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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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i would have to go look in the gun place, but believe yugo. my friend that sells the stuff said it was better quality than the polish, which had some misfires. You can go to the J&G sales website, or i think aim is carrying it. AFter seeing this post again, i think i am going to take the pistol apart again, and drop the fire control group into a can of gas, and let it sit for a while, then blow it out with a air compressor and reoil. The grips are kind of funky, in they are kind of unconventional to take off. But you can see, at least i do, john browning all over this pistol. i might add the not needed safety on mine actually works. The one i was handling last night the safety was a nightmare. I don't know if i ever mentioned this, but an interesting story. Friend of mine in the marine corp was assigned to the iraqi police when we shipped over a bunch of glock19's. They weren't impressed and promptly started selling them in the village bazzaars on the black market and went back to the tok. Reason being the penetration of the tok round in car bodies etc.
Last edited by RoninPhx; 04/16/11.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
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FWIW, a little size/weight comparison:
Colt Series 70 1911A1, FEG PJK-9HP (BHP-clone), Yugo M57
Weight:
Colt 1911A1, 8+1 230 gr JHP: 45.7 oz FEG PJK-9HP, 13+1 124 gr JHP: 38.4 oz Yugo M57, 9+1 87 grain FMJ: 35.2 oz
Height (bottom of magazine, inserted into pistol, to top of slide):
Colt, 5.190" FEG, 4.981" Yugo, 5.178
Width at muzzle:
Colt, 0.985" FEG, 0.837" (width behind step = 0.881") Yugo, 0.825"
Height at muzzle (not counting front sight):
Colt, 1.446" (height at step = 1.541") FEG, 1.346" (height at step = 1.456") Yugo, 1.256" (height at step = 1.354")
Width at grips:
Colt, 1.241" FEG, 1.373" Yugo, 1.173"
Tale of the tape and scale don't have the M57 in bad company at all.
And, yeah, I agree with Ron; you can see JMB's influence/fingerprints all over the Tok - be that direct or indirect, it's a design so heavily influenced by JMB as to be unmistakeable.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Ron, I am going to have to give one of those a run sometime when we get together. I have been scoping those out at J&G, but I get up there so seldom lately.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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AIM has the model 57.
It shows up on page 75 in John Remling's book "A Collectors Guide to Tokarev Pistols"
The difference between the model 57 and most other T-33 clones is cosmetic.
I wrote Sierra and told them their load book was wrong. The CZ52 is NOT stronger than the Tokarev. They wrote back that they just printed what they read and had no original information.
My favorite thing to do with Tokarevs is to convert them from 7.62x25mm Tokarev to 9x23mmWin. I just find an aftermarket 9x19mm barrel and ream the chamber and throat a little deeper.
The max published load for 357 mag is 8 gr Power Pistol 158 gr.
With Win 9x23mm brass [Starline 9mmSupercomp brass is not strong enough] I have been shooting 16 gr Power Pistol 158 gr. The recoil is horrific, but that is a 357 mag double load and the Tokarev can take it. FWIW.... and, we'll take the QL projections as at least a guideline... The max load .357 with the 158 and 8 grains PP generates roughly 25k PSI (Speer 4211 158 grain JHP, 1.590" COAL, 25.6 grains water capacity brass, 8 grains of PP, 64.5% case capacity). A load of 16 grains of PP in a 9x23 would be damned near impossible. The case only has 16.75 grains MAXIMUM water capacity! The 16 grain PP load with the same 158, at 1.300" COAL would be 203% capacity (how the HELL do you get that much powder in a case?) and generate roughly 942K PSI! No f'kin' way. Where's the BS flag? 16 gr Power Pistol is all I can fit with double compression at 1.36" OAL 158 gr XTP. I use a pin gauge in a collet bullet puller die to compress the powder in the case, because the force to compress the powder would squish the bullet to a larger diameter. The same technique for: 9x17mm 8.7 gr Power Pistol 1.09" 158 gr XTP 1187 fps, 5" barrel 9x19mm 11 gr Power Pistol 1.69", 158 gr XTP 9x23mm 16 gr Power Pistol 1.36", 158 gr XTP In Sept I upgraded Quickload and gave my name I was informed that Hartmut Broemel is very interested in my posts about testing Tokarevs.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Clark, I see you've been here longer than me, but don't remember you posting anything until fairly recently. I've read a few of your posts now and you seem fixated on reloading to dangerous levels. I'm not much on either telling people what to do on here or getting otherwise moralistic, but your stuff is gonna get somebody hurt.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2003
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Clark, I see you've been here longer than me, but don't remember you posting anything until fairly recently. I've read a few of your posts now and you seem fixated on reloading to dangerous levels. I'm not much on either telling people what to do on here or getting otherwise moralistic, but your stuff is gonna get somebody hurt. There is nothing about the format or content in my posts outside of the scope of "P.O. Ackley "Volume I Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders" 1962. I don't think we should dumb down all posts to the point of not including test data.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
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16 gr Power Pistol is all I can fit with double compression at 1.36" OAL 158 gr XTP.
I use a pin gauge in a collet bullet puller die to compress the powder in the case, because the force to compress the powder would squish the bullet to a larger diameter. Explain this part further, I'm not getting it. In Sept I upgraded Quickload and gave my name I was informed that Hartmut Broemel is very interested in my posts about testing Tokarevs. I'll be sure to watch for the credit, if in fact they do start using your data.
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130 |
Still trying to figure out how the Tokarev with it's Browning-esque toggle link system is supposed to hold up to estimated pressures of over 940,000PSI.
WTF? Did the ComBloc manufacturers make the Toks out of adamantium or something?
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish!
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
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Clark, I see you've been here longer than me, but don't remember you posting anything until fairly recently. I've read a few of your posts now and you seem fixated on reloading to dangerous levels. I'm not much on either telling people what to do on here or getting otherwise moralistic, but your stuff is gonna get somebody hurt. There is nothing about the format or content in my posts outside of the scope of "P.O. Ackley "Volume I Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders" 1962. I don't think we should dumb down all posts to the point of not including test data. I haven't read that particular treatise, but I take note that you did not say the loads were published in it. Are you saying they are published in Ackley's work? You have implied it.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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9x17mm 8.7 gr Power Pistol 1.09" 158 gr XTP 1187 fps, 5" barrel Bullschitt there!!! There is abosolutely no way you are running 158 grain Hornady XTPs, at anywhere near 1187fps in a friggin .380 ACP aka 9x17mm
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Are you saying they are published in Ackley's work? You have implied it. He lists the loads used in work ups to the point of failure in military bolt action rifles. I try to compliment his work. He did not publish any tests on Swedish Mausers, so I got a 94,96, and 34 for destructive test. Here are some examples from one of my posts 10 years ago: P.O. Ackley 'Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders Vol. 2', 1966, page 2, actions to be tested: 6. Eddystone-Enfield Number 952302 62 gr 3031 140 gr .270 Ackley magnum 102,000 psi 7. Remington-Enfield Number 673777 68 gr 3031, 180 gr .270 Ackley magnum 197,000 psi 13. British Lee Enfield, Mark III caliber .303, Number 41469 50 gr 2400, 150 gr .30-40 Improved [.303 Epps] 159,000 psi
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130 |
9x17mm 8.7 gr Power Pistol 1.09" 158 gr XTP 1187 fps, 5" barrel
100% capacity with 1.09" COAL, 158 XTP, is 3.74 grains of PP for just under 25k PSI; Clark's only claiming 232% capacity... at 7.7 grains QL is only projecting a mere 618,000PSI!Anyone want to volunteer to test drive that load in a PPK? Velocity estimated in excess of 1800 fps. To hit 1187 fps, about 5.0 grains of PP (still 133% capacity and better than 55kPSI) would do it, according to QL. 9x19mm 11 gr Power Pistol 1.69", 158 gr XTP
1.69" COAL has the 158 XTP seated just a TAD long... like 0.272" IN FRONT of the case mouth.... Hmmmm At standard COAL (1.169"), 100% capacity with the 158 XTP is 5.2 grains of PP, for a max load at about 33k PSI. Clark's only claiming a 212% capacity load, and 1,390,000PSI. Yeah, try THAT in a Beretta M9.... 9x23mm 16 gr Power Pistol 1.36", 158 gr XTP
Ah, I stand corrected. It's only a 186% capacity load, and at 474,000PSI....
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Are you saying they are published in Ackley's work? You have implied it. He lists the loads used in work ups to the point of failure in military bolt action rifles. I try to compliment his work. He did not publish any tests on Swedish Mausers, so I got a 94,96, and 34 for destructive test. Here are some examples from one of my posts 10 years ago: P.O. Ackley 'Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders Vol. 2', 1966, page 2, actions to be tested: 6. Eddystone-Enfield Number 952302 62 gr 3031 140 gr .270 Ackley magnum 102,000 psi 7. Remington-Enfield Number 673777 68 gr 3031, 180 gr .270 Ackley magnum 197,000 psi 13. British Lee Enfield, Mark III caliber .303, Number 41469 50 gr 2400, 150 gr .30-40 Improved [.303 Epps] 159,000 psi Exactly. His loads show RIFLES coming apart in the 100k-200k PSI range. You're claiming PISTOLS holding together for up to 4x to 10x that!
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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His loads show RIFLES coming apart in the 100k-200k PSI range.
You're claiming PISTOLS holding together for up to 4x to 10x that! And yet the 9mm primers do not even pierce and the velocities are much less than predicted. Quickload has a problem with straight wall cartridges blowing unburned powder out the muzzle. It even says that in the instructions. And yet for bottle necked cartridges, even loaded way hot, the velocity prediction will be right in the middle of the string. Don't give up on Quickload, learn how to use where appropriate. When Quickload says you have 100kpsi in 6mmBR, the primer will pierce. Pic of one of my 7.62x25mm Tokarevs that more completely burns the powder.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130 |
His loads show RIFLES coming apart in the 100k-200k PSI range.
You're claiming PISTOLS holding together for up to 4x to 10x that! And yet the primers do not even pierce and the velocities are much less than predicted. Quickload has a problem with straight wall cartridges blowing unburned powder out the muzzle. It even says that in the instructions. And yet for bottle necked cartridges, even loaded way hot, the velocity prediction will be right in the middle of the string. Don't give up on Quickload, learn how to use where appropriate. When Quickload says you have 100kpsi in 6mmBR, the primer will pierce. So, "smart guy", what is actual pressure reading on a Tok, rechambered to 9x23Win, and loaded to a 186% compressed load of PP under a 158 grain XTP?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Pic of one of my 7.62x25mm Tokarevs that more completely burns the powder. Now, that is really something.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Now, that is really something.
That is relatively easy to make, given the manufacturer-ability of Tokarev barrels. I just took a surplus Parker Hale sniper trainer barrel, cut off the 308 chamber, and reamed for 7.62x25mm. If you can't do the mill, lathe, and weld, it would be cheap to have a gunsmith do it.
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. -Ernest Hemingway The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything.-- Edward John Phelps
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
Are you saying they are published in Ackley's work? You have implied it. He lists the loads used in work ups to the point of failure in military bolt action rifles. I try to compliment his work. He did not publish any tests on Swedish Mausers, so I got a 94,96, and 34 for destructive test. Here are some examples from one of my posts 10 years ago: P.O. Ackley 'Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders Vol. 2', 1966, page 2, actions to be tested: 6. Eddystone-Enfield Number 952302 62 gr 3031 140 gr .270 Ackley magnum 102,000 psi 7. Remington-Enfield Number 673777 68 gr 3031, 180 gr .270 Ackley magnum 197,000 psi 13. British Lee Enfield, Mark III caliber .303, Number 41469 50 gr 2400, 150 gr .30-40 Improved [.303 Epps] 159,000 psi Wow dude. You are like, awesomely insane.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,467
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2005
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This all renders me absolutely speechless.
I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass. And I'm all out of bubblegum. I do tend to fit in well wherever I go in person. The campfire is the most outside exposure I get. No TV, no newspaper.
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