My friends to the North (Oklahoma) can now carry their handguns in plain sight as long as they have a CHL. Personaly, I like it. I might prefer to keep mine hidden. What do ya'll think here on the "fire"?

I wouldn't carry a handgun openly for general defense. A visible handgun just allows for a perspective perp to figure out how to nutralize or disarm you.

A well written open carry law would also allow a person to carry a loaded AR in public and thats one good reason to support an open carry law. I could see situations (like katrina or sandy) where a person might want to carry a rifle for something like defense against a riot or looting and under a lot of jurisdictions laws said person could be charged with brandishing or some such.

If openly carrying an AR wasn't exactly what our founding fathers had in mind with the second amendment I don't know what it was.

sorry if I went off on a tangent.

I'd rather a bad guy not know he should shoot me first.



Travis

Great answers, I agree with both of you. I would hate to give away any advantage I might have in a fight.

However, it would be cool to wear your custom 1911 in a custom holster to your next backyard BBQ !!!

The thing about open carry is you can never measure what doesn't happen due to open carry.


Travis

That's my thought as well. I have no issue if others do, but it's not my preference.

It's good to have the option. In certain circumstances, it could be a benefit. For example, you're transporting something valuable, and several members of your family and some friends are going to accompany you, all open carrying.

PS Not precisely on point, but the principle is the same: I once read an account of a family vacationing on their sailing yacht. They were pretty far from civilization, and anchored off a small unoccupied island. A motorboat saw them, and made a straight line for them. The other boat was manned by some unsavory looking characters acting suspiciously (even soon following them when they raised anchor and sailed to, and re-anchored on, the other side of the Island), possibly deciding on whether or not to do something criminal to the vacationing family.

The father, however, had some power tools below deck and a couple of feet length of scrap 2x4. He quickly cut up several facsimiles of Glock 17s, colored them black with magic marker, and had everyone in his family stuff them into their waistbands at 4:00. All returned to the deck with their "Glocks" on display, and within just a few minutes the crew of the motorboat decided they had something better to do elsewhere.

Exactly, and probably there are occasions when a lot doesn't happen in such an environment that would have otherwise.

Correct.

The adage "There's never a cop around when you need one" holds a lot of water in these discussions.


Travis

Right there with ya George, but the rifle scenario is also valid IMHO.

My thoughts prezactly.

Yep, as you so amply demonstrated in that famous picture. Yeah, that was a shotgun, but same principle.

Let's not confuse this discussion...

No government should have the right to ban open carry to begin with. Ever.

I'm just stating that I prefer it not be in the open when I carry in an every day setting.


Travis

Yah! I remember as a kid growing up in Oklahoma, Texas, and Kansas that open carry was no problem. Anybody could do so whenever they wanted to.

Times have changed in the last sixty years!

Michigan is also an open carry state. I don't OC but another advantage is if you conceal carry, printing or inadvertent flashing (reaching for something on a high shelf, for example), won't get you in trouble.

WV is the same as Michigan in this regard. I agree with UPhiker it's nice not to have to worry if you happen to flash a little steel by accident. I've just been of the opinion it's best not to let some things hang out in public. My pistol is one of those things.

Exactly. Florida recently passed a law eliminating the draconian legal consequences that could come into effect if you were caught inadvertently printing or your CCW was inadvertently displayed such as an accidentally rising cover garment. Now a cop has to prove you did it intentionally before legal consequences may attach. We still need legal open carry, though, and there are forces currently at work in Florida whose aim is to accomplish just that.

Discretion is the better part of valor ..... and common sense.

My thoughts exactly, right down to I don't OC either.

these kinds of discussions throw me living in arizona where it has never been an issue.
I have been openly packing since probably around the age of 9 or 10.
Having said i typically don't like drawing attention to myself, so mostly the only time i do oc is when out hunting or running the desert.

Well hell, I could do that when I was a New York State resident. It was specifically authorized in my "sportsman's license." You can open carry while afield with that license, e.g., camping, fishing, hiking, hunting, etc.

Yeah, I wouldn't consider open carry in the field as the same.


Travis

Me either, but I assume you understand I was replying to this: "... so mostly the only time i do oc is when out hunting or running the desert."

Yes. I was concurring.

Time for BGG and I to go open carry and try to murder things.


God bless,

Travis

The handgun carry law in Tennessee does not address the issue of open or concealed carry, leaving that up to the individual. I think concealed carry is the the best choice under most circumstances.

Exactly why many states have ammended their laws to allow open carry after Katrina, to rein in idiot cops.

What i was trying to get accross is in arizona there has never been an issue with open carry, you can openly carry just about any place you want, the exceptions are where firearms are prohibited such as schools, federal buildings and so on. I just prefer to carry CCW. Over the last few years when i went to various anti sb1070 rallies(border issues) at the state capital there were people all over the place packing weapons openly at the state capital grounds. Really never was an issue. There was a publicized incident a few years ago where some guy was packing a A.R. when one of the politicos was giving a speach. We do have people associated with a local gun forum that like to have dinners on a regular basis at some restaurant where they all O.C. They are trying to make a point for what purpose i don't know. Come to think of it, another situation where i typically open carry is when riding my m/c. Very common to see m/c riders with pistols on the hip. A few years ago i did draw a lot of attention although that wasn't my purpose. I was transporting a winchester 94 30.30 up north on my m/c, so i just strapped it accross the handlebars. It did draw attention from those with california license plates. I might also add I just read an article in gun digest where a law has been passed against public display of any long firearm with various exceptions to the rule.

there is no "authorization" on a hunting license, as there is no prohibition.

also understand that it is just a personal preference i tend to carry ccw, there is no rule, never has been preventing me from openly carrying. You don't even need a ccw license in arizona to carry concealed, you certainly aren't prohibited from openly carrying.
My preference for ccw is not drawing attention to the fact that i am armed. While it is not illegal to do so, you are sitting in a restaurant and some guy walks in with a miami vice shoulder holster rig on in plain view, that person is trying very hard to be a target. Which is fine with me, as long as i am not the target.

"Blatantly" open carry makes people around you nervous, especially store owners and gas station attendants. I quote that to mean a pistol on a belt holster with no attempt to cover it. Belt or IWB carry with a jacket or something to cover it where it is not in deep cover but not really hidden somehow doesn't seem so threatening to people, and most folks seeing it think you're a plain clothes cop or something.

If I was a store clerk and allowed to open carry I'd have the biggest damn pistol I could get in a holster in very plain view. Most crooks don't want to even risk getting shot. Unless someone is absolutely intent on murder and mayhem they will pick an easier target than someone who they know can shoot back.

One quick story - my father (a doctor) treated a man late at night at his office. As he went outside the man's friends were in a car and the smell of alcohol was strong. One asked him if he had change for a twenty, which my father knew was a setup. He drew back his coat very conspicuously to reveal the butt of a 1911 in an IWB holster and said casually, "well, let's see, I don't think so..." at which point the guy asking the question back peddled as fast as possible and said, "that's okay! No problem, we can get change at a 7-11". I have another story about a young woman in Miami who let 6 guys surrounding her car trying to get in it know she was armed with similar results - nothing happened.

Point being that most folks don't want to mess with someone who is armed, so letting someone know you're armed can defuse a situation before it happens.

I don't think open carry is an invitation to shoot you first unless spomeone is planning on shooting you no matter what. But it is broadly impolite under most circumstances when other people don't know you. I've grown up with guns but will give a wide berth to Joe Blow walking down a city street openly packing - which I have seen here a few times. Some will say "f'em, I like to make people uncomfortable". That's up to each person.

I don't think open carry is an invitation to shoot you first unless spomeone is planning on shooting you no matter what. But it is broadly impolite under most circumstances when other people don't know you. I've grown up with guns but will give a wide berth to Joe Blow walking down a city street openly packing - which I have seen here a few times. Some will say "f'em, I like to make people uncomfortable". That's up to each person.
_________________________

you said it better than i did, it is basically impolite. There is that. When i see people opening carrying in a red lobster restaurant, i always have to think why are they doing that.

They only changed in Kansas about four or five years ago when we finally got our ccw law. They banned open carry so you could get got for brandishing. I agree that it should never be illegal. As far as doing it, it's just another item in your toolbox.

Most of the time it's not going to be appropriate in civilized areas. I used to open carry all the time walking around outdoors though. Where you normally don't have somebody getting close to you unless something's up, it can be a good thing and also a deterrent.

Open carry saved my life or at least I think it did.

Police open carry and I don't see people shooting them first and asking questions later. Our branch Federal Reserve bank open carries and nobody is shooting them. The guards open carry outside the bank as well. Our game wardens open carry and nobody is shooting them first and asking questions later. Many private guard companies around here open carry and nobody is shooting them.

I could go on but the point being I think being shot first for open carry is a myth just like using hand loads for self defense is a myth. Maybe Montana is different because there are so many guns in this state. I don't carry because there is no need to and health issues plus Helena's screwy gun laws. I don't have a problem with open carry and I wish more of us felt comfortable doing so.

This is my feeling, too. Crooks generally don't want any trouble. They seek out those they believe incapable of defending themselves, and avoid those they suspect might be of a mindset to resist and possibly harm them. Your examples are perfect illustrations of this. That is not to say there aren't the occasional nut jobs out there who will intentionally seek to victimize someone who's openly armed. There are exceptions to every rule.

The law in Okla. at least until the late sixties said "It shall be unlawful to carry on or about your person, saddle, or saddle bags, concealed or otherwise any concealable firearm.". The only legal carry was for law enforcement. Our county sheriff was a good man who 'deputized' us as special deputies.

This

Plus I live in a part of the world were some people would wet their pants if they saw a real gun. Carrying concealed prevents a lot of clean ups on isle three.

Derby, elaborate if you would on Helena's carry laws.

but is chocolate a "real" gun?

I should add, and left it out, It was california that had passed a law on open display of long guns, with exceptions to the rule.

You can open carry as long as the weapon is unloaded. You can only load if there is a clear and present danger. Which opens up another can of worms.

To defend your self requires a CCW. First offense without a CCW is a misdemeanor. To be honest, I don't know of anybody who has been charged for defending themselves without a CCW.

And of course, one can apply for a CCW through the sheriff's office. Supposedly, although I can't verify that, even with a CCW you can't carry a loaded firearm in Helena.

No carry even with a CCW in schools and all government buildings. In schools and government buildings is where one really needs to carry in my opinion.

There are always groups challenging this craziness but I haven't heard of any successful challenges and I must admit I don't keep up.

With my health issues I don't carry at least in the city and the city is reasonably safe so I don't feel the need to.

The new law is a step in the right direction, but it won't change much for me. I'll still carry concealed except when out in the country - myth or not, I'm not interested in a villain picking me to shoot first. IMHO the beauty of CCW is that a perp never knows who might put an end to his career.

As a friend said: "When I lived in San Diego I couldn't get permit to carry a gun any way and now that I live here in Oklahoma, I can get a CCW permit to carry a gun but don't ever feel I need one."

You're wrong on just about every point.

Congratulations?

Well it's nice to be a 100% wrong.

Though I've only spent one beautiful summer day this past summer in Helena, I readily agree with that. Really nice town. I'd move there in a heartbeat.

This is true, how many prospective hold ups or other such crimes are or would be prevented simply because the perp saw a pistol on someones hip?

If crooks weren't cowards in general they wouldn't go to the little old ladys house with its 15 year old tv and antiquated stereo and no flash expensive toys, they'd go next door to the big guys house who has all the latest gadgets and expensive toys and rob him.
Most criminals are cowards who would rather avoid anyone who they perceive as a potential threat.

You are confusing two different scenarios. You are referencing a criminal would be deterred from committing a crime by a mere presence of possible resistance. This could be a cop in the parking lot using the ATM. A citizen carrying open in the store. An NFL linebacker buying a power bar.

These are not the types of criminals people are referring to. You would not open carry on a plane would you? Why not? Because you are expecting a different type of threat. A very determined threat.

Huge differences. And deterrence is not black and white.


Travis

Yes, but I do not carry to protect grandma's stereo. I carry to shoot the next stupid [bleep] that loves the Batman movies, before he can hurt anybody else.


Travis

I am so used to concealing that open carrying a handgun feels strange to me.

Open carry is fine at the range or outdoors, in the city it causes problems. Criminals find it rather easy to disarm a person who is open carrying. Even Police officers with decent holsters have to be aware of this problem. I say don't open carry if you don't have too.

If you're the only one doing it, perhaps.

I don't think weapon retention is a huge concern unless you actively pursue criminals and going hands on is a real possibility day in and day out.

But you do need to be mindful of it.


Travis

I guess Montana is a strange place. I've never felt if open carry were legal in the cities that I was in extreme danger from criminals because of open carry. On the other hand, open carry on the prairies and forest is far more dangerous from criminals both to honest citizens and peace officers yet both citizens and officers open carry in the field. I guess we must still be the Wild West.

It would be nice to have the option, and not have to worry about the interpretation. Let common sense have a chance to work.

If you were attempting to make sense, try again.


Thanks,
Travis

I live in Arizona, and open carry is no big deal here. I've seen guys walking around Walmart with a gun on their hip and no one looks at them "funny" or seemed to care at all. Having lived most of my life in The People's Republic of Kalafornya, I find it a very comfortable environment here in the land of freedom. Arizona's got it's problems, but stupid gun laws aren't one of them.

Criminals find it rather easy to disarm a person who is open carrying. Even Police officers with decent holsters have to be aware of this problem. I say don't open carry if you don't have too.

ah, i don't think so, you wouldn't find it or anyone else find it easy to disarm me.

On the other hand, open carry on the prairies and forest is far more dangerous from criminals both to honest citizens and peace officers yet both citizens and officers open carry in the field. I guess we must still be the Wild West.

Ah, of course we are still in the Wild West. Visit rural arizona some time. I don't know where you get your logic? It is a standard joke in arizona that people don't carjack trucks in arizona, you might get shot. You would be surprised how polite society is when every man/boy is armed. Geez, I had my favorite grandson open carrying while i was with him, when he was about 8 or so. He started with a ruger bearcat, unloaded, moved up to loaded, then up the scale to a springfield xd. The one thing i ain't gonna do is be two hours from response time from a law enforcement agency and be unarmed.
You think it is FAR MORE DANGEROUS FROM CRIMINALS because of open carry?
Twisted for sure.

In Tennessee (where I work and hunt) it is legal to carry open or concealed
In Mississippi (where I live) its concealed only, but they are not concerned about printing or partially sticking out, just no wide open carry

With that being said, I typically only open carry on my property and sometimes at my business. I don't know if its myth or fact - deters crime or makes me a target, but I would rather have my gun concealed or at least partially as to have an advantage if that situation arose. Most people around here don't care either way, but I don't like drawing unneeded attention to myself.

As mentioned before, I would like the option of open carry to cover ARs and such if the need arose

Were I free to choose, I'd carry concealed most of the time. Open carry would be reserved exclusively for instances where an open show of preparedness would seem advantageous.

The point I was trying to make is that it's far easier for criminals to disarm or kill police or honest citizen in the field than it is in the city yet I don't hear of police or honest citizens being killed or disarmed in the field. I believe that the myth of open carry leading to disarmament or death in the city is just that a myth.

If there are actually stats to say otherwise than let someone post especially the police types on here.

I totally agree, wish it was an option in my state(MS) although where I live, there would be an extreme rarity that I would ever even need my gun....where I work on the other hand, it is a daily necessity

You very well maybe completely right, but in the off chance youre not, I choose to conceal

I have a good friend who is LE and even if he is off duty, if he is still in his uniform, he keeps his vest on for the very reason we are talking about, to not be a target

We've had an "unintended consequence" (interesting book, BTW)from a recent open carry law that was passed here. Overland Park is either the largest or 2nd largest city in KS and recently passed an ordnance allowing open carry. About two weeks ago I stopped in a very large liquor store to get libations for a South Dakota pheasant hunt for 11 guys (would have been a significant purchase )and found that they had recently posted it. Rather than enter, I went to the car and called them---they said they decided that it wasn't appropriate to have open guns being carried in their store---evidently none of the clerks felt comfortable having customers openly carrying. I next drove to the local mega-mall where my wife and I frequently go walking when the weather is bad---there's also a Panera and a Barnes & Noble that we frequent there. There are now no-carry signs on the mall entrances as a result of the oc law. Quite honestly, I didn't anticipate that result. Our concealed carry laws have been in effect for about 5 years and neither location was posted---within a week of Open Carry being passed, both locations posted their property.

I've always had conflicting feelings about oc----the deterrent factor is real in some cases, but so is the catalyst factor.


...unfortunately the "armed society is a polite society" concept has its deviants.

Having worked in a gunshop and at a large indoor range, I'm convinced that everyone should be allowed to own and carry a gun----however, it's also convinced me that not everyone should be allowed to breed or vote. The shooting qualification-test for our state is a joke---it literally could be passed blindfolded.....I'm more concerned with the incompetence of the carriers than with whether they're open or concealed carrying. Most people carrying in the State of Kansas (and I suspect most other states also) are less of a threat to their intended target than they are to any other object downrange in a very broad beaten zone (including themselves). Still, I support their right to carry, but indeed ignorance is bliss and knowledge is a burden.
JMO-YMMV

In more places than not, even where legal, open carry will generally be frowned upon and could lead to questions, looks and stops by an LEO. Not right, just a fact. Living in a stupid ass blue state there is no way I'd open carry in town or city unless I was trying to make a statement. Which by the way I think is about the stupidest reason for an "individual" to do something. So while I'm not against it, I really question the intelligence/sanity of someone who goes open carry for a trip to the store. Throw a dang jacket or untucked shirt on for Christ sake.

But "issue" avoidance is really my only reason to be against it. I've yet to see one documented case where a civilian was singled out and attacked first because it was known they had a gun, or was big, or looked tough, or...........

Now you'll note that I put "individual" into quotes above. Personally I wonder if we'd all be better off if everyone as a "group" with open carry capabilities did so on a regular basis. The more folk who get used to the idea the better off we'd all be in the long run. Maybe we should declare first Sat. every month "Open Carry Day" and let the rest of the folk know that it's not gonna be a gun battle free for all that they fear.

I only open carry around the farm or in country where people are few and far between. I don't think OC is a wise option otherwise.

I can. For example, there are arsonous riots going on, and heading your way. You want them to see that folks in your neighborhood are prepared to repel them, if need be.

Also, you and your family are moving from your old house in Miami to your new house in Tallahassee, and in the truck you have your fifty thousand dollar firearms collection, and fifty thousand dollars worth of silver and gold. At gas stops and such, it seems to me you might want to send the signal, when you all dismount, that you folks are prepared to repel carjack attempts. Avoid the trouble before it happens that way.

+1000000 Gentlemen.

Gunner

I originally come from Vermont. Back in the day (30+ years ago) Vermont had no gun laws, open carry, concealed carry who cares there were no laws or licensing requirements for either and there were not gun battles on every corner.

I guess it's just the anarchist in me, let people carry as they see fit with no restrictions or licensing requirements. Hold people responsible for their consequences of their actions if they screw up.

If we all carry, we will be a polite society and criminals will go some where else. Personally, I think the police are more scared of the honest citizen carrying than any criminal.

I should have added politicians to that last sentence as well.

How the [bleep] would you know about the thoughts of any LEO?


Travis

In this regard, I would agree.



Here, however, you are way off the mark.

George

Do you really? Say something intelligent every now and again and you could probably get away with saying that ("I think" that is; the rest of your post is polar opposite of what LEOs would like to see). Right now? Not so much.

well, for about seven years i worked patrol as a sheriff's deputy in yavapai county arizona, which is larger than some states. At times there was only a couple of us on duty for the whole county, and many areas i patroled i had NO radio contact or backup. I had absolutely no concern about being disarmed period. Backup if any, was often provided by some agency that took quite a bit of time to get there. I think the same is true still in parts of arizona, certainly for the border patrol in some areas. Most of the people i had contact with i would have said at the time probably would have covered my butt if needed. But then that was rural arizona. To this day, i have a habit of slowing down or stopping if i see a leo THAT looka like they may need assistence. Course that helps in areas where everybody knows everybody.
Game and fish works with armed people all the time. I don't think i can remember even one of them being shot.

Well you may have a point in more rural areas of any state but you get into the big metropolitan areas such as New York City, Boston, Chicago, etc. and the police are scared of anyone having a gun citizen and criminal alike.

There I compromised for the good cops like you George.

See reply to George.

Cite your source. Anecdotal evidence (talking to a few LEOs) means about as much as what you think (or even IF you think) - nothing. Direct me to a scientifically conducted survey of LEOs working in the inner cities asking them about their perception of an armed, law abiding citizenry. I'd like to read it and examine their survey instrument and the methodology of the application of the instrument. Additionally, I'd be very interested in the conclusions of the PhD(s) who conducted the survey.

Otherwise, as Travis put it; how the [bleep] would you know what an LEO thinks?

I LOVE Utah and yes I OC, EVERY day. This will be me tomorrow am after I walk out of my local elementary school where I vote.

Alan

Makes sense to me. Only a nut job would be looking around for an opportunity to mess with someone who's openly armed. Not saying such nut jobs aren't out there, but that they are rare in the extreme. As Travis intimated, it's probably only a legitimate concern when you're in the process of arresting someone who's determined not to be arrested.

I am sure you are referring to AZ because I know of several wardens that have been shot and/or killed the last few years across the country

They, IMHO, have the most dangerous LE jobs

Them and probably border patrol

....Alan, my guess is that even in Utah if you go into an elementary school and polling place on election day armed, you'll be walking out in handcuffs. Of course, I could be wrong.

If you have an "enhanced" carry permit in MS, you can

No such thing in Florida. When I was in New York, I came across lots of folks who had what amounted to an enhanced permit, i.e., a deputy sheriff badge. They weren't salaried by the Sheriff's Office and performed no duties, but knew people in the department willing to deputize them just so they could carry anywhere they wanted and didn't have to worry about the silly restrictions placed on CCW permits by the various and sundry issuing authorities throughout the state.

In my opinion, that should be the standard concealed carry license, and there shouldn't be any need for an enhanced one, since they have already checked you out before issuing the permit anyway.

They just passed the law a little over a year ago

to obtain a reg permit in MS, all you have to do is fill out paperwork, pay the fee, and get fingerprinted....no class, no qualifications

the "enhanced permit" is issued once you pay to take a class and qualify at a range

The enhancement lets you carry EVERYWHERE except police stations and federal places like post offices and airports

you can carry at schools, bars, parks, churches, polling places, stadiums, ect ect

I see your point, but, the training I have in CC is unambiguous in teaching that I'm better off if the carjacker, robber, etc ... doesn't know I'm armed until I'VE MADE THE DECISION to make it known (IE... By drawing and firing).

Not saying that's a golden rule ---- but it's what I've been taught.

Literally standing next to UHP about to vote in elementary school RIGHT NOW!!!

Alan

You are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to my opinion which is based on my experience. I will admit that the politicians are more of the problem than the police but the police do after all work for the politicians.

There has been more than one case where a person was attacked and killed because they were open carrying. Criminals actually targeted these citizens! Criminals are not impressed by seeing some one with a gun on their hip. They practice in prison learning to disarm people and get pretty good at it. Sure open carry will scare old ladies and liberals.
Anyone who carries a firearm concealed or opened carry, firearm retention is a real concern! If you think otherwise you are delusional. Most are not trained, physically capable, or aware to prevent such a premeditated attack.
Where do you think a confrontation takes place at? Its usually fairly close (feet), in low light conditions.

I like it

But I like CCW to

.....well I can certainly see why you'd love Utah! :-)

In other words, you are basing your opinion on anecdotal evidence. How many LEOs do you know? How many of them expressed reservations about having law abiding citizens armed?

I'm not in Kansas......

Took this pic right after I exited the polls in front of our local elem school. My new "I voted" sticker on my holster.

On another note, I truly appreciate the willingness of many here to verbally suport us who choose to OC, our free agency to do so; even if they feel otherwise.



Within days of my son starting both elem as well as Jr High, I walked in to the principals office and introduced myself and my 1911 to give them headups that they would see me and mine frequently. Has never been an issue.

Alan

Just for the record, would you be kind enough to cite three examples where this happened to a private citizen?

....well, I'm impressed, Alan.
.....do many businesses post in Utah? Can you carry in bars, etc.? If you're Mormon, it's a moot point but I've heard that the % on non-LDS residents in Utah has increased substantially.

Read the second amendment. Its our right! CHL? BULLS###, another tab kept on us...

About the only business's that I see posted are the shopping malls and the theaters. Even if caught OC'ing or CC'ing, if asked to leave and refusing, it's a trespass charge, not a firearm charge. And, for stated reason's, I don't go into bars so couldn't comment on them. Hey, we had 29% vote for Obama yesterday.

Alan

When is a show of preparedness not advantageous?

True. I should have said "particularly advantageous."

i see no reason to carry a gun openly. why would one want to give away any advantage should a dangerous situation develop? why become the first target? just doesn't make any sense to me. ymmv.

I'm all for non-LEOs carrying in what ever manner they choose, as long as it's legal. As a Deputy in Texas, I went to the DPS Headquarters and received the training to become a CC instructor. I paid for it all on my dime. I believe strongly in a person's right to protect themselves with the most efficient, effective means reasonably possible.

With that said, I believe a non-LEO should really stick to carrying concealed, and pull the firearm out if needed. LEOs carry open for the most part. There is a social stigma against shooting an LEO. Whether you agree with me or not is immaterial. Bad guys know if they shoot a LEO their days of freedom, even life, are going to be short and violent. A dead LEO receives much more, much much more investigative manpower, time and intensity than the killing of a non-LEO. It's not fair, but, it's the truth. Additionally, killing a LEO or Firefighter in the line of duty carries the Death Penalty in most states.

If I had asserted that, I'd have been hit with a barrage of angry denials from the cops of the Fire.

I don't think so. You assert some really whacky views at times, but I believe everyone is aware that cops take care of their own. So do firefighters and politicians and any other cohesive professional group you could name. It's that the job LEOs do impacts lives both positively and negatively in a very public manner; they're out there, in the open, for the most part ducks-on-a-pond-targets for the barbs of society. Society expects a great job from LEOs, crucifies them when they do not perform up to societal expectations, but does not reward a great job when delivered. Within 5 years on the job LEOs have, for the most part, only LEO friends. Its a very guarded sub-culture.

You certainly wouldn't have received one from this cop. Being from NH we thankfully don't have the killings (citizen and LEO) that other areas of the country do. That said I would put every ounce of effort I could into such an investigation for any citizen of my jurisdiction. If an LEO in my AO was killed, I would kick in the gates of Hell if that's what needed to be done just as any of us (members of the 'Fire) would for our families.

George

Thats how I feel about it also why give away your edge,If you were a black belt would you

wear that patch on your jacket and alert the punk that you will fight back?

Or just look like a 67 year old grey bearded geezer packing that will kick or shoot your

ass?

Bob

What "tactical advantage", or whatever you want to call it, is lost by carrying openly?

Because you would look like an old man(not much of a threat)taken lightly ,and that

might just give you the edge you need. And if taken too lightly(like old prey)then

you could show your teeth so to speak,and maybe disfuse the situation.

Remember its the old farts with little to loose that should be feared.

Bob

What do I think of Open Carry ? I think it's a poor tactic if you are intent upon protecting yourself from attack by humans.
I have no objections to such a practice, BTW. I mean, let's face it, we all "open carry" when we are hunting.
Don't tell me a human attacker won't attack if you are carrying openly. Does anyone remember the incident where a SE asian attacked and killed some armed hunters in the mid west some years ago ? These hunters were intent upon hunting and simply no idea they needed to defend themselves. Guns don't make you safe. YOU DO, if you are prepared to defend yourself. Weapons only make the job easier assuming you are better armed than they are and you aren't out numbered.
When I was recieved my law enforcement training, we were taught that most cops, back then, were killed with their own guns..... The figure was 80%.
During my career, as an LEO, I met lots of bad guys. I've had BG's try to beat me to death with my own club, I've had them try to run me down with vehicles, and I've had them try to ambush me, to shoot me when I entered a bussiness. Frankly, anyone a cop fights can disarm him and shoot him with his gun. One of my training officers had a bullet scar under his left eye and one in his neck. From his own gun, BTW. The guy that did it went beserk when my TO confronted him about driving with a suspended drver's license...... And he was not the only one, trust me. I can fill pages with stories like that.
Many of the guys I met who held up liquor stores knew they might face a gun and were prepared to deal with that possibility. Some weren't armed. They simply believed that they could disarm the attendant before he could get to his gun.
Some of the bugulars I arrested liked to hit occupied homes. They were also prepared to deal with armed homeowners. Often they were armed as well.
So don't even try to tell me that BG's won't use violence or will withdraw if faced with an open carry situation. Experienced BG's often have had guns pulled on them lots of times. Even by cops. It's common for BG's who set out to do crimes to get high on drugs or to be suffering from drug withdrawals. I confronted a guy at my front door one night with a gun because of this. He thought he could force his way in. When I pointed a gun at him, he wouldn't back down, BTW. Another common occurence with such people. Before I could shoot him, he remembered who he was dealing with.....
Carry openly, if you wish. I shall pray that you are safe while doing so.
BTW, almost no BG's bother to enjoy the wide open spaces, unless they stop by a road side camp ground and try to steal camping gear. For instances, rapes in the back country are almnost unknown. I know of only one in my area in the last ten years. In downtown Sacramento, they are common. E

I open carried when I lived in AZ years ago. I also have carried concealed.

I think open carry makes for a more polite and respectfull society.

There was a thread here on the Campfire about three months ago of a criminal following a person open carrying into a gas station taking his weapon and killing him with it. Two more sources? You can go into any prison and speak with some inmates, ask them their take on it.

So by making myself look like an easy target I'm giving myself an edge? In what kind of situation does that work?

And you admit that "showing my teeth" might diffuse a situation. But showing my teeth too soon has the opposite effect? Exactly when is the exactly right moment to show my teeth?

An old fart with nothing to lose is the same with or without open carry.

I'm not set in my ways on either side of the argument. I open carry 4 days a week in the hood and concealed carry the other 3 days in the burbs. So I'm ripe for convincing. But the arguments used by some here just don't hold water.

I've watched several hours of footage on numerous occasions showing inmates in a California Penal Institution practicing disarming a LEO from the "spread 'em" position. Criminals do practice getting a firearm from someone else's holster. Second, the "shoot me first" scenario makes perfect sense. If a bad guy is armed, and intent on robbing a store, or a person, the first thing they worry about is...themselves. So, they usually pick the weakest looking victim, or store, and rely on surprise and violence to secure whatever they are after. If a criminal comes through the door of a stop-n-rob, gun drawn, and sees you with your firearm strapped to your hip, he has a decision to make; back out and try again later, or, shoot you to neutralize the most obvious threat to his safety and proceed robbing the store.

I've seen those videos too and it's a fairly specific skillset that wouldn't apply to civilians who aren't putting bad guys spread eagle on a wall. But the idea of someone taking your exposed pistol is noted.

And I agree that the "shoot me first" scenario makes sense IF that's how bad guys think. I disagree that it is, for the most part, and in my experience.

If a bad guy thinks through a robbery he'll scope the place out, see the guy open carrying, and care enough about himself to wait for or find a softer target.

If a bad guy isn't thinking through the robbery he'll be freaking out, have tunnel vision, and never notice a guy open carrying over by the snicker-doodles.

Based on my experience in dealing with bad guys I just don't think that stopping for a Coke while open carrying necessarily makes you a bullet magnet.

Like these guys for example.



[video:youtube]http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=related&v=pa-wfOo36qY[/video]

Obviously not all bad guys will act like that, but the point remains. Those bad guys didn't even notice a UNIFORMED COP in the store. Much less a regular dude with a Glock 27 on his side.

Bad guys are generally stupid. And they suffer from the effects of adrenalin the same as everyone else (tunnel vision, etc.). And they spend a large amount of time intoxicated to one degree or another.

If you choose to conceal or carry openly more power to you. But let your decisions be made based on the odds of what actually will happen, not what you've heard might maybe happen on the interwebs.

Those were awesome.

Your thinking on this matter comports most with my best judgement just based on human nature.

I suppose our experiences with bad guys differ then, as will our conclusions of the ramifications of open carry; we'll just have to agree to disagree.

One of the things I learned on the street is never give the other guy anything he can use against you. When he sees anyone armed, he knows who he must deal with and how. You, on the other hand, don't know he's armed or intends to do bad things until he makes his move. Once he does, you are trying to play catch up.
LAPD, who has the best survival rate of all the big city police departments, world wide, made an extensive study once as to what factors come into play that detemine the outcome of a gun fight.
The only significant factor was the guy that fired first, won 50% of the gunfights. The only other factor at all was the guy that shot his gun dry first tended to loose.
You don't "give away the fight" by telling the other guy beforehand what he's up against. To be forewarned is to be forearmed. E

I've do the best I can to be mentally and physically prepared for a gunfight. But I also refuse to live my life in condition black. Stress related illness kills far more cops than bullets do.

I'll stay prepared for what I know will happen, what will probably happen, and what might happen. For all the things rest that COULD happen, I'll trust in my training and the good lord above.

While one can argue that the stresses of being a cop kill far more of them than bullets do, but the two issues are not related.
Second, those of us that have lived that way have learned that one doesn't have to go around "on edge," or "ready for that ligntnig draw," to win the day in a shootout.
What you do is follow certain good habits. I always sit where I can watch the door(s), for instance. Unless I simply have no choice. I pay attention to the people around me. Those that are relaxed and having a good time are of no concern. Those that are tense and watchful are another matter.
If they are a potential threat, don't pay alot of attention to what they say. Watch what they do instead. Watch what their friends are doing. Above all, watch their hands. This is what Jeff Cooper used to call situation awareness. It isn't nearly as hard to do as many think. The hard part is adopting the proper habits and making sure you follow them. Above all, listen to your inner voice telling you something is wrong. That has been called the Gift of Fear in the book by the same name. Was written, BTW, by a guy who is opposed to private gun ownership. But it does accurately describe how to handle, use and react to danger. E

A LEO should never be in condition black (frozen with panic). However, unless in your easy chair, eating cheese doodles and scratching your nuts, you should never be in condition white, or totally relaxed and oblivious. I think most LEOs live in condition yellow, remaining situationally aware, even at home, but especially on the job. An LEO that is in condition white or black, on the job, is a liability to himself and those that depend on him for back up.

Well for one I'm 5 11 and 210 and stronger than a Miss Mule ,but by looking older my

potental attacker might just not take me for a real threat. I could shave and look like

Audie Murphy,and my attacker might concieve me as a threat first hand.

I would rather him not think so then kind of come out of the blue hard and with much

predudice. Like I kill deer. I would prefice this to say in no way is this baiting

and I wish for no confromtation as I have searved in Hell and have no wish to go back!


Bob

I plan to carry open in the summer when it is too hot to wear an outer garment. No problem covering up with a jacket or coat in the winter time.

At 5'8"/170#, I have no problem carrying a Glock 19 inside a Crossbreed wearing 5.11 shorts with an untucked cotton tee-shirt. For occasions where that is a tad underdressed, a Khar PM9 in the pocket is second best.

If I open carried I'd be concerned about the possibility of having to defend against bogus accusations e.g. menacing, brandishing, aggravated assault w/ a firearm, etc.. these charges are often felonies and - well - it's your word against theirs.

Where open carry is legal, this is of no concern. Such issues are exactly WHY many locales legalized open carry after Katrina. I don't carry openly, but I'm glad I have the opportunity to do so.

This wasn't me but could have been. It is about 1/2 hr from where I live. Found this in the Open Carry forum of the utahconcealedcarry.com web site last night. Open Carrying in Utah is VERY legal and becoming more prevalent. The LEO's are now fully trained about it, many supporting it.

"I open carry, not because i don't have another option but because its more comfortable for me. I open carry pretty much everyday and pretty much everywhere I go. If there are signs i'll conceal just to avoid drama.
Anyway now that you know that this will make sense.
I walked into wal-mart in Saratoga springs today to get some steel wool and a can of boiled linseed oil. In and out trip. While i was in the store i remembered i needed a gallon of milk and some dog food, i get the milk and as I'm walking over to the pet section i see this lady glaring at me, i didn't really pay attention to her and went on with my shopping, i get to the pet food aisle and she walks up to me and says "does that gun make you feel like a big man?"
I turned and looked at her and noticed she had a pretty mad look on her face, so i Just kept my mouth shut.
She says "sir I'm talking to you!" I turned and said "and I'm ignoring you" she scoffs and says "you know the police carry guns to protect us, so you don't need that gun" i said "hmm that's great, get one to escort me around all day everyday and ill leave it home" she starts yelling at me with a bunch of anti gun points of view and what not and then starts yelling "this man has a gun!" Then a couple guys come walking briskly over to see what the heck is going on. The see that I'm just shopping and they tell the lady to "chill out or leave, he is legal to have that gun and is not hurting anyone or anything."
She walks off and i get the rest of my items and head to the check stand, this is my favorite part.
I get to the check stand and she walks up and says "the police are on the way." I say "cool we can ask them if they can be with me at all times to ensure I'm always safe" she starts yelling again and the manager walked over and says "mam you need to leave, your being loud and extremely rude, your behavior won't be tolerated here" i said thanks to the manager and went on my way. I get out side and there is a policeman outside waiting with her. He walks up and says "excuse me sir are you a felon?" I said nope he said you have a ccw? (Concealed Carry Weapons permit) I said yes and he said ok have a good afternoon and happy thanksgiving! I said thanks officer. As i got in my truck to pull out i saw her being put in handcuffs. I'm assuming they asked her to leave and she didnt and they got her for trespass or something. The policeman was great, Walmart employees were great and the other customers were getting a kick out of this lady losing her mind in the store. I didn't feel like the policeman was wrong for asking 2 simple questions and i have to say wal-mart scored a point in my book for today. I have heard horror story's about Wally World but while my experience today was a little wacky bit all in all went ok in my book. An the dog food was on sale!! 10.99 for a 20 something lb bag of puppy chow"

"I later got in touch with the officer and he told me that she kept getting mad at him for not doin anything to me and stood in front of his vehicle and wouldn't let him leave so he got her for obstruction."

+1 for Walmart and the SSPD. I love Utah!

Alan

Excellent! She got exactly what she deserved.

Even though I live in Wyoming, this is why I don't normaly open carry in town. Even here you run into this mentality, though I haven't seen such an extreme case,I have heard snide comment's coming from some. Always been a female, and always all indignant.

Females generally feel more free to be obnoxious due to the tabu against men striking women.

The only negative encounter I've had.

Last year, in Salt Lake City, I had just walked out of a cake shop, where I'd bought a birthday cake for my youngest daughter. To get to my truck, I walked past a restaurant window. My 1911 was fully exposed, as usual. I got into the truck and could see into through the window where a couple were having a meal. The man, looking at me, was shaking his head back and forth in disapproval with a scowl. It just happened my son, then 12, saw this. A verbal tirad, for a 12 yr old, spewed forth and he wanted to get out of the truck and go give the gent a piece of his mind. In a fatherly tone, I reminded him that everyone has a right to their opinion and to express that opinion. We drove off. I am so proud of my son! Even all my son's friends who come over know I OC and could care less. They're used to it. Teaching them young is easier than teaching them older.

Alan

I hope in a gun friendly state such as Wyoming, where I believe one can open carry and is unrestricted in most public areas and generally accepted, you good folks don't loose that right. I believe that if a right is not exercised, you may loose that right. It takes time for both the LEO's and the citizens to become aware of the OC rights. Once that has happened, less and less negative encounters occur and more and more positive one do. On the utahconcealedcarry.com site, over the past number of years, I've read more and more positive and less and less negative encounters.

Alan

Alan, That is probably true, and it has been a while since I have heard any negative feedback from anyone. I think too that example's of people using their concealed carry to thwart violence help's,in the perception dept. Like the incident some month's back where a jerk was assaulting a female outside a local theater, when a local gent intervened. Long story short, the jerk ended up shot in the groin. The shooter did NOT have charges filed against him, and I heard nary a negative word against him.
TRH, I'm not really sure how it all correlate's, but to be clear, I also know a lot of women who support carrying firearm's. Some of them carry themselves. It has always just surprised me that in a state such as this that there are people who are freaked put at the thought of it.

That tale warms the very cockles of my heart.

For some reason, I don't fully believe that story. Instead, I think that guy was having his own little under-the-sheets fantasy about what he would LIKE to happen when he visits Wal-Mart some day.

You never know. It is da innanet, after all.

I carry both ways, I have a CCW, most time a carry concealed, but will open carry when camping, hiking or hunting. I have not encountered too many idiots when open carrying, but have some. I just ignore the Libtards, not many have big enough spine or balls to confront us.

Truer words may have never been spoken.

If it's on the innanet it's got to be true!

It should be legal, but it's a poor choice in most public situations to openly carry rather than conceal, in today's world.

I don't care what other people do unless they're looking for attention.

I could not agree more.

-Z

It should be legal to carry OC. That doesn't mean that I would carry open. What it does mean is that you wouldn't have to sweat flashing and printing in the summer.

It should be an individual's choice in how they want to do it or not.

+1

+2