 4x to 10x that!

And yet the 9mm primers do not even pierce and the velocities are much less than predicted.
Quickload has a problem with straight wall cartridges blowing unburned powder out the muzzle.
It even says that in the instructions.

And yet for bottle necked cartridges, even loaded way hot, the velocity prediction will be right in the middle of the string.

Don't give up on Quickload, learn how to use where appropriate.
When Quickload says you have 100kpsi in 6mmBR, the primer will pierce.


Pic of one of my 7.62x25mm Tokarevs that more completely burns the powder.

So, "smart guy", what is actual pressure reading on a Tok, rechambered to 9x23Win, and loaded to a 186% compressed load of PP under a 158 grain XTP?

Now, that is really something.

That is relatively easy to make, given the manufacturer-ability of Tokarev barrels. I just took a surplus Parker Hale sniper trainer barrel, cut off the 308 chamber, and reamed for 7.62x25mm. If you can't do the mill, lathe, and weld, it would be cheap to have a gunsmith do it.

Wow dude. You are like, awesomely insane.

This all renders me absolutely speechless.

rendering Bricktop speechless might be grounds for turdlike status...

VAnimrod,

Are we gonna get to see some pics? I keep going back to this thread hoping to see some photos or read some range notes, but....

Wouldn't the CZ 52 have a stronger lockup than the Tokarev?

The lock up is not the problem. Both the CZ52 and the Tokarev could have been blowbacks. They have enough slide mass and case support for the cartridges they were chambered in for blow backs to work. Maybe the cases would have ejected a long way, but it could have been done.

The problem with the CZ52s are:
1) The thin spot under the chamber where the relief cut for the rollers was milled out. This causes the CZ52 chamber to split at relatively low pressures compared to any other semi auto.
2) The heat treat of the barrel steel varies from RC25 to RC47.
This causes the chamber to split much more easily on some CZ52s than others.

I have thought about making a CZ52 barrel out of good steel with good heat treat and slightly less cut out for rollers. I could use slightly shorter rollers. The CZ52 might get stronger than the brass, and join the ranks of every other semi auto pistol.

Pics, I can get today.

Range notes will have to wait a bit. The indoor range here in town does not allow any bottlenecked cartridges, so... a range session will have to wait until I can get clear of town and up to the hunting camp.

Got all the cosmoline cleaned out of the M57. Overall, a very nice little piece. The trigger (once the cosmoline was out of the firing assembly) is pretty crisp; heavy (maybe 7# or so), but crisp. For a battle pistol, that's not bad, not bad at all, really.

Still waiting for Clark to comment on exactly what PSI pressures his bomb-load Tokarevs are withstanding...

A blow-back in 7.62x25.... priceless....

You think you deserve data?

I believe you can buy 7.62x25 blow backs.

You think your "experiments" are credible without data?

You might be able to buy a 7.62x25 blowback; gotta link?

I don't think most here deserve your data.

FWIW, and this is apples to oranges, but you can get at least one blowback 7.62x25
Wiselite is the shop putting out the new Sterling Carbine(9mm Para) thery are also now producing the Wiselite Colfire Magnum Pistol. Essentially a chopping down a Sterling Carbine in to a pistol and chambering it for 7.62x25
Like all Sterling/STEN it is a blowback gun. They have been available for awhile now. I can't give a link from the office, but J&G in Prescott, Az. has them.


That said I still think Clark is blowing smoke here.

Wow....

Yeah, this thing SO resembles a Tokarev or CZ-52... it's just glaringly obvious how those guns could have been a blow-back like this one....

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/sterling-pistol,-7-62x25-cal,-the-colefire-magnum-by-wiselite-/products_id/3940



Well run company, too....

http://www.wlarms.com/

Like I said apples and oranges.
Just clarifying that there is at least one blowback in 7.62x25

I wasn't backing up Clark in anyway....

Oh, understood completely.

I'm not an expert by any stretch, but the full auto versions of the Sten and Sterling fired from an open bolt, not blow back. The semi-autos are closed bolt, but I'm pretty sure the Sterling has a fluted bolt and is at least a delayed blow back, if not a locked breech, firearm.

Pardon the crappy pics (a photographer, I ain't...):

Let's start with a couple "extend family" pictures:





Now, obviously, that's a Colt 1911A1, a BHP (FEG-clone), and the Yugo M57. The family resemblances go much more than skin deep, however.

Here's the 1911 stripped:



Notice the barrel lugs, the takedown/slide release/stop lever, and the barrel bushing, along with the toggle link and recoil spring assembly?

Now, here's the BHP stripped:



The barrel bushing was eliminated, as was the barrel toggle/link assembly. But, the slide release/stop, the barrel lugs, and recoil spring assembly are very similar, as is the overall slide design itself.

Now, here's the M57 stripped:



The barrel bushing is back, as is the toggle/link. The barrel lugs are still there, the slide release/stop is still there, and the recoil spring assembly is similar (though, it's a 2-piece, jointed spring guide).

Look, though, at that modular firing assembly. Rather ingenious, really.

Even the magazines are remarkably similar and show the family traits:



If anything, the Tok is simply a much simplified Browning-derived design. Indicative of that is not only the modular firing assembly, but look at the retaining mechanism for the slide release/stop:

[img]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b165/VAnimrod/P4190137.jpg[/img]

Just a simple locking slide; no machinations of the slide required to disengage. Clever.

They are a lever delayed blowback to my knowledge.
I could be mistaken as I have not laid hands on one.

Damn it!

Seeing these Toks all cleaned up is really putting the bug to me. I might need one of these.

Magnum...

They're damned cheap.... and even cheaper to feed.... Russian count case (1280 rds) for under $150. Try that with anything other than a .22LR....

Yeah I haven't been able to find one local yet. J&G is just up the hill in Prescott and has them for like $180.

I know the ammo is dirt cheap there too. Like $79 for 1000rounds or something silly.


Maybe roninphx wants to part with one so I can avoid the run up to J&G

+100 on this.

VAnimrod: Thanks for posting the great pics. Those Yugo Toks look nicer and nicer everytime I see one. Your photos might have just pushed me over the edge.

How many magazines come with the pistol? At one time spare mags for the M57 were pricey. Not sure if that's still the case.

Two mags from what I gather.

I shot one several months ago, after the clean up.
Felt like a very powerful pistol with little kick.
Was very fun to shoot.

Ordered one in fact today.

J&G seems to be out of the spam can of Polish ammo.
Anyone know of current stocks please PM or post address please.


Good hog gun---------------

Thanks for the Tok pics, that's the first time I have seen one disassembled.

I just happen to have a (allegedly) NVA-made 1911 barrel, which could be an interesting handloading project. I will need a new Gov't Model 9mm or .38 Super, darn it.

The factory ammo is too long to fit a standard 1911 magazine, but with hollow points and a little deeper bullet seating (and non-Clark caution) I think I could make one run.

two, one in the pistol and one in the holster, if they are still that way.
actually i will be in prescott tomorrow and might have to stop by that story on a different matter that i need to see there.
Some of the first bunch they got in were basically unfired, with new holsters.

they did have yugo ammo last time i was in there, and it is better than polish anyway from what i understand

Lots of 20 round boxes for sale all over the country. I was looking for the 10 cent a round stuff. Found the 70 round box imported stuff for 20 cents a round. Lots of different brands are better than the polish stuff, just wanted it for target practice etc. Thanks for the infor.
All I know is the pistol was fun to shoot, cheap cost to buy, cheap to shoot.

I sure need to apply for the R & C lic.

Pistol is in, missed ammo delivery as I was at the range.


Cleaning: Bucket of mineral spirits, bucket of gas?

Either will work to clean.

Or, strip the firing assembly out, drop that in just enough mineral spirits to cover for two hours. Swish, dump, repeat. Then, RemOil it up.

For the rest; hot water and Simple Green.

Sounds like a winner, Thanks

It will keep you from smelling like gas everytime you pick it up.

An old toothbrush, or 0000 steel wool with the Simple Green and hot water works like a charm.

Be sure to clean the holster and the mags, too. Trust me...

i might comment on another import pistol i picked up recently, and yes, J&G got to me again. These are CZ83's, in .380.
Same thing as a CZ82, except in .380 instead of the 9mm makarov round. Wonderfully made little pistols, with a fixed barrel. I found the 82 to be quite accurate and think the 83 will too. A 13 round steel pocket pistol with a ambi safety.

i use to throw a lot of this stuff for cleaning purposes in a bucket of gas. I find myself anymore using simple green and hot water to get rid of the cosmoline.

I in the past, with a russian Mosin, Boiled the bolt. That seemed to work fine. Never thought of the simple green idea.

Good for you on the 380, I'll pass as the Sig 238 that I own does work fine. Sig's are about $600, how many of the CZ83's could you buy for one Sig?

they are about 230bucks from memory, so with maybe a little discount for three maybe three cz's for one sig

Well I do hope your new CZ works and shoots fine.
Just have to stay away from the old military, like to shoot them to much and collect.
Bad obsession.

Ron,
Do you know if J&G has any good Toks left or did you take them all? I might make a road trip this weedend to grab one if they do.

Spent part of the weekend shooting my Yugo.
About 150 rounds down range.
2 hour mineral spirits, 1/2 toothbrush and simple green and just wiping down and putting back together.

Seems i now need to learn to shoot. Most rounds were hitting low. Will practice much more in the future. Going to learn.
Used Polish rounds, shot @ at 21 feet to about 40 feet.
What really brought home the fact of not being real good is when my brother shot it, everything in a 6 inch circle.
He shot my sig 226 and hit in the fifty cent size twice with it..
@ about 30 feet.
90% of everything I shot, 226, Yugo, 238 all were low shots by a few inches. Time for a class. All were on the target, just not in the 50 cent size. This lefty needs help.
Love the new Yugo.
Very good for the money.

Tested the new C&R.... This came right to my door today - I could not be more pleased with the condition. Faxed FFL, phone ordered, hand select paid, shipped the next business day and it took two days in transit NC (hint) to Oregon. The last pic shows the extent of the wear. C&R baby! OT

Looks GREAT!

that funky safety that was required to be put in to have them enter the country looks like it could be taken out rather easily.
haven't done so at this point, but did have it out for a while when i was cleaning the pistol. It has a spring holding the hammer off the firing pin in the down position, not sure why it really needs the thumb safety other than a.t.f. requirements.

I take the safeties off Tokarevs as soon as I get them. I typically don't bother TIG welding over the hole, milling it flat, filing, and re bluing. Tokarevs are not show guns.

I got two Chinese Tokarevs though ShotgunNews 15 years ago for $85 each. The guns had ok machining, but the safeties looked like they were made by free hand grinding by unskilled workers [Albanian SKS gas tube like workmanship]. One safety was safe to the rear, and the other pistol had safe to the front.