So going back to the days when the .38 Colt Special was first created, I gotta wonder why anyone ever thought a 158 grain round nose bullet at 850 fps would be a good choice for self defense? The only thing I can think of is energy figures. When you compare the energy figures to the .44 cap & ball revolvers, they come out pretty close. And the sad thing is, the military bought it hook, line, & sinker. What�s worse, Law Enforcement swallowed the whole damn fishin rod and NEVER seemed to spit it back out. I�m sure the allure of such a small, lightweight, handy revolver with low recoil was awfully nice to those who were convinced they would never need it. Even after its impotence was proven, and the military switched back to the .45, Law Enforcement just stuck it out with the 38 Special (S&W version) for a LONG time. I recall working with Farnam in �91 and he told of when he revamped the NYPD handgun training program, and they were still using the .38 Special 158 grain Lead Round Nose even that late. Why on earth did they stick with it for so long?

That's like asking why the european police have used the .380 for decades and still do.

I just don't get it either.

lee Jurris sure changed things with his SuperVel ammo, BUT it still took decades for the police to change to high velocity ammo.

Virgil B.

The first part of your question is easy, the .38 Spl (and S&W, LC, etc) were direct descendants of the Colt Navy from the mid 19th century when a slow round nose (or worse still, conical) was all there was. The Hague convention then banned better bullets for military use very nearly as soon as they were invented.

The real question mark to me isn't the lack of evolution in the bullet but rather how a weak .36 caliber was ever seen as appropriate anywhere outside of a pocket derringer in the first place. That's not on the .38 Spl but on the Colt Navy 50 years before.

The apocryphal story is that police in the 19-teens and 1920's figured that their .32 revolvers were not powerful enough to reliably stop cocaine crazed negroes. This was apparently a growing problem in the 20's, particularly when you mixed cocaine with the growing popularity of jazz music, so they went to the more powerful .38 Special.

Whether this is true or not I cannot verify, I wasn't there, it's just what I read somewhere.

Added: Found this article supposedly from the New York Times, Feb. 8th, 1914. An excerpt:

"The following day, the Chief exchanged his revolver for one of heavier calibre. Yet, the one with which he shot the negro was a heavy, army model, using a cartridge that Lieutenant Townsend Whelen who is an authority on such matters, recently declared was large enough to "kill any game in America." And many other officers in the South; who appreciate the increased vitality of the cocaine-crazed negroes, have made a similar exchange for guns of greater shocking power for the express purpose of combating the "fiend" when he runs amok." (bold mine)


Note "Lieutenant" Whelen

For some of the large police forces, it probably was a sweet spot. Those large forces like NY had to train and keep trained 10 of thousands of officers, most of whom did not come from gun backgrounds. They had to do this with very few range facilities. I don't know if its true of not but I heard NYC has less than 200 firing points on its ranges and the NYPD has 35,000+ officers

The 38 in a medium frame DA revolver is about as simple to operate as you can get and has mild recoil.

I will bet that for a long time in the 20th century lots of small departments looked to NYPD/FBI etc as a model

From today's perspective, the grand old .38 Special might seem weak - but it was developed because it was MORE powerful than what they had been using.

We once thought that 2400 baud was screaming fast internet, remember? Because it was eight time faster than the earlier 300 baud modems.

It is and always was politics, Kevin. LAPD, for many years, were not allowed anything larger or more potent than the 158 gr. RN lead until they started a PR program to educate the public. Until then, they got lots of complaints about "excessively deadly" HP bullets. They were finally allowed them to switch to the 9mm w/ HP ammo after an extensive PR program that rallied public support for their needs.
That and cost. NYPD, for instance, had ONE shooting session lasting about 50 rds. for their new cops. To this day, they still have minimal training but at least they allow the use of the Glock pistol. E

I read a while back about the NYPD's switch to hollowpoints. In the article it stated that they went from the LRN to the SWC. Then to a +P version of the SWC. The NYPD also played with some soft point ammo in the 38 and 9mm but never could get it to expand.
All of this was due to the higher up politicans in New York not wanting the officers to carry the deadly hollowpoints.

I have always wondered why the 38 started life as a LRN. The 45 colt did as well. I guess they were a product of there time.

Me's confused on so many levels on this thread....... Are we bashing the S&W special cause the .38 LC did so poorly at the turn of the century? Not even comparable............

.38 Colts never even approached the S&W Special. They were lighter bullets going slower. Not to mention the piss poor bullet designs of the day (including those for the .45's).

Remember this was long before Trauma Centers and Paramedics. Anyone shot was likely to die. Either from bleeding or infection. The 38 Special was the typical police and civilian cartridge for about eighty years. Apparently it worked!

Idaho,

There's a big difference between likely to die, and stopping.

Maybe it wasn't the cartridge so much as the guns. Lighter weight etc. controllable,

Perhaps they fell into the trap that many do, even today. They look at bullet weight/mass and velocity to determine the stopping factor. Few look at bullet shape. The round ball in a cap and ball revolver was actually a pretty reliable fight stopper due mainly to the shape of the ball. Look at the pressure wave created by a ball in flight. It is a miserable "flyer" but a very decent "killer." That same pressure wave is translated to a similar temporary wound cavity based on the shape of the nose. The round nose .38 was much more sharp in profile. I'd bet, given the same bullet weight, but with a "ball" nose, a 158 grain .38 would be a much better stopper.

Dan,

I can�t help but wonder if it was precisely that. None of the proven fight stoppers were available in anything small and light weight, so you cook up some energy figures, put it in an attractive package and let �er rip. Sad thing is, look a the success they had.

I can remember when the NYS Police were allowed to carry personally owned .357 mags, but were only allowed to load them with issue .38 special ammo. Kinda shows you where NYS gets the mentality that it's okay for people to own 10 round mags, but can only legally load seven rounds in one.....

New York has always allowed their officers to carry �other� weapons, but you lose your indemnity if you do so. I�ve always thought it was rather humorous when people are offended that your handgun could hurt someone. Hello�handgun!!

Sometimes success is marketing, sometimes it's availability, but other times it's cause it just plain ass works. Look at the .38 LC and .38 S&W. They sold the crap outta em for a few years, even to the military as noted, but still they both died a fairly quick death. Why? Cause they sucked and no amount of marketing was gonna save em. Not thinkin it was marketing that made the .38 special last so long. But instead that the gun and cartridge combos that were offered did what people thought they should. Current sentiments about the .38sp not withstanding. After all, the .30-30 isn't good for much now either.

Police departments always go with the best equipment they can afford, and this includes everything from police cars to sidearms. Following the police car analogy, if the department buys Fords, then they train the motor pool to work on Fords, and the spare parts in the shop are for, yup, Fords. Over time Ford, because of training and support, becomes the norm for the department. The same is true with handguns.

When I went thru the academy in 1976 I was one of 7,200 deputies employed by the county who were trained on the .38 caliber S&W Model 10, the work-horse of law enforcement sidearms. The county issued our ammo, and required us to qualify quarterly. That meant that at any given moment there were over a quarter of a million rounds being carried by deputies, and that many more being used in qualifying every 90 days; all in, the county probably went through 1.5 - 2 million rounds of .38 Special each year. In terms of economy of scale, there was no reason to swap from the .38 Special to a more potent round as the costs would have been prohibitive.

The S&W Special made the �.38�s� at least viable, but on the low side. The LC and S&W Long were capable of getting the job done on someone who wasn�t wearing really heavy clothing, and the shots were placed well. The .38 S&W Special will make it through heavy clothing and much more in the way of intermediate barriers than the former options were, making it barely adequate for the task IMO. The standard �power� tests back before the turn of the 20th century was the 5/8� pine board test, and the .38 Special penetrated about as many pine boards as many of the larger caliber rounds at the time. That �proved� to everyone that the little pip-squeak gun could do the job; but we all know it was barely adequate.

Still, after John Farnam revamped NYPD�s firearms training back in the �80�s, NYPD went 3 years without losing a single gunfight using their Model 10�s and 158 grain RNL; so it CAN get the job done, but it�s certainly not ideal.

I went through the police academy in 1976 as well. We were allowed to carry .357s, .44s, 45s but had to buy our own ammo. If we wanted ammo supplied, it was .38sp rnl. Still, we had to qualify at ranges including 50 yards so it can be said marksmanship was stressed a bit more than it is today. That could be a factor.

I know the .38sp snub guns have killed a boat load of people over the years. So, while it ain't the greatest or latest, it has filled a few grave yards. I might add, I know of one deputy who managed to kill his man...er in this case woman, with it. She was filling the air with lead and he managed to place one where it would do the most good. Still, she didn't drop but the blood trail she left would have made any deer hunter happy.

Dan

I'm not so sure. Many will be a lot more brave knowing, or at least thinking, they are likely to survive being shot. After all we have all grown up watching our TV and movie heores being shot week after week only to return and catch the bad guy.

Back years ago being hit with anything, anywhere was something to be avoided at all costs.

I think it was invented so I would have something light to practice with instead of shooting my big magnums all the time. Seriously, I think it was just the evolution of calibers getting started.

I would have been carrying a S&W Triple Lock in .44cal back then. Just Sayin

The sole purpose of it's invention was as a stepping stone to the .357 Mag.

to paraphrase what's been already said, it was an improvement over the .38 Colt. It was also originally a blackpowder cartridge, but according to one reference it was switched to smokeless soon after its introduction. Americans were often more frugal in those days, and the crime rate was a lot less, too. And last, people were often a little thinner and smaller in those days.

It did the job, was/is easy and economical to shoot well, and still does okay with upgraded loads and bullets.

I agree. But the term "stopping power" fits better with shotguns or rifles rather than handguns.

This reminds me of a passage in a book I read some years ago about an encounter between a bank robber and transit authority cop (a black cop, btw, which will figure in shortly) in NY city in the 1970's. I forget all of the particulars except the exchange of gunfire took place at a range of a few feet. The robber was armed with a .45 automatic and the cop had his .38 Special revolver, both emptied their firearms at each other. The cop was unscathed, the robber was dead.

When questioned about it later and whether it was unnerving that he had to shoot it out with a gunman carrying a bigger, more powerful weapon, the cop replied, "Shootin' straight with my .38 beats him givin' me jive with a .45".

That last phrase always stuck with me.

The .38 Special was developed at the end of the blackpowder era as an attempt to provide more power in an easily portable platform than the .32 and smaller .38 cartridges of its day. The large frame, large bore revolvers that were already available were simply too bulky, heavy and expensive for general police use. Shooters generally had much more limited tolerance for recoil and the typical small grips on revolvers were uncomfortable for use with heavy loads.

This was at a time when handgun power was measured by the number of 1 inch pine boards that the bullet would penetrate, there was no such thing as an expanding handgun bullet and even the semiwadcutter bullet had not been invented. The .38 Spl would penetrate 8 1/2 boards spaced 1 inch apart, and was considered powerful for its day.

It quickly became the standard police sidearm and agencies saw no compelling reason to change for 3/4 of a century thereafter, because it seemed to work as well as anything else that was commonly available. This attitude did not change until the advent of more effective guns, bullets and loads in the 1970's and 80's.

Even when the .357 was introduced in 1934, the .38 Spl reigned supreme in police use because the .357 revolvers were bulky, expensive, loud and thought to have excessive recoil. They were considered to be specialized weapons for highway patrol officers and others who might need to penetrate vehicles.

Ok looks like the old .38 is [bleep] and the .380 too so I would like some volunteers to come foward so as I can shoot them with the wimpy guns and see how useless they are . Who's first ? I got some ideas who I would like from this website :grin

The 38 Special properly loaded was and is perfectly competent for self-defense.
As the streets calmed after prohibition and the depression, heavy police weaponry such as Tommy guns and carbines faded away.
Then, and later too, American criminals generally packed various 25ACP & 32ACP autos along with the full catalog of domestic 32 and 38 wheelguns.
Relative to break top 32's and Spanish or Italian pocket pistols, a nice 38 SPL Colt or Smith & Wesson inspired confidence.
In today's dick measuring contest, not so much.

I thought it was because police generally want to arrest you and have you stand trial rather than execute you on the spot.
whelennut

A 22 in the Pump, or CPU, causes serious problems.

The 38Spl was right, in it's time. It has only gotten better with advances in powder and bullets.

Hitting gets a lot of bad press!

The 38 Special was invented for the same reasons the 357 Magnum showed up in middle-sized frame guns. A more powerful inception of its predecessor(s) in a package most average men could fire and hit with.
The 36's probably got some successful press with Hickok.

Well I've treated a LOT of gun shot victims, and my comment comes from direct observation. I've had several patients who were fatally shot, but had a lot of fight still in them at the time I got to them.

Oh that's just priceless.

+2!

Just like the .38, the .380's have the availability all over Europe and mideast and price is ALWAYS right... Low-vel rounds are dirt cheap and easy to use in almost anything with a primer-punch. Sad part is the fact of taking 6 rounds to do what a .357 hp or.45 will do with one.

I can relate to the LEO's hanging on to the .38's, even some had .32 S&W Kit-guns for "hides". The first real gunfight they went through usually was a bad case of DISSAPPOINTMENT. I left the Sheriff Deptin '79 and almost all in the area were still in cowboy mode with wheelguns. The late 70's saw alot going to .357
Mags. (still in the S&W 13 and 19, and Colt Python modes..) Europe got into Steyer(sp) 9's and eventually we got on board with "change" here with Glock and others.. I missed the transition. I lucked out with never having to save my own butt with a .38 model 10 S&W. Viet Nam wasn't so kind, but had a .45 to keep me warm there.

Like meteorologists use models to forecast weather, institutionalized law enforcement uses models in the selection process for firearms and ammunition. Throughout most of the 20th century, the model used was tradition. It wasn't until the 60s and 70s that the models began to switch to experimental and laboratory. As far as the use of LRN as late as '91, that would have to be nothing more than training ammo, as I believe the last ones to hang on to the LRN for duty ammo, such as LAPD, dumped it some time around the late 70s through the early 80s.

Best:)

Gary is right. By the early 1980s NYPD did not use any round nose. They used semi-wadcutter and HB Wadcutter for training.

.38 Special, why was it ever invented?

Because they needed a really great cartridge for the BABY CHIEF!



DMc

The military transitioned back to a .45 caliber cartridge from the .38 Long Colt (not the .38 Special) which was loaded with a 150 gr bullet at just over 700 fps IIRC. That was the paradigm of the day � nothing more, nothing less.

NYPD (and many others that I recall) had already transitioned to the SWC (or other bullet design) by the early 70�s, and they made the jump to a +P loading in about �88. When I started in the late 70�s, I was not familiar with ANY LE agency of consequence using the LRN loading.

I�m taking nothing away from John Farnam when I say that I�m fairly certain he did not �revamp� anything at NYPD. Did he visit and offer suggestions? That�s certainly possible, but the NYPD FTS has pretty much been and remained something of a closed-loop.

With a proper load, good hits and the wherewithal to use it effectively the .38 Special will keep you alive as it has for many others for many decades now.

If I was around back in the day, I'd pick a .32-20 over the .38 special. After all, no one ever wrote a song about the .38 special.