remingtons.?
theres a so called gun smith here in town that says they wont shot as tight as groups as remingtons,can someone prove him wrong to me to encourage me more with my winchester please..thanks

Personal prefferences. I have a 1965 built pushfeed model 70 in .270 that is one of the most accurate rifles I own, even those with match grade barrels on them. It makes me laugh that it shoots so good.

The Remington 725,721, and 700 we designed to reduce production costs, and while they are generally accurate, they are by no means all more accurate. Some are great and some are not. Remingtions are easy to true up and have lots of aftermarket support.

I prefer CRF on my hunting rifles and as such I do not hunt with Remington 700s or Sakos, I have hunted with my pushfeed model 70 but that is only because it belonged to my grandfather. I've had them buy my personal preference always leads me back to mausers.

Factory or Handloads, factory is hit and miss, with handloads i can make a 710 out shoot a 700 if i have good glass. Les

I have had some very accurate push feed Winchesters.I have a Classic Feather Weight 6.5X55 that easily shoots 1 to 1 1/4" groups and I really have not tried to get its full potential yet.Any Rifle can be made to shoot well if you take the time to find out what it likes. My 3 cents Huntz

At times, the theory of accuracy gets absolutely ridiculous......

Just send me a PM with a FAX number, and I'll forward to you some targets that I have produced with various rifles in 270 Win., 300 Win., 338 Win., 375H&H, and 416 Rem. Mag. rifles that were built on Model 70 actions, and by all means take them to your riflesmith and get his reaction.

I think you'll find that, in practical terms, for a hunting-weight rifle, that a Model 70 shoots just as well the Model 700, and it feeds and otherwise functions much better. If you're hunting pocket gophers, statistical theories, or benchrest titles then the Model 700 holds a slight edge. But if you look at the historical record of the Model 70 in the arena of high-power shooting, including the prestigious 1,000 Wimbleton title, then you'll see that the Model 70 is at least accurate enough to shoot barn walls with when you're shooting from the inside out through the north stall..............

Quite honestly, I've owned some 90 Remington 700s over the years, and well over 100 Model 70s, and I've had many precise, accuracy-oriented hunting rifles built on both actions, including "famous-maker" 'beanfield' rifles, Coues deer rifles, etc., etc. The real, fundamental, nuts & bolts accuracy differences had more to do with the quality of individual barrels and the skill of the makers themselves than it had to do with anything else, and in many cases, the Model 70s have shot better, because they were built by better makers.

Beware of this: Lots of so-called "custom" riflesmiths prefer Model 700s simply because they're easier to work on (sometimes, all they do is screw on a barrel and bolt the metalwork into a stock); the nuances of the Model 70 escape them, and so they masque their lack of skill and experience behind the old "benchrest-accuracy" hokum. So all too often, what gets pronounced is mostly theory, and the rest is ignorance and exaggeration.

I've listened to all of it before, been there, lived it, shot it, bought it, sold it, and got up and did it all over again, and end the end of the day, for my own use, I'll take a Model 70 that's been done-up by a top riflemaker any time...........

AD

yup I just picked up a m70XTR with a heavybarrel in 243. Put an older 3-9 nikon on it an started playin with loads.

5shots, 100yrds, scope on 8x
the flyer was my fault

Allenday hit the nail on the head.

Here's a pic of what a Model 70 can do at 100 yds.

My experience at the range was that the difference wasn't great, but on average the out of the box Remington 700 would group slightly tighter than a similar Winchester M70.

oh please...

you have nothing to worry about with your winchester, you'll be just fine.

And i bet the bolt handle won't even fall off or anything...

did i say that part out loud?

If your GUNSMITH says that,

Follow these steps

1. RUN
2. RUN AWAY
3. RUN AWAY VERY FAST
4. RUN AWAY VERY FAST AND DON'T LOOK BACK!

Wow, back to the drawing board with that load.

I believe this will cover it (albeit not as eloquently as Allen):

Model 70 target

And I need not worry about handles falling off, sheet metal extractors breaking and worst of all hideous looking "Hurst Shifter" unsafe safeties that fail on fire going off. jorge

ahh, I missed that bogger.


that explains a lot.

I was a "so called gynecologists" for a while when I was younger too.... but people caught on eventually....

Over forty years of hunting and shooting I have honestly lost count of the number of Model 70s and 700s I have owned and shot. Either one is capable of tremendous accuracy and both companies have produced a few lemons. I much prefer the Model 70 to the 700 but I do believe that out of the box the Remington might have a slight edge in accuracy. I always re-bed the action, float the barrel, and tune or replace the triggers. After that it is a toss up for accuracy. Probably the most accurate rifle I ever had was a Remington 40X in 30-06 back in the '70s. It was so accurate it was boring. Anyway, my preference for Winchester has little to do with accuracy and everything to do with the things others have already mentioned.

Based on what I see at the range, most folks aren't limited by the mechanical accuracy of their rifles...

You can take 90% of any factory out of the box Winchester or Remington give it a trigger job and handload it to sub MOA.

People waste a lot of money sending a sporting rifle to a rifle smith.

Invest in handloading.

A man's profession does not necessarily qualify hims as expert.

AGW

THANKS FOR ALL THE INPUT..

If I had a "gunsmith" tell me that, I'd be looking for a new "gunsmith".

Him full of schit.....

Ah the old Chevy vs. Ford argument.

FORD is way better.

unless your pushin a Chevy....

winny ammo is tighter tolerance - in fact it's pure magic (thinking of MD's article now).

Spot

Even though almost all of my guns are push-feed remingtons and WBY's and I only own a couple winny's I will still admit that the Classic/pre 64 style action is probably better for a hunting action.
That being said if your intention is for your rifle to be a hunting rifle I wouldn't be as concerned about accuracy as I would for it to have great features that make up a great hunting rifle. I know there is somewhat of a standard that we all want out guns to shoot but remember,
You don't shoot game with groups and you probably won't have bench rests in your tree stands, However you will have to aim your rifle and fire a round into a certain sized area that is dependent on the game being hunted. A rifle that shoots into .50MOA instead of 1.5MOA won't help as much as a stock that fits you well, a good trigger, good reasonable optics/sights, a cartridge that you can shoot well, and last but not least good field shooting ability.

I always pick my guns based on how well they fit me more than what brand or how accurate they are, and I think I am a better field shot for it.

Oh and every winchester that I have ever shot has shot really well, certainly better than would ever be required to hunt big game.

Win 70 SS Classic factory action/bbl, McMillan stock.
Handloaded 200gn TSX's. 100yds, 3 shots



Win 70 SS Classic Factory action/bbl, HS stock. Handloaded 260 Partitions. 100yds, 3 shots



Win 70 SS Classic, Factory action/bbl, McMillan stock. Handloaded 140gn TSX's. 100yds 3 shots.



I see a pattern emerging here.

I don't see much difference between the two in accuracy but I will give it to the Remingtons I guess. I have both. I would encourage you to consider the whole gun rather than simple accuracy.

The three Winchesters I use more than all the others will all group under 3 inche at 300 yards.

I much prefer the model 70 for hunting.

I wish Winchester had equivalents for Mountain Rifles and Wilderness rifles. Something on the order of the Montana.

I hate cleaning the bolt on a 700, the trigger wants to gum up and that two position safety that doesn't lock the bolt is silly.

My Featherweight in .308 Win will certainly shoot under an inch all day long with any ammo I feed it, including green box Core-Lokts! But it has been bedded and the trigger worked. One of the most accurate rifles I have ever fired was an friend's 700 ADL stainless barrel circa 1965 that was never touch by a smith.

The reality is that just about any rifle made today with modern technology will shoot far better than most hunters can. While I have no direct knowledge, I have been informed that the newer Savage rifles are incredibly accurate.

So if the source of you info is talking bench rest accuracy, I have no idea, but I do know nearly all tactical teams in the USA were using Remingtons. But for hunting applications, is bench rest accuracy really necessary???

Uh, No!
Probably the biggest most useless trend going in hunting rifles.

I really like Remington 700s...

But I love a Model 70 a LOT more!!!

But me and Rugers and Savages get along pretty well also these days....

The Model 70 is still the rifle model that I would keep if I was only allowed to have one....

Win M70 Featherweight 6.5x55.
140gr Partition
46.5gr DP 86
Lapua Brass
Fed 210M
2720fps
100 Yards

One of my hunting buddy's go-to deer rifle is a synthethic stainless M-70 with 24-inch barrel .30-06 that shoots 5-shot groups of 5/8 inch at 200 yards. He is a former Army armorer and SWAT team armorer, but he did't do much to it beyond a trigger job and pillar bedding.

I love my Remingtons.... I did have them all accurized by MGA.

They all shoot better than I do.

That said...

I don't see why Winchesters can't do just as well with the same work. This guy just loves Remingtons or rrefers to work on them.

As others have stated the need for benchrest accuracy is not there, even if average shooters could utilize it. But the rest of the anecdotal evidence means squat, particularly when talking about out-of-the-box accuracy.

If you are talking about untuned there is zero doubt in my mind the 700 is way ahead of the 70 in average accuracy. Once tuning starts all bets are off.

And I would make the bet more than one way... More 70s were bad out of the box than 700s; More 700s are exceptionally good out of the box than 70s were.

The pre-64s made at the very end were horrible as were several later phases of the 70. Remington has put out more than its share of lemons, but look at how many more units they sold.

There is plenty to like in both actions and taste dictates that, but for sheer OOTB accuracy I do not think it is even close...
art

I have a hard time fathoming how a gun can be too accurate, or striving for top notch accuracy being a bad thing. Me thinks the trends towards more accurate rifles might challenge folks to work on their skills until they match the equipment available.

Folks thinking shooting 1/2" off the bench equating to all the shooting skills they need is a different issue.