If and when you get a lemon, what is the etiquette for these? I have a friend at work that recently bought a new rifle and we just can't get the darn thing to shoot. We've checked all sorts of screws, bedded, floated, pressure pointed, re-loaded and just haven't gotten results of less than 2 MOA with anything and it doesn't sound like the factory will help him out either.

He doesn't want to sell it because he won't lie when someone asks him how it shoots. But, he doesn't want to keep it either. I suggested he send it to the smith for diagnosis and maybe get some truing/rebarreling/restocking done. This will be more expensive than selling and buying something else if he does it all at once.

What would you guys do?

Send it back to the maker?

Squeeze it - and get some juice!!

Just had to say that!!!

No seriously, if its under some sort of warranty - send it back. Or the idea of getting a good gunsmith to look at it is a good one. They usually have their "bag of tricks" to help find the problem.
7mm.

you do not say make or caliber. i have not experienced it . i have i few rems and few sakos. and two model 70s. i have a couple with krieger barrels they shoot small groups

What make/model? Base/rings/glass? Ammo?

What do the "groups" look like? Round patterns,strung vertical/horizontal?...................

Shoot it a lot more. Might come around with several hundred rounds down the bore...

The rifle is a Remington 700 Mountain Rifle DBM. It's been on the rack locally for a while. Its a 270 Winchester. He's had it since November. The scope rings are Leupold Dual Dovetails. I took the scope out and used a wheeler tool and found that they were straight. It was mounted by a local gunsmith. The scope was a Leupold Vari-X II. We changed out scopes to a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40 that I bought recently and it didn't seem to matter.

He has gone through several boxes of premium factory stuff and used his friend's press and reloading equipment to reload. The guy with the press is pretty sharp and was supervising/doing it for him. I looked at the reloads and they looked fine. The brass wasn't super clean looking, but I didn't think that should matter too much, right? I'm just assuming the guy helping him was as thorough and careful as he is with his own reloads which shoot pretty good.

I did my best to try and shim the metal out of the stock a bit to float the barrel and that seemed to help a little bit. It quit stringing so much. He took it home and after reading a magazine, whipped out some heavy-grit sandpaper and went to town on the barrel channel. It's now "floated" all the way down and he hasn't re-sealed the exposed wood yet. That didn't change much either.

Still has a factory trigger but it doesn't seem all that heavy. Its not any heavier than the way my M70 Featherweight felt out of the box. He shoots his FN Mauser 30-06 pretty well and I think I shoot well enough to know its not me with this rifle.

At first, the groups strung from low to high. The first shot is about 2 inches high at 100. Second is 3 1/2 inches high and the third is usually at least an inch higher. They seem to go from 12 to 1:30 on the target. The first cold-bore shot is always a lot lower than the next two.

I'd pull base/rings and gawk the fore fastener,to make sure she ain't deadheaded into the barrel shank proper. It'll make [bleep] squirrely. Further,I'd make sure them fasteners were bloody knuckle tight,as a minimum.

What boolit/powder/COAL? Kiss,find pressure and rock on.

The bedding is surely [bleep]. Dab bed the lug,don't be shimming anything nor anywhere.

Triggers adjust easily,but I'd bet the Farm and the county both...that it's a fastener,ammo and bedding goatphuck................

I feel bad because I didn't think he'd actually try to DIY some of the things we talked about. After the groups turned more triangle after the shims, he went home and took the shims out and "floated" it himself after reading a gun magazine article about free-floated barrels. Luckily, I think that the damage is going to be fixable. He hasn't messed with the area around the action.

I'll have him try a different set of bases/rings and see if that changes anything. The bolt doesn't bind and you can't feel the screw protruding down through the holes.

This is the ammo he's used:

Federal Fusion 130gr
Remington Core-Lokt 130gr
Winchester Supreme 140gr Accubond CT
Federal Premium 140gr Accubond
Federal Premium 130gr Sierra GK
Federal Premium 150gr Partition
Hornady 140gr SST Light Magnum

Handloads:

52-54gr H4350 with Sierra GameKing
57-60gr of H4831 with Sierra GameKing
57-60gr of H4831 with Nosler Partition
57-60gr of H4831 with Nosler Ballistic Tips

Dan,
just a few points:
1. was the barrel properly run in? Not running in a barrel properly can bugger it up good and properly. Personally, I do a one shot / clean - for the first 5 shots, then 3 shots / clean for the next 9 shots. I then shoot a 5 shot group and give the barrel a clean , making sure no copper is evident in the rifling.
That uses up around 1 box of ammo. Then I shoot my 3 shot groups - never allowing the barrel to heat up. If its too hot to touch, its too hot to shoot.
2. Strining of the shots - comes back to the barrel overheating - and obviously could be a bedding issue too.

Get it checked by a good "Smith.

Gus

You can't "feel" the fore fastener,it butts the barrel shank,not the receiver's interior where the bolt rides. Hint. If the rings meld the DD recess snugly,I'd not fret them,under the assumption they's tight.

Bed thusly. Catch the lug and let the tang ride where it do and flush the shim notions.



The SGK is your Huckleberry for making mechanical determinations...stay that course as a constant. Establish headspace,size in accords,trim to equal and kiss. What's the bore's status,in regards to fouling/cleaning? I can see that being a goatphuck too.

The rifle is sound. Toldjaso in advance............(grin)

I did tell him to watch the barrel heat. I like to shoot each shot from a cold barrel, especially with a light barreled gun. This is his first venture into being a "loony".

I'm not sure how he broke the barrel in. I fear he could have got it hot right out of the box.

1) Bullshitt

2) Bullshitt again. They've got her bound in a [bleep] knot and it CAN'T shoot.

Happy rifles shoot round groups and ain't afeared of heat,as per the crux herein..............

Thanks Stick. I might "borrow" his rifle for a little bit to see if I can see what he's really done with this thing.

May as well start with a CLEAN bore and start scratching [bleep] offa da list. Thus my moly penchant...because bores can't ever get weird..............

Hope it can be rectified and made to shoot .

Gus

It's all there,but just dog-knotted up,something wonderous.

It ain't often,that the loose nut behind the trigger,ain't to blame for rifles that "don't shoot".

Seen it a Jazillion times............

How does the crown look?

I have only owned one rifle that wouldn't shoot. It was a Ruger #1. Never could figure out why it sucked so bad. Sent that baby down the road, and I still get cold sweats thinking about it.

Because it's a #1 and due to how their fore ends are hung.

Yet another feather in the B-78's cap...............

First and last #1. I actually could care less, because I have no use for a single shot...

Oh DogCatcher.....dont say that!! I was thinking about a Ruger #1A in 7X57.....I have heard these babies either shoot .....or dont!

Gus

Mine was circa 1989, so maybe they got the bugs worked out by now? Oddly enough, I have several Ruger bolt guns, and they all shoot great.

I was poor back then, and didn't have another "varmint" gun, so i would use it anyway. Cannot count how many dogs I missed with that gun. Not to mention trying to reload when you called in a double, and missed the first! haha

Without the gun in hand it is hard to say and most everything has been covered but one other thing you might want to check is firing pin drag.

A gunsmith once told me "you can make a good gun shoot great, but you cannot make a bad gun shoot good."

billy goat gruff called it...

They ain't hangin' 'em differently now...but they should..................(grin)

Hi Dan, Just a few thoughts, I keep thinking about barrel harmonics, I would try packing up under the barrel at the forend tip with something temporary, a couple of business cards? and give it a go, (Fire one fouling shot before trying for groups) then sliding them back progressively a couple of inches at a time, it may help.(Cheap fix) If there is improvemnet I would then take it to my favourite gunsmith and have it recrowned. Also have him check the freebore and the barrel throat for undue wear. Failing that, I would go for a new barrel. I applaud your friends ethics but at some point the frustration will begin to make him hate the rifle and at best it will become a dust collector in his safe.

Hope this helps a bit
Bravo 27
A Friend DOWN UNDER

Shaking my head...............

It sounds like he could end up shooting this gun a lot with lots of fixes before he finds what's going on. The crown is a factory recessed crown like the ones found on the newer M700s.

I guess he could and I couldn't say it'd surprise me.

However,were he inclined,he could have her barking in no time,cut to the chase and live happily ever after...though it'd take all the "fun" outta it................(grin)

my 30-06 wood stock mtn rifle shoots 1/2 inch. after i put a very thin washer under the head of the front action screw.

I've seen me shorten screws and sources longer ones both,depending upon the application.

Have never not seen a non-bound up barreled action,not shoot better than a dog knotted one................(grin)

I have never seen a Rem 700 of any type that did not respond well to a bed/float job done properly.

...............Where`s Swampy?????????????

Learned my lesson years ago on a rifle that doesn't shoot. Don't chase it. It likely isn't worth it. The costs to get it to shoot isn't worth the small losses of going through a couple of three rifles to find one that does right out of the box.

Some people are one shot and done kind of people. Heck I was at the range once and this guy and practically his whole family were gloating at how anything he sees is going to die this year. He had at least a 4" group at 100 yards with something like 10 shots.

Send her down the line. Trade it in for a new rifle or put it in the paper.

Tom

Big Stick is right. I've done load development for lots of rifles for lots of friends. When I send them home with a target showing them what their rifle will do, they're happy. Then they go to the range, shoot, and call me and say, "This load isn't good, it won't shoot less than three inches at 100 yds." I've quit coddling them and trying to make them feel good. I just join them at the range and have them shoot their group and they say "See, that's terrible!" And I ask for the rifle, shoot the sub-MOA group that I found in load development, hand it back and say, "See, it's great. Go dryfire at the TV for a month before you shoot again, and then start with a brick of .22 LR." Much of "I have a friend who has a rifle that won't shoot" has much more to do with the friend than the friend's rifle.

and there it is!!

Browning A-Bolts are notorious for having long mounting screws that get into the bbl. threads. Didn't know Remingtons could have this problem but it can make a difference.

If it was an ammo deal, you would have found something that shoots by now.

You said it had a wood stock, make sure your buddy hasn't over torqued the action screws. This can bind it up or make it loose as the wood gives, depending on how far he has went with it.

Sounds like you have a bedding issue. Take it to a Smith and have it properly bedded and the bbl. free floated. Get him to check the bottom wood where the action screws go, if he has screwed that up, get the Smith to bed the bottom metal as well.

The more he keeps screwing with it, the more it's going to cost to get it fixed.

JM

Very easy to turn a 1/4 MOA Rifle into a 14 MOA rifle,with a screwdriver and in seconds.

It'd take no more than $3 worth of bedding,some fastener tightening and 5 boolits,to nip this rifle in the buds.

I LOVE buying used rifles that "don't shoot".................

I have yet to see a 700 new or used that I couldn't make shoot.

I've been told I was just lucky, but my track record with lotto tickets is proof otherwise.

Never shoot the donor......................(grin)

That's the truth!

Ha, maybe I can get him to sell it to me cheap then!

A test I use to look for a stressed barreled action is to mount a bore sighter and be careful to not affect any further movement. Note the crosshair coordinates and then loosen ones action screws to completely relax the action. Recheck the coordinates, if they have changed, the action is being stressed by ones stock.

I had a Weatherby MkV with a stock that did a lot of moving in our dry environment. Even though the barrel was floated, that test revealed the action was stressed. Bedded the action fore and aft and one sees no movement between a free standing barreled action and one torqued tightly into the stock. Shoots a whole lot better too.

Dan maybe you can have him sell it and buy a Winchester FW

Ha, maybe I can get him to sell it to me cheap then!

Dan:
I've never owned a Remington but have and use .270 Wins. Everybody can get an occasional lemon, even me. From what I've seen over the years is that Rems. are generally reliable and accurate. Having written that, I'd definitely tell your friend to not even think of chasing the problem by sinking lottsa bucks into it. Eat it and be honest when/if he sells it. I've been that route before & it ain't fun. Search the boards here & other places about the "fun" I had with my Kimber Montana.
Anyway, in an effort to help, I doubt I can add much to what's been written already. I would be sure the action screws are torqued to specs - use a torque wrench here and in proper sequence. Check the crown and bedding. I assume the barrel doesn't touch where it shouldn't. As suggested above, place some shim material under the forearm and gradually move it rearwards. Be certain the bore is clean - ie., no copper fouling and wait between shots for the barrel to cool down.
In my current .270 WSM, a Win. Extreme Weather, I tried a box of Federal Vital-Shok 150 gr. ammo just to get a baseline to work from. Accuracy was disapointing as was velocity. I think I'd try a Sierra bullet in your favorite weight along with the recommended, ACCURATE powder listed in the Sierra book. Usually, I begin work on a new rifle that way and my attitude is that if it won't shoot a Sierra, at least fairly well, then I've got a problem. This is what I did with my .270 WSM and after some minor work, it looks as if the rifle is a keeper. I shoulda sold the Kimber long ago - I'd have a lot more hair now.
Bench technique - don't know what you or your friend use for rests but I'd recommend a bunny ears rear bag and a good, solid front rest and don't move/remove the rifle between shots.
The bootom line however, IMHO, is don't go chasing it - dump it & take your losses. Good luck!!
Bear in Fairbanks

+1 on Bear's post (above).

You can only do /tolerate so much!!

7mm

I didn't know what his bench technique was like until we went to my range. We set fore-end on a Caldwell front-rest. We are careful to use the same position each time. We used a bunny bag on the back end of the stock. The gun was steady. We shot other rifles and they shot fine.

I'm thinking we're going ot have it bedded. If that doesn't work, he'll probably sell it.

Listen to Stick...His fix is the easiest one posted so far and it's the one that will work. I've fixed rifles that "won't shoot" this way a few times myself. Bed the lug, make sure everything's tight, pick one good bullet and stick with it, kiss the lands, find your powder charge, then go shoot the [bleep] out of it.

I ain't guessin'.................

I've had very little luck making a real booger into a gem, and every time I've tried, I have regretted the effort. My personal rule is shoot them, and if I can't make 'em at least "decent" with handload, cut 'em up or sell 'em.

Cite the 700's,so plagued..................(grin)

I'm a subscriber.

You're learnin'.................(grin)

Yeah, well...I gotta make most mistakes on my on, but seldom make them twice.

Just before the season started ,I bought a 270 MTN rifle and a 280 Mtn Rifle. I had to tweak both of them. My technique is simple -----free float, Open the action screw holes through the stock up to be sure its not riding the screws, adjust the trigger to 2.5 to 3.0 lbs, and recrown with a manson crowning tool that uses the mandrel inside the barrel to center the crown with the bore. Reseal the wood and make sure the recoil lug is against the stock well. I didn't have to glass bed either one to get 1.5 t0 2.0 inch groups at 300 yards ---------3 shots spaced out to allow the barrel to cool. Reloads with Sierra game kings !!!

Admit it, the .280 leaves the .270 in the dust. Huh?

Beyond the simple stuff, I'll go a bedding job, recrown and trigger work on one, but if that don't fix it or it's picky about what it shoots, I ain't [bleep]' with it anymore.

IMO, Life is too short to chase a [bleep] up gun when it gets beyond a certain point. Luckily, I've yet to be forced to I abandon one. Most times they can be fixed relatively easy.

JM

I've yet to cuss a 700...though I'm still tryin'..............(grin)

I am not sure but I think what Stick is trying to say here - ("I'd pull base/rings and gawk the fore fastener,to make sure she ain't deadheaded into the barrel shank proper.")-
is to remove the screws from the front base and make sure that it isn't hitting the barrel threads. You can check this by using a magic marker on the bottom of the screw, tighten it down and then take it back out to see if there are any marks on the bottom of the screw. If so shorten the screw until it is no longer hitting. It is not an uncommon occurance to have the bottom of the screw hit the barrel threads.

If the front base screw is hitting the barrel threads it may feel tight but in reality you only have the rear screw holding the front base. What happens then is that the front base can move under recoil and you scope can end up pointing in a slightly different direction after each shot.

2nd thought - I had a Rem 700 in 260 that had very poor accuracy, I went through all of the mechanical steps, and load steps in an attempt to improve it. It never got better so I took to a good friend who just happens to be a benchrest 'smith to have him look it over, he pulled the barrel and the barrel threads were cut so undersize that as soon as the barrel was no longer touching the face of the receiver you could literally rattle the barrel in the receiver. He squared the face of the receiver, squared the barrel shank so that the receiver and barrel shank mated squarely and put some up-pressure on the barrel at the end of it where the Remington bumps are and this made it into about an inch and one-half shooter. At that point I stopped since the only option left was a re-barrel job.

Personally I would not go through with that again, I would just take it to the local Scheel's, Cabela's, or some other dealer and make a trade for another rifle.

drover

Had a pard that bought a used custom .280 AI from a fella once.

He called me and said that it wouldn't shoot better than a couple of inches @ 100.

Went out the next day and got ready to shoot the rifle and looked at his ammo. All kinds of different bullets and the cases were .280 Rem.

I asked where he got it and he said from the fella that sold him the rifle.

I told him I think you got loads he was using to fire form brass. He said, "Yeah, he told me he was going to give me some".

Some folks are beyond help.

Laffin'.

Most of my friends never sell a gun. I'm just the opposite. If it ain't special, I don't have a use for it. Then they wonder why I'm a good shot. It ain't me.

It's entertaining watching someone that won't part with a dud for sentimental reasons complain about the poor accuracy everytime they shoot the rifle.

You know the speech they are going to give before the first shot is fired.

JM

Just what are all these "duds",you boys keep getting?....................

The only bad one that cost me was a Browning that didn't shoot real well. Found the front base screws had dug a hole in the bbl. threads.

Went to rebarrel it and it was a phookin' nightmare to remove. Cost me more in labor than it was worth, but it's a shooter now....

I'll never waste my time and money if I ever run into that again. Browning's use a [bleep] up fine thread that makes the problem 4x worse than normal.

Well no [bleep]...it's a Browning.................

Man, I've owned alot of 'em and they have shot better than most and usually ain't picky about what you feed 'em either.

Same crap every year. They want me to shoot their rifles for them, to make sure they're "sighted in". I know some of them will never shoot well, either the rifle or the $30 scope. I hate doing it, 'cause I know their rifles by now, and pray that the first shot will be close so that they'll be content. Most of them are old guys with the attitude that "this is an accurate rifle, it cost a lot of money.".

Most what?

Brown Besses?............

Remingtons, Connecticut Winnies, and Woogers.

Define "shoots good" and how them determinations is made.............

You ought to come sight in My FIL's rifle. "Just shoot it at 25 and that'll be good."

"That makes it dead on @ 100...."

Every year that rifle is shooting all over the place. He has a 35 yr. old leupold scope that has more dents than a dirt track car after a sat. night main event.

Stick, I've done the Dab and seen it work. You go 10/10ths tight on the screws during the cure?

The A-Bolts and X-Bolts I own in factory trim will shoot sub moa @ 100, 200 and 300 if I do my part.

A 400-500 they open up a bit, but will stay well under 2 moa, but that's probably me eyes. Now I've shot a boat load of stock Remmies, Woogers and older Model 70's at the same range off the same bench. (owned by Wade Craig who owned the gun shop where I worked in High school, College and after I gradumated).

IME, Brownings (A-Bolts) were consistently more accurate than the Remmies, and Model 70's. At that time Ruger was outsourcing their barrels and a good slug gun could have given them a run.

How these rifles would have shot once they were broken in? I don't know. But new and untouched, the Brownings did better.

JM

When making up a dab layup,wet with SteelBed,I certainly leave some Oooomph remaining on the fasteners. Key is to ascertain action ride height prior,denote it and repeat to it...when allowing to dry. If ADL,I only run the fore and aft fasteners,when laying one up in that manner.

If a stock has a speed bump in the fore end,I leave it there(unless it's seriously henshitt,in regards to inlet) and use it to orient ride height with the tang. Then after everything is dry,I'll perhaps dabble it.

That depends upon the construction of the stock proper and a host of other variables. I'm a fan of FL Neutral bedding and when I float,I'm assuredly not [bleep] around.

[bleep] or get off the pot in that regard...or you'll get bit................

I follow, on both the ride height and the float clearance.

Curiously enough,I've had 30+ Ruger boltguns and have yet to see a "bad" one. Spanning Round Tops to S/S Varminters and all stops in between.

Could never/still can't suffer a Browning,that ain't Sako based................

I like the older FN's as well. Lots of folks ain't much on A-Bolts but they have served me well.

The Model 81 and B-78 are two of my favorites and the old Auto 5's are still the only shotguns I shoot.

In addition to Stick's advice, I'd check that when the bolt is closed, metal to metal, it doesn't touch the stock..

Also, I'd quit switching ammo at this point...I 'd buy a box of plain jane Federal 130grns and watch how the groups respond as the changes are made...

I'd not be worried about the groups shrinking to iddy biddy one holers although that would be nice!. Rather I'd watch for them to stop stringing or throwing add shots and start producing consistant round or triangular groups at the same POI..In all likelihood the groups will close down a bit as well, but once you have got rid of the vices and start getting consistancy, then a load development will pay dividends..

Out of couriosity, if you have a similar rifle ie a 30-06 or .270, thats proven to be consistant and accurate, get your friend to have a few shots with that and see if he can actually shoot...Also, all the bedding fixes in the world won't help if the scope is a piece of junk that doesn't hold zero...

Resisting as best I can. Scored a donor for my 7-08AI build, a 700 SPS Varmint in 308. The 308 part is making it a little easier to resist....... (grin)

I'll never understand folks going out of their way,to make easy [bleep] difficult...................

I got some Nesika Bay,Mauser, Remington action custom rifles,with Krieger,Shilen,Douglas and etc. barrels and I have some plain old ,out of the box,Remington rifles that I have tinkered with and made to shoot. I believe that Remington rifles are easy to make shoot. I use them more than any other. I have gotten in a habit of sitting in the corner of a shooting house,so I can prop my elbow in the side window and the rifle on the front window ledge to make a shot. In the woods off 20' lean ups, I prop on my knee and the rail. At 66 years old I use what I can,I have layed down and shot from that position. I prefer a rifle that will shoot very tight off the bench to help make up for age. When I shot sihouette off hand zero's were a couple of inches different from Bench zero. We all have preferences and what ever works for you ,do it. Making a rifle shoot and loading for it is what I do for fun. I shoot alot,and I mean alot mostly at 300 yards. We don't Golf or Fish so we shoot paper targets or deer targets at 300 plus and call our shots, an eye ball shot or in the ear is a 10 point bonus but you have to call it. You need a rifle that will shoot 1 to 11/2" at 300 for that. If you miss the called shot ,take away 10 points. Old folks can shoot even with a bad heart, but they can't walk the mountains like they used to.

I've more than one rifle,of more than one make.

None of 'em can shine,when torqued horribly,fraught with fastener woes or with screws deadheading their barrel shanks. Then there's bases/rings/glass and fodder.

I'm into cutting to the chase and kicking Fluff to the side...because results interest me...............

You want to see what happens, make an indicator base out of a front scope mount base, span the action and zero then loosen and tighten screws, will show you right now about your rifles bedding. Can also be turned around and zeroed up on the barrel and repeat Russ

Dab bed,orient to tang and pad...you are there,as it's IMPOSSIBLE to torque anything askew.

Correct assembly of the box to the receiver and follower to same,has been knowed to help the equation too.(grin)

From there it's a mechanical checklist on all fasteners,rolling good glass and feeding it good fodder.

Really takes some doing to botch a rifle,but some folk's hearts are into doing just that......................

Hoping it's gonna be good.

Quit teasing...............(grin)

Stick,

Do you tape the bottom and front of the lug off before bedding so only the "back" is a good solid contact?

Or do you bed so its touching all round and rely on the release agent to get it out?

Regards,

Peter

The last thing I want,is a lose lug. The WHOLE point of bedding is to reduce tolerances,not add them.

Snug lugs is where it's at................

Cheers, I shall remember that...thus far I have done it the other way and got decent results, but I am open minded enough to try other ways if it looks worth pursuing...

Old Injun' Trick...............