I just wonder about the levels of "power" that handgunners say they need these days. I talked to a guy at a gun shop the other day and he wasn't interested in a Colt SAA because he had black bear on his property. Now I live not more than 10 miles from this guy, so chances are the bear that are on his property are the bear that are on my property. And I'm here to tell you that if any of them hit 300lbs I'd be shocked.

But he wants a Ruger in .45 colt so he can push up the load. It took me 15 minutes of convincing that the current Vaquero's aren't much stronger than a Colt or Uberti; he still had skepticism in his eyes.

Now when I had my last Uberti, I worked up a load using a 275 grain Keith style bullet and a generous dose of either 2400 or 4227 (now that I need it, I can't remember which - that's gettin old for you). The end result was nearly 900fps out of a 4 5/8" barrel, and I'm here to tell you that's some POWER.

I used that load to L E V E L a pissed off 1,600 bull that was about to kill a neighbor. A shot through the side of the head and he dropped like he was hit by the hammer of thor. The bullet was never recovered and you could park a bus sideways in the wound.

Guys, that's a STANDARD pressure .45 Colt load. Yep, its on the the knife edge of SAAMI pressure limits, but according to the manual I pulled it from, it's within STD pressure limits.

Once a bullet hits about 800fps, (speaking of solids here) the only real advantage of velocity after that is a flatter trajectory for distance shooting. I say this with a mind toward the norm, not extremes. Of course you can get more performance out of an LBT style bullet at higher velocity, but that's a whole different arguement.

My point is, the standard pressure .45 Colt is a very powerful handgun. Inside of 50 yards, given proper projectile choice, it's a magnificent tool.

I may be wrong Kevin, but I'm guessing that you're preaching to the choir, brother. Bullet construction to cause more disruption/damage may help with adrenalin and/or drug induced targets, but other than penetrating armor/soft cover, the added velocity doesn't accomplish much until you get into rifle catagoies and mach+ speeds. Of course I'm not a ballistician and could be wrong.

I shoot those 270 gr Thunderhead bullets outta my Colt SAA at 900 fps, havent hit any game with them yet, but the WHOP they give when they land in test media is very convincing.

Gunner

In "Bullet Penetration", Duncan McPherson makes the point that handgun loads that recoil too much are counter-productive. In self-defense situations, they can make follow-up shots too difficult and most people will shoot more accurately with milder loads. He even says that in a way, a .22LR is a better tactical weapon that a .44 mag.

His studies were confined to bullet damage in human soft tissue, not bears, but it's still an interesting point.

There's the nugget. The whole thing might be a few characters over-limit for a tag line Kevin, but it's worth a try. If so, go with the bolded part.

There are people who buy a Dodge Viper then drive it to the grocery store and back. Same folks shoot .454 Casull's at 85 pound deer.

I don't have anything against owning the car you want to drive, or shooting the cartridge that you want to hunt with, but for me, the 10mm, 41 magnum, .44 special, .45 acp and .45 Colt have all the power I need for the killing I would do with a pistol or revolver.

it's strange that as you get older, sometimes people get smarter. I have a running argument with a friend that thinks if it doesn't say magnum, it isn't anything. My comment being that a .45colt does it with less recoil, less flash, more pleasant shooting than many others. I have a 280 grain cast bullet both in solid, and hollowpoint, loaded to a little over 1000fps. It is just flat destructive when it hits something. I have measured on the hollow point almost an inch of expansion in the bullet after hitting something. I have decided to load it DOWN next time i do a run of them, to around 900fps. That extra velocity isn't needed.
I could say, we keep reinventing the wheel, which is good for gun sales. The other side of it is the .45colt has worked for how many years? And what is the 1911 .45acp other than a different delivery system for the .45colt?

I still find it interesting that when we talk self defense against two legged predators, most people want expanding bullets, and we were earlier in the week singing the praises of the 1400 fps load out of the .357 mag. Or the old original 10mm Norma loads, 180's at 1400+. The people who have extensively studied self defense shootings bad mouth non-expanding bullets.

But then hunting critters comes up, and lots of folks then want big, non-expanding bullets at relatively slow velocity. Granted, we aren't talking round nose bullets. Of course a big bullet, subsonic load is also a lot easier to plink with than a full house load, and may get the job done - certainly on a black bear.

My take is for deer-sized game, and mountain lions, I'll go expanding bullets, and drive them as fast as I safely can from the revolver or pistol, whether I choose to scope it or not. My .480 SRH easily accepts a scope. I probably will try it someday on deer or hogs, probably with either a 275 Barnes, or Speer Gold Dot.

Bigger animals - especially ones where you want to break big bones - yes a heavy hard cast. As long as the bullet does not expand, the faster you drive it, the deeper it drives, and the more damage from secondary bone fragments. My heavy bullet load for the .480 is a 355 BFN, driven at 1350 fps.

My compliments to Kevin on his marksmanship on the bull, with his friend's safety on the line, but with a well-placed head shot a 9mm FMJ may have had the same result. Obviously, we don't always get headshots in the field, and want something that works in hunting situations.

I HIGHLY doubt that, seeing the momentum and frontal area is significantly different. I will agree that every example of a bullet hit on an animal is a sample of one, but in no way could that 9MM FMJ be depended on to do the same work as that .45 Colt did, even on its best of hits.

In test done by Randy Garrett,penetration increases stopped at 1250-1300 fps.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth

Jayco

I'd be fine with my 357 loaded with BB 180 hard cast for any bear or hog east of the Mississippi.

Buffalo Bore makes some good stuff in different calibers.There 45 acp ammo with a 230 grain flat point is a real penetrator if penetration with a .45 caliber weapon is your huckleberry.34" in wet newsprint more than doubling the 230 grain FMJ ..



Jayco.

Nothing at wrong with the good old Colt.
The reason for larger is velocity at range, not under 50 yards. That was what the .454 and .460 was made for so you have long range capabilities.
Even a heavy bullet in the .44 is good for 100+ yards.
Seems 1300 to 1350 fps is where I run all of my hunting boolits (cast) I use a little heavy but not that much. The reason is I shoot target and hunt at longer ranges then a slow .45 is good for. I take the .45 to 1160 fps with a 335 gr LBT boolit and it has dropped deer to 100 yards.
Velocity only means range. Heavy boolits hold velocity better. They penetrate better.
For more I go larger in caliber but velocity is still in the 1350 fps range.
For closer ranges it is hard to beat a Colt at 800 fps or a little more. To have it good at 100 yards, start a little faster.
Who needs faster? I do. I shoot steel to 500 meters with revolvers but I still limit hunting to 100 yards yet the heavy boolit at around 1350 is still good to very long ranges.
My 45-70 BFR revolver goes 1630 fps but it still drops around 26 FEET at 500. By shooting the same boolit at 1800 or so from a .454 would only lower trajectory a small amount.
Even Elmer wanted faster for the .44 and .45 because he shot FAR, not because he needed it for close ranges.
Even for what I do, I have found no need for the .454, .460 or .500 S&W.

My carry loads for my 1911 is the same as my bowling pin loads. 125 gr hard cast in front of 8 gr of AA5. Where I live I may encounter Boerboels, bears, cougar, or bad guys. I feel this load will do all I need.

Interesting comments Kevin. Elmer Keith related lots of stories where the old .45 Colt saved the day with out of control horses, and angry cows in his book, Sixguns by Keith. The only thing he didn't like was the old round nose bullets not making much of a wound channel. Penetration it had lots of, but not any decent wound channel.
BTW, my Loadbook shows 17.7 grs. of IMR 4227 under a 250 gr. remington lead bullet at 890 fps. and 14,000 CUP. Hornady lists their 255 gr. lead bullet at 900 fps. with 7.9 grs. of Hodgdon's Univeral Clays and Hodgdon lists sligtly more speed with HS-6. All safe for the Colts, and other similar guns. E

Ya sure?

I load nothing over 1000-1100 fps, from the 32 H&R to the 500L. The larger bores start getting less fun to shoot above that velocity and I too believe there is nothing to be gained regardless of the critter most might encounter assuming the proper round is selected to begin with.

Nope. Blasted typing finger did me in again. Make that 235 gr truncated cone cast from 93% lead and 7% tin. If I remember right is is somewhere around 900 fps.

I agree with most evrything said here. Its been proven time and again that you dont need masive velocity to kill an animal. Why is that? Why does penetration slow the faster you push? Is it just plain bullet construction? Rifles drive through animals with velocities much faster. It seems to work there. Just curious.

If a bullet is designed to expand, then generally the more it does expand the less it will penetrate, and bullets tend to expand less at lower velocities. For hard cast or full metal jacket bullets that are designed to retain their shape on impact, then that relationship doesn't apply.

A few years ago someone did a bullet test that shows this. Look at the chart below. Soaked phone books were used to test all kinds of bullets. The top row shows what happened to each bullet at 3300 fps - penetration, weight retained, expanded diameter. Then every row down was done at a velocity of 100 fps less.



There's a thermodynamic term that can be used explain this very well, but it's far too controversial to mention here.

Yep, if you want to make 1/2" holes in most things then the 45lc works. No matter what the dreamers say, LBT WFN or otherwise, you get a 1/2" diameter hole with a 45cal hardcast. But you can get a bigger hole if you go to a 300gr XTP and run it faster - and that is why those other cartridges exist.

I'm not knocking a 1/2" diameter hole - we're pretty happy if our 30cal fodder expands 1.5 diameters, and lots of critters are taken with 30cal cartridges.

I carry a .44 Special or 10mm in bear country. I've never felt too concerned.

Then again, I've never shot a man eating bear either.


Travis

Good post!

I used to be a devout disciple of the Church of the LBT Hard Cast Bullet. I've backslid some since then, though!

As I've read more of the literature out there by people with lots of knowledge about cast bullets I've come to see Veral Smith's view as a bit more narrow than I like. Sure, I still cast, load and hunt with LBT and LBT-style bullets, but I also use SWC bullets, and I'm starting to get some experience with cast HP bullets. For one thing, I don't use "hard cast" bullets much at all any more. I haven't hunted with bullets harder than BHN 14 or so for years, and most of my hunting bullets are closer to a BHN of 10-11.

I used to hunt with XTP bullets, but I've found that the velocity range over which most XTP bullets will expand reliably is too narrow for my liking. And XTP hollowpoints cost a lot more than my own cast hollowpoint bullets. I can get reliable expansion and penetration and very credible lethality with a 45 caliber cast HP driven at 900-1050 fps muzzle velocity, but I need to drive an XTP 200-300 fps faster to get it to do the same job.

More velocity, more recoil, more expense... who needs that? So I'll just keep moseyin' on down the cast bullet trail and see where it leads me.

900 fps for the .45 Colt is more or less (well, a tad more) than book value for those handguns LIKE the Colt etc.. I can't speak for the Vaquero as to what it can handle, but the Super Blackhawk in .45 Colt can be loaded much, much higher and there's publications showing 1500 fps using 250 gr. bullets.

If you're goin' after deer or similar - rather thin-skinned game I'm sure the lower power ratings will do nicely. However, IF the game actually is a rather large bear, I'd prefer the stronger load - if for no other reason than to be more apt to penetrate further, expand reliably and/or take care of heavy bone structure..

For Cowboy action shooting - them 850 fps loads or so is downright comfy.. Still, it's a helluva lotta fun to shoot the heavier loads out of a proper handgun..

I finally found out what LBT stands for, Lead Bullet Technology and you can only get them from one company or so they say.

BTW: I agree with the 900 to 1,000 feet per second for hand gun hunting for the true hand gun hunter which to me means about 50 yards or so. If I's hunting over 100 years I'm using a rifle.

Just my opinion and everybody's mileage may and probably does vary.

well Derby...after 100 years the eyesight starts to go so...rifle's probably better.

Our good freind here JJ Hack, who has shot something on the order of 900 bears as he was the bear control officer for a large timber company for many years and was ahunting guide in Alaska during times when he was not PH'ing in South Africa and Zimbabwe says that in his experience a plain old vanilla 240gr HP in a 44 MAgnum is much more effective on even big black bears.

Back to Kevins original post, I am with you 100% Kevin. My bear country load for my old 329PD's was 255gr SWC's at an even 1,000 fps. I also never felt undergunned and had a bear shown himself at 25 yards during bear seasone while I had that gun on me I was anxious to try it out. I have no doubts as to the outcome of such an encounter i.e. bad day to be a bear. These days I am quite comfortable with my 10mm in all scenarious, although my handloads are close to the original Norma level loads. I am hoping to have the opportunity to try THAT one on a bear, too.

Truth be told, very few of us can shoot well with the really heavy 45LC loadings. I for one cannot and do not have the time or diesire to get good with them. Not fun in my mind. 416 Rigby 300 RUM or 340 Tyrannosaur rifle? You bet! Mega handguns, no thank you.

Tell Moses about the mountain!

Back in the day the .44 mag WAS the power house and there wasn't a whole lot hand gun scopes around and fifty yard hunting was the norm. Heck, I remember where I came from, hand gunners using S&W target revolvers in .38 Special for white tail deer and black bear and they never thought they were under gun. I remember when the .38 Super was the most power round you could have in a 1911.

With that background if I can't kill it with a .44 mag using normal loads screw it I'm getting a rifle and if that doesn't cut it I'm getting an RPG. Screw those ass kicking revolvers! You young pups can keep them.

I like to call them "BFN's" for Big Flat Nose And lots of people make BFN's

I've shot some of the Buffalo Bore .454's - 300gr - out of a SRH, over my chrono. They ran 1620 fps and smacked the hell out of your hand. I was definitely looking for a glove after one cylinder, even in that fairly heavy revolver. Dick Casull's original loads were of similar power, and despite their beautiful workmanship, lots of folks were soon looking to trade off their M83's.

A buddy of mine casts a 230gr LBT hard cast bullet with a big flat meplat. We load it to 1050fps for our 45acp hog load. It has a pretty stiff recoil, about like the Buffalo Boar load. I've taken several big feral hogs, and had to put down a sick cow with it. I wouldn't be afraid to take any Black Bear with it. It will penatrate at least 20" on a feral hog going 350 lbs or more. We also load the 230 gr Speer Gold Dot Bullets to the same velocity. They expand better than the Hornady 230gr XTP's and Penatrate about 18" on a big hog.

Both loads are extremely accurate in my 1911's & my new Ruger Flattop .45colt. / 45acp Convertable. Also a 300gr LBT WFN at 1150 FPS shoots great in my 45lc USPF built by Doug Turnbull & my Ruger Flattop.

I still have a 325gr LBT WLN hard cast bullet I load to 1350fps, but I use it Only in my 4" Ruger Redhawk or my Bowen Custom Bisley Blackhawk in 45 colt. It has the unfluted cylinder. I Would NOT use this load in my Flatop, Vaqueros, or any SAA!!!

That being said, the older I get, the more I prefer the 230 to 250 grain bullets going about 1000fps in my 45 LC single action revolvers. Much more pleasant to shoot, & will kill just about any critter I might encounter.
I also still pack my Glock 20-10mm with 15 rounds of 200gr Hornady XTP's going 1350 fps while bow hunting in Colorado & New Mexico. And I've never felt under gunned while in Black Bear country.... If I was in Alaska, I'd break out the old Redhawk & the heavy loads

Bullet shape and impact velocity does effect the dia of the wound, and a flatfaced hardcast bullet will create a larger dia wound than a rn bullet. The wound dia from a 45 cal truncated cone wadcutter i.e. wfn or lfn is going to be 1" and change, not 1/2"

But back to the op, I agree that as I age I enjoy shooting milder recoil rounds more than heavier recoiling rounds. The only issue I have at the moment is I don't currently have a mild recoiling revolver that shoots as accurately as my 480 srh, but I plan to rectify that with a K38.

No Doubt! A hard cast bullet with a big wide meplat Definately will creat a bigger entrance / exit wound, AND a big wound channel.

I've poked lots of 1" holes in feral hogs with a LBT cast bullet. Round nose bullets are a poor choice for any hunting handgun or, for that matter, any defense handgun. To me, round nosed or ball ammo is just for plinking.

It really sucks that NATO has limited our soldiers to a sissy ass 9mm with hardball ammo. We ought to give them a Glock in 357sig with HP bullets.
Or give them back a good ole 1911's with HP bullets. I would bet my last dollar that some of our Seals, Rangers, & Spec-op soldiers are carrying HP ammo.....

SCREW NATO rules of caliber / bullet type for combat use!!!

I have taken a lot of game with LBT bullets since 1986 and I can assure you that one gets more than a 1/2" diameter wound in 45 caliber. Animals don't go anywhere but dowen if hit properly has been my experience. I don't hesitate to use them in my self defense weapons as well

What I carry on a walk in the wilds varies from a Glock 17 loaded with 147s, to a Marlin 45-70 loaded with 405s. In between are 40/180, 44/240, 44/310, or 45/230.

Bottom line.....just have a gun.

BS. 1/2" is all you get. You've never measured the actual hole - you glance at it and think "that's a big mess!", but it is still just a 1/2" hole.

If you shoot a chuck roast, you'll get a 1/2" hole. You shoot something living and you think the hole is bigger because of the peripheral bleeding.

A chuck roast is already dead. Critters die by bleeding, and that peripheral bleeding is very important to getting a crtter to bleed out quickly. A 1" dia wound has 4 times the area of a 1/2" dia wound.

If I feel I need more 'power' than I have with a .45 Colt 250 grain hard cast LSWC at 900fps, then I'll reach for a rifle.

This is from a 45 caliber hard cast flat point





Have you only taken the "chuck roast"? Perhaps some actual game would enlighten you

Sorry, dude, you're so freakin' wrong it's... I won't say it. You're wrong.

I've got pix of exit wounds from a pair of deer shot with 300 gr WFN bullets out of a 45 Colt at ~1250 fps impact velocity that exited the deer's chest leaving a 3" exit hole. Can't post the pix because my hard drive crashed a month ago and I lost all my digital jpg files. I'll have to re-scan the paper photos.

JWP's picture, above, looks much like the gutpiles I pulled out of those deer. Those bullets were cast from soft alloy, BHN about 11, not what most people consider "hard cast" nowadays, but still.

Have you actually tested your theory on live animals? I get the feeling you haven't actually used LBT-anything on game.

Ever shot a bottle full of water? That's what heart is like. Like I said, shoot a round through a dead animal and then necropsy the wound path - 1/2" hole.

Uh, I don't think so.

He's never gonna get it... Maybe we're gonna all have to start doing more water jug huntin'
I've killed several feral hogs and a deer with my 45acp LBT bullet load. It's a 230gr WFN hard cast bullet going 1050 fps. On the deer, no heart left & a 3" exit wound.

On a couple of hogs, it broke both shoulders with about a 4" exit hole.
One Boar I shot with that same load, while he was running at me at 25 yards after I stuck a arrow all the way though him. The 45 bullet went through both front & back of the skull, though his heart & 1 lung, & ended up back in his intestines. He had a 2" wound channel all the way to where the bullet stopped. Damn lucky shot, IMO. I should have taken photos

Well that's a pointless post if there ever was one.


Travis

Dead animal tissue does not r-eact the same when shot as does live tissue with flowing blood. Experienced people know this FACT

Keep posting you are good for a laugh

I'll take that as a firm "no."

So, does that mean you are actually going to get out there and test your theories? And don't shoot dead animals, shoot 'em when they are alive.

Here is a pic of a cast wound channel of a live animal at the shot.Clearly this 45 opened up the channel to larger than a half inch. This result was not a accident but the norm. It's a 300gr wfn at a moderate 1150fps.

Maybe he meant a metric half-inch?


Travis

Morning Whitworth,

I was going to go to Alaska and see if I could kill a brown bear with a handgun. But instead I'm just gonna shoot some milk jugs and save $20K.

Glad I read this thread.


Travis

Good morning to you! Yeah, maybe we should start an outfitting business -- dangerous milk jug hunts.......good grief, where do folks come up with this stuff? Obviously not from observation.

I was gonna run out to the range and kill a "cape buffalo" with my Delta, but it is gone to the smith.

Oh well, maybe next week.


Travis

Go ahead on Travis, I'm gonna rope and saddle up on a Rhino to kill my next Cape Buffler LOL

And GFY and have a wonderful day too.

Gunner

Thanks friend!



Travis

My pleasure, good neighbor.

Gunner

Will these be open range milk jugs? I won't hunt high fenced milk jogs.

[bleep]' snob.



Travis

I'm no expert on handgun anything, but even with the lowly 45 ACP and 230 gr flat point FMJ's at 950 fps, will put a lot larger than 1/2" hole through dead, sick and dying cattle that I have shot.

Studying the bullet wounds always bears this out, and when bone is hit, it grows even more, and the little 45 ACP with the above mentioned load will way overpenetrate more than most folks may think.

Gunner

I am torn, I always believed more speed is more... till you stop hitting the target.

My go to Blackhawk load is Standard SAAMI� 250g HC bullet at 1000+/- ft/sec

I have never shot anything but paper but I always thought it would do.

BUT

My M92 round is a 250g Speer Deepcurl at 1100 ft/sec�
Not clocked but I think cause of the bbl length it will be closer to 1200 ft/sec


So all that said if I need more than my M92 I will go to my 450M
400g bullet at 1900Ft/sec

Snake

You guys are killen me!!!

I used to feel the same way Snake, but I've found that something moving three football fields per sec running into something moving zero football fields per sec. just gets it's stuffing permanently blown outta the bullets way.

I still hunt and shoot the 454C with a 335 gr LBT at 1585 fps, and a silly lookin 500 S&W with it's 440 gr LBT at an easy 1385 fps, but the 45 ACP and especially my old Colt 45 SAA with the 270 Thunderheads @900 really lays a meat and bone displacing pop on critters up close.

Gunner

Yeah, this. Penetration and shot placement are the vast majority of what determines lethality. If 5.7 or 4.6 were cheapest, I'd get those instead of 9mm.

JOG

This interesting. I've looked into hog hunting in case we get wild hogs in Montana. There are a number of hog hunting videos on you tube. The rounds that seem to kill the hogs real dead real fast are .45 auto, .40 S&W, 10MM and this on really big hogs. But the rounds that don't seem to have much effect on the hogs even the really big ones is the .454C and rounds of that nature. I'm told there is a whole of reasons but as I have no experience I won't say. I'm talking handguns only not rifles.

That might slow 'em down ... a little.

DD, I'm bettin shot placement is the real issue here.

Gunner

Yup that could be the case. Seeing as how you shoot a .454C you ought to you tube up hog hunting a there is one on there that really is something to see. The guy hits this 700 pound hog with six rounds of .454C little effect so he loads up again and hits the hog with six more before the hog goes down.

Heck, maybe I'll try and find it.

Found it!!!!

Check this out gunner500:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cViXU8eXU94

Damn, havent seen the video, but that dude was not hitting that hog in the vitals.
I saw a video of a hog properly hit with a 454 Casull on last springs 24 hr Hog Hunt.
The bullet through the shoulders immediately put the hog down for the count and a blood geyser sprung up to a height of two feet, I mean it was gushing steady

PAMac's got the video.

Gunner

Well that sucked, that dude needs severe practice with a handgun, I put mangy coyotes and feral dogs down with more dignity.

Gunner

A .505 Gibbs in the wrong place won't kill any faster than a .30-06 in the vitals. That domestic pig was poorly shot.

Haven hunted a number of black bears, I would heartily agree with JJ on that. My preference is for a heavy duty JHP for black bears. As for griz, I�m not the man to ask.

Are you retarded?


Travis

That guy needs to be beaten over the head with his Raging Bull.


Travis

No chit, and if that was a domestic animal as Whitworth stated, he needs that RB booted up his ass.

Gunner

That did not seem to be 750lbs

I have never gotten that close to one in daylight... unless they charge.

That said,

Yes "That guy needs to be beaten over the head with his Raging Bull."

Snake

I think recoil has a lot to do with it.

I know that in a rifle the recoil of a 30-06 is all I can handle. In a handgun a .44 mag shooting 240 grain soft points at 1000 to 1200 FPS is all I can handle. I never hunted anything that required more horse power. I figured if that can't do it it doesn't need to die.

My favorite all around handgun is the 1911 in .45 auto. With +p loads it will take a whole assortment of big game animals.

Yeah, he was one stealthy sumbitch wasn't he?


Travis

You don't need to be Clark Kent to shoot the Casull. . That was a video of a moron.


Travis

I'd be suprised if my shooting buddy tips the scales at much over 130, and he can easily handle the 454, 475 and 500. I developed a flinch shooting 300's out of a 44 mag, and over a decade later I'm still fighting.

The odd thing is rifle recoil doesn't bother me, yet my buddy can barely stand a .308.

Recoil is definitely in the eye of the beholder.

Two questions Doc. Did those bullets hit anything like bone on their way through ? Did they expand ? You stated earlier than your cast bullets are on the soft side by today's standards.
I'm still looking for the "one inch plus hole" in JWP's picture.
Anybody want to guess as to why JJHack had such radically different results between expanding bullets and the hard cast stuff he used on black bears ? E

There's probably a reason that a wadcutter makes a good defensive bullet in a 38 snub.

I'm no terminal ballistics expert, but a big flat fronted bullet will have to displace tissue in an almost perpendicular sidespray from the bullet, at nearly the same velocity the bullet is traveling.

That high velocity displacement of tissue, bone, blood, etc, at an exteme angle, has to cause some serious trauma to soft tissue, separate from the damage inflicted by the bullet proper.

Eremicus, on the first question: yes, these deer were shot in the chest and ribs were hit on the way in. Bullets were not recovered, as you might gather from my stating that the exit wounds were 3+ inches in diameter. The bullets used in that case were/are my more or less standard range lead WFN bullets, which have a BHN of about 8-9. Shot into wet newsprint or gelatin, they do tend to sprawl or slump a bit.

I dunno anything about jjhack's "results". In my humble experience, memory is a fickle servant unless I look at the written records I made at the time and do some actual statistical analysis of the findings. It takes some time.

For the same reasons we, and countless others shoot our beef or pork behind the ear with a 22.

The 22 is dead nuts lethal in such fashion (IMO "radically" better than a 9mm, 44 or 45 hollow point through the lungs at the same range on hogs), but we never demand it to go beyond its limitations or put it in a worse case scenario.

He wasn't a member of the first church of holy hardcast - mainly. Some folks think they need to be able to drill a 1/2" hole from nose to prostate on a Cape Buffalo - hardcast is the solution. But JJHack demonstrated that you can kill black bear faster with a bigger hole that doesn't penetrate as far. Of course this riles the high priests of the church.






1/2" hole - nothing more.

What calibers did JJ use? For the calibers he used that was his results. Unless he used all calibers a blanket statement that jacketed bullets showed better results is limited. What hardness and profile was his hardcast? Velocity?Distances? There are way to many variables. More facts are needed. JJ has a lot of experience I just think like many others he is taken out of context.

The entire top of the heart is missing. That should have been obvious.

Based on your vast testing? Or conjecture? Why do you avoid answering?

My experience with cast bullets on game are Keith style bullets. I�ve never hunted truly LARGE game with a handgun. The biggest thing I�ve hunted with a handgun is a black bear. With my limited experience, my observations were spot on the same as JJ Hacks. With a .357 or a .44 mag using a Keith style bullet, the bear was killed, but there was much less noticeable impact, and it was clear the bear had some fight in him after being hit. A Keith 429421 .44 bullet weighs about 261 grains when I cast it with wheel weights. When pushed at 1200 fps out of my .44 my observation was that there was no difference between that Keith .44 than a stout 158 grain JHP out of an 8� .357 magnum (again, my personal observation). When I switched to a 240 grain JHP (Remington to be exact, but I�ve used Winchester & Federal), the difference in immediate effect was very telling. Before the hit, the bear is in a flight or fight stance and his fur is standing on end. Once hit, the fight option is sucked right out of the bear and you can see the fur become flaccid as the bear loses muscle tone (observed opinion, not medical fact).

Now the LBT bullets became common after my bear hunting days so I�ve never had the chance to give them a try. I�ve seen wounds that were impressive, so I�m sure they do a great job. Here�s the thing�with the performance I�ve had with JHP�s on medium sized game, I�m not left wanting in any way. Were I hunting larger game, perhaps I would re-consider.

When we talk about LBT bullets are we talking about the LBT bullets cast in Lead Bullet Technology molds or generic LBT bullets?

On the risk of repeating myslef and re writing things that Jim Hackewicz has posted here and in print in various outdoor magazines over the years....

Jim Hackewicz had, as his day to day job, the task of remving - if it were possible - every single living bear form an immense tract of tree farms in the extreme NW corner of our fine state. In addition, he guided many bear hunts in Alaska. On this tree farm he was not limited by time, seasons or rules and could shoot bears that were ni a trap, which is a wonderful and safe way to find out what works in regards to armament. On top of this, he was priveliged to guide many ploice officers and Sherrifs deputies who were just SURE that thier new department issued wondergun with the new ammo the department was so high on would slam any bear on his keister with nary a wiggle. Such was very much not the case but the hunts were conducted in a very controlled setting with Jim backing up these LEO hunters heavy rifle in hand.

Jims personal number of bears killed is in the realm of 430 +/- a few. Adding in the numbers of bears he observed being shot under his close guidance and scrutiny and the nuber tops 900 bears. I know Jim very well and hunt with him often. This is NOT an inflated number by any stretch. I have seen the records and the photos.

Now, ya'll can lean upon whatever 'expert opinion' you want to. It is your money and your hunt. As for me, I choose to learn from Jim. In his vast experience, the only service auto round that is a reliable and quick bear killer is the 10mm Auto. The 'SUPER' 45's were and are not common service rounds so his experience with those is none and they are probably just great as they replicate the power of known revolver rounds that work wonderfully. His experiments with live bears over bait or in traps show the 9mm, 40 S&W and plain vanilla 45 Auto to be wanting as bear stoppers. His vast experience, including many, any bullet types including LBT and other semi and full wadcutter type bullets indicate to him that a medium heavy (210 in 41 mag and 240gr in 44 Mag) full power HP in 41 or 44 MAgnum to be pretty good bear kilers. Other rounds perhaps capable, but not as good.

As I type this and we all strain over the ballistic gack, Jim and our Good mutual freind Pastor Owen Frost are out this very morning checking bear stand sites for bear sign. On thier hips are 44 MAgnum revolvers stuffed with 240gr HP's. Learn from this immense amount of real hard data and experience if you choose to, or not. ME? I have changed my ways and gave away all of my CBT 44 bullets to a freind and my Cimmaron Arms Single action 43/4 inch 44 Mag (just stole it from a pawn shop for UNDER $300.00! ) is stocked with 240gr Gold Dots.

Rock on and good hunting!

I was with you until you said "capable but not as good". The 45 colt,454,475,& the 500s are more than capable and in some instances better. His experience as you stated is limited to the medium to smaller bores. I still say the test and results are limited to what was used and not what's available.

What must be stressed when discussing cast or hardcast bullets is what bullet design is being used. There are a tremendous number of cast bullet designs, round nose, truncated cone, semi wadcutters, full wadcutters, ogival wadcutters (aka LBT WFN and LFN's) etc. A meplat, and it's dia has a huge impact on what type of wound channel a bullet creates.

There is also a point, I'm not sure exactly where but the 357 seems to be right on the cusp where you really don't have a large enough meplat to create a big enough wound for quickly dispatching an animal. If you have a 40 or 44 with a small meplat, suddenly you find yourself in the 357 territory and performance on game is iffy.

Re read my post. I was reffering to the bullet types and not the calibers. Certainly the big 45's and 50's are more capable than any 44 caliber gun and no one was arguing that point. The issue under discussion was WFN and other hard cast bullets VS a Hollow point on BLACK BEARS in Magnum type high velocity guns. Slow the bullets down to original 45LC or 44 Special velocites and the game changes, with a hardcast flat nose most likely winning out due to now needing all of the penetration one can get and no extra energy to spare on a mushrooming bullet. Throw a big brownie into the mix and the game and preffered bullet changes as well, with penetration now being the premium and yardstick.

Back to the original topic, many hunters and handgun users as well as Dangerous game rifle hunters feel they need more power than they really do. Once we get past the heavy 45LC/454 Casull level loads in handguns and a 458 Lott or properly handloaded 458 Win it is all just extra unnecesary noise and bluster IMO. And cartridges of quite a bit less power do the jobs at hand quite nicely AKA a good 44 Magnum in the handgun realm for most big game, say from black Bear on down and the 9.3's, 375 and 416's being more than enough even on dangerous BIG game animals including elephant.

On the other hand, it is all about FUN. And fun is defined by each and for some of us the noise and recoil and bluster add to the hunting experience and the fun factor. I, for example, load up my 416 Rigby to near 416 WBY ballistics and love it, but have no practical reason to do so as plain old 416 Rigby's have been squishing the heck out of elephants for about 100 years now. In the handguns world, my recoil tolerance ends much lower on the food chain. Probably due mosltly to far less expereince and time with handguns as I am primarily a (happy) rifle nut.

There is no such thing as generic LBT. If they come out of LBT molds, then they are LBT. If not, then you can't really call them LBTs

I get what your saying there safariman but there are still a lot of variables. As you know all bullets whether jacketed or cast are not created equal.
From what JJ said in a post a year or so ago they shot for vitals looking for reaction. Not everyone chooses that set of perameters. I,myself am a CNS shot type of person.I would be interested to know what all calibers were used,velocities of the different variety of loads used,and hardness of the cast loads and the average distances of those shots.
I have my opinion but it would be interesting to compare his results with my observations. Is there some where a statistic sheet of loads used?
I have seen several and taken several myself,almost exclusively at close distances with 38,357,41,44,440,45acp and colt,and a few bigger calibers in handguns,multitudes of rifle calibers and a few shotguns. Just would like to compare notes.

That would be a fun conversation and comparison to have. We have to figure out a way to get all of us together for a yakking and gakking session. I vote for this meeting to take place in South Africa in 2013 or, second choice Alaska you in?

It would be clearer if we used the term ogival wadcutter and specified the meplat dia as a perentage of bullet dia.

While Veral did a trmendous job enlightening us as to what is possible with cast bullets, his molds are anything but the nee plus ultra. I sold my last LBT mold a couple weeks back and doubt I'll ever get another. Ogival wadcutters are my favorite cast bullet design for revolvers, but there are lots of options for mold makers besides LBT.

Thanks. I was out to LBT's web site and they were saying that many try to copy the LBT but the only true LBT had to come out of their molds. I just wanted to make sure I was on the same page.

Yup. go back far enough to remember when the .44 mag with a 240 grain soft point bullet was THE round and THE bullet for big game. In a pistol there was nothing else. I guess I'm just old because I figure if I can't kill it with .44 mag using a .240 grain soft point I'm getting a rifle.

Derby Dude,

That is kinda where I am as well. If it cannot be done with my 10mm or 44 RemMag, I am reaching for a long gun. Part of that is that I just don't like shooting anything more powerful than those two in a handgun. To me, handguns cease being handguns when they weigh as much as a Winchester Model 92 or some other carbine that would be far more effective than any handgun including the 500 Smith or when they require two hands or worse yet a rest to be fired accurately, comfortably or effectively.

At a certain power level it�s not about �can I kill it�, but rather can I stop it before it kills me. For some the solution is a rifle, but given the right handgun/cartridge/bullet combination, the handgun absolutely can do the job of a large rifle provided the shooter is up to the task.

My .500 Maximum weighs as much (or as little) as my Bisley Hunter in .44 Magnum. I don't like heavy revolvers as it defeats the purpose for me. Define "far more effective" please, as aside from the range limitations of the revolver (not terminal ineffectiveness at range but ability to hit with it at distance), I don't find any of my big-bore revolvers, loaded correctly, to be giving up much of anything to many big-game rifle cartridges from a terminal standpoint.

Try a 480 ruger. 400gr @ 1200 fps is a big enough jump over the 44 mag to make you notice the difference on game, but the recoil isn't so stout as to be unshootable. If you can handle a 44, you can handle a 480.

For me, going past the 480 results in a gun that either has too much recoil, weighs too much, or needs a muzzle break to be shootable which are all comprises I'm not willing to make.

Far morre effective = in part, the ability to HIT what one is aiming at. A number of shooting tests have been done and nearly everybody shoots immensely better with a carbine than with a handgun for many good reasons. Also, velocities obtanable and the terminal ballistics that go with it. going from a revolver barrel to the 20 inch barrel of a carbine makes the bullets go MUCH faster. I had a Rossi/Puma in 454 Casull for a while and even took it to Africa once. Its velocities with 300 grain bullets were identical to those obtained with 45/70 trapdoor level loads in that bullet weight. Going up to 330 and heavier bullets and it was even more impressive. Wildebeast, Impala and guinea fowl did not like that little carbine This was from the days that I would take as many as five guns with me to Zimbabwe and stay a while. shooting animals for Leopard, Hyena and Lion bait gave me opportunitys to field test lots of stuff and man was it ever FUN!

Thanks.

Just thank your lucky stars you ain't a free range milk jug!

That was ugly! Don't know if he was missing that hog or if they were just not where they needed to be but that was unly!

Having killed a lot of game with a hangun over the years< I definately would not choose a JHP over a wide meplat hardcast. Yes I have used both

A 335 grain 45 caliber WLFN at 1300 FPS will shoot completely through and exit 1,000 pound Bison. I have seen them dropped at the shot and that was with the Bison running before the shot.

Chit JWP475, I'm runnin the same bullet with excellent accuracy out of my FA 454C at 1585 fps, ya think I need to back her down a bit?
Mainly use that revolver for packin in bear country out west while bow and muzzle loadin for Elk.

Gunner

You will give up a bit of penetration at that speed with a hardcast, but you will still have enough providing the bullets is not to hard and shatters on heavy bone. I personally do not like to run a hard cast bullet more than 1400 FPS. Bullet hardnes is not accounted for by many and this is a mistake in my experience.

Just like some one claiming that a JHP bullet is the best. Well which one are they talking about. Sierra JHP bullets are made with a 1 1/2 oercent antimony and a heavy jacket they are made to penetrate, not expand. A hollow point that does not expand is not the same as a wide meplat flat point. Those that have shot a lot of game know this. I like my hard cast bulllets to cure out 20 to 24 BNH. This is hard enough to maintain shape well enough with out being too hard at 1400 FPS give or take a bit. 12BNH is fine if velocity does not exceed 1200 FPS

Some JHP and JFP are too soft for big game and do not penetrate well. I would not want one of these bullet for big bear protection






I am not a fan of such eractic performance as this

Thousands of head of big game, and 900 bears alone?

I have shot what most would call lots of big game as well, all over the planet, but I know when my experience has been bettered.

That said, we all make our choices based upon our preferences and personal experience and obviously the Wide Flat HC's work great for you and many others. Whatever works and you like, rock on and go kill some stuff with a big ol grin all the while!

I was merely reporting on the experience of another - who is a close personal freind - whose experience is vast compared to about anyone else here.

Heck there are even folks who stick with Nosler Partitions even though the Barnes TTSX is a vastly supreior design in every way <G> Just no accounting for sense, sometimes

Donning Nomex fire suit..... NOW

That'll work, I'll back em down to 1400 fps on next reload in the FA revolver, and the 440 gr WFNGC's out of the 500 S&W at 1385 will be left alone.

These are both "Cast Performance" bullets.

Gunner

I use TSX bullets but I am not a fan of most JHP bullets for big game.

I dropped the bear on the right spread eagle style with a LBT LFN hard cast from a 475 at 1350 FPS. A raking body shot did the job

Those are excellent bullets

Thanks JWP .

Gunner

JWP, Excellent Bear there! What part of AK, and which outfitter?

Looks like a great hunt overall.

Amen! What He Said! I personally prefer the WFN's, But... The LFN's tend to be more accurate in my guns.

No outfitter, I was dropped off by a flying service and picked up latter. The location was out from Kotzebue, AK

458 Lott is spot on. People read his post and digest it. A proper hard cast with a proper meplat does not take a back seat to any jacketed bullet in the wound diameter department and out penetrates them six ways to sunday

anyone use a flat nosed lead bullet in a 45ACP? Just curious I met a guy who was shooting what looked like a semi wad cutter from his Ruger P345 it seemed to have no problems with them. Wondered if they would feed in my Kimber.

I shoot semi wadcutters out of my 45acp. The two molds I have are the lee 200gr swc (H&G 68 clone), and a Hensley and Gibbs #78, which is a 220 gr swc. A properly designed swc will feed great, the H&G #68 200g is the gold standard, enough that almost everyone has copied it. I'm still fiddling with the #78, it seems to be more critical on seating depth, too far out it won't chamber, too deep it hangs up.

I'd like to try a 240-250gr lfn in the 45 acp, but the design will need to be spot on for feeding.

Years ago, I was shooting 255/260 grain Keith-style SWCs out of a 1911. About 750 fps with a forgotten charge of Unique.

Accurate, and they fed fine, but I quickly lost interest and went back to 200 grain SWC.

says the king of the inane and homo erotic one liners.

If you want to see pointless posts, check your own.

I use a 230gr WFN LBT bullet going 1050fps in all my 45acp 1911's, including my Kimber Super Carry Pro Commander Lightweight 1911. No feed problems whatsoever, & actually very accurate. 5-shot 1.5" group off a sandbag @ 25yds I've killed several large feral hogs & one doe with it. Huge wound channel & they go down like a ton of bricks. Also used it to put down one very sick cow on our ranch. Instant death.

1/2 inch

This has always been the silly platitude on which this entire argument rides.
I'll go back to my silly example: Many more thousands of livestock have been done in by a 22LR (we always used shorts) behind the ear or centering the brain pan.
I'd imagine a bear in a trap or even in a tree wouldn't be any different, yet no one is proclaiming a 22 rimfire as the unbeatable bear "hunting" round. Yet, if situations warranted its limitations, it very well could be (like a trapped, treed or confined animal).

Anyone who has dispatched livestock hundreds of times can attest. Ones who have actually done the magnum handgun hollowpoint to the lungs on the same animals will declare the 22 "better"

My understanding is no one put a bait bucket 75 yards from a stand, no one made CNS hits a part of the "experience" and no one shot a northbound bear in the south end or vice versa.

I sure wish every animal I hunted allowed me to get as close as I wanted and I could wait until I got the shot I wanted and every limitation of the bullet I was using would never get tested.

Your observation or conjecture? I will bet the latter and not the former.

so has anyone tried the Belt Mountain punch bullets?

They are the best of the best

The "chuck roast" is all that he has shot, he has no clue

Oh I'm sure he has tons of experience on those really dangerous charging milk jugs

I reviewed my posts and it turns out you still like to blather about things you know nothing about.

Why don't you go ahead and tell me you use a handgun to "fight your way to a long arm" too.



Travis

Not to interrupt yer pizzin' match there, Flave, but to get back to the original concept of this thread....

John Linebaugh wrote about 10 years ago:

"I have personally taken about 10 antelope and 1 mule deer with a .45 Colt. My wife has taken around 6 antelope and 5 mule deer with her .45 Colt. She uses a 4 �� Seville and the handload is a 260 Keith cast at 900 fps. This load will shoot lengthwise of antelope and mule deer at 100 yards. In my estimation it kills as well as the .270, .30-06 class of rifles if the shots are placed properly... The load, 260 Keith at 900 fps. It�s plain, no bells or whistles, but it works every time."

I spent close to a dozen years working up, shooting, and hunting with heavy handloads in the 45 Colt and 44 Magnum. I read everything I could get my hands on by Linebaugh and other disciples of the heavy revolver, and really--and I mean really--pushed my Rugers to the limit. I printed out Linebaugh's articles from his website and read them and reread them. They're still in my load notes binder.

I still shoot those heavy loads on occasion, but my general hunting and shooting loads tend to be a lot lighter, in no small part because of this little gem I quoted above that Linebaugh tucked into his article on the 45 Colt's potential.

Sorry Doc.

And I have to agree that those weight/style bullets @ 900-1,100fps flat out wreck schit.


Travis

Worst transgression of all is shooting CANNED jugs of water. Water jugs raised in captivity to think that humans are safe and the source for food, shelter, water... then released into a small pen to be fired upon by wealthy so caled 'sportsmen' who did not work for thier trohy water jugs. DEspicable.

that's right, fair chase perforation only.

Gunner

WTF are you apologizin' for?!?!?

Pizzin' matches are about the only reason for gettin' on the innanet. Just wanted to post somethin' I read in my old load notes this morning. GFY, and go find some hot Latina chick with a anal tattoo this weekend.

But yes, 250-300 gr bullets @ 900-1100 fps wreck schitt on the receiving end. Same bullets at 1350-1500 fps wreck schitt on the sending end, in my experience, sooner or later.

In Texas, we only shoot free range beer cans. Some times when you shoot too many, you may start seeing rabid beer cans that attack, not to be confused with that gay ass light beer....

"Sorry Doc" =GFY. Now you know. For future reference...


Travis

pfft

Okay, thanks for the translation. I feel better now.

Sorry, Travis!

Why do we do this? That is my deer I shot with a hard cast WFN with my .475 BFR. That is my hand on the heart. Whitworth took the picture.
The exit hole was not much larger then the boolit and I lost no meat.
Here is the exit hole.

Let me show you what the wrong revolver boolit does. I lost a whole shoulder on exit. This is the deer after removing the smashed shoulder.
This is what you want from the proper boolit.

JWP, why do you encroach with false information and use my pictures?