I'm looking at picking up a 10mm for woods/ranch carry. Glock & Sig are the 2 that have come to the top. Am I leaving any out that I should consider?

Personally, I'd look at RIA or some other 1911 style. Had the Glock, don't want another.

Have had a Glock 20 for years. No complaints, but if I were jonesing for another 10 mm I think the Sig would get the nod. Just my $.02.

Witness.

The Sig would be my last choice; if you want something set up for 10mm lite just get a 40 S&W.

My preference is either a Glock 20 with a heavy recoil spring, or full size 1911. The 1911 is easy to tune for real 10mm loads.

Had a couple older slab side Witness pistols, good solid guns but was never satisfied with magazine reliability.

Take a serious look at the EAA Witness. They have a number of different models, from a lightweight polymer that's cheap, to a match grade all steel/hard chrome pistol with 6" barrel. The Witness Elite Stock II is a bit pricey, but OMG do they shoot!!

S&W 1006 or 1076

Glock for woods if you get along with them.

What Gun Geek said. That Witness Elite Stock II 10 mm gun is amazing and like GG said, lord almighty does it shoot good!!!

Witness were falling apart in 10mm a few years back. Was it just a bad batch?

Link

I have the RIA and have been very happy with it. The glock will give you more capacity. I guess it comes down to which platform you like best, I do like my glocks also. The RIA is built like a tank!

Glock 20sf.

Just got into 10mm this year after looking at them for the last 20...very sorry I waited for so long.

Glock 40...has a 6" barrel and can be equipped with a dot sight or different sets of night sights. Have the TruGlo TFOs on mine and they are excellent. Replaced the original guiderod/springs with a Lone Wolf polished unit and it is excellent. Also picked up a 6" Lone Wolf .357 SIG barrel and it has been 100% reliable, very accurate and no recoil.

RIA Combat Commander. Bushingless heavy barrel. Very accurate. Has needed some break in as it was so tight but was feeding well the last outting.

PARA USA Elite Long Slide Hunter...one of the best 1911s I have owned. Very accurate, less recoil than either of the others. Unfortunately no longer made.

Another to take a close look at is the Kimber Stainless Target II. That is the next one on my list. Last year or so Brian Pearse did an extensive reloading review of the 10mm and used a Kimber...he had a lot of smokin' loads well over 1400 fps with AAC-9 and PowerPistol. I have one in .38 Super and is an excellent value for the money. BoMar style adjustable sights, fully supported chamber and a very good trigger... Shop around and you can find them in the $900 range.

The Glock is a nice gun for the money but the 20 and 40 are very big and boxy...I bought the 40 not or carry on my person but in a vehicle.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11107635/1

Bob

My witness has not failed yet. I have had many different 10s starting with the First run of Delta Elites and even had a Bren for awhile until some guy wanted way worse than I did.

Have a Glock 29 sf. . Have not had any problems with it.. Not as big as other 10mm. Little easier to carry. Happy with it.

I have a Sig P220 Elite SAO. Big honking heavy duty pistol. Good sights and nice accuracy. The minuses are, the grips really don't fit me, and there's limited aftermarket selection. The magazine spring is ludicrously stiff and the mag only holds 8 rounds. And Sig's the only game in town for mags.



One of these days I may sell it and a couple of the others, then buy a really good 10mm, like a Dan Wesson Silverback, or a Nighthawk.

Glock 20SF for a hard use beater woods ATV/truck/horse/canoe gun. For more sedate surroundings and use take your pick.

I've seen quite a few problems with the poly Witness guns but almost none with the steel ones. They're pretty heavy but I think they're nice, well built pistols.

I put a ton of sights and knick knacks on the Glock 10s for customers and the 40 has been growing on me like the 20 never did. They're very popular and have lots of aftermarket stuff for you to tinker with.

I have a 1006 S&W, only 10mm I've ever owned. It's a battleship and built like a tank, I'm really unsure if a guy could wear one out shooting sane loads. They are nice pistols if you can get past the weight and mine is very accurate. Unfortunately the magazines are dried up and bringing about $100 a piece and the guns themselves are knocking on a grand when you can find one. I sure enjoy mine and look forward to working up some good loads and killing some hogs once I get moved and life slows down a little.

I always had a distaste for the 10mm but after owning one and messing with it I have really warmed up to the cartridge. Just have to take it for what it is and use it sensibly instead of attempting to make it a 44 magnum.

I like these - a lot.

^^^This^^^

Another option is a S&W 610

I've had several G20's and like them. Pick up a .40 S&W conversion barrel and run easy to find fodder through them for cheaper blasting. It would be my choice for woods/ranch carry that you mentioned as the use.

Ran a G29 for a while but I preferred the G20 for shooting/using.

The 610/310 that RDW mentioned is fun as well and allows the dual 10mm/.40 usage.

The 5" 610 that I owned would actually give higher velocity than 3 different 5" 1911's I owned, in a comparison test.

To make it simple

If you want the best, get the Witness Elite Stock II, III, or Hunter.

If you want the best value, get the Glock.

No votes for the Delta?

Just picked up a used G20 last weekend. We have only put a couple boxes of 180 and 200 gr. factory loads through it (Winchester and HSM) but so far am loving it. Less recoil than I was expecting and it is spot on accurate.

If the weight of the big azz Sig doesn't bother you, you should also consider the S&W 1006 or delta elite...

Delta wins style points. I wish they made one in XSE configuration. They cannot handle the top loads like a Glock or Smith, but they can handle pretty stout loads.

The Deltas are usually good pistols, though I did have an old one from the 1980's that had several problems. I've worked with four different Deltas, and all were 100% reliable. The new ones Colt is making are excellent.

If you don't push the loads, the Deltas may be the least fussy 10mm's out there. The non-ramped barrels seem to me less fussy than the ramped barrel guns. Those guns, like the Kimber and most others, have better case support, but may need a little tuning to get them to feed reliably.

I haven't played with the newer Deltas, but my late 80's stainless has run flawlessly for untold thousands of rounds.

I'm quite sure most of the stories of their "problems" are due to people trying to make .41 magnums of them. I of course have never <cough> been guilty of that myself.

Witness.

Curious to know purpose for 10mm as ranch carry handgun? Are you talking as a sidearm while working chores on the ranch, while doubling as a sidearm to have handy while in the woods?? I tend to think of durable truck and belt guns that get beat up, do not get in the way, are used as a tool, and are often no more than shotguns, carbines, 22s, 38/357s, and such. On the other hand, in the context of a hunting handgun, a 10mm makes more sense, and I'd not be too worried if it had a longer barrel, being it would not be something I'd carry on a belt while fencing, etc.

If for the former, I'd never consider something like an EAA import, Delta or Sig....if it had to be 10mm, it would be something not too big and would be GLOCK.

If for the later, I'd still likely never consider something like an EAA import, Delta, or Sig.....if it had to be 10mm, I'd look at the new GLOCK G40 Gen4 MOS. For a hunting 10mm, likely the better choice out of the bunch.

Another vote for the Witness and my suggestion would be a Hunter, Limited or Stock 2.

I had problems with all of my 10mm Witness magazines. That was my main reason for selling my last one and going with the Glock - the Glock mags just plain work.

Oddly enough I never had issues with the Witness 45 ACP mags, but the 10's couldn't be loaded to full capacity if you wanted reliable function. Maybe they've fixed that now?

I liked the Witness pistols, but a good pistol with junk mags is pretty worthless, IMO.

I went with a Delta because it's imperative I always look good.

Be sure you want a 10 and not the 40.

Factory ammo can be quite a letdown.





Dave

I would expect nothing less.

That Delta is a fine looking pistol.

G20.

If it's a hard use sidearm, the G20 is nigh impossible to beat.

I've looked at most all options out there and expect I'll go with the Glock 20 as there are lots of aftermarket mods I can do and it's likely the best value compared to the rest.
Thanks to all for your input. It was very helpful.

Glad to enable. Lol.

^^Like this! How do you like the subsonic performance?

I've got the Glock 21, which is the same gun, only different chambering than the 20. Can't beat it for weight/capacity/power ratios, not to mention reliability. Naturally, a single action will have a slightly better trigger pull, but the Glock trigger, once correctly learned, isn't as far behind a 1911 type trigger pull as you might think.

Ok, why would anyone make a subsonic 10mm round? Thats like buying a 300 UltaMag and going subsonic. Might as well get a 300 Whisper. If you want subsonic, go with 40 S&W. Why waste all that powder room? Maybe if you could cram a 300gr bullet in the 10mm it might make some sense but a 180 can be pushed to over 1300 fps?

I don't think they have (Winchester) has made those for years. More of a photo prop for a collectible box, imho. That more than likely was in the days before the 40 or at its infancy. Maybe EE will elaborate, I don't want to step on any toes.

Law enforcement and home/self defense usage, as the early full-power 10s were reported to be overpowered for control and penetration.

The subsonic stuff works well; hits hard, penetrates plenty for self-defense use, and if you happen to have it as a nightstand gun, it isn't NEARLY as deafening inside, nor would it have the potential to rip through walls as readily as the full house stuff.

The flexibility of the 10 is another great attribute; like it is for the .357. Think of the subsonic stuff as .38s in a .357.

Ok, that makes sense. I guess I think more towards maximizing penetration with my 10mm since I use it mostly for hunting and big animal defense. I have a standard Witness and it is a great gun although it took some work to get the trigger smoothed out and I added heavier hammer and recoil springs for the heavy ammo like Underwood and Buffalo Bore. It is built like a tank but a bit on the heavy side.... although most 10mms are heavy except for the Glocks.

Yep, like using 158 hardcast or controlled expansion loads pushed HARD in a .357 for similar situations, but having milder .357s or even .38s on deck for different needs. The 10 covers a LOT of bases.

The "For Law Enforcement Use Only" label explains all. I think it would have been just the ticket for the MP5/10 back when the FBI was issuing 10mm's.

It was. Viking is right. Those were shot up back in the eighties and reloaded. They were probably shot in a 1006 which the FBI's issue weapon was designed from. The 40 wasn't available, so you went with downloaded 10's. I took that pic about a year ago, IIRC and that was the prettiest ammo box I could find.

For downloaded 10's, I just shoot my 40 now.

I recently picked up a G20 and I really enjoy shooting and carrying it. My only advice would be to consider the cost of an aftermarket barrel into your purchase price, especially if you reload. The factory chamber in mine was hard on brass. With the Lonewolf barrel, I am on the fourth reload on some of my brass. I also busted an extractor, but that was easily replaced with a better one.

10 picks up so much velocity between 5 and 6 inches that a 6-inch barrel is imperative, in my mind. You can get a factory Glock 6-in barrel to use with your G20, or just get a G40 in the first place. Plenty of relatively inexpensive, low round count G20s on GB.

The way I see it, the Glock is the only 10mm that makes sense. Sigs are single stack and silly expensive, and you have to go to a custom barrel maker to get a longer barrel. EAA has asterisks all over its reliability history. 1911s can be good, but the good ones are ruhdiculously expensive. Anything else is hard to find. Unfortunately, I can't stand the feel of a G20.

I researched the heck out of 10mm and ended up buying a revolver. Cheaper ammo for plinking and practice, powerful loads for when you need it cost about the same as the least expensive 10mm rounds, great triggers, nicer to carry, prettier to look at.

Love my witness

That Witness looks very nice! I have mixed feelings about 10mm. I almost liked my G20, even though the first time I fired it I had a (Double Tap) round blow just above the "rim" and cause some damage to the gun, more to my nerves. That was with a Lone Wolf barrel, and I had no such problems after I switched to a 6" Glock barrel, with heavier recoil spring and stainless rod. Mainly, I feel the 10mm is a round to be careful with. Have to watch for bullet setback in any cartridge, of course, but more especially with 10mm. When things go well, it is definitely great in power and accuracy. I'd like to try another, but will likely go with a 1911 type. The revolver idea sounds good, but I have revolvers chambered for what I feel are better revolver rounds for my use.

I agree, the Glock has a good track record of standing up to the battering of the higher pressure full loads, the others, not so much, hence the reliability complaints from those who purchased the pistols with the intent of running full power loads as a matter of routine. If for hunting, maximizing this with a longer barrel makes good sense, in more ways than just velocity.

If mostly plinking, shooting the lower pressure loads, with high pressure full loads being the exception, not the rule, all the pistols noted could be reliable and a good choice. However, I still believe EAA issues a warning from the engineers of that pistol to avoid top end loads, such as +P in the 45 and high velocity loads in the 10, so this may put into question any use of top end hunting loads in that platform.

Best

Had this one built awhile back; my old armorer buddy from AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) days did the work. Longer barrel is the way to go.
Bob

Nice looking gun. What is the build?

4ager is quite correct in that the flexibility of the 10 is another of it's great attributes. Mine, a 1006 Smith, handles mid range/sub sonic loads just as reliably as it does the full power stuff. Even shoots them in almost the same group at 25 yds.
Another thing that can come as a surprise is how powerful it is with nothing like the blast and recoil of a similar size .357 Revolver. Doesn't have the clylinder gap of a revolver and uses alot less powder than a full power .357 load. On top of that, I never seen a .357 that would put .38 Special, even the +P loads, into anything like the zero for a full power .357 load.
I've also noted that with 200 gr. wide flat point cast bullets doing about 1050 or a bit more, it out penetrates my .44 Magnum shooting full power 240 gr. XTP bullets. Lots of good things can be had from a 10mm. E

The only add on I employed on the witness.


http://www.sprinco.com/recoil.html

Pleasure to shoot

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7978473/Food_for_Thought#Post7978473

And if you do go 10mm, Bob's advice regarding barrel length is solid.




Dave

It's shockingly similar to the 40 S&W.




Dave

RIA has a 10mm Longside that is very reasonably priced and has a long dust cover rail like Bob's custom gun above. I have one of their 4.25" Commander length guns and it is very tight and accurate. All the other 1911 long slide 10mms start at $2K and work up...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=554872985

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=554810979

Bob

...above said....anyone know anything about these?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=554331692

I handled one of the Dan Wesson Silverbacks in 10mm today. Needs different grips for me, but otherwise is a very nicely finished 1911.

I like the old Smiths pretty well.

Found answer to the above question on the Iver Johnson 1911s...

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261939

...so is the jury still out or are you going to sell the others and buy this one good 1911...

Bob

I bought a Colt Delta Elite back in about 1989-1990 ?

Sure wish I still had it....

Hill Country Handguns in TX; they use their own frames and slides (provided by STI, I think). My gun shoots ragged, one-hole machine rest groups at 50 yards (what I expect from a gunsmith who built bullseye guns for a living). I'm killing all kinds of schitt with it.
Bob



25 yards, offhand

Sweet looking outfit, RGK. That is a nice one for sure.

The jury is still out.

Mostly because I realized I need to do something about a certain fussy 300 Weatherby. Either rebarrel it or replace it.

Thanks for the reply. Very nice 10.

Sell the SOB.

Gonna finish floating the barrel. Try some 155 "skinners" & long Accubombs with fistfuls of Reloader 2X. Sprinkle Alaskan holy venom on it, and determine if my shoulder lasts long enough to see how it shoots. There after...

Sweet Jesus! I'm sure they are nice but you could buy 4 Kimbers or 7 Glocks for that price!

That's sweet. Nice pistol and some good shooting too. Impressed and mildly jealous on all accounts.

Maybe I'm missing something...what did I pay for the 10mm?
Bob

i understand these are pretty well built, the bruin:
dan wesson/cz
http://cz-usa.com/product/dw-bruin/

They list for $4300 on their website.

[/quote] They list for $4300 on their website. [/quote]

Let's just say mine is on a long-term loan. I'm the testing-dude. So far, it's been a killing machine that hasn't malfunctioned when it was soaked and muddy. And it groups like my Army-accurized .45s.
Bob

Very cool pistol RGK.

Thanks! How did you escape from the Winchester Forum?
Bob

You can get a longslide Nighthawk 10mm for less

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=555188896

True, but it won't be as good.
Bob

Good information and I appreciate everyone's advice and ideas. Its really helpful.

I'll stick with my garden variety Glock 20, thanks.

Anyone other than me shooting 40 out of their stock G20?

Nope. .40s out of the 20 work just fine.

Nice buck! I think, in talking about what's "better", we forget that the guy behind the pistola is way more important. Obviously your Glock worked, and worked well.
Bob

I run a lot of 40's in the G20 with a conversion barrel. Have run a few in the factory barrel just to see and it worked fine, but I can't speak to long term.

Since we are talking 10s....what is everyone using for loads?

I've been impressed with PMC Bronze 170gr. JHPs. The deer above was taken with that load. It's only standard velocity but accuracy has been fantastic from my gun.

I like Winchester 175gr. Silvertips too, when I can find them.

Winchester 175 grain SilverTip JHPs.

13 grains of 2400 under 180 grain XTP's works for me. 22# recoil spring and steel guide rod.

RDW--Are you shooting 40s out of the 10 barrel? How does it headspace if so?

I believe the design is to headspace off the case mouth. Since the extractor holds the case against the breech face, I decided to give it a shot, it worked fine.

There are a number of threads and other articles on shooting the 40 out of the 10, I would suggest others research and decide if they want to do the same.

In my opinion, since the extractor holds the case against the breech face it really does not headspace on the case mouth and the space between case mouth and lands is freebore.

Yup, I do it frequently.

I've posted about this at length in the past on other forums; it's fine in a Glock 20 or 29, but not a good idea in other types of pistols, like the 1911, Witness, etc.

The difference is in the amount the firing pin protrudes past the breech, and the possibility of the round jumping in front of the extractor. On a 1911, the firing pin will still set off that round, resulting in some unnerving "pressure signs" on the fired case. On a Glock, the striker won't reach a round in front of the extractor, so it either works safely, or not at all. Along with that though, I've never had a round jump in front of the extractor on a Glock 20, but have experienced it with 1911 and Witness pistols.

I also use 40 S&W brass for some 10mm loads, if the bullets are long enough (180gr+ for the most part). Pressure is actually reduced compared to the same loads in 10mm brass, because of the reduced neck tension.

I used to be a 1911/45 or nothing guy but that changed with the 20SF and Gen 4 allowing me to get my stubs around the 2x4 grip. It's nice to have the 10mm short option without a second barrel. I would not mind playing with the 9x25 but I don't like chasing my 10mm brass much less unobotanium stuff.

The G20 barrel options made it an easy choice for me and I will keep an eye out for a Nightguard too.

I'll vote for the Delta. I have a 20 and a Delta but I prefer the Delta.

Another vote for the Delta.


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