FWIW:

http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/10/0...10-11&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter

meh.
Opinion piece with little thought given if he considers a .45LC marginal. With modern ammo it's nipping the heals of the Casull.

I agree with the first comment. Too much thought given of equipment vs. skill, technique, etc.

Here we go again using energy as the deciding factor for killing a deer. While the 357 will work (I've done it) its really on the minimum side for deer, but again it will work. Moving up to the big three, 41, 44 & 45 they are easily able to take deer with quality hits & will almost always exit if using good ammo. Don't look for the "knock down" effect of riles, you won't usually see it, but the sixgun is deadly in the hands of good shooters. You need placement & penetration & you can punch your tag! If you need more horsepowder you can move up to the 454, 460 or the mighty 500, along with additional recoil. Shoot what you can handle & the sixgun is a great hunting weapon.

Dick

Someone here always makes the comment "bullets matter more than headstamps" and in the case of handguns its even more so.

Saw no mention of bullets....

well lets see, i have seen brain pearce, who i respect and trust his judgement say in print several times he has wacked and elk with a .44special and had the bullet penetrate clear through.
as to the .45colt being marginal, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
I did look up his background, kind of in a different area.

last tuesday i was up in deer hunt unit, and had two does about 30yards from me standing broadside. We can't shoot does here, but it wouldn't of been an issue with the underpowered 10mm glock i had setting next to me. Phooh!

Prezactly, Ron.

I don't agree with much of this article. It seems to me the author has a poor grasp on handgun hunting and what it requires to kill an animal as it certainly isn't muzzle energy. I guess everyone who wants to hunt deer with a handgun should run out and buy a .500 Smith......good grief.

Makes you wonder exactly what was the author's objective. Selling 500 S&W's, or something else?

That author is almost as stupid as you.

Almost.



Travis

You gotta wonder where they find these dumb fuggs?



Travis

TRH can't be everywhere. There are apparently more of them than first believed.

Field and Stream.

Longest shot I ever took with a handgun on deer was about 73 paces, 45 Colt with a 250 grain SWC went clean through. The Deer went about 20' before it was out of blood.

That idiot who wrote the article doesn't get out of town much, maybe he writes more than he does. Perhaps he does not understand all he knows

It appears it was just to put some words on paper for money, since little of what was stated is factual

I shot a smaller mule deer buck at around 40 yards with a Sig 226 .40 with some hot handloads. He was dead in about 75-80 yards.

I guess some people still cling the thought that it takes 1000 ft-lbs or so to kill a deer, which is laughable. I really think many still think along those lines because too many bypass perfectly good options to buy the latest and greatest hand cannon to go kill something they could kill just as dead with any service caliber handgun.

Anyone that attempts to rate lethality with "foot pounds of energy" does not know what they are talking about and have zero credibility.

An article without substance. Makes it hard to agree or disagree ... or learn anything from.

Tom

Agree 100% with this.

One word, crap.

Explain please.

I have shot deer with a 6" 686 using 140 grain and 158 grain JHP's. Though the deer had little reaction other than slumping to the ground in a pace or two the wounds internally were devastating. I plan to shoot one with my Glock 10mm. I use 180 grain XTP's running 1325 at the muzzle. I practice with it to 100 yards so hopefully if I can get within 50 yards it should be a clean kill. Placement is key. I go for the double lung when I can.

few years ago, i cast up some 270gr rcbs scovill bullets which came out at about 281grains. I think it was 8.5 or 9 grains of unique. s&w model 25-5 in 8inch barrel.
I shot clear through a four inch prospectus, bullet burying itself in the ground, which i recovered. It' miked out at over .9 basically flattened out to double it's original size. And that wasn't any super load either. It seems like a trend in some of the gun rags people writing about stuff they really don't have any knowlege or experience with, and more than ever written with an agenda to promote who ever paid for the space in the mag.
I have people now and then tell me the .45colt is obsolete, which shows the degree of ignorance.

That article ought to be written on Charmin so at least it would have some redeeming value.

Without good shot placement even a rifle will fail to give a quick kill.I took a nice white tail buck 2 seasons ago with my 1911 20yrds broadside it went 40 yrds.230 gr xtp loaded warm.

It's typical of the BS you read in 'some' magazines. Obviously written by someone who knows very little of hunting with handguns. It's the kind of crap you would've read in a rather pedestrian hunting magazine 30yrs ago.

Whitworth has a grasp on it and says it best. Hard to beat a .44 or .45 Colt. Marginal will be the .357.

Yep, the bigger the hole thru the vitals, the better. That hole is what kills, but I personally like'm big.

You are dead on. Back in the day, magazines were filled with crap by folks who really just wrote for a living. If ft. lbs. was the only guideline, there would be no bow hunters.

I spent my life shooting guns and all sorts of game big and small. Whenever I shot an animal big or small I considered what was necessary to complete the job in the most effective manner. I didn't read an article on how to, I had shot an HK K-3 in 380 a lot.

Although some may consider the shooting of a deer with a .380, nothing more than a stunt, I did calculate how close I needed to be, then get there and make a killing shot. As simple or complex as it was it takes more than reading an article to shoot any gun well...

I do not understand at all, CraigC, Whitworth and JWP do not get along with me but all post the right things.
Very strange all agree.
Been years and years that I said ME means nothing but now it is repeated by those that did not agree.
Been very hard to explain a ball round from the 30-06 has ME but does it kill like a Nosler BT?
To even shoot at a deer with a .380 is a stunt with only a brain hit where the stinking little bullet might not reach it. You will not break the spine or kill with a lung shot. That is a stunt and not in the reputable hunter status. I expect the next will be the .25 auto will kill deer.
You can kill with a .22 between the eyes but if you deer hunt with a .22 your ethics do not belong in the field.
Shrapnel might have broken the law. States have limits to to the guns. I am sure a .380 is not legal.
Many of us are not PURE but to wound any animal with stupidity can't be forgiven. Waste is my concern, I could care less what you do to eat.
I am not enamored with a deer kill with a .380. It is an inch from suffering a slow death.

Popcorn time now. Here we go............

Yep, just another one of those things somebody stole from you, the originator of all truth. Did you come up with TKO too? Did John Taylor steal that from you?

You couldn't do it because you can't shoot a handgun for schit.



Travis

The deer wouldn't tolerate him dragging his shooting bench within range.

Shrapnel, a picture is worth a thousand words for me. As long as one knows their ability and has the self control to wait for a shot that they feel is within that ability, they have my full endorsement for what may well be considered stunt shooting. In fact, the guys I know who actually do stunt or trick shooting are so practiced with their chosen gear that there is very little left to chance when they squeeze the trigger. .380 deer, .222mag bison? Go for it.

222 mag for bison, now there is a challenge...

You have it to do.

I'm sure there is a law against shooting into the air too, but if you know how, you can shoot rocks out of the air...

Please don't use B-Tips. Never would hear the end of it.

Only truth, come here with a .380 to hunt deer and pack it back home. I really expect you "EXPERTS" to kill with a .177 pellet rifle next.

Tossed straight up, How about holding your Mark I in the left hand and tossing a bottle as far as you can with your right hand, grab the gun and break the bottle?
I shot through the holes in washers tossed in the air. proven with tape over the washers. Yeah, tough shooting so you can use stupid guns to hunt. You are a real stupid man to hunt with a gun that can hurt and not kill. Those that agree with you are not very smart either.
My slingshot has more then your stupid .380.

Proof is in the pics, isn't that what you always say?

What the hell does aerial shooting have to do with this thread? Just more chest thumping from the chestless.

Maybe for mortals.



Travis

Don't be ridiculous.

This is a handgun forum.



Travis

Let's see some dead deer with your slingshot.



Travis

That's it. I'm gonna have to take a deer with the .357, the .32H&R, and the .25-20 this year. They aren't bullet proof.

In Oregon the handgun rules are .24 center fire for Bighorn Sheep, Rocky Mountain Goats and Elk. .22 center fire for everything else (Black Bear, Cougar, Deer, Pronghorn, during the firearm seasons.

Now, where is my Jennings .25 ACP Bone Collector? I got a fresh box of 35 grain Hornady XTP's to kick some Elk ass!

I seriously doubt you could reach an elk brain cavity from any angle with a .25acp. What the heck is Oregon thinking?

Maybe this is the cougar they had in mind for the .22 center fire pistol.

Real men hunt with an icepick or a toothpick blowgun.

I quit telling other people what kinda gun they should use a long time ago. I have killed too many deer with .22 rim fires and .22 cf's to be considered an expert on this forum.

When an animal isn't retrieved after being shot with a gun with "marginal" power, the answer is always use more gun. When an animal isn't retrieved after being shot with a gun with "heavy recoil" the answer is always use less gun.

The real answer is to always place your shots where they count, and if you can't, don't take the shot. You can compensate for lack of shooting skills by choosing a different gun.

Well the rocks in the air weren't paint cans.....that's what really pisses him off.
That and s/he's a herm.....

Where'd derby_doesn't go to?




Travis

+1. Some people just don't get it.

Another +1

Posts like this are why no one gets along with you

You really are a phucing tard

I know a couple of guys who've killed mtn lions with 22 magnum revolvers. They're no more bulletproof than deer. What makes you think that a 223 or 22-250 in a contender isn't sufficient for cougars.

My Grandad killed a mulie with his 38 special 4" M10 one year, turns out a 158 RN factory load will break a deer neck at 40 or so yards. Shoot sheit in the right place and it dies, that's how it works, how it's always worked.

I know a guy that has killed a pile of cougars with a 22 mag.




Travis

Nobody except your tiny circle of followers (and I am quite sure it is tiny) cares even a little bit about who you get along with, what you can't forgive, or what you are enamored of. Still having trouble getting over yourself, I see.

If you handle it like a bowhunter, using bait and a tree stand, don't fire at dusk, you'll probably be able to see him fall, even if you only use a pocket 9mm. Dont fire beyond 30 ft or so with such a little gun, and hit the spine. Bowhunters get much closer, all the time.

Yeah. That's it.



Travis

cougars are shot out of trees, over dogs. They might well hang in the tree for a minute or more, after being lung shot by the .22 mag. Hunters like it that way, cause a powerful load might drop the cat into the dogs, while the cat still has some fight left in him. Good dogs cost many thousands of $. So what works for a dog man is not necessarily any sort of recommendation at all for someone hunting deer.

With rare exceptions, you've got to have complete penetration for a hunting handgun rd, so that you get an exit wound/blood trail to follow. You DO need a certain minimum of muzzle energy in order to achieve that threshhold of performance. Where that minimum is, I neither know or care. I want the maximum, cause I go deer and hog hunting in order to test my defensive carry ammo on man-sized critters.

Squeshus Christ......

Muzzle energy...........

I can't decide if the new guy is on crack or just retarded...

How do your people loads perform on deer?



Travis

Doncha' just love when that's quoted as THE measure of lethality??

Yep, never ceases to amaze.......

Can't it be both?

Quoted for posterity.

JHFC!

TFF. You just can't make this stuff up!! (Except if you are a personal friend of colonel Cooper and invented IPSC, along with inventing the internet.....)

How big were the washers?

They were actually semi truck tires...

Now a film showing this would be worth watching...

hell, I make Belleville washers that are a 10" ID, and 11" OD. Bet I can hit the center

If I had to use a HG on a couger i would use my 480R...

But

What do you think about a .17 HMR?


Snake

This is better than monday night football!

Dick

Where did squesh go? Was it a hit 'n run?

Oh, he's still around, jumping from post to post-thread to thread. Trying to get his post count up. Whatever good that's gonna do him.

OK, there they are....now I'm ready to listen....

I started corresponding with Jeff in 1970, and my name is on the 1976 Columbia Conference Charter that set up the IPSC. anything else you want to know? Check it, it's on Google. I"m John Davis. google the IPSC startup. I was 10th at the first IPSC natl''s rode out to Golden, CO from St louis with Bill Wilson, for a fact. I was 19th at the first IPSC world shoot, in Rhodesia, instead of 3rd, cause I was 4 days getting there, no sleep, due to an aircontroler's strike in london. That's checkable, too.

The high .45 user in that world shoot, Raul walters, I beat 7 out of 9x on his home range in Columbi, MO, in 1978, after I drove 130 miles each way to get there.

Just because what happens to be your name is on that charter does not you a signatory make.

https://www.ipsc.org/ipsc/columbiaconference.php

Most especially when that name is also the same as this known, worthless POS - http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/07/goodbye-gunkid.html?m=1

Glad I already had them on....Too much more and I'll dig the waders out...

Show us a picture of yourself with a newspaper with a current date. I am good friends with John Shaw, captain and 9 year member of the IPSC world championship team from that time frame. John forgets nobody.


I'll be glad to go over to John's house and look at the pics from that era to confirm or deny your story...



Sincerely, Mackay.

"John Melvin Davis is well known among internet gunnies as "Gunkid, Hardin, Andy, and a hundred other pseudonyms he would use to disrupt gun forums. Gunkid was the inventor of the assault wheelbarrow, the advocate of a "debarked" Chihuahua as an alarm system, and a .223 fired from a 10" barrel as the ultimate weapon, which he claimed was useful up to 300yds, but only when used with a suppressor because Gunkid had a severe flinch when shooting without one. He liked to allude to his magnificent IPSC shooting career. There are no records of his exploits. However, there are complete records of other competitors scores, shot in the time frame he claims to have been a competitor."


http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9276237/Squesh_Gunkid#Post9276237

Oh yeah, John Davis.

I remember Tony Kanalay had some choice words for and about him when he was still posting on the old Shooters.com site. Among other things something about him shooting someone's dog. Tony called him out pretty squarely, IIRC, and had him rattled. I had forgotten his name until now.

If squish is JD, he seems to have improved his grammar.

And he disappears like a thief in the night.........

Funny no response to the offer to confirm or deny his claim....

Not too surprised......

Wish I could remember the details. I don't think confirmation is what scares him. IIRC, it's things those who were there remember about him. From what I remember of the tone of Tony's post, it wouldn't surprise me if he had been "deleted".

I'm glad derby_didn't posted this article for everybody to learn from.



Travis

Now that I know all about handguns and hunting, I might go buy one...

tony's a lying pos. Shaw had just got started about 1979, I had to stop competing in 1980. Milt's wife must have forgotten (or Milt never told her) that I paid-back the money that he give me to go to Africa. I made a nice, blued steel and gold crayon, engraved (DVC) trophy buckle for Milt. We were good friends. He kept it in his wife's Jewelry box, or so he said.

just because I don't bother to come here often doesn't mean that you amount to a [bleep], or that I am concerned about what a bunch of losers 'think" that they "know".

If you want to see a loser, look in the mirror.

Says the newbie....... Your credibility was in question the moment you mentioned muzzle energy.......

the above,basically covered the subject rather well.
I had used both a 8 3/8" 357 mag and 8 3/8"44 mag revolver for several decades before the 445 DWSM came out , I bought one, with a 10" barrel and its an excellent pistol, I also bought a 454 cassul with a 8" barrel a few years later, both have significantly more power than the 44 mag, which pushes a lee 310 grain to about 1250 fps in my 10" S&W revolver, each can push a similar weight bullet at least 300 fps faster, but the net result did not change, a good hit with any of the 44-45 caliber revolvers kills deer and hogs very effectively but you seldom get the instant kills that a 308 win or 270 win provide, with similar hits, this does not make them less fatal, to the game, but it may take a different mind set, hand gun hunting is a bit more like archery in that you normally need to get into under 50-70 yards for quick easy shots and game tends to run, a short distance then drop.
theres no real disadvantage or advantage in using the larger more powerful calibers other than increased recoil and noise and the pistols are larger and heavier, but in exchange you get a bit flatter trajectory, and at least on paper more damage on target, but because even a 44 mag loaded to 1250 fps punches clean thru deer and hogs and produces a very dependable fatal wound Ive found little advantage in the larger and more powerful calibers

Now I know you are 100% full of schit..

Tony Kanaly is one very no nonsense, straight shooter. I just had lunch at the Milt Sparks shop on Tuesday. Tony was not there at the time, but the rest of the crew was. The VP is a close and long time friend of mine, and others who work there are friends too.

I've known Tony for roughly 20 years now, though I don't know him nearly as well as others on the Sparks crew, I can say without hesitation that Tony has never been anything but a class act.

When you are calling out someone like TK as a liar, I know beyond doubt, John Melvin Davis you are everything that everybody has described you as.

Time for you to crawl back under a rock, or back to another prison cell... I'm sure your parole officer would not be amused as to your postings under various aliases here...

How do you shoot deer with a .22? Between the eyes when spot lighting of course. How do you kill a deer with a .380? Must be massive Me.
I shot too many deer in PA archery hunting that had healed in .22 bullets on the rib cage from butt wipes to even consider the stupidity. I have seen too many deer lost with 30 and 7mm mags but some will say a .22 mag is best. Yeah between the eyes with a light. Darn sure a .22 mag will kill a deer but you better see it fell.
Who would I hunt with? Whitworth and JWP for sure even if we have issues. Issues are not important enough to me.
I will never condone toys for deer. I do not condone head shots either. Most of you can't hold 4" at 25 yards yet claim to shoot deer in the brain.
Am I enamored with a guy shooting a deer with a .380, no a fool with 100% luck.

Years ago I fixed a .38 S&W for a guy. I lived in the city so the best place to test was in my old mans car. I stacked 2x4's on the back floor and leaned over the seat to shoot. Every bullet was stuck in the first 2X4 not even half the depth of the bullets. Great deer gun for some of you. Not far from a .380 in power.
Deer are NOT easy to kill. This is a fully expanded .22 bullet in a deer's neck that I shot with a bow. Turning green so it would most likely die from gangrene.
You CAN kill a deer with a .22 or .22 mag but can you find it? Only fools do that stuff. Squirrel hunters that see a deer out of season or with a light at night. I can't count the arrows and .22 bullets I found in deer. Healthy until I used the right gun or bow. Two of three arrows found healed in deer chest cavities.

"Generally speaking, the primary handgun cartridge choices for deer hunting include the .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, the .44 Magnum, .45 Long Colt (marginal), and the .454 Casull."

I would say, ignorantly speaking if this author thinks the 45 Colt is marginal compared to the others he listed. What a dolt.

Probably marginal in the sense of being used in a Colt SAA or any of the Colt clones. Not so in a Ruger or Freedom Arms or any of the specialty revolvers design for hot .45 Colt loads.

That would be my take on his comment.

In about 40 years of handgun hunting, I have made two bad shots on deer with big-bore revolvers. One of them was with a Ruger 45 Colt, loaded with 255 grain SWC's at around 950 fps. The other one was with a 44 Redhawk 44 using 300 grain XTP's at a known 1310 fps.

In both cases the deer goosed as I was triggering the shot, and it landed about 6" behind the shoulder and 4" under the spine. The 44/300/XTP deer bled like a stuck hog and went damn near 200 yards. The 45/255/SWC deer went maybe 50.

Now a fool would look at this and say the 45 SWC is a four times better deer stopper than the 44 JHP.

A rational man would look at this and say the fool on the trigger should have done a better job.

Both loads have flattened deer for me when slammed into the spine at the shoulder. I hate cloud the issue with logic, but shot placement matters more than paper energy.

How dare you, sir!

Holy sheep shcitt batman, how dare you try to use logic against raw emotion, fantasy, lack of experience, and what the internet EXPERTS proclaim to be true.

(P.S. my experience matches yours)

IME, the 45 Colt loaded properly in a Colt Single Action Army is most adequate and not marginal at all.

I've not played with a bunch of different bullets in handguns, but what I've noticed is that it doesn't take a whole heckuva lot of velocity for an LBT to do what it's supposed to.

My experience is that a slightly heavy one, even if it's moving at modest velocity, usually has an in-hole, an out-hole, and a lot of broken parts in between.

Exactly! Vic you speak with the wisdom of experience.

Keep digging.



Travis

Can we get a ruling on marginal 45 Loads?

I'm tempted to load up some FFFg and see what I can do this year.

Always curious why folks think it takes more to kill a 200 or 300 pound non-man than a 200 or 300 pound man?

Well said!

You might try shooting yourself with a 380 to better understand the pathetic power of the 380. My guess is you won't, even though you know they are not lethal. Of course a brain shot would be nearly impossible due to the size of the brain...

Now THAT was well said!!

shrapnel...what load did you use?

Bob

I find this puzzling as well.

+1

I'm sure many thousands of big game animals have been dispatched with aplomb via 45LC and lesser rounds with black powder. Dangerous game not with standing this trend over the last 25-30 years of magnum handguns being "needed" to kill big game is pure marketing. Sure I own a few boomer handguns simply because I can, but I'm not foolish enough to think they are needed.

Only further discussion I can see is that a guy cares about meat loss in hunting and not so much in SD where the object is to stop the threat as quickly as possible with more emphasis on tissue damage.

Medical scientists claim an average 200 to 300 pound man cannot take the same punishment that a 200 to 300 animal can take. It has something to do with the biology.

I'm neither a doctor nor a biologist neither human or animal. I don't know it's what I read and hear.

You have a link to backup that claim? I can assure you that a black powder 45 colt will take a deer very cleanly. Marginal, I think not.

One would be trying to kill you and if my weapon was adequate for protecting me from death, then it dam sure would be adequate to take a deer.

From what I understand, some of it has to do with the pressure required to pump blood horizontally to the brain versus vertically...

+1. I dunno what results people are used to, but if a SWC at 850/900fps isn't getting it done, the shooter is the problem.

Nope. Just stuff I've read over the years. I did put a disclaimer in there for whatever it's worth.

Derby Dood talking about hunting is about as funny as him talking about suppressors..

That right there is a really good example of why you have no fan club outside of Loserville, KY (aka WDIL). You love to act as if you are the only one with everything figured out. You're the only one that can shoot worth a damn. You're the only one with the magical wunderlube that allows you to do mind tricks on deer, summon fairies and shoot half inch groups. Well, maybe that last part is true.

For the guy who says pics are everything, did I imagine this head shot? Sorry but I don't have pics of all the other critters I've head-shot. You'd probably call me a liar if I told the tale of killing two big does together, one a head-shot and the other with a quickly successive shot through both shoulders.

A little cranial evac, there, ehh?

Very easy, you take out one lung not both so survival can be if an ambulance gets there. Read how many survive after shot with a full mag of nines.
Whitworth was here when a young lady shot a deer in the front of the chest with a .223. We lost the deer with not a drop of blood even with all the ME. I went to my stand an hour later and found the deer, gutted it and found the bullet made 6" only, never reached the heart. The deer was well over 100 yards from where shot. There was no blood under her either. The girl now uses a 30-30.
Only a fool will use less a gun that kills 100% of the time to make a name for himself.
I respect the animal, will not fall into the fool spot.
I respect Whitworth's and JWP's experience so why don't you bash on them about how great the .380 is?
I have taken too many deer with a .45 Colt myself to say it is "MARGINAL." I have also taken many deer with my Ruger Old Army and round balls. Kills as fast as a .44 mag.
I will only say a .22 or .380 or nine deer hunter is a fool.

That is not a handgun shot or a .380 shot so what is your point?

So, after all the drama thus far, answer me this: If I wanted to carry my .45 Colt New Service (somewhat marginally more strong than a Colt SAA), loaded with fairly stiff 255 grain semi-wadcutter handloads, out to distances at which I can consistently hit a softball sized target (say 30 yards)- would I be kidding myself? Note that I am not a pistolero, just a guy who dabbles with a couple Colts and who happens to be pretty good with this old New Service.

You'll kill deer just fine, buddy. Put the bullet in the boiler room, and make sure the knife is sharp.

And that's what I get for arguing with an idiot.

Would it help if you took off your shoes?



You are truly a master of hyperbole.

You might as well wrestle a girl, there is no satisfaction in winning an argument with an idiot...

Be careful or you will get stalked in threads and challenged to come to his place. You will also get flamed on "We Deal In Lead" and will not be allowed to defend yourself.

bfr is a moron.



Travis

That would be a bigger disappointment to him than me...

An idiot is anyone using a rim fire or .380 for deer.
JWP and I do not get along and he did sneak in to wedealinlead to come after me and was caught. But I would prefer to hunt with JWP and Whitworth any time over an idiot.
CraigC still did not say what magnum rifle he used on the deer head. A revolver of any caliber will NOT do that. Maybe he will claim a .22 HP.
I remember Whitworth bringing a .338 to hunt deer, he did good. maybe I should have given him a mark II with hollow points.

I don't think the original post was about a revolver for deer, but a handgun. There are lot of handguns that can do that to a deer; Encores, Contenders, XP-100s, etc. A .460 S&W might have a pretty good chance of doing the same from a revolver, with the right bullet.

Otherwise, carry on with the poo throwing at each other.

I have to hand it to you, you really do know how to make friends. I would expect an invitation from either one of those guys any day now for a hunting trip...

WRONG! I've seen the same on a doe I shot at about 35yds with a 240gr XTP at 1450fps from my .44 Mag. Simply split the skull wide open

True a hard cast shouldn't do that but a JHP with good speed hitting the skull plate absolutely can canoe a deer's head. It isn't like a deers skull is 3" thick kevlar.

I was responding to you denigrating everyone's shooting ability, you dumbass. Had nothing to do with cartridge selection for deer. Pay attention to what is being quoted.



How would you know? You already admitted that only fools take head shots.



Yes, we know you guys like to pick fights on other forums and then run back to WDIL to whine about it and openly berate people you envy. It's sort of your calling card. It'd be a shame if any you run your mouth about were actually present to defend themselves. This is why I left that retarded site, a place for ignorant grown men to act like "mean girls" is not my cup of tea. It is good that you and the mentally defective, intellectually stunted midget have a place where you can run wild and free, away from the rest of us.



Jim has an open invitation to come to Tennessee. I'll gladly pay him $100 for every half inch group for five consecutive shots at 50yds that he can produce. If he produces at least one, I'll pay all his expenses. I'll also post pics of the results for all to see. Seriously, no bullshit. Sorry Jim, but you're not shooting any of our deer and the inbred retarded midget is not invited.

Heck I would cover the airfare for that debacle...

Pretty good deal, Jimbo! I have to draw the line at ten half inch groups though. If you manage that, not only will I pay you $100 each and your expenses but I'll eat my hat with a side of crow, post pics of your feats, extolling your prowess on every forum I'm a member of, get you a hooker before you head home and be your cyber-lapdog for the rest of your days. I'll do everything I can to get you the recognition you deserve. No s-h-i-t. Just don't invite the midget. Don't want the livestock getting molested.

Unlike many I never, ever claim to do anything "on Demand" and only that I make as accurate a load I can.
But yes I have shot deer in the head many times but only to finish if I can't keep up with them. Like one I shot on the run and it was leaping when I shot, took out both front legs. Brush was thick and all I seen was the head at 40 yards so I did him in with the .44. Sorry I did not have a single shot with a mag rifle cartridge.
I am not so stupid to try and shoot deer in the head with a revolver. Found too many dead deer with jaws shot off by fancy rifle guys.
Too many stories about bullets turning on a skull from .22's to .45 ACP's.
I kill deer, not try and wound them so it is hard to talk to stupid.
I use enough gun not a toy. Animals are not stunt targets.
I have a very small area I look for morals in the spring, nothing to find 10 rotting deer, found 12 on one property during season with snow on the ground. The stupid should be soundly beat with their guns. You do nothing but place yourself in the STUPID range and should have your license taken away.
I love a jerk that shoots at a deer and it doesn't fall so he waits for another and another because his gun has so much energy, deer don't run. Or he has a toy. A slingshot is better.
I find it hard to continue with real stupid that should not be allowed in the field.
A huge laugh when a guy shoots a deer with a .380 when I bet all he can do is 2' at 7 yards on paper. The wallet gun is not capable except with luck. Muzzle against hair shooter. Bullets that can flatten on bone.
To see so many nut swingers over stupid stunts baffles me. Not many hunters I can see. None of you ever lost deer either.

You are so full of schit it's astounding.

Maybe you should talk to Whitworth and degrade him once. I seen him shoot from a ladder stand, off hand and blow up the little water bottles at 100 yards. Why don't you say he is full of it, he liked my loads.
Funny you have never shown what you can do, seems you are afraid. Your keyboard is magic. The reason for your doubt is you CAN'T do it. So of course, nobody else can. I bet you shoot 25 yards only and are happy with 4".
I have a great deal of respect for Whitworth because he really does what he says and yes I respect JWP because he knows hunting. I hold no ill towards them.
But you are another case with no proof at all.
Since I am on SS you take advantage, trying to get me there, come here. You might learn something. Learn the revolver and you might shoot better then you ever have.
I doubt it, you know too much.
I shot this at 50 yards with Whitworths new BFR in .500 JRH while working loads, ask him, he was here.
45-70 BFR at 50 but can shot twice at 100 yards.
OK, show us or are you just a big mouth?

You are the one that stands to make up to $1,000.00 and get your expenses paid for by excepting the challenge and performing as you claim. That should go well for you and your fixed income.

I've posted plenty of pics but you're apparently too drunk or retarded to remember. So drop all the condescending bullshit about 25yd shooting. Really??? Is it for keyboard magic that I just setup a 2nd Dillon 650 just for the .45Colt? It's irrelevant anyway. I'm not making radical claims, I'm disputing yours. Yes, we've all seen the random 2-shot groups on paint cans and shoot-n-see's.

I'm not driving to WV for multiple reasons.

1. I don't believe you, so I'm certainly not going to go to any effort or expense to prove you right or wrong. All I'm providing is a chance for you to prove yourself, a place for it to happen, a skeptical witness and motivation to do it.

2. I'm self-employed and work 7 days a week.

3. I don't have anything to prove. YOU are the one making the claims. Put your money where your mouth is.


All you have to do is produce one five-shot group to get your expenses paid. Gas and lodging. I'm not bullshitting you about the rewards. I will do exactly as I said. I'll pick you up from the hotel and drive you to the shooting area. Range will be determined with a Leupold laser rangefinder and you have full use of my shooting bench. I'll even run back and forth changing your targets. I'll allow 50rds to produce a single half inch group and pay you for as many as ten. No more than two days shooting. I'm not looking for an opportunity to slander. I'll report the results truthfully and objectively either way.

In my enthusiasm I forgot the details of previous rantings. The claim was 100yds. For you posted this back in July and have done so multiple times. So your challenge is five-shot groups at 100yds, not 50yds. Come on, for a guy whose shot "hundreds", two or three would be easy, no? I'll up the ante to $200 per half inch group.

Come on, throw in a gold coin or two. That'll seal the deal.

I've got some Canadian dollars.

Hold onto them.

Before its over in the USofA, those things may be rock solid.

I know a lot of sportsmen who would call this an unethical shot. Maybe you should just get off your high horse.

I will happily visit bfr next time I'm in West Virginia.



Travis

They don't have sheep, but they do have purty moufs....

The women in that area adore me.

So do the men.



Travis

Damned near impossible to tell the difference any way.

Yep.

A lot like Thailand.

Only, very different.




Travis

The Thai have teeth and it takes three of them (not one) to weigh 400 pounds?

To borrow a movie quote, "watch out for your cornhole, bud".

If you're lucky (or very unlucky) you'll get to meet Jim's biggest fan!

That's a lot of whining for little trip from W Virginia to Tennessee. I'd cross three western states for such a sure thing if I had all the free time you do. Who turns down a free road-trip?

I don't know where in WV he is but to the closest major city, it's an 8hr drive. I'll pay him $100 just to show up.

EDIT: I looked up Jefferson County, it's 12hrs from his county seat to the hotel I'd put him in, in Savannah, TN.

Screw it, if he produces five half inch groups, not only will I pay him for them I'll buy him a non-resident hunting license and let him deer hunt a couple days. Free reign over 100acres of prime Tennessee rolling hills and mature hardwoods, surrounded by friendly neighbors and more of the same. I'll even let him sit in my favorite spot, ferry him back & forth and provide meals. Then he can not only claim to be one of the finest shooters extant but that he also killed deer somewhere other than WV. That's an all expenses paid week-long hunting/shooting extravaganza.....at a profit! As long as you don't invite the chemically-induced, comatose, shirtless midget pictured above.

We have the same taste in movies.



Travis

That's $100 just to show up.

Groups are for five consecutive shots, no flyers, cherry-picking or paint cans. Whatever revolver Jim chooses with his loads. Only stipulating that it's done with a revolver, firing a revolver cartridge.

$100 per half inch 50yd group (max of 10).

$200 per half inch 100yd group [max of 5(might as well be 1000)].

Produce one at 100yds or two at 50yds and I pay ALL your expenses. Gas, food, lodging.

Produce five half inch groups at either distance and you'll get two days of guided deer hunting and I'll buy your license ($175). Last place I paid to hunt, this would've cost $1000.

He can make up to $2000 for his shooting, plus $1175 worth of hunting, food, gas and lodging. Plus a full write-up with photo proof and all the credit he would surely deserve. All he has to do is backup his claims. Should be easy for someone who has done it "hundreds of times". All cash, no bullshit. You want to quiet ALL your detractors? This is your chance. Succeed and you'll have my full support. Fail and I'll at least respect you for having the guts to try.

That short fat whiskered midget is scary looking, for sure. I see now why he is not invited.

You would NOT want that thing after your daughter!!!

Hell no, no way! Wouldn't want that after anything.

I'm telling ya, you need to add in a gold coin.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/182519/1

Had a great uncle that took a fresh WI deer every year for MANY years with a Winchester 32-20, said it was all he needed as he had a good sneak.

No handgun hunters in my family including me.

Alright, and a gold coin!

Hey Jim, I saw about 12 deer from my favorite spot yesterday.

Somehow, I think my money, our deer herd and Jim's present reputation, are safe.

Crickets.

You would think that someone who whines about being on a fixed income all the time and claims to have shot "hundreds of sub half inch groups" would've jumped on this opportunity. Gets to prove himself, gain a supporter and get paid cash money for his efforts. Wonder what that means?

Don't forget that he claims to have shot 1/2" groups at 500 yards with a revolver, so 50 and 100 yards should be very easy for him.

I did find a picture of bfr shooting one of his groups. I will have to admit that I believe him now...

Still no word from the treehouse club.

So I should take this as a no? Is it because you can't invite the fat, sister-poking midget?

Hello Dick
I agree accuracy is Final. Regards, The General