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So going back to the days when the .38 Colt Special was first created, I gotta wonder why anyone ever thought a 158 grain round nose bullet at 850 fps would be a good choice for self defense? The only thing I can think of is energy figures. When you compare the energy figures to the .44 cap & ball revolvers, they come out pretty close. And the sad thing is, the military bought it hook, line, & sinker. What�s worse, Law Enforcement swallowed the whole damn fishin rod and NEVER seemed to spit it back out. I�m sure the allure of such a small, lightweight, handy revolver with low recoil was awfully nice to those who were convinced they would never need it. Even after its impotence was proven, and the military switched back to the .45, Law Enforcement just stuck it out with the 38 Special (S&W version) for a LONG time. I recall working with Farnam in �91 and he told of when he revamped the NYPD handgun training program, and they were still using the .38 Special 158 grain Lead Round Nose even that late. Why on earth did they stick with it for so long?
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That's like asking why the european police have used the .380 for decades and still do.
I just don't get it either.
lee Jurris sure changed things with his SuperVel ammo, BUT it still took decades for the police to change to high velocity ammo.
Virgil B.
Last edited by vbshootinrange; 04/09/13.
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The first part of your question is easy, the .38 Spl (and S&W, LC, etc) were direct descendants of the Colt Navy from the mid 19th century when a slow round nose (or worse still, conical) was all there was. The Hague convention then banned better bullets for military use very nearly as soon as they were invented.
The real question mark to me isn't the lack of evolution in the bullet but rather how a weak .36 caliber was ever seen as appropriate anywhere outside of a pocket derringer in the first place. That's not on the .38 Spl but on the Colt Navy 50 years before.
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The apocryphal story is that police in the 19-teens and 1920's figured that their .32 revolvers were not powerful enough to reliably stop cocaine crazed negroes. This was apparently a growing problem in the 20's, particularly when you mixed cocaine with the growing popularity of jazz music, so they went to the more powerful .38 Special. Whether this is true or not I cannot verify, I wasn't there, it's just what I read somewhere. Added: Found this article supposedly from the New York Times, Feb. 8th, 1914. An excerpt: "The following day, the Chief exchanged his revolver for one of heavier calibre. Yet, the one with which he shot the negro was a heavy, army model, using a cartridge that Lieutenant Townsend Whelen who is an authority on such matters, recently declared was large enough to "kill any game in America." And many other officers in the South; who appreciate the increased vitality of the cocaine-crazed negroes, have made a similar exchange for guns of greater shocking power for the express purpose of combating the "fiend" when he runs amok." (bold mine) Note "Lieutenant" Whelen 
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For some of the large police forces, it probably was a sweet spot. Those large forces like NY had to train and keep trained 10 of thousands of officers, most of whom did not come from gun backgrounds. They had to do this with very few range facilities. I don't know if its true of not but I heard NYC has less than 200 firing points on its ranges and the NYPD has 35,000+ officers
The 38 in a medium frame DA revolver is about as simple to operate as you can get and has mild recoil.
I will bet that for a long time in the 20th century lots of small departments looked to NYPD/FBI etc as a model
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From today's perspective, the grand old .38 Special might seem weak - but it was developed because it was MORE powerful than what they had been using.
We once thought that 2400 baud was screaming fast internet, remember? Because it was eight time faster than the earlier 300 baud modems.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
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It is and always was politics, Kevin. LAPD, for many years, were not allowed anything larger or more potent than the 158 gr. RN lead until they started a PR program to educate the public. Until then, they got lots of complaints about "excessively deadly" HP bullets. They were finally allowed them to switch to the 9mm w/ HP ammo after an extensive PR program that rallied public support for their needs.
That and cost. NYPD, for instance, had ONE shooting session lasting about 50 rds. for their new cops. To this day, they still have minimal training but at least they allow the use of the Glock pistol. E
Last edited by Eremicus; 04/09/13.
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I read a while back about the NYPD's switch to hollowpoints. In the article it stated that they went from the LRN to the SWC. Then to a +P version of the SWC. The NYPD also played with some soft point ammo in the 38 and 9mm but never could get it to expand.
All of this was due to the higher up politicans in New York not wanting the officers to carry the deadly hollowpoints.
I have always wondered why the 38 started life as a LRN. The 45 colt did as well. I guess they were a product of there time.
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Me's confused on so many levels on this thread....... Are we bashing the S&W special cause the .38 LC did so poorly at the turn of the century? Not even comparable............
.38 Colts never even approached the S&W Special. They were lighter bullets going slower. Not to mention the piss poor bullet designs of the day (including those for the .45's).
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So going back to the days when the .38 Colt Special was first created, I gotta wonder why anyone ever thought a 158 grain round nose bullet at 850 fps would be a good choice for self defense? The only thing I can think of is energy figures. When you compare the energy figures to the .44 cap & ball revolvers, they come out pretty close. And the sad thing is, the military bought it hook, line, & sinker. What�s worse, Law Enforcement swallowed the whole damn fishin rod and NEVER seemed to spit it back out. I�m sure the allure of such a small, lightweight, handy revolver with low recoil was awfully nice to those who were convinced they would never need it. Even after its impotence was proven, and the military switched back to the .45, Law Enforcement just stuck it out with the 38 Special (S&W version) for a LONG time. I recall working with Farnam in �91 and he told of when he revamped the NYPD handgun training program, and they were still using the .38 Special 158 grain Lead Round Nose even that late. Why on earth did they stick with it for so long? Remember this was long before Trauma Centers and Paramedics. Anyone shot was likely to die. Either from bleeding or infection. The 38 Special was the typical police and civilian cartridge for about eighty years. Apparently it worked!
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Idaho,
There's a big difference between likely to die, and stopping.
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Maybe it wasn't the cartridge so much as the guns. Lighter weight etc. controllable,
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Perhaps they fell into the trap that many do, even today. They look at bullet weight/mass and velocity to determine the stopping factor. Few look at bullet shape. The round ball in a cap and ball revolver was actually a pretty reliable fight stopper due mainly to the shape of the ball. Look at the pressure wave created by a ball in flight. It is a miserable "flyer" but a very decent "killer." That same pressure wave is translated to a similar temporary wound cavity based on the shape of the nose. The round nose .38 was much more sharp in profile. I'd bet, given the same bullet weight, but with a "ball" nose, a 158 grain .38 would be a much better stopper.
"It's a source of great pride, that when I google my name, I find book titles and not mug shots." Daniel C. Chamberlain
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Dan,
I can�t help but wonder if it was precisely that. None of the proven fight stoppers were available in anything small and light weight, so you cook up some energy figures, put it in an attractive package and let �er rip. Sad thing is, look a the success they had.
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I can remember when the NYS Police were allowed to carry personally owned .357 mags, but were only allowed to load them with issue .38 special ammo. Kinda shows you where NYS gets the mentality that it's okay for people to own 10 round mags, but can only legally load seven rounds in one.....
Mathew 22: 37-39
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I can remember when the NYS Police were allowed to carry personally owned .357 mags, but were only allowed to load them with issue .38 special ammo. Kinda shows you where NYS gets the mentality that it's okay for people to own 10 round mags, but can only legally load seven rounds in one.....
New York has always allowed their officers to carry �other� weapons, but you lose your indemnity if you do so. I�ve always thought it was rather humorous when people are offended that your handgun could hurt someone. Hello�handgun!!
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Dan,
I can�t help but wonder if it was precisely that. None of the proven fight stoppers were available in anything small and light weight, so you cook up some energy figures, put it in an attractive package and let �er rip. Sad thing is, look a the success they had.
Sometimes success is marketing, sometimes it's availability, but other times it's cause it just plain ass works. Look at the .38 LC and .38 S&W. They sold the crap outta em for a few years, even to the military as noted, but still they both died a fairly quick death. Why? Cause they sucked and no amount of marketing was gonna save em. Not thinkin it was marketing that made the .38 special last so long. But instead that the gun and cartridge combos that were offered did what people thought they should. Current sentiments about the .38sp not withstanding. After all, the .30-30 isn't good for much now either.
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Police departments always go with the best equipment they can afford, and this includes everything from police cars to sidearms. Following the police car analogy, if the department buys Fords, then they train the motor pool to work on Fords, and the spare parts in the shop are for, yup, Fords. Over time Ford, because of training and support, becomes the norm for the department. The same is true with handguns.
When I went thru the academy in 1976 I was one of 7,200 deputies employed by the county who were trained on the .38 caliber S&W Model 10, the work-horse of law enforcement sidearms. The county issued our ammo, and required us to qualify quarterly. That meant that at any given moment there were over a quarter of a million rounds being carried by deputies, and that many more being used in qualifying every 90 days; all in, the county probably went through 1.5 - 2 million rounds of .38 Special each year. In terms of economy of scale, there was no reason to swap from the .38 Special to a more potent round as the costs would have been prohibitive.
Life is hard. It's even harder when you're stupid. --John Wayne
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The S&W Special made the �.38�s� at least viable, but on the low side. The LC and S&W Long were capable of getting the job done on someone who wasn�t wearing really heavy clothing, and the shots were placed well. The .38 S&W Special will make it through heavy clothing and much more in the way of intermediate barriers than the former options were, making it barely adequate for the task IMO. The standard �power� tests back before the turn of the 20th century was the 5/8� pine board test, and the .38 Special penetrated about as many pine boards as many of the larger caliber rounds at the time. That �proved� to everyone that the little pip-squeak gun could do the job; but we all know it was barely adequate.
Still, after John Farnam revamped NYPD�s firearms training back in the �80�s, NYPD went 3 years without losing a single gunfight using their Model 10�s and 158 grain RNL; so it CAN get the job done, but it�s certainly not ideal.
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I went through the police academy in 1976 as well. We were allowed to carry .357s, .44s, 45s but had to buy our own ammo. If we wanted ammo supplied, it was .38sp rnl. Still, we had to qualify at ranges including 50 yards so it can be said marksmanship was stressed a bit more than it is today. That could be a factor.
I know the .38sp snub guns have killed a boat load of people over the years. So, while it ain't the greatest or latest, it has filled a few grave yards. I might add, I know of one deputy who managed to kill his man...er in this case woman, with it. She was filling the air with lead and he managed to place one where it would do the most good. Still, she didn't drop but the blood trail she left would have made any deer hunter happy.
Dan
Last edited by Dan_Chamberlain; 04/09/13.
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