You hear a bump in the night and voices downstairs. It's a home invasion by more than one badguy. They are now coming up the stairs and you have only seconds...

Earlier in the evening you had placed one firearm next to your bed:

- A tested and true semi-auto pistol, any brand, any chambering, any load.

- A tested and true revolver, any brand, any chambering, any load.

- A $225 12-guage Mossberg Maverick Pump (7+1), any load. You ran a half a box of shells through it as a basic function check.

Auto.


Travis

Mossberg pump 12g with #6. Sounds like they'll be within #6 distance.

Although I might want a small caliber with suppressor (don't want to wake the wife)

Shotgun...no question. The mere sound of the shotgun being chambered may cause the threat to leave.

pistols are for fighting your way to a long gun,
shot inside, rifle outside.

Auto.

One can shoot it with one hand, left or righty, depending on cover or in case one arm gets shot up and it's easier/faster to top up with one hand.

If I were smart, I'd have it set up with a tanker-type or bandolier type holster so I can put it away quickly and run.

Shotgun...with a thought not to short stroke it. dvnv

Not playing. The deck is stacked. Two tested and true handguns and one UNtested shotgun.

I made the decision several years ago when my children came home from the hospital. All guns but one are locked in the gun safe except my XD40 with laser. It's locked in a gunvault on my night stand with a Surefire and spare mag.

Semi-auto.. More maneuverable, faster to reload, more rounds/magazine..

Easy choice.. (for me)

I disagree. Mossbergs are notoriously reliable pumpguns. You've function-tested it with half a box of shells, which means it works.

JOG,

Too many variables to choose.


R

Travis,

Have you been out in the pasture again???

Why, I thought you were a revolver man. Maybe I got the wrong dude.


R

A shotgun is an excellent stationary weapon for home defense. But were one forced to move to check on family members, it's a poor choice.




R

BTW, if were talking handgun, semi-auto for many reasons.


R

The second Gen Glock 19 that is always there when not on my belt.

I disagree...it is my first choice if available. Instant stopping power as has been proven to me on many a charging pit bull.

I'd roll a hang gernade down the stairs and hide under the bed.

That'd get it done for sure, but it'd put the screws to any weekend plans you might have. Just think of all the drywall repair and painting you'd have after a kaboom like that.

Yep, shotguns rule for that kind of work. I don't have one right now so have to rely on my handguns but a basic cheap pump 12GA with a light on the nosepiece is on my "to get - soon" list.

I don't feel undergunned, however, with my Lazergrip equipped Colt delta elite 10mm shooting 180gr Gold Dots.

My only quibble, and it may seem a small one, is I'd want a few more shells through it before I would accept it as "tested and true."

And anyway, aren't you the guy who wants to put a couple of hundred rounds of pistol ammo through a handgun before you bet your life on it? Why wouldn't that apply to a pump shotgun?

And another thing, why does the OP specify half a box of shells instead of saying it's tested and true?

....not sure what a "hang gernade" is? Something that you shoot out of a "hang gun?"

I'd grab my carbine. But, of those choices, it would be the semi-auto handgun.

I would call the police and cower till they arrived....

No premeditation here�.



Snake

One? Hah.. What good's that gonna do you if the 'bump in the night' happens to be at the time you're pinching a nighttime loaf? Hehehee..

Rule of thumb is to have at least one available for each window.....a rule I happen to mostly follow..

There's only one me.


Travis

#3 all day every day.

Gunner

Any choice will require some concessions, and I'm curious about that particular concession. I figured most would skip the revolver, and that a proven shotgun would beat out a proven semi-auto most of the time. The decision gets tougher if the shotgun was only function tested and tougher yet if the shotgun was a cheaper model.

Most of us make this decision by what we keep by the bedside every night. I keep a H&K USP in 40 S&W. Shotguns, (which I've used on varmints outside at night many times) are too slow and unwieldly in a house. I want to be nimble and quick.

And if I hear one more time "Just rack the slide on a 12 gauge and the invader will run" ------- I'll regurgitate.

Roger that! It only works in the movies IMHO.

How you propose to maneuver a shotgun while walking the hallways of your home?

+1

The reason I chose the shotgun, regardless of the lack of use is because a firearm failure isn't limited to how many times you've used it. It fails one time, although that one time may be never, seldom, or all the time. It's each occurence. The odds of it failing don't decrease with continued use, compared to it's lack of use. Tried and tested doesn't mean anything, in my opinion. It's the "each" or "one" time you use it that matters. The shotgun, in my opinion is better suited to the job, manufactured by a reputable company. It's the right tool for the job, regardless of the lack of rounds through it.

[/quote]

How you propose to maneuver a shotgun while walking the hallways of your home?[/quote]


Really? You can't walk your hallway with a shotgun in your hands?


For this choice I'd choose the shotgun. But I wouldn't feel undergunned with either choice. Having the drop on intruders coming up the stairs with a shotgun, I'd actually feel fairly confident.

Muzzle down, drop to a knee if you need too and fire.

Yep, it was a pretty specific scenario.

without reservation, I'd grab this Springfield .45 with the Surefire X300

And you would be well armed indeed!

I would go with the 12ga and it wont be loaded with bird shot!And by that I mean it will be loaded with buck shot.Now if an intruder puts a handgun up against that he will lose!

If I'm up for a night time delivery there isn't anybody who's gonna wanna come in for any reason.

Revolver in the nightstand is for grabbing in two seconds.

I'd leave the auto.

If I had five seconds, it would be over to the closet for the Marine Magnum 18 1/2" bbl, with seven rounds.

JMHO

Mitch

+1 on 12 gauge with 00 buck. BTW, he won't hear a slide being racked. If he has excellent hearing, he might hear the safety coming off. The Winchester slug with 00 combo is great at home distances.

I'd go with the autopistol, I want one hand free if need be, to work a flashlight, light switch, telephone or whathaveyou. Shotguns are nice, but require two hands, at least for a second shot, and are easier for an assailant to grab and push the muzzle away. Let's face it, a longer barrel give HIM more leverage against you, if he's gotten too close (it might happen).

And, I just don't like Mossbergs.................

....I've shared that sentiment since my first part time job in a gunshop during high school 46 years ago.....but they're kicking butt in the market place now. They, like Savage, may be real American success stories of quality-resurrection. Kind of the opposite of Remington, unfortunately.

I have my shotgun with 5 shells with shot No.6 sitting in the tube behind my door.

10 rounds w/20 pellets each #1 Copper Plated Buck in a 2 3/4" 18" cylinder bore SG is not unwieldy to me, course theres a 45 ACP, 9MM, AR-10 w/90 round drum, and AR-15's back there too.

I'm not worried, and am not influenced by hollywood bullchit.

Gunner

Auto

I'll take the shotgun, but want my 870 that's had 1,000's of shells run through it. It's leaning in the corner, next to the bed, loaded with #4 buck shot as I type

Out of your options the tried and true Ruger Security Six gets the nod. Not so much for me, but it's the one the wife is more experienced and comfortable with. The guns in the house (Notice I used plural) are set in strategic locations and they are all the same. Same model, load, grip and combination. I can get the job done quite nicely with them, as can she. Once the kid is older then the Remington 11-87 Police with Surefire comes back out, cause Mama also loves it!

actually i am aware of a situation that did occur similar to what you described.
Guy living in a certain area of town, two story house, bedroom on second floor.
hears a pounding on the front door late at night and some guy yelling Police. They didn't look like police. They busted the front door down as he was on second level behind a railing and the shooting started. Lots of shots fired. Police came to take the report after it was over, no body hit.
A few days later, the decision was made as to what to do to improve the odds. The result was a semiauto benelli with a light attached that could be worked one handed.
It was difficult doing a pump over that balcony.
To each his own.
Now by neighbor at the time had some people kick his door in, and a gunfight happened right next door to my house. They all missed but i was looking at the bullet holes in his house and accross the street where HE was firing the next day.
That five shot pistol looked pretty weak when there was three or four guys wanting to take up residence.
I was watching cops at the time and didn't hear a blasted thing.
Grillwork went on the front of my house a few days later.

Can I add a 16" AR in .300 Blackout to the list? With 30 round mag, and laser?

I got soured on mossberg shotguns with my first an only mossberg a 590 mariner. Was purchased as a "bear" gun. I test fired it several times, and it would not reliably feed from the mag.

In that scenario I'd lean towards a 45 acp auto. In an unagitated state I have no problem holding center of mass hits at 50 paces. Should be able to drill a third eyeball at bad breath range.

I keep my S&W J-frame hammerless revolver in 38sp+P in my nightstand.

Not unweildy to to SWAT team members coming through the door of the wrong house, either!

Oh, wait. I guess I shouldn't have mentioned that.

1. My Glock 20
2. My SW 500 loaded with MagSafe ammo

Auto in right hand, revolver in left.

I would call 911 and yell out "I have called the police you must leave now" then I would display my cell phone in my hand and shake it so that they could see it and be ascared that I had actually called the police

I'm a handgun person at heart, but in this situation, I'd go with the shotgun.

I'm going to wait 'til they're all on the stairs so they're nicely lined up with nowhere to run. The first SOB to peek over the top of the stairs is going to get a load of 00 buck right through the bridge of his nose to start the party. I'll probably get 2 more shots off before they can react at all. Then mop up what's left.

I'm holding my ground, not going downstairs after them. Call 911 on the cell phone and let the cops fix what's downstairs. They chose to get underpaid to be shot at, not me.

I got a maverick cut down to 1/8" over legal......so I guess I gotta go with that.
And I prefer to click the safety than rack the slide.
If thats not good enough then its one of the semi autos.

I just feel sorry for the poor bugger who tries.....i have got alot of pent up frustration to loose.....

Hang grenades can be thrown back.

This:


Then grab the shotgun for mop-up work. Or a mop for mop-up work, whichever comes first.

I'd probably have what I always have, my 220 SIG. But, in truth, any of the above can be made to work.
Since you heard them enter, you have the time to get ready for them. Use it wisely, and that means don't warn them that you are awake and making ready to shoot'em.
Shotguns are nice in that they stop super well. BTW, no bird shot, unless it's at least BB's.
They, shotguns, have some serious drawbacks at close range. They make poor clubs.
But, the bottom line, is that in that situation you fore warned, and you have some choice as to where and when the music starts. The battle is already going your way. E

No, an AR-10 w/a 90 round drum and 130 TTSX's @3K LOL

Gunner

To answer the question seriously, I'd take the shotgun in a New York minute.

When it comes time to really kill or be killed and carryability or concealment is not a factor, I want the most destructive weapon I can get my hands on. A Ma Deuce would not be unwelcome if it means dropping them before they have a chance to harm me.

Really? You can't walk your hallway with a shotgun in your hands?


For this choice I'd choose the shotgun. But I wouldn't feel undergunned with either choice. Having the drop on intruders coming up the stairs with a shotgun, I'd actually feel fairly confident. [/quote]

Ralphie,

Were it only so simple. Not only do you have to consider maneuvering it, you're also going to have to worry about having it taken from you.

While doing an interior search, a handgun is the way to go. But I'd suggest not doing so unless you have other family members to protect.


R

The room-broom of course.

Shotgun, even if it is a Mossberg.

And if you run it dry it will make a far better club than any handgun.

Interesting listening to the trains of thought on this thread so far.

^^^^^^^

My train of thought has left the tracks.

Gunner

Really? You can't walk your hallway with a shotgun in your hands?


For this choice I'd choose the shotgun. But I wouldn't feel undergunned with either choice. Having the drop on intruders coming up the stairs with a shotgun, I'd actually feel fairly confident. [/quote]

Ralphie,

Were it only so simple. Not only do you have to consider maneuvering it, you're also going to have to worry about having it taken from you.

While doing an interior search, a handgun is the way to go. But I'd suggest not doing so unless you have other family members to protect.


R [/quote]

Do you think a handgun can't be taken from you? Gimme the shotgun, everytime. I don't know why I would have a Mossberg, but it is what it is.

Got a little Mossy 500 10 shot pump, melted the factory tacks on the heat shield speed testin buckshot one day, took it to the shop tigged her a bit, hit it with some high heat header flat black and shes GTG.

Gunner

I lied, just went and looked, its a 590 Mossberg.

Gunner

Shotgun, much as I love my semi-auto pistols.

More chance for hits with misses than the pistols & more likely to put an intruder out of commission with any hit.

I've seen a couple of people who were hit with shotguns at close range...........not pretty & neither survived.

MM

Shotgun isn't that much further out than one of your arms. If you've let three bad guys within arms reach, you probably already lost. Defensive shotgunning isn't rocket science and a few techniques can significantly limit your losing the fight even if someone is less than an arms length away. They grab the barrel and you pivot, drop or move the butt and it puts the barrel end where you want it or in a place that at least stops the fight for them. If they can grab the action, they'll have grabbed any pistol/revolver.

auto hands down 16 40's work

Really? You can't walk your hallway with a shotgun in your hands?


For this choice I'd choose the shotgun. But I wouldn't feel undergunned with either choice. Having the drop on intruders coming up the stairs with a shotgun, I'd actually feel fairly confident. [/quote]

Ralphie,

Were it only so simple. Not only do you have to consider maneuvering it, you're also going to have to worry about having it taken from you.

While doing an interior search, a handgun is the way to go. But I'd suggest not doing so unless you have other family members to protect.


R[/quote]
Nope...wrong again. Based on my training and experience there is no finer tool for room clearing than a 12 ga shotgun loaded with 00 Buckshot. Proper training and 100's of practice sweeps will ensure one is both proficient and capable of handling a shotgun in tight urban environments such as one's home. Any attempts to wrestle or disarm me will result in a mouth-full of barrel or the butt-stock of the weapon to the teeth. It is highly unlikly that Mr. Badguy can get a hand on the weapon before emptying at least one load of 00 Buck into him if proper tactics are employed.

I like shotguns.

Bedside gun is a extended magazine 870 with a 18 1/2" Mod choked barrel and tritium rifle sights.

Very nice choice sir

We gotta keep in mind the difference in choices could very well be defined by the differences in home construction/environments..

In my particular house - because of it's design - a shotgun in the bedroom would place me at a disadvantage.. For others, it may be by far the best choice..

Actually, (but it's not one of the choices) my STAG AR would be better...but of the offered choices, I'd have to stick with the pistol..

I agree with Redneck�

To state that YOUR choice should be the choice of everyone is awfully arrogant or at least presumptuous.

The AR with 16" barrel is at least 2-3" shorter than a pump shotgun, so it is a bit handier in close quarters, and has a higher cap magazine. Granted, you have to place the shots, but wild firing with a shotgun may not be effective, either.

The Kel-tec KSG looks interesting but I'm not eager to pay $1000 to be their Beta tester

I'm too superior to be arrogant.

Another point to be made for the shotgun is it will not overpenetrate through walls with 00 Buck. The last thing I would want are rounds zipping through the house.

I think 00 buck would handily penetrate the interior walls of my house, but then I have good reason to know how flimsy they are.

BTW, and just for folks' reading pleasure, a LEO of my acquaintence recently examined several interior walls of an apartment building after a drug dealer let off a single round of 7.62x39 FMJ at another drug dealer. The bullet missed the intended miscreant, penetrated a wall, entered the apartment across the hallway, passed harmlessly over the recumbant form of a baby sleeping in its crib, exited through a window pane and then he lost track of it after that.

We can construct scenarios 'til the cows come home (where did room clearing come into the picture?) but the OP was pretty clear. Bad guys coming up the stairs, you're alerted and have had time to arm yourself.

In the military when in a defensive position, you use your wire, mines and other obstacles to funnel the enemy into your killing zones so your WMD can take them out. What the bad buys have done is funnel themselves right into your killing zone, giving you just about the perfect defensive advantage.

They're coming up the stairs so it's highly likely they're in single file. Unless you live in Rhett and Scarlet's mansion, they have a wall on one side and a bannister on the other, so they can only go forward, backward (difficult for anyone but the last in line) or over the bannister. You're alert, they don't know you're alert. You know your target will appear in about a 3-4 foot wide area. You live here and walk those stairs every day so you know where they are even if you had your eyes closed.

The first guy will appear before the others have cleared the top of the steps to be able to see you. As soon as the first guy's torso clears the top step - BOOM - he's now a slippery obstacle for the others. If you're a hard core sort, you exploded his head to add a little psy-ops effect to the next in line. The remaining bad guys can either go forward one at a time over that obstacle, still not knowing your exact position except that you're in front of them while you know exactly where they will be, or they can retreat. They can try to come forward two at a time but that's going to be difficult on the average home stairs, plus if they're shoulder to shoulder they don't have any room to maneuver at all. And they still have to step on or over the inert form of the first guy in line. If they come forward one at time, they instantly have two obstacles to walk over, then three, so on.

Unless there are more than eight, (7+1 in that Mossberg) they are basically committing suicide to continue to attack.


In this scenario basically any of the three choices would work, I'll still choose a shotgun since I don't want to see if I can acheive a "one shot stop" or try for a CNS hit with a handgun, especially in the dark - I want to f***ing blow the sh*t out of their heads and insides. I don't want to give them one teeny tiny chance to return fire, I want them DRT. I'll worry about the mess later, when I'm still alive and they aren't.

Very well thought out and said, Jim.

In my house, with its particular layout, any intruder(s) coming up my stairs has already foiled the Rottweiler outside and just committed suicide by coming in.

In the scenario laid out by the OP, I will be shooting coarse shot (Win 1300 instead of a Mossy, but details....) down into the intruder's head/neck/back at 12 feet. Additionally, there will be a 10mm Glock in my waistband.

I too will chime in for the shotgun. I have been shooting pistols for 45 years, and after uncountable ten's of thousands of rounds I like to think I'm fairly proficient with one. The one time I had to deal with an intruder that I 'heard' upstairs, I was shaking like a leaf by the time I got to the second floor with Beretta in hand. I seriously doubt I could have hit 'him' I was shaking so bad. It turned out to be the wind blowing a screen door on the 2nd floor porch. Then and there I stashed the Stevens 520 12 gauge riot gun in the dining room in place of the pistol.

Those of us not combat trained, or inured to violence, tend to be a shaky lot when confronted by an armed threat. A two-handed weapon is just the ticket for us, and I for one am not ashamed to admit it!

My thinking, and the more trained individuals like KG and Sagebrush can correct me, is that handguns are primarily offensive weapons - concealable, easily transported, and used quickly.
This is not to say a handgun can't be used for defensive purposes, We all know it can.

The shotgun is a primarily a defensive weapon, able to toss out a lot of lead from a fixed position into short range targets. This isn't to say it can't be used in an offensive way, as we all know it can.

I also like the shotgun because I can protect the girls in my chicken ranch without shooting up the houses across the way.

The thing that confuses me about the whole scenario is that the gun is to be placed next to the bed hours before the bump in the night occurs. Therefore, the entire scenario is about the gun one selects without knowing the encounter to be faced. Therefore, the selection should not be scenario specific. Because most of us already have a gun or guns by the bed, the choice already has been made.

Same here. I am a really good shot with a handgun by any objective standard. Always have been. AAA in Hunter Pistol silhouette. I was out this morning shooting at and hitting an old welding oxygen tank at 200 yards with my little SR22. The 6" ringer at 25 yards was a goner every shot.

The one time I had to use a handgun in an emergency situation was when a Florida razorback charged me. I missed him three out of four times at a distance of 6-8 feet with a S&W revolver and the one shot I did hit was in his foot. Thank God he was dead on his feet already or I would have some neat scars to show.

Anyway - that was in my twenties and it taught me two things that have stayed with me over the next 30 years. 1 - a defensive handgun has to hit where your wide open eyes are staring 'cause you probably won't be calmly reciting your mantra of "sight alignment - sight picture - breathe - aim - squeeze". If you're mentally prepared and ready to fight, okay, maybe, but if the SHTF and yells "Surprise!" - you probably won't. 2 - if you have a chance to use something besides a handgun, use it.

Hits are what count, and hits are hard to come by with a a handgun when you're excited and scared sh*tless. Use something you can hit with, everything else is secondary.

...Respectfully Rancho....I suggest that it's just the opposite. The handgun is by nature a defensive weapon. It's very design and purpose is to be convenient and utilized in a reactionary mode until you can get to more suitable weaponry. There's nothing that it will do that a long gun won't do better except for being handy. If you have a long gun in your hands that indicates that the element of surprise and reaction is compromised---you know that there's a threat and have prepared yourself for it's impending occurance. There's a fine line in supposed "defensive scenarios" (i.e. house clearings) where the prey becomes the predator and go from defensive to offensive.

Those who have actually cleared houses for a living, at least those whose names I recognize to be cops, go with semiautos.

About 25% of cops murdered in the line of duty were murdered with their own guns.

To answer your question, Jeffery, sure a handgun can be taken away from its user. However, when clearing a house by one's self, I sure as hell wouldn't want to do it with a shotgun. Were I able to remain in my room thus forcing the bad guys to come to me, I'd take an 870 with slugs or 000 buck.


R

I would be interested to hear an example of anyone who used a handgun to "fight his way to a long gun".

Why do I need a gun?
I sleep naked, just the sight of me rushing down stairs nude would scare the life out of anyone.

Jim:

I hope you repost this the next time somebody brings up the subject of shooting a charging grizzly with a handgun.

I'm taking the Mossy and a case of 00 and grabbing my Glock 19 just because it's there.

Then wait quietly and patiently in the room at the end of the hall as far away from where the stairs come up as possible.

Then when they get into the hallway I'm hitting the clicker and then sending up a star burst, sending a couple of belts through the pig.
Now why did I bring the shotgun...

revolver with ctc lasergrip. left hand for flashlight or cell phone.

could also be in close quarters and need to be ready to shoot in multiple directions.

Multiple intruders coming up the stairway, they may be packing heavy duty goodies themselves. The shotgun with 00 buck shot gives me the upper hand.

I've owned a 590, and I can't say anything bad about that one.

1998, I ran a Sports Authority. Got a case of 5 Mossberg 500's in, wooden stocked.

3 buttstocks were split, 2 wooden forearms were cracked, not from shipping damage but from improperly seasoned wood. Of the 5 shotguns, 4 of them had sling swivel studs that did not have a hole drilled through them for the sling.

Needless to say I was shocked at the numerous issues and total lack of QC.

That's a shame; you're quite the entertaining fellow.

I was the fortunate recipient of a week-long tactical shotgun course, and what they add in firepower they lack in portability. Yeah, you can walk down your hallway carrying your shotgun at the shoulder ready position, but when it's time to turn a tight corner, or even a "U" type turn in the home construction you'll instinctively be thinking, "Schitt, I wish I had my hand gun". There are semi-autos that are dead-nutz reliable that carry a large payload of man-stoppers; Mag Safe Ammo comes to mind. I learned some really slick techniques for searching a building for an armed bad guy with a shotgun, but, the bottom line is the handgun is my weapon of choice in enclosed spaces. Using a shotgun in a dwelling just forces you to expose yourself to possible bad guy bullets when had you been using a handgun you would not have been forced to expose yourself while still covering an area or your target.

What about a glock 17 with a light/Laser combo on it loaded with fed 115 grain +p+ cartridges? That's what my friend uses in his house, we don't believe in violence at our house, so just the cell phone and alarm is good to go!

You don't believe in violence?

That a joke?

why no, I am a practicing Rastafarian...

I was at Jeff Hall's talk at IALEFI in 2008 (IIRC, in Reno) where he showed several dashcam videos of cops who were fired upon by the subject of a "traffic stop". In two of those videos the cops slapped leather and fired back at the perp while retreating to their squad cars. In one case the cop was trapped behind his car with his shotgun inside the car, and was murdered by the perp. In the second case the cop popped his trunk to get his shotgun and killed the perp.

To put that in perspective, I've seen dozens of videos in which cops finished the fight with their handguns right then and there. Especially in rural areas, his duty handgun may be all the copper has to fight with... as Mackay Sagebrush says, you don't often get the fight you want, you get the fight you got. You have to deal with it with what's right at hand. This is why I believe it's imperative that a patrol officer should have a generous supply of reloads on his person at all times. A Glock 17 with 2 reloads on the belt gives a copper 52 rounds of ammo on his person, and I know guys who carry 4 spare mags. But I know of departments that issue single-stack 45's with only 2 spare mags, which gives the officer only 25 rounds on their person. Not good, IMHO.

"Fighting your way to your long gun" doesn't happen very often. I expect that was your point/suspicion, and you're correct in my view.

Nothing like having the police minutes away, when the difference between life and death is seconds

...but Doc, I'm guessing that you'd also agree that a lack of frequency doesn't negate it's tactical soundness....the scenarios are rare in which a handgun is to be preferred over a long gun (if available) and a number of those can be overcome by indepth training. Of course, JMO

Greg, of course you're right. I would NEVER want to be taken to have said that the long gun is not a crucial component of the cop's equipment.

Just because few cops get into gunfights with their rifles/shotguns doesn't mean that they don't need 'em. I can't tell you how many OIS's involve police handguns vs rifles with certainty, but just based on my files alone the proportion would have to be 20:1 or higher.

One cop I know in a large metro area has killed 8 people with his duty handgun. He's never fired his shotgun at a perp. A deputy I know in a rural department has shot 3 people with his shotgun and 1 with his handgun. These two guys are differentiated, in my view, by the simple fact that the city cop goes into situations with his sidearm only almost all the time, whereas the rural deputy routinely carries his shotgun when he steps out of his patrol car except for traffic stops. Dunno if that adds anything to the equation, but there it is.

Doc,

You have to take into account the public's perception of a deputy walking up to their house carrying a shotgun. If it's a man with a gun call, the deputy will most likely stage at the inner perimeter and wait for back-up. If it's not a man with a gun call the RP may feel intimidated...guess who his next call will be to. If you do get in a fight that's not a lethal force encounter, what do you do with the shotgun? You can hardly set it down while you wrestle with some drunk. Those are a couple of the reasons I chose the 10mm. I could hit a man-sized target multiple times in seconds at 100 yards. Bad guys don't expect you to be able to ding them at 100 yards if you're not carrying some sort of rifle.

Yes, sorry to imply that he carries a shotgun everywhere he goes... wrote that poorly. I meant in any situation where he KNEW a fight was imminent or on.

Most of police work does not involve use of firearms.

My point exactly!

Jimmy,

You now have me concerned and confused. I tend to take what people on this board to say at face value. I've not been in many threads with you, but I seem to remember that with the appropriate firearm, you're not at all against turning some turd who's trying to harm you or your family into a man-sized sieve.

Shotgun with 00 buck. The down side to that choice is that at close range it makes an awful mess on the carpet...

Use 000 Buck. 00 Buck is .32 cal; 000 is .36 caliber.

Pretty big difference even though you lose 2 or 3 pellets in the count when you move up in size from 00 to 000.

In the specific scenario as posed, pass me the Mossberg. I do not have extensive experience in gunfighting, clearing rooms, etc. regardless of the type of weapon chosen. In this case, there are multiple bad guys coming up the stairs. I don't think that I am going to be making any big moves around the house where the added control of a handgun would be a definite advantage. Why not do something like shout a warning that anyone attempting to come up the stairs is unwelcome, and if they ignore the warning, fill the staircase with multiple rounds of 12 gauge fodder?

I'm thinking that a Mossberg pump with half a box of shells through it is just as unlikley to malfunction as a "tested and true" autoloading pistol, and perhaps a revolver too. In fact, other than the rare short cycle of the pump (i.e. operator error), I don't believe I have ever witnessed a pump shotgun fail to feed, fire or eject a shell. Plus, I think it would be MUCH easier to miss moving targets with a handgun under such severe stress than it would be with a shotgun at the ready and firing from a defensive position. YMMV.

At 5~10 feet, a 1.5 oz load of #8 shot might as well be a pumpkin ball slug.

In a reverse situation two young ranch hands were coming home and saw a vehicle in their driveway that didn't belong there, parked right up against the side of the house. They backed up to the road which put them about 200 yards from the car. They watched as two Bruthas loaded the TV, Microwave, Stereo and some guns in their 1978 Pontiac Grand Le Mans. As the two Bruthas backed out they turned sideways toward the young ranch hands (brothers) who had taken the two 30'06 rifles in the truck rear window rack and had taken a hold on the car over the hood of the truck. One ranch hand put two into the engine block and the other shot through the door. The car, leaking coolant and oil badly, barely made it to town, to the health clinic. You see, the round that went through the door blew the thief's lower right leg off at the knee.

Saaaay, back up a minute, JOG...



You got the scenario backwards, buddy. Who says I get to choose my bedside gun based on my crystal ball? I'll have by my bed whatever I tend to have by my bed, and deal with whatever happens accordingly. I might choose the weapon, but I don't get to choose - or even predict - the mode of intrusion.

I did in the OP.

Well then...my crystal ball says there's more than eight intruders (I really pissed someone off) - so my auto pistol by the bed is this...

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/plr-16/



Seriously - a half-box of function check doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy, and while I don't really know, I expect that I will shoot (and reload) my very familiar auto pistol better under that kind of stress than the revolver.

Bad guys are notorious cowards. If you start dropping one after the other in 0.5 second intervals, you won't get past 4 before they're clawing at on anothers' azzes to get out of there as fast as possible. I think a man with a 7-shot .357 revolver, that knew how to use it, could handle anything short of a law enforcement major FU (wrong address on search warrant) or a drug gang that you've beat off in the past due to your skill, determination and just plain big balls...that has now decided to just blow your house up.

Interesting MD, A bud sent me some Winchester 12 ga. #1 Buckshot, how did they get 20 copper plated .30 caliber pellets in a 2 3/4" hull?, if ya do the math on it, thats a helluva payload.

And is not equaled to my 3" magnum Remington loads of 15 pellets of .33 cal OO buck.

I can get one extra round in the shotgun with the 2 3/4 #1 buckshot.

Gunner

Weigh 'em gunner. The powder doesn't take much room at all.

Now, are you calling BS, or are you honestly curious?

No BS, I cant figure why the 2 3/4 length shell packs more of a punch than a 3" magnum, and why, if they have the room, dont they add more of a payload to the 3" mag hulls.

Winchester part# X12C1B, old Bud said there is no equal in 2 3/4" 12 ga for entry/self defense loads.

Gunner

I always figured if someone had been with Custer at the Little Big Horn with a Browning Auto 5, 3" mag and a few bandoleers full of 3" loaded with 41 pellets of #4 buckshot.... that battle would have come out a lot different.

A couple .45 auto's and a bag full of loaded clips for the close in work would have been good to have also.

I agree with that.



There are several throughout the house, in unobtrusive places, ready. My only child is 19, and very gun savvy.

I was told 30 years ago by LEO friends that 1-Buck was the way to go in the "short magnums" (2-3/4").

These guys had never shot anybody with a shotgun, but they had all seen the results (mostly civilian on civilian) of different types of shotgun shootings, and they had instructors and guest lecturers who had shot people with shotguns.

And the general agreement among them was that Number 1 Buck penetrated well on humans at self-defense range, and 20 pellets made more of a mess than 9-12 pellets of 00 Buck.

FWTHIW.

A few years ago I got a good deal on a supply of Winchester Ranger "Law Enforcement Ammunition" 12ga, 2 3/4", 12 pellets , 00 Buckshot. I'll stick with this because I doubt I'll use it up any time soon....at least I hope not..