OK,

Sadly, I sold off all my guns 5 years ago. I have been rebuilding my rifle stable for a couple years now. I came across a great deal on a near-new 2006 minted 1895 Marlin 444 with fantastic wood. I figured it would be great for timber hunting Elk.

I'm fairly savvy on rifles/ballistics and I certainly have my personal preferences. I knew that the 444 was not the same as my previous 45-70 when I bought it. However, this is my first 444. I've "Googled" around a bit to find out about safe 270-300gr. max loads. It seems there is still debate on what a generally accepted safe max load for the 444 is. Some people swear the Marlin action is dog [bleep] and must not be trusted and others claim some ridiculously high velocities. Considering this gun is a <150yd shooter for my applications, I have decided not to run "crazy hot" loads at all.

So, to my question: How many of you here have actual experience with this caliber from a 20" barrel on Elk? I can read energy numbers the same as anyone else. I am very interested in hearing from people with hands on experience with this caliber/bullet combo on Elk. I know it is plenty for Deer and arguably not enough for Browns, but is it formidable on quartering shots within 150 yards? All the evidence suggests yes but I am really hunting for opinions from people that have used it on Elk.

Thanks in advance.

Try www.marlinowners.com Lots of good info there.

I can push a 270gr Gold Dot 2200fps with my M444.That should get er done.
Mine is an old one 1970 with the 24in barrel. No issues,the 300gr don't shoot as well and pound the pee out of you.

colorado bob: Thanks for the link. Great site on the Marlin. Thx

bh444: Have you used this load on an Elk or similar? If so, what were the shooting conditions? Broadside? Quarter forward/away/rear? BTW, how many grains of Gold Dot?

Fifth, Gold Dot is the bullet weight @ 270 gns.

Gunner

I have a 444P, the one with the 18 1/2" ported barrel, and have killed a couple of elk (a cow and a calf) with 300 grain hard cast WFNGC from Cast Performance with H332. The cow was about 150-175 yards away. The bullet penetrated both lungs but did not break any shoulder bones. She entered the timber before I could shoot again, but I found her very dead within 50 yards of where she was hit. The calf was shot at a downhill angle at about 65 yards. I hit him a little high breaking the spine, which required a follow-up shot when I got up to him. This load is about 95% of maximum.

OK, that makes more sense. I didn't realize he was talking about the bullet. Is that the same thing as these Speer Uni-Cor I have?

gomerdog: Was the shot on the calf a through and through or did the spine stop it?

Possibly, the uni-cores are an earlier version of the hunting gold dots, they will serve You well, and so will Rl-7 for powder and a CCI-250 mag primer to get it all moving.

Gunner

Fifth,

WELCOME to 24hrcf! Looks like you are getting good intel here. Though I have not yet owned one, I have long admired and wished for a 444. If ever I come across one in pre-safety form with the pistol grip style stock for a good deal kinda price it will have to come home with me.

Have not, obviously, shot an elk with one, but would not be afraid at all to give it a go. I have heard good things about the Hornaday 265's but from me that is just hearsay. Good luck and good hunting. MARK

safariman: Thank you for the welcome. I don't know all there is to know about Marlins. I grew up with a 39A 22LR and a Model 60. I've always had a soft spot for Marlins. Even though I knew very little about the 444 cartridge at the time, I couldn't pass up this 1895 when I found it. The wood looks like a Grade 2 to me with flawless bluing. Beautiful gun. Either way, the gun will be heading into the woods with me. I just don't know how well the caliber/weight will penetrate on less than optimal shooting opportunities. I had/have quite extensive hunting experience with the 45-70. I now need to catch up with this 444. Thanks again for the welcome.

No. Uni-Cors are jacketed, but good bullets in my opinion. I was using a lead alloy cast very hard, acting more like a solid.

The bullet penetrated completely. That's what hardcast bullets are suppose to do...at nearly any reasonable angle. Good for big critters.

My 444 is the XLR and is yet to be fired. I have no elk eperience, but I can offer some a good friend has. He bought one 20 or so years ago and is the camp cook type. He'll cook breakfast early, take a nap, then head out a few hundred yds from camp. He killed 3 elk with that 444 and 240 Rem Core-lokts. The gun sports a $19.99 tasco scope, that to my knowledge has never had to be resighted. I know this because I'm the one who usually checks the zero. Hes fired 4 shots and recoverd one bullet, picture perfect. He breaks all the rules that I live by, and never misses a beat and love every minute of it. His other fav cart. is the 44-40. He turned 70 this May.

Joseph

Fifth,
No Elk in NY or the northeast for that matter.Deer and Yotes have been all I have taken with my 444.
When the 444 was my only rifle,I was very much into this website.
Here is one in the series of good reads on your subject.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/17

I love the .444. I'd get a Lee 310 grain .429 mold. It will shoot through a bus when cast hard.

It is exceedingly rare that I agree with anything Swapman says, but this time I think he is on the right track. I would predict that a hardcast flatnosed heavy bullet will make a .429 hole (plenty big enough) right through an Elk or Bear from most any reasonable angle at any reasonable (say, under 150 yards or so) range.

I use Cast Performance LBT style bullets in my 44 Magnum woods walking gun and if you do not want to cast your own I have found them to be quite excellent. Here is the website to order from them:

http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=CP44%2F255PB


I will be sending in an order myslef, really soon.

My uncle killed a nice bull, very dead, with a .444 and the Leverevolution ammo.

Well, I guess if you don't count PA in the northeast.

Never shot an elk with my Winchester .444, but I have used it for caribou hunting here, and it does a very nice job at moderate ranges -- 200 yards or so. I will have no problem taking it elk hunting if I so desire.

Dennis

I too have heard good things about that ammo. IT shoots tight groups and kills things quickly.

BMT

Good to see you posting Dennis...

I hear good things about the .444/265gr Horn combo on moose. Can't see why an elk wouldn't die just as quick.

I would avoid the Hornady Leverevolution ammo in any caliber. The bullet just isn't sturdy enough for large game.

These will work....

https://beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

Dennis

I recall some awesome pics of your Timber Carbine and some Caribou. Post them again for us Sir, please.

Joseph

And you WERE doing so well..... Shoulda quit whlie you were on a roll of correct and decent sounding answers. Back into the dunce corner you go.

Swampy (Mark Lewis) is simply trolling lies again, being a worthless turd.

Ignore him.

Swampman was right....The 444 is hampered by factory ammunition using pistol bullets.By far the best factory bullet is the 265 grain Hornady but the links he gave to Beartooth Bullets,which are by far the best Cast bullets on the market for the home reloader,he was right.


Jayco

The leverevolution rounds are specifically designed for the 444 Marlin. They are not pistol bullets. I gave Swampy credit for finally saying something that was not the opposite of correct, his usual penchant, when he posted about the heavy cast slugs.

The leverevolution bullet is just another sales gimmick. They aren't worth a $hit for nothing. Get some real hunting bullets.

I've got a 444 & plan on using factory loads from Hornady with their 265 grain bullets. Only problem is that I like to eat elk. So usually the 30/06 ends up with me on the mtn.

I really would like to try it on a big ole black bear.

Another lightweight weighing in on something he knows nothing about.

Years ago, I felt as you. That ol' ought six really maintains your confidence. But after many years of elk hunting, I realized that most of my elk were taken at under a hundred yards, so if that is your experience you really aren't being hampered by using a 150 yard rifle. The 265 grain Hornady bullet is a good one. Maybe if you use it on bear and are successful, you'll feel more confident using it on elk.

Take the plunge, man.

Yup, gotta admit, as much as I hate it, swampy was right on this one. Put me down as another Beartooth fan, Marshall's write ups on the 444 are a wealth of knowledge.

Just avoid the FTX bullets and you'll be fine. The 265 InterLock is a pretty good bullet if you don't want to use hard cast.

MooseMike,not at all.I just forgot.
There was talk of trying to plant them in the Adirondacks.Not sure that would work out.

The very early 444 Remington 240gr were pistol bullets.They soon figured out that wasn't a good idea.They beefed them up so in reality the 444 does not use pistol bullets.
Swamp 429 casts don't always work well.My 444 MICROGROOVE slugs closer to .430.I used .431 casts.Marlin barrels can very with production.

That's why we make a bore cast, and buy or cast the right size cast bullets.

all these complaints about 'pistol bullets'...

I load my 444 that was new in 1980....pretty much exclusively for hunting with 300 grain XTPs...she is leaving the Muzzle at a sedate 1850 fps...

however I see it as a 150 yd brush gun.. 1.5 x 4 scope on top...

that combo has never left me desiring or needing any more...

sadly, I tested out several boxes of the 265 grainer.. and I prefer the 300 grain XTP...

I am surprised at how many are satisfied with the 265grn Hornady FP. Enlightening. I've been very happy with Hornady's 30 cal selection but I never considered them a tough FP levergun bullet maker. I may try them out if they present themselves for the right price.

I agree that moose should be similar to Elk but I have no experience with them. I've heard aiming too high on a Yukon Moose equals a running/lost animal or a charging bull. RM Elk have heavy bones and really require good penetration. I assumed the .444 throwing a 300grn would minimum for Elk. Too bad Nosler doesn't offer a Partition as an alternative to the spendy A-Frame. Although, Nosler isn't always cheap themselves.

I got these 300grn Uni-Cor bullets on clearance not really knowing too much about them. The boxes looked really old but I know copper and lead doesn't expire. They will be in my first loadings. If I were to try out solid cast is there leading concern if they are pushed fast?

The Hornady 265 FP has been a staple for the 444 since it came out, and has a loyal and dedicated following, both among handloaders and in factory rounds. Some folks have had probs with the FTX rounds ref penetration, even on deer. Hornady is coming out with the new Monoflex bullet for lever actions, to supplement the FTX, which should work better on larger game such as elk.

Were it me, for elk I'd get the Hornady Superperformance ammo loaded with the 265 FP. It will get'er done at a reasonable price.

For those willing to pay more, CorBon and Buffalo Bore also offer beefed up 444 loads.

If you wanna use lead bullets, use a gas check and they shouldn't be a problem.

The Hornady 265gr FP is probably the only .429 bullet that is actually designed for the .444 and itf rifle velocity unlike all the others that are designed for the .44 Mag velocity.

Personaly I like heavier bullets in my 444. I've great succes (on paper) with the 300gr Hornady XTP, .300gr Speer UC and 300gr-325gr custom cast bullets.

Hawk Bullets also offers 444 bullets from 200 to 300 grains.

The leverevolution rounds have a very spotty reputation on large game.I would not even consider them for Elk when bullets like the A-Frame and good heavy cast with a large meplat are available.If I had to use factory ammo in the 444,I would use the 265 grain Hornady,hands down!It has a stellar reputation for not coming apart unlike the new Leverevoltion stuff.

Jayco

Jayco

Make mine .432"

The 265 was designd with the 444 in mind. See here

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,81274.0.html

Great tests in that thread. However, the test simply confirms my belief that the 444 should be loaded with 300grn pills for elk. Although the Hornady FP 265 rated well in that test I doubt its C&C construction is best for angle shots.

Well yeah if you are talking raking shots you can not beat a 300 gr cast bullet.

Lots of game has fallen to Hornady's LeverEvolution FTX bullets. I don't use them in my Marlin .45-70 but would gladly do so if they made them for my Marlin .375 Win and I do use them in my Marlin .30-30. Not sturdy enough for large game? The last thing I'd worry about is a 265g .444" FTX falling apart at .444 Marlin velocities.

My experience with 160g FTX in my .30-30 is that they are are very accurate (group sizes at 100 yards are half what I get with my Rem M700 .30-06) and the higher BC really helps downrange. They have replaced the 170g Speer FP and Partition RN's as my hunting ammo. I'm not going to worry about them falling apart on deer or elk, either- velocities just aren't that high.

I bought my .444S Marlin new in 1981 (pre-cross bolt). I run a Leupold M8-4X with QR mounts on this rifle and use .265 FP Hornady bullets pushed by H-335 powder. If I did not reload, I would use .444 Marlin .265 gr. InterLock� FP Superformance� ammunition exclusively.

I read on the Marlin Owners forum that the Hornady FT ammunition case length is shorter than standard 444 cases. If so, this is just another reason for me to avoid that stuff. CP.

I think this about sums it up for me and Elk bullets.Inconsistent bullets have no place in my rifles for hunting.The quote is about leverevolution bullets.



Jayco

Agreed. With the stipulation that until the Monoflex bullet is tested the jury remains out on that particular bullet.

Just avoid the FTX bullets and you won't end up with lost game. They ain't worth a $hit for nothing.

Except for the tip, the FTX aren't much different than Core-Lokt - both are cup-and-core bullets. Put one where it belongs and either will do the job.

Frankly, use either at .30-30, .444 or .45-70 muzzle velocities and I'll go with the FTX as I trust the tip to help retain higher velocities longer and initiate more reliable expansion as velocity drops.

Howdy Jim...

So your not a premium bullet guy anymore or are the leveractions the exception to the rule?You once spoke premium for leverguns and your choice of North Forks but now the gummie tip?

Just curious to your observations with the Hornady gummie tip.

Jayco

The FTX bullets are hollow points with a piece of plastic for a nose. They aren't worth a $hit. The Core-Lokt is a deer sized game bullet, and it's awesome. For elk and large game you need a real bullet.

Swampman, in all honesty, do you know anything about Elk hunting?

I know a lot about bullet design and shooting large animals with them. I also know that normal bullets have always hamstrung the .444. It needs a heavy cast bullet to work it's magic.

That's what I read to Rancho.... what 'large animals' have you taken/ seen taken?

Are you going to count the infamous azz-shot "8 year old" deer? If not, are you ruling it out due to the use of a golf-cart?

George

Im gonna be fair and include anything he can hang a pic of... golf cart or not...

You're just going easy 'cause he's a Floridian .

George

That's the reason why im bustin his azz bout comenting on elk hunting... WTH do we Floridians know about elk hunting?

Probably about the same as I know about hunting 'gators...

Agreed... I've never even seen an elk...

I saw an elk once......

Zoos, ranches and "from behind" don't count.....

Oh.......nevermind.......

Whoa!... I lied I've actually seen a couple tame ones on a ranch, butchered one for a man. I meant real Elk though...

No you aren't....your opinion means less than nothing...period.

Wow...I guess that puts you in your place Podunk....


What a fuggin' tool...

Well as one who has worked with a 444 since 1980...your above two comments conflict with ANYTHING I have ever seen....

one does NOT need a heavy cast bullet to "work its magic"...

you just have to match your MV to the bullets design parameters that you are using..

so your statement about they only work with "heavy cast bullets" is wrong, which would also negate your ego motivated comment about " knowing a lot about bullet design and shooting large animals with them" theory.....

evidently your knowledge isn't as vast as you give yourself credit for..

A HP is not necessarily a bad thing - especially at .444 downrange velocities - unless you're shooting elk in the azz and then I'd prefer a 300g hardcast.

When it comes to FTX and Core-Lokt, I'd much rather hunt elk with a .444 Marlin and a 265g FTX @ 2325fps than a Remington 240g SP @ 2350fps. Using Hornady and Remington loads, the FTX has more velocity and energy at 300 yards than the Core-Lokt has at 200.

Once again, the FTX bullets aren't worth a $hit. For big game, you need a real hunting bullet.

Remington only offers the .444 in a 240 grain Core-Lokt which is ok for deer. It's not suitable for big game.

The FTX is a great marketing ploy. It catches plenty of hunter's wallets, but it was an answer to a question that was never asked.

Swampy you shhooorree told me... . azzclown.

Do you have a point?

Do YOU have one?

I mean besides the one athe top of your pointy litle head....

To the OP - I've killed 5 elk with the 444 at 150 yards or less. Four were one shot kills, the elk just stood there or took a couple steps then got wobbly and fell over. One was quartering to and shot through the front shoulder joint, put another one in him because I didn't like the angle on the first shot. First shot destroyed the knuckle joint, penetrated both lungs, and was found just under the skin on the off side.

All were taken with a Barnes XPB 225 grain bullet over H4198 or H335 (too much muzzle flash with H335). I did some wet news paper and water filled milk jug penetration studies and found the XPB slightly out penetrated the Hornady 265 grain flatnose, and no worries about it staying together. The four one shot kills were broadside with pass throughs, as was the insurance shot on the fifth elk.

Just an annecdote from a local hunter I spoke with that used a 444Marlin on Sambar over hounds ... so shots were on moving deer around the size of elk. For years he used the 265gr Hornady in factory and reloads. Excellent performance, 7 out of 10 deer were stopped emphatically, with maybe 3 out of 10 travelling a tad further upto 50 yards, but never lost anything. When the 300gr Speer appeared, he bought x100 projectiles to try and loaded them up and kept hunting over the hounds as he always has. The bigger slug dropped them just as well ... over the course of a few seasons however he came to realise that the 2-3 that used to move on weren't happening anymore. At that point he became a 'believer' and when I spoke with him it was a near 100% performance from the 300gr projectile.

Now me personally ... I haven't pointed them in anger ... but I like to split the difference and load the 280gr Woodleigh as they're 'soft', bonded to open wide without losing weight and stubby enough not to take up much powder space. My 444Marlin has been shortened to 18.5", so the 280gr was viewed as a compromise between staying heavy and maintaining enough velocity to allow a longer shot if it crops up. Also helped that locally a Swift 280gr is a $2 pill, where the Woodleigh is a $1.20 projectile. For fun I run a soft generic 240gr with Alliant 2400.

Regarding the FTX projectiles, a friend is using them in a Ruger 44Mag rebarrelled and rechambered to 357/44B&D. For whatever reason, when the tip is ground flat to allow feeding through the rotary magazine, the projectile seems to 'harden'. That litle pill has end to ended pigs and goats and been devestating.
Cheers...
Con

Yes Swampy, I have a point. Read the two post above this... got that part? Now read your posts about using the 444 for elk. What is the main difference?

There are multiple reports on Marlinowners.com ref the FTX not penetrating as well as it might. These observations were submitted to Hornady. Hornady is now bringing out the Monoflex bullets, which should provide better penetration. Yes, the pointy tip provides better ballistics and stretches the useful range, but I, personally, would not be inclined to use the FTX for elk. The Monoflex, probably, depending on how field reports come back.

I would be more inclined to use the 265 Hornady flat point or a 300 Speer. A gas-checked hardcast would also be applicable.

And yes, I live in Florida, and yes, I have seen elk, including one herd of probably 80-100 animals, including several fine herd bulls. That was in 1990 in Colorado. Unfortunately, I was deer hunting, not elk hunting. This was not on private land, not on a ranch.

Outstanding. That is precisely what I was looking for. Thank you. If I may, were you running the Barnes 225 XPB hot? Any chance at a chronograph? I never even considered looking at those lower weight "HP solid" Barnes bullets but you have piqued my curiosity now.

Pretty funny that a poster that has only seen Elk in a petting zoo would even make any commentary on this subject.

Great hunting story on the Sambar. Your friend sounds like "the guy to know" on hunting the game, I wish I knew him. Those Sambar look to share a lot of similarities. I don't know how "tough" they are to go down but they look to be a young cow or spike bull in size.

I completely agree on the Swift bullets. I used to load their 30 cal Scirocco for the magnum but they just became way too expensive. I switched to the Partition or even a Hot-Cor in a heavier pill. But those Scirocco bullets sure did shoot great.

Thanks for the input.

(BTW, is the hostility in this thread typical of the forum?)

I'm not running it hot, but it is a max load. No chrony data, but it should be just shy of 2200 fps. They aren't solids - they are the pistol version of the X bullet.

Then why are you commenting?

FIxed it for you Swampy... Please don't comment on anything ELk related you have not hunted them and you surely have never used a 444 on one so why bother or are you psychotic?

I've hunted them, and you haven't hunted at all.

I think somewhere you said you killed hundreds of them. I will post my pics if you post yours... Go ahead. I am sure you have some nice petting zoo photos Azzhole.

We shouldt prompt him, he might have a fit and carry his 444 to the zoo......

pdk...If you are looking to get into a battle of wits with Swampy...

Be aware that he is unarmed...

Akin to teasing the mentally challenged?

Nice PC way to put it.....

Poor guy, he can't figure out that the helmets keepin him from lickin the window.....

I tried to be nice to that azzhole and it got me nowhere Now some kids won't be able to pet Elkie because Swampy is going to kilt him.

I've only personally seen one deer killed with the 444. A friend of mine shot a little doe last year with the leverevolution from about 100 yards. I carried it out on my atv. There were two exit holes where the bullet broke apart. But she dropped right there.

I�m still running 350g North Forks through the .45-70 � no change there. Can�t get a premium for the .375 Winchester so I�m running 225g Hornady . Started playing with the .30-30 and FTX last year and was amazed at the results on paper � by far the tightest groups I�ve had, including .5� during load development. Took it to the range two weeks running and fired one shot each week. Too bad I used different targets as the holes would have been touching or darn near so.

I suspect I�ll give the MonoFlex a try later this year, after hunting seasons are over. If they work out like the FTX, I�ll probably use them for hunting and the FTX for play and most of my practice. The 170g Partitions and Speer FP I have loaded and have hunted with in the past are now plinking loads. Never could get good consistency with the Partitions anyway and kept reverting to the Speer.

Yeah, the levers are an exception. Especially the Browning .44 Mag � I�m happy with C&Cs at 1881fps at the muzzle. The bolts all get North Fork, Barnes MRX or TTSX, Swift Scirocco II or Nosler AccuBond. Still not sold on the last two but will likely try them again this year. I still have a box of Federal 160g Partitions for the 7mm RM from the days when I took them as back-up ammo fro my Grand Slam loads. Just checked out of curiosity, 17 loaded rounds in the box. The lot number is 350158Z239. Not sure how old they are but I�m guessing they are from the last century.