Have not run many bullets into water since my days of a being a commercial loader/reloader back in the 1980s. Decided to put a catch bod together and see what some of the rounds available today do when run into water...

Catch box is 4' long and will take 8 one gallon plastic milk jugs. Most HP bullets never make it beyond the third jug. Some harcast will make it through all 8. I also learned that plastic sometimes is too tough especially for the initial expansion and when possible use paper cartons instead. One 1/2 gallon paper carton equals 1-1.5" of ballistic gelatin... but collecting paper cartons is a pain and it takes a LOT of then to do a lot of testing...so I compromised by using one paper carton backed up by four gallon plastic jugs and then an out of date soft body armor panel to stop anything going beyond three jugs...







..and a chronograph 10' from the muzzle, the first carton 21' from the muzzle.



Bob

That's a really cool setup.

I've got some old boards that I lay in the yard on three sides with a stump at the back and put as many jugs as I need in the trough. It works, but I've no doubt that setup you've got would be handier.

So do you have any results yet?

I'm waiting to amass enough jugs to test the factory 125 gr 38 special +p Rem SJHP against some handloads I put together with the 135 gr GoldDot short barrel bullets in 38 cases.

Sounds like a very practical setup to me. Would like to see how your test results come out. E

Test #1:
Colt Super Elite
7" .38 Super barrel
9x23 Winchester
CorBon PowR'Ball
Velocity: 1672 fps

At the shot water from the carton hit me and the chrono. Blew the carton into pieces, split Jug #1 and put a hole into #2 where the bullet was found. The jacket separated from the core once in Jug #2.




If you look at the base board of the catch box you will notice that the round split the 2x6 lengthwise....

Test #2:
Colt Super Elite
7" .38 Super barrel
9x23 Winchester
Winchester 125 gr. Silvertip
1480 fps (odd as I have clocked this round at 1440 fps from the 5" barrel from this same gun)

Cut the carton in half and split Jug #1 and a small hole in Jug #2 where the fully expanded bullet was found.

Pretty dramatic stuff. I suspect you'll find that the SWC, or wide flat point hard cast loads will not do anything like that level of disruption. E

Test #3:
Colt Super Elite
5"
.38 Super
CorBon 100 grain PowR'Ball
1545 fps

Blew up the carton, punched a 1" hole in Jug #1 and the bullet was found in Jug #2. Again the core and jacket were in two pieces.

Test #4:
Colt Super Elite
5"
.38 Super
CorBon 115 JHC (Sierra Bullet)
1481 fps

This load is famous for going to pieces and it did....blew the botton right off the carton and split Jug #1...I got very wey on this one. Started leaving lead behind in the carton and the remains of the bullet were found in Jug #2...my favorite round...

Test #5
Colt Super Elite
5"
.38 Super
CorBon 124 XTP (Hornady bullet)
1379 fps

Blew up carton, big split in Jug #1 and passed through Jug #2. Found that the base of Jug #3 (did not enter)

Bob- how did the results line up with your expectations?

Test #6
Colt Super Elite
5"
.38 Super
MagSafe 68 gr.Defender (large shot and epoxy in a bullet jacket)...just devastating...
2034 FPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



After creaming the carton the heavy lead shot not just punched holes into the first and second juck but actually deneted the side of the third and several pieces of shot were found in the bottom of the catch box. The base of the bullet was found in the base of THE CARTON.

All for tonight... I want to thank my friend for letting me do this at his house.... I could run the hose right over to the shooting area to fill up the jugs and cartons....

More to come....

Bob

Fun stuff! Are you going to shoot any other calibers in this test? Like 40 cal, maybe?

Yes, fun stuff. That hornady bullet load would be my favorite so far. E

OR...no surprises so far as I have done a lot of these in the past. Biggest surprise was the Defender round as fast as it was and how far the pellets penetrated.

And yes, I plan on doing a lot of rounds.... Whatever I can get ammo for...

More later....

Bob

Test #7
Ruger GP100
.357 Magnum
4"
Hanson&Hanson .357 Magnum FMJ SpirePoint (like the old Winchester Metal Piercing round)
1189 fps

Split open the carton and punched a large in/out of Jugs #1 & #2. Put a hole right through #3 and #4 and would have probably went through 3-4 more but was stopped by the vest insert. No damage to the vest cover at all. Bullet found at the base of the vest...





..could be reloaded...

Test #8
Ruger GP100
.357 Magnum
4"
CorBon 100 grain PowR'Ball
1359 fps

Blew up the carton, split Jug #1 and punched a hole into #2. Jacket separated probably upon exiting from Jug #1 as a piece of the jacket was found in Jug #1. The core was found in Jug #2...

Test #9
Ruger GP100
.357 Magnum
4"
Handload of 110 grain SuperVel JHP/15.5 grains of Blue Dot
1519 fps

Blew up carton, BIG hole into Jug #1 leaving the jacket behind....that did not stop the penetration however as the core punched through the #2 and #3 jug and was found between the #3 and #4 Jugs...





Tough bullet for 110 grainer...

Test #10
KelTec 3AT
.380 ACP
2.7"
CorBon 70 grain PowR'Ball
1082 fps

Split the carton, jacket found in Jug #1 and core in #2

Test #11
Ruger GP100
.357 Magnum
4"
Speer .38 Special +P 135 grain Gold Dot HP
897 fps

Only split the milk carton, put a hole into the #1 Jug and split the handle coming out. Punched hole in and out of Jug #2 an was found expanded in #3.

On some of these rounds, like in .38 Special, I will try and repeat the round with a different barrel length. Since most of the rounds are geared toward defensive shooting revolver barrels generally won't be over 4" and semis over 5". The .38 Super with the 7" barrel was included as I wanted to know how much more velocity some of the rounds gained over a 4.25 and 5"...

If anyone has any requests I'll try and find that gun/ammo...10mm may be a little hard to find but most of the other calibers I can borrow...

Bob

45 ACP +P and Super

I have a comment.

Sunrich Organic Soymilk...really?

.45s are coming...I was going to shoot today but my friend's wife is home sick so no shooting near the house today...

JOG...it's good Chit....mixed with protean powder, frozen strawberries and non-fat yogurt it makes a one-glass breakfast.

Bob

I was purusing a lyman reloading book yesterday, and was looking at a 115grain .357sig load running slighting over 1500fps. I am going to have to try that. When i get a chance i am going to do again what you have been doing with the old speer flying ashtray bullet.

nice results
Any chance of trying Hornady Critical Duty?

I have switched my Critical Defense carry loads to the Duty ones based on Hornady's tests and those form gun rags.

I wish I could shoot outdoors and run the tests myself.

I'll see what I can find in the shooters group I belong to.....

Bob

If you want to or care to test some SERIOUS loads for the P3AT you showed in the tests I will sned you a couple of Buffalo Bore 100gr HCFN loads that chronograph FASTER than the Powr ball 70 that you tested. 1100 fps+ out of my P3AT. MAybe also a Buffalo Bore 90gr Gold Dot at 1250 for giggles and such.

INteresting test, thanks for doing it and putting up the photos.

Test #12
S&W Model 57
.41 Magnum
Remington 175 grain SJHP
1357 fps

Blew up the carton and jug #1. Found fully expanded in Jug #2...too bad Remington no longer makes this round.

That 41 load there is a close aproximation of my 10mm Auto handload. I am shooting a 180 Gold Dot at 1375. Looks like if it were to hit a bad guy, it might leave a mark...

I shoot the 175 JHC in my 4" M-57 41 @ 1536 FPS, I don't think that a 10mm will get there. The 41 has more juice than a 10mm

The speer gold dot has picture perfect expansion. Neat to see. Thank you for doing these tests and sharing.

Nobody lists any pressure tested loads for either rounds that reach those levels. Sierra, for instance, lists 1450 fps. with four different powders out of a 6 inch gun for the .41 Magnum with their 170 gr. HP. Accurate Arms does list 1705 fps. with 19.7 grs. of AA#9, but that's out of a 9.5 inch pressure barrel w/o any clynder gap.
Speer lists 1295 fps. with their 180 gr. GD with Blue Dot powder, but Alliant, who makes Blue Dot powder lists the same powder at .6 grs. less for 1220 fps. Accurate Arms list the Speer GD at 1290 fps. as well. E

I was going to do more tests to post yesterday but when I got down there I realized I had left the cartons at home...so I helped my friend run some fencing instead...hopefully I'll be able to run another batch of tests by Saturday....

One of the loads to be tested is the .41 Magnum 170 Sierra with 26.0 grains of H110....it is up in the 1400s from a 4"...

Bob

I did not say that my 10mm handloads were equal to or superior to any and all 41 Magnum loads, handloaded or otherwise. I merely stated that my handloads were nigh unto identical to THOSE loads, as tested by our illustriopus bullet tester, and they are. That was all. Certainly with heavy bullets especially the 41 MAgnum would leave a 10mm auto in the dust fairly soon. That was not the point.

As to a 175JHC at 1536, with my 10mm I don't even want to try. 1375 is plenty for me and mine. Matches many 41 Rem factory loads and most handloads in that cartridge, or at least close enough for me.

Just sold a 41 Magnum Mountain gun Smith&Wesson in SS. Even with the Mountain gun contour barrel it was heavier and much thicker than my Colt 10mm.

Bob,

I was hoping to see how many milk jugs a Berry's 210 would penetrate when fired from that pretty little Smith'.

Based upon my observations of a few years ago, you might need a longer frame on your bullet catcher, or make use of that ballistic panel.

IS...once I get done with the HPs and can get a bunch of jugs together I plan some tests with FMJs and hard cast bullets without the milk carton as it would be a waste. My friend has 4 kids so the jugs accumulate pretty quick...

Bob

Test #13
S&W Model 57
.41 Magnum
Remington 210 JSP
1319 fps

Exploded carton and split open Jug #1. Punched a hole through Jugs 2, 3 and 4 and punched through the vest cover..

My shooting assistant for the day...my friend's son...

Don't think he is 75 pounds soaking wet but he loves to shoot... He had never shot a .41 Magnum before...this is with 175 Silvertips...




....since he didn't think the recoil was too bad the .500 was next up....








Bob

Look at the 41 test above, the 41 has more penetration and desrtuctiveness than any 10mm

Yes, it, the 41 Magnum does have more power and destructive ability. But it also has alot more blast and recoil. E

Test #14
S&W Model 57
4"
Winchester 175 Silvertip HP
1143 fps

Split carton, punched hole in and out of Jug #1 and was found in Jug #2...

That's a big difference in bullet performance between the WW Silver Tip and the Remington soft point. I'm surprised to see that. In the .44 Magnum, the soft points and especially the HP stuff has always had a rep for expanding to the point where they come apart. E

Will need to run the Silvertip over the chrono again as I must have written it down wrong. That same box of ammo and gun ran 1225 last time it was tested. They normally run 1300 fps from a 6".

Can't say I am surprised at all. I have never heard of the Remington 210 SPs ever coming apart. Remingtom HP ammo was not out very long....never even heard about it until the 170s had been discontinued.

The Winchester round was specifically designed to be a defensive round even thought it say "Hunting" on the box. Low recoil, fast followup shots, fast bullet expansion for relatively low velocity....

CorBon designed their 170 .41 Mag. to be the same...there is one problem however...there are no lightweight self-defense bullets made for the .41 Magnum except for the 170 Silvertip. Everything else if made for hunting. In this case CorBon used the Sierra 170 Jacketed Hollow Cavity that has a lightbulb shaped cavity instead of the traditional HP. The bullet is also toughened with 1.6% antimony.

I used a 180 .44 at 1650 fps and blew through over 2' of deer breaking 2 ribs on the way out. Gary Reeder of Reeder Custom Guns uses the 170 .41 in his .41 GNR #2 at 2K fps to take elk...they are not made for self-defense....

Bob

Test #15
S&W Model 57
4"
CorBon 170 grain JHC
1257 fps

Split carton and Jug #1. Punched holes through jugs 2-3-4 and stopped at the vest insert.

That looks pretty good to me. I'll bet that load doesn't kick much either. E

The Silver Tip is a real dog IMHO. The 170 as loaded by Buffalo Bore is my choice as a self defense load in the 41 mag. In fact I suspect about any of the 210 grainers will do the job nicely

That 210 gr Remington done a very nice job, if accuracy was there and I didnt handload, I would consider that bullet for everything 41 Mag.

Gunner

Test #16
S&W Model 57
4"
Federal Vital-Shok 180 Barnes All-Copper HP
1341 fps

Split carton and blew up Jug #1, punched a large hole through Jugs 2 and 3 and ended up in #4.

Fascinating. I really appreciate your tests and posting the pics taken of them. E

U R welcome....Bob

Test #17
S&W 500
4" (3" barrel and 1" Comp)
Handload: 250 Sierra HP with 20 grains of Unique (Incorrect in picture, says Hornady)
1251 fps

Blew carton to pieces. Blew up Jug #1 and started leaving bullet pieces behind! Lead petals from HP left behind in Jug #2. Jacket found in Jug #3. Core went through Jug #4 and hit the vest insert.

20 grains of "Unique"??????

...it's a big case.

Lyman #49 20 grains with a Hornady XTP

Cases fall right out. I use 18.0 with the Berry's 350 plated. That is the load that my assistant shot his milk carton with above...

Unique works in everything...

Bob

psi listed at 48K...there are loads over 50K listed in other manuals so it seems fine...

Lots more interesting stuff there Bob. Thanks again.

I appreciate your comments in regards to the toughness of the Sierra 41 cal 170 gr bullet and self defense.

While I did manage to mutilate that bullet at magnum revolver velocities at point blank range into water.



I have used the 170 Sierra on flesh and blood one time. I was forced to dispatch a large feral dog (80 lb female) a few years ago. I hit it from about fifty yds with the same load as used for the photo above. Except that the bullet was fired from the Marlin carbine.

The shot was true, centered on the forward ribs. But the dog jumped and ran for 125 yds before falling over. The bullet exited without a lot of damage on the off side.

Had the target been a human assailant, he could have inflicted a lot of damage upon the defending citizen before expiring. Of course, we all know there is no true "one shot stopper" without a CNS hit.

I would not be scared to take a deer with the 170 Sierra from the revolver, but the 210 XTP would, I think, be an even better choice.

What I would really like to see though, is an elk taken with that 210 gr Remington.

Notice that the 170 Remington and 175 Silvertip both stopped in the second water jug even though they were 100 fps apart...that is because the bullets were both opening up rapidly. Both dump their energy early which is what you need in shooting lightly build Kritters.

The Sierra opened slower and was able to keep penetrating even though at the end it was about the same expanded size as the other two. As a result you loose all your energy on the off side of the target.

The Dallas Co. MEs office had a list of energy dumps for favored LE cartridges back in the 1970/80s. They put a chrono before and after a block of ballistic gelatin, recorded the velocity loss and then calculated the energy dump. There were a lot of rounds that would exit the block having dumped little into it where others of the same caliber and grain weight dumped a lot more.

There is a poster over on the S&W forums who shot over 20 deer while stationed in Alaska with a 6" 57 and the 210 SP....never lost a deer and I think no recovered bullets.

Pull the skin off a deer and look what is underneath...couple inches of meat, then ribs and then lungs...there isn't much more to a human.

The standard by which all defensive rounds are judged is the .357 Magnum 125 HP at 1400+- fps from a 4" barrel....it is a proven fight stopper. The sectional density of the 125/.357 is the same as the 170/.41 and 180/.44. Run a lightly constructed bullet in those calibers that will open up like the Silvertip or the Remington at 1400 fps and you will get the same results...that is why I think that the Remington 170 SCHP would have been the top self-defense round for the .41. The Silvertip has been proven to be an excellent stopper but if boosted to 1350 would easily equal the .357.

That said the Silvertip has modest recoil for a Magnum which allows followup shots...course with another 100 fps a followup shot might not be needed...

Bob

a few years ago i got into a bunch of those 210grain remington half jacket softpoints. I loaded them up thinking i wanted penetration. From your pictures, it would seem to be a good choice.
I would be interested to see when you get to it, what that hungarian mould keith style 230 grain bullet does with the pentad hollow point. I haven't cast any yet.

More fun stuff to look at and read! Enjoying this thread, immensely. Did you get the 380 and 10mm ammo I sent to you yet?

I have predictions and pre concieved ideas about what I THINK they will do, dyin to see what turns up here.

I am anxiously awaiting the return of these tests! RJM, are you back among us again, yet?

Bob,

While you are at it, how about the factory Speer 210gr GD round? They say it is a hunting round, but it goes with me on the trail, and in town from time to time.

Nice to see you back posting Rick....

...and yes, if I had not run out of jugs that last day the 210 Gold Dots would have been tested. Have been a little busy as you know but hope to start the shooting again in the next few weeks...

Ron...have not had the chance to use that great mould we bought off the CBForums..soon I hope.

Mark...I am looking for someone locally with a 10mm but nothing yet...



Bob

Mark...I am looking for someone locally with a 10mm but nothing yet...



Bob[/quote]

If you dont have one by deer season out there, and you have a good place to hunt I will fly out there with mine, along with my Winchester Model 71 348WCF and all of my Elmer Fudd red and black wool plaid stuff, including LL Bean Maine hunting shoes

wheres the bullet?

...pulled up for me...perfect mushroom....

Bob

thanks I see it now

Got time to shoot a few more tests yesterday...forgot the camera however so I have to take some pics of the recovered bullets and will post them shortly....

Bob

Wanted to post some pics but Photobucket has a major problem right now that hopefully will be cured shortly....

Bob

Test #18
KelTec 3AT
1.5"
.380 Buffalo Bore 100 hardcast
964 fps

Split the carton and punched a hole through 4 jugs stopping at the vest insert. Bullet could be reloaded and shot again. Thanks to Mark for providing the round...





Bob

COO-EL!!!! that is what I was hoping to see from these! Mucho penetration. That is the one weak link with a 380 for self defense IMO, adequate penetration. I will be anxious to see how the Buff Bore 90gr XTP HP's that I sent you do. I load these (100gr HC Buff Bore and 90gr Buff Bore XTP's) alternately in my P3AT so as to be able to make both deep holes AND wide ones in a target.

Thanks TONS I now have even more faith in my P3AT and the loads I have chosen.

I am guessing the 10mm ammo I sent you will also be quite impressive once you find a 10mm handgun to use them in, as well.

Test #19
KelTec 3AT
1.5"
.380 Buffalo Bore 90 grain JHP
1058 fps

Split carton and found fully expanded between Jug #1 and Jug #2. Jacketed separated from core once inside #1 but both made it out of Jug #1. Thanks again to Mark for the donated round.

Hmmmm.... Not so awsome. I wish Buffalo Bore loaded Gold Dots for thier 380 HP round. I might have to load some myself or just load 7 rounds of the hardcast flat nose rounds in my 380. Kind of telling here.

I wonder if there is a 100gr .355 Gold Dot? If so, I might try loading some up.

..why not load every other round with CorBon PowR'Ball if you want a little more penetration with expansion.

But the bottom line is that the .32s and .380s are LiteWeights and in a tiny gun like the 3AT you are not going to get a lot of velocity...

Many years ago when I was with DPD and we had some credible threats from some Cuban drug dealers who took exception to our trying to shut down their business I carried a MAC11/.380 submachinegun with a 16 round magazine. There were 4 stacks of rounds in the 16 round magazine that went: HP, HP, Glaser, AP. It would dump the 16 rounds in about a second so I figured that no matter what was hit the appropriate round would find its mark...

Bob

That mac11 would be a serious CCW arm for sure!

I am coaching my wife, who carries the P3AT when she carries, on speed shooting with that gun. 7 rounds as fast as she can pull the trigger so as to get the same effect, i.e. lots of holes of different flavors. HP's and FNHC's above alternating.

I am not comfortable with the uber lightweight bullets such as Powrball when heavy clothing or an extra large bad guy may be encountered. Feel much better with bullets at the heaviest end of the scale, especially with a minimalist caliber like the 380. I might even switch over to all Buffalo bore 100gr FNHC's for her now that I see how incredibly well they perform.

Test #20
S&W Model 57
4"
Speer Gold Dot (Deep Curl) 210 grain HP
1235 fps

Blew up carton and Jug #1. Split Jug #2 and punched holes in #3 and #4. The bullet put a small split in the rear of Jug #4 but failed to get out of the jug as it was stopped by the vest insert.

That is a NASTY load! Any luck locating a 10mm? Still have the buff Bore 90gr HP 380 ammo t test?

Luvin this thread, fun stuff.

There is no expanding bullet that is fired from a 380 that will give what I would consider adequate penetration. The one tested did as well as could be expected.

The 100 grain hard cast tested did extremely well for a 380 and is by far the best choice

Kinda what I am thinking if the 380 is the best that Sherri will carry or that I can pack in certain situations like the beach etc.

Test #20
Colt Diamondback
4"
Fiocchi .22 Magnum 40 grain JHP
1249 fps

Split carton and then punched a hole through 4 jugs and came to rest on the vest. No expansion.

If you want to test what SHOULD be a kick butt 22WMR load, I would suggest the new Hornaday Critical Defense 45gr load formulated to bring top shelf velocity from a handgun. I can send you a couple if you like.

MARK

...have not been able to find any locally....

Bob

I will try to remember to ship a couple out to you. Any timetable on running those Buffalo Bore 380 HP rounds through your test mediums soon? Do I need to fly out with my Delta Elite and give those 10mm rounds a platform to perform from Just kidding on that last one, cannot afford the plane fare these days <G> . Thanks again for a great and entertaining thread. One of my favorites of all time from the 'fire.

i will have to go look, but i think i have some barnes pistol projectiles in 155grain .40caliber that of course would work in a 10mm. That would be interesting to see go through those milk jugs.

Test #21
Colt Diamondback
4"
CCI .22 Magnum +V 40 grain HP
1312 fps

Split carton, punched through two jugs and found between 2-3 jugs...no expansion...

Now the question is...why didn't the CCI go through all four jugs like the Fiocchi did?

Bob

Interesting...

Probably would have to repeat test with both rounds and take an average of each. Maybe one or the other's performance in your one time test was a fluke.

Maybe the Fiocchi tumbled faster, lost less momentum, restabilized quicker and so penetrated farther.

If CCI spent more time in the water plowing sideways, it could have lost momentum faster and penetrated less.

If it happens every time, there must certainly be something different between the two bullets.

...found a 10mm to borrow so will do the 10mm test soon.

Bob

EXCELLENT! I am SOOO looking forward to seeing how those Gold Dot loads perform in your test medium.

Test #22
Colt Diamondback
4"
CCI 30 grain TNT HP
1254 fps

Split Carton #1, hole through Carton #2, stopped in Jug #1..perfect mushroom...right down two the little Gold Dot in the center...

...also need to edit Tests #20 & #21. There was a hole through a second carton also before penetrating the plastic jugs.

When testing the rimfire ammo two, not one carton is used. Plastic jugs are very tough and don't give a good indication of shocking power. I would use nothing but milk cartons but they are just too hard to come by so they are used sparingly...Bob

Test #23
Ruger MkIII
5.5"
CCI .22 Stinger
1208 fps

Split carton #1, hole through Carton #2 and through Jugs 1-3 and stuck to the face of #4.

I have always liked the terminal perfromance of those Stinger loads. This one penetrated far better than I thought it would. If I was forced to use a 22LR for defense I might alternate these with some flat nosed non HP 40gr ammo like I do in the Kel Tec P3AT loads in .380.

I may have messed up...I am not sure if I used all cartons for the Stinger or two cartons and then 4 jugs... I am checking with my friend who was there....

Some other theories on stopping power....

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=96165&page=1

RJM, thanks for the link to that article! It is a kind of long read, but a REALLY GOOD treatise. I saved it to my favorites and am going to have my wife read it tonight. I have her about talked into upgrading the P3AT to at least a 9mm or 357SIG. She is petite with slender hands and fingers so too big of a gun just will not be fired, practiced with or carried, ever.

Looked at the new little SIG 9mm's last week and they are very intriguing to say the least. Might end up with one of those in the house. She would need to practice much more with it as it has a manual external safety and functions a lot like a mini 1911 or Colt Mustang but maybe she is ready to step up to one now.

Tset #24
Taurus 941
3"
CCI .22 Magnum 40 grain FMJ
Velocity not recorded

Zipped through 4 plastic milk jugs and stopped against vest insert.

About what I would have figured for that round. I have read and heard that 22WMR rounds will defeat most body armour, as will the new 5.7 FN round.

Bump...

Yeah, Bump! Where is the 10mm Gold Dot test...

I and another member here are collecting milk jugs to do some additional testing and reporting on some bigger handguns.

..it got too cold...and now it is 10* out.... Testing suspended till spring...

Two of my friends did get 10mms and so your rounds will be #1 in the spring...

Bob

Reviving this thread to add my own findings from a .380 test I performed a few days ago. I was shooting Remington's 102 gr Golden Saber hollow point and Fiocci round nose FMJ.

The Golden Saber chronied 840 fps from my Keltec P3AT and penetrated into the 4th milk carton, cracking the cardboard on the back side of the 4th carton and nearly entering the 5th carton, cracking the face of that carton also for a total of 15+ inches of penetration. Bullet was recovered in the 4th carton and looked picture perfect and even though the core slipped, it is still firmly attached to the jacket.

The set-up. I added more cartons after taking the pic and before shooting.







The Fiocci FMJ chronied 844 fps and penetrated fully through 6 cartons before sailing off into the sweet by and by, never to be found.

In summary, I'd much rather be packing my .40 S&W, but when I can only carry my Keltec, I feel a bit better knowing the Golden Sabers in the magazine performed quite well, IMO.

I'm curious of the hypothesis of your experiment, especially since shooters & hunters don't shoot into water.

This thread, did you read it, by any chance? This thread was started by another member who used water as his test media, as many shooters do because it's readily available and inexpensive. My addition to the thread is relevant because I used the same test parameters -water, and a similar caliber and gun to testing done earlier in this thread.

Nowhere did I imply that my test were comparable to the way the bullet would perfom on living tissue and I don't believe the creator of this thread did, either.

How would the loads I tested perform on a living creature? I can't say, but I can claim that it would likely perform about as well or better than the other .380 loads tested by comparing the penetration and expansion results of all .380 loads tested.

Thanks for adding to this... I was hoping to do more tests this year but I am about to leave for a long trip to Idaho and won't be back till it's cold...

Bob

dang was hoping to see the results of the 10mm myself


oh well patience has its own rewards I reckon.

interesting thread, thanks so much for sharing with us

have a great time in Idaho

Hi bruinruin,

I've never mentioned flesh wound predictability. I was thinking along the lines of penetration of practical media.

I am not sure of inferential predicability of water as a test medium.

A good idea might be to buy an intact car door from a junk yard, take it to a suitable location, and fire rounds through it. I have also seen photos of wounds, both of survivors and those on pathologists' tables. Handguns are not best for saving one's life, but they are most practical. Handgun stopping power is a gun magazine myth. It might not be wise to rely upon a myth.

For handguns to work at their optimum, deep penetration is crucial. In fact, I'd prefer through-and-through wounds. If the CNS ain't hit, you gotta get the bad guy's blood pressure to zero posthaste. And if a bad guy is on myth or PCP, just about everything we know is out the window. I know of a cop who shot a bad guy 6 times in his chest with the ultimate man stopper, a .357 Mag. The bad guy was trying to rack a police shotgun. Six .357 Mag rounds to his chest didn't cause him to flinch. However, when my friend fired one 870 round to the bad guy's chest, he became property of the coroner.

I have witnessed many penetration tests, including cars as media. But for non-law enforcement, shooting through cars assuredly has little application. However, one might have to shoot through a refrigerator.

In the very rare occasions when I carry a handgun for self-defense, it's loaded with heavy-for-caliber bullets; e.g., 180 grain LE .40 S&W rounds. A bullet performs a lot better if it penetrates, and heavy-for-caliber bullets usually penetrate deepest. And I don't like frangible bullets. I like, heavy, well-constructed bullets that remain intact with as close to 100% weight retention as possible. I use lighter bullets for only target practice.

+1 from here, on all accounts. Enjoy Idaho!

Since I submitted my hot rod 10mm loads for testing, I managed to do a little non scientific testing and learned that a 10mm/40 cal 180gr Gold Dot launched at 1375fps will blow a BIG hole through both sides of the chest cavity of a good sized Tennesee hog and cause the bark from the tree behind said hog to splatter far and wide with lots of remaining energy to do more damage. On a wounded but down hog, I learned that a shot to the forehead will blow out absolutely 100% of the brain matter out the entry hole wound and out the ear canals, then go deep into said hogs neck. Said hog quits wiggling after that encounter.

I burned my left leg really bad one week ago so have had to wear shorts all week, and it has been really hot as in over 100 degrees so did not wish to wear a cover garment while running around. So for this week my 1911 10mm and 329PD stayed home and my own P3AT (wonderful little hideout pistol) packed with four Buff Bore 100gr FN Hardcast at 1125 - as per the tests above - and three Buff Bore 90gr HP's wich chrono at over 1200fps from my "mouse gun", alterating the loads with the 100's being first and last up.

I love and usually pack either my full sized 10 or 44, but I sure as heck did not feel unarmed with my P3AT, those loads aboard!

A lesson here, maybe, about trying for a brain pan shot if pistol pill #1 or perhaps #2 do not incapacitate our bad guy. Such a need is why I insist on good sights on my handguns (P3AT the only exception) and practice the chest/head drill at the range.

IF one is confronted with a turbo bad guy wearing armour, one might only have the head or hip joints to shoot at. I am told that the center of the pelvis/hips area will put a man down really quick, meth or no. But I do not know this. Sounds right as if a persons upright standing support systems go off line, down would be the natural consequence? I am also told that such a hit is VERY painful, perhaps penetrating through even the Methamphetamine fog. Again, I do not know, only have heard and read this once or twice.

As soon as my leg injury heals, (NO driving or pistol handling while on Dilauted!) I might add my own milk carton tests to this thread with my other two carry pieces i.e. the 329PD and 1911 in 10mm.

I think that anyone who takes the time to do some similar testing should post it, and be thanked for so doing.

BruinRuin, THANK YOU for the Golden Sabre 380 tests! We have some of those around, and might have to add them to the mix. I also have some 180gr Golden Sabre 10mm bullets to load up and try, might have to add that to my reports here, soon.

This is where I stand, nothing has been proven at all for people or animals. For most, if you were at my back, I would say "forget it".
Useless testing from the start.

Bone is like shooting a rock, breaks fragile bullets. Lungs contain more air then water or blood. To stop a bullet in a second jug with broken parts, I can tell you how far that will get you.

I disagree. I have never seen a bone that was as hard or dense as a good solid rock.

I am in your camp as far as penetration being a key for the best and uniform results, but if one can get exit wound i.e. two holes penetration with an EXPANDING bullet, so much the better!

I load medium-heavy HP bullets in my 44 Mag and 10mm, because they are known to be able to expand and still penetrate well on two legged targets AND large big game. With my 380, the first and last load up have been proven to penetrate 24 inches of ballistic Gel and about as many water filled jugs or cartons as you want to put in front of them. The 380 needs the penetration help from the hardcast, overweight flat point bullets and +P+ loadings, the 44 Magnum and 10mm do not.

i am going with JWP here as i usually do. But broken bullets or boolits are not where you want to be.
Penetration alone is not enough and can fail as bad as a stopped bullet. Hunting is not like shooting a creep robbing you, Get it out of the way. So many try to equal that but it is just not the same. Some of the tests show a bullet will not get through a heavy coat and then go through a creep.
A HP in the .44 is not needed as it will limit penetration.
but a softer nose is needed in other calibers like smaller, the .357, but half the deer shot with it can be lost. fact, documented. light bullet with a fast stop. Energy dump junk.
Just read about a creep shot 7 times with a nine and survived. real bastard of a gun, just a tinker toy in the end.
Shoot jugs of water, better blow 4 to the moon and never catch the boolit for hunting.
Stop comparing creep shooting to deer or animals of any kind. A deer can go 200 yards with s shot that will put a man on the ground right now.
How do you make a .380 better? take it to .500.

Had some time today and it was actually a beautiful 50* day here is sunny NH...

Test 25:
S&W 657
4" .41 Magnum

Handload:
190 grain Mihec HPWC
8.0 grains of Unique
1302 fps

Blew apart carton, split first jug, front cone of bullet found in the first and second jug and the base of the bullet in the third.









Test 26:
S&W 657
4" .41 Magnum

Handload:
169 grain Mihec cast HP
14.0 grains Blue Dot

Blue carton apart, split jug #1, pieces in #2 and rcoverd the base in #3.







[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/alb...ts/20141226_184007_zpsaac2054d.jpg[/img]




Test 27:
S&W 657
4" .41 Magnum

Handload:
170 grain Mihec Cast small penta-point
14.0 grains Blue Dot
1337 fps

Blew up carton, blew large hole in Jug #1 and went through 2 & 3..found stopped against the vest.

[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Bullet%20Tests/007_zpsdcbab635.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Bullet%20Tests/008_zps2c86ecd7.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Bullet%20Tests/009_zps68a9212c.jpg[/img]

Test 28:
S&W 657
4" .41 Magnum

180 grain C.O.P. (Copper Only Projectiles)
1018 fps (very mild recoil)

Blew up container and complete bullet was found in jug #3







(this is the round I have been carrying in the 357 Night Guard and 4" Taurus TiTracker)



Test 29:
S&W 657
4" .41 Magnum

Handload:
205 grain Accurate #215V cast bullet .37 meplat
8.0 grains of Unique
962 fps

Split open carton, cut a round hole through all three jugs, cut hole in vest carrier and was found in the vest between the carrier and the kevlar...





...you could reload it....

Test 30:
S&W 357 Night Guard
2.5" .41 Magnum

180 grain C.O.P.
1067 fps

Actually shot faster than the earlier test from the 4" 657. The bullet split open the carton, went through all three jugs and was found resting between jug #3 and the vest. Two of the five petals failed to open.
















At this point I had run out of jugs and just one paper carton left. So I set it up with the vest insert (Class II) wrapped around it with an empty jug holding it in place. Besides the penta-point and HP 170+- grain Mihec cast bullets I found I had a few of the solids that were right about 180 grains. So I loaded up a 657 3" and shot the carton....I didn't recover the bullet however...

[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Bullet%20Tests/022_zpscca480c3.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Bullet%20Tests/023_zps64184768.jpg[/img]

...little too much penetration....

Mark...I ddin't have access to a 10mm or would have run your rounds...

Bob

Some tests with .45 and 9mm Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman rounds...

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...falo_Bore_.45_ACP_+P_255_Gr#Post10269240

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...falo_Bore_9mm_147_Grain_+P_#Post10269292