For those of you that have hunted with these cartridges, did you notice a difference in their performance on game at all? I can see pros and cons for each cartridge.

The 7mm uses a bit shorter case that gives you a bit more room to seat a bullet out further. 7mm bullets have all the numbers to make people think they are God's gift. It also seems to kick a bit less.

Then again, any bullet the 7mm pushes, the 300 will push one 10 to 20gr heavier at the same speed with more frontal area. I have to stomp bullets in fairly far to fit in the magazine of my M70. But, there doesn't seem to be an issue as far as accuracy with that rifle. It shoots great regardless of how much the bullet jumps.

As far as purpose for comparison, let's make believe that this rifle will be used to hunt antelope out to 400 yards and then hunt animals the size of moose at those ranges or as close as the sphincter allows.

If Moose are in the equation, I want the larger frontal area and hole of the 30 or even larger. I consider the 300WBY to STILL, after all of these decades, to be the best of the all around belted magnum bunch by a good margin.

There is no need to get analytical.....the .300 kicks harder, therefore, it is better.

For the reasons you stated,I think the 300's are more "powerful" cartridges.I agree with safariman on the 300 Weatherby, which is likely my all-time favorite 300 magnum.

I have seen them flatten elk at what I consider to be "long range",bounce an Alaskan brown bear,and have driven 180 and 200 gr bullets 3/4 the length of bull elk at about 450 yards and at under 100.I have also seen them give very spectacular kills.Across the board, they are more potent cartridges.

Have done pretty much the same things with the 7mm bullets.


Does this always translate to quicker kills? No, not in my experience....I have noticed that the spectacular kills occur on any game only when they are properly hit. An elk hit poorly with a 300 magnum will give you just as big a problem as if you had slopped one into the edges with a Big 7mm.I see no advantage of the Big 30's over the Big 7mm's in that regard.

Across the board, I think the 300's are more potent,but "good" heavy 7mm bullets at magnum velocities start to nudge you into 300 magnum territory.A lot has to do with what bullets you use, so that if you gave me a choice between (say)a 300 Win Mag with a standard 180 gr bullet, and a 7mm Rem mag with a 160 gr Bitterroot....for anything...I would take the 7mm load every time.There isn't anything in North America, including moose and grizzly, that I would hesitate to shoot with that load.

You could certainly load an equally good bullet in the 300's, and you'd have a more "potent" package.But again, unless you hit game exactly right,you will have a problem and the extra power of the 300's won't make up for that.

I have noticed that every single time I have seen a spectacular kill with either cartridge, the animal was precisely well hit.....and every time I have seen a rodeo with either cartridge,the animal was NOT well hit.It is really tough to overemphasize this bullet placement thing.

We can play mind games with this stuff all day long...but let me ask(because I don't know the answer what does a 180 gr 30 cal bullet, started at 3100 fps do, that a 7mm bullet weighing 175 gr and started at the same velocity,not do?Assuming equal placmement,and assuming they both expand to .60 to .65 caliber and penetrate equally? (I know the 30 has a frontal area advantage while flying through the air...does this always hold true after they hit game?)

Dan BTW,you can get around the deep seating issues with your M70 300 Win Mag by swapping mag parts,having ejector and bolt stop modified for H&H length. You can also throat with a dummy with 180 gr bullet seated to base of cartridge neck.I hunted years with a 300 Win Mag set up that way and it worked really well with 180 Partitions and 165 Bitterroots loaded to 3140 and 3240 or so.

[quote=






We can play mind games with this stuff all day long...but let me ask(because I don't know the answer what does a 180 gr 30 cal bullet, started at 3100 fps do, that a 7mm bullet weighing 175 gr and started at the same velocity,not do?Assuming equal placmement,and assuming they both expand to .60 to .65 caliber and penetrate equally? (I know the 30 has a frontal area advantage while flying through the air...does this always hold true after they hit game?)

[/quote]


Excellent post Bob, the only thing I'd add or have noticed different is that the 180/30's will stay in game from time to time and I've never caught a 175 Preme bullet out of a Big 7. I'd say if one wants a 7 bullet to comp to a 180/30 I'd be looking more like a 150 of which I've only caught one of any sort.

2 holes is a big deal to this kid and less recoil is a bigger deal to me now than it ever was. So for those reason I'd go with a Big 7 each and every day over a 30.

Dober

Dober: I feel the same way, while not doubting the effectivness of a 30 cal magnum, but just wanting a lighter package and a bit less recoil.

300 Win Mag is better, cuz the 7mm is metric and 30 cal is American! Honestly I think its a 6 of one, half dozen of the other kinda thing.

Amen to that!

Dober

175's @3000

200's @3000

Both stellar killers, take your pick on rifle configuration, or to be a little different than the rest of your battery.

Gunner

edit: spelling

Have a short parallel comparison of 7mmWSM and 300WSM in Africa, eland to warthog. 160gr Barnes TSX 7mm and 168gr TSX 308, both run at about 3100 fps. I know they're not the same but the ballistics are comparable, with the 300s just adjust the yardage to match. Both bullets were recovered under some circumstances, both bullets exited under some circumstances, each provided one shot kills, each in some cases required follow up shots. And in no case was any game lost. Worst case was several follow up shots at kudu. Shot with 7mm, but I was not familiar with the anatomy of kudu, which are built like a knife blade. This one probably went 200 yd. I don't feel either one was inadequate, and wouldn't hesitate to repeat the hunt with either one.

I grab my 7RM alot more than my 300win. Recoil from the 7mm is a winner. Venison gonna taste the same. If I had to choose for a build, 300 wby would be the one.

Have taken elk and deer with both. Same results and to be honest cannot tell difference in recoil. Both are fine hunting rounds.

Dan, your 300 win mag will suffice for any hunting you want to do in NA. I used one for years and it works like it is susposed to, it has a little bit of an edge over the 30-06 (something I've also used for years) for the longer ranges. Pick a good bullet for the 300 win mag like the 180 partition and you will have most of your bases covered. I've used bullets ranging from 165 (mine loved the 165 nosler solid base bullet, can't get those anymore ), 180 partition, and loaded down 200 accubonds for some rifle comps I used to attend back when I only had one rifle to my name and they wouldn't allow anything over 2700 fps on their steel targets , (I still took home the money but was playing with an extreme handicap as my 180 partition load was much more accurate, but running around 3,100 fps)......No flies on the 300 win mag especially if you are talking about your pre 64 model 70. I'd hunt that bastid and never look back........Hey by the way, you are going to have to update us on that pre 64 if you still have it.....

You should have thrown the 338 win mag in there just for a more rounded comparison...

I still have it. I'm not going to get rid of this one. I loaded up a bunch of loads for it over the last few weeks but haven't had the weather or time to get to the range. I loaded 180gr Partitions with H4831 in 1/2 grain increments from 71gr to 73gr. I also loaded up some 150gr TTSXs with H4350 in the same way with the same charges. I figured I'd shoot 2 5-shot groups with each load and check velocity along the way. If one load seemed to group better than the others, I'd mess with OAL to find the right spot.

My Dad doesn't want me to refinish the rifle due to what it is. My problem is that there are some small spots on the metal where the finish is worn to the white. The finish on the stock has been partially re-done. If I'm going through the trouble of refinishing the stock for protection's sake and touching up the metal, why not go with a complete re-finish?

A "complete" refinish may hurt the resale value of the rifle, but if you plan on keeping it forever it wouldn't hurt anything........It's your rifle so you should be able to make your own choices as to what you do to it. Either way, you've got one dandy and I'd hang on to it too if I were you. Nothing wrong with the 300 win mag either.....

Isn't this just the .270-30-06 discussion revisited????

No, I think we have that figured out. If you are gay or coming out of the closet then you use the 270, if you are a real man then you opt for the 30-06.......

.280 vs .30-06

What about those that use both?

Can't be that either!�... .270 is above and beyond '06 and 280. Thems puss guns

not certain, but pretty sure those guys make the homeland defense terrorist watch list.

I'm just glad Desertmuledeer sold me that 30-06 Extreme Weather when he did. Sounds like he's got issues.....

On my all weather rifle, I thought about these two exclusively. I went with the 300 WM due to the option of shooting from 130 gr to 200 gr bullets. Gave me a reason to choose and get out of the store with a long box.

Would use a 7mm RM in a minute though. Everyone else in my elk camp uses a 7mm RM. And they get elk as well.

RAS

I'm a newbie to the 7mm rem mag, but so far I really like it. Still no flies on the 300 win mag though...

There both top notch hunting rounds....but I use a 300WM most of the time!

Damn, that sounds like a good reason NOT to use a 7 Mag!

Buy em both(all), love em both(all), that's my philosophy.

Yessir!

"No, I think we have that figured out. If you are gay or coming out of the closet then you use the 270, if you are a real man then you opt for the 30-06......."

That is funny! To put my nickle in the descussion I will take the 300! I had a 7MM that kicked like a mad mule. I am partial to 30-cal though and like said repeadatly I doubt any animal would ever die differently from one or the other.

Had to laugh a little bit... "the 7 Mag kicked like a mule, so I want something that kicks harder"!

7-08 vs 308.....243 vs 257Rbts.....25-06 vs 260...223AI vs 22-250.......

If it weren't for splitting hairs, what would we gack about?........223 vs 30-06 would be too much separation to argue about.....grin.

Gota be brief because the game is about to start. I've often said that the 300mags are just about perfect for the bigger cud chewers and they probably are. But after killing a number of good bull elk with the 7mmRM I can not see any difference between the 300's and the big 7's. With Nosler Partitions both are ideal or so I say.

SuperT:

GO PATS!

And THAT'S a wrap!

My 7m RM has dropped quite a few elk in their tracks. The one I took with my .300WM went about 25 yards, dead on its feet.

Recoil is noticeably heavier with my .300WM.

I like them both but shoot the 7mm RM more.

""the 7 Mag kicked like a mule, so I want something that kicks harder"!"

It must be percieved or stock design but that 7MM was a sharper recoil for me any ways. I never minded the 338 either, but it was a 9-lb rifle. That was my only experience with owning a 7MM was my point and it was nasty!

I own 3 7s and 3 300s. I shoot the 7s far more.

The lighter recoil is nice. Ballistics are a wash and on game performance is the same.

BobinNH, sorry about that. The final score I mean!

For me, the 7mm firing 175 gr. has a little less recoil compared to the 300 firing 180 with like stock designs.

I settled on a 338 for a number of years back after hunting/shooting a 300 win for a short stint. My own experience was after shooting a 300 with full house 180 and 200 grain loads, for the difference in recoil, might as well shoot a 338 with 225 gr loads.

The 7mm rem mag does with ease, hitting of far targets with high retained velocity/energy without knock'n you out from under your hat and a lot less chance give'n a fella a moon shape cut between the eyes from prone also.....

I have uses for all 3 rifles plus my .280 rem. But sure use/shoot the 7mm rem mag ALOT anymore

Boomwhack and others.... Slightly off topic, but do you find, as I do, that the big fast 33's hit stuff harder and put 'em down quicker than do any 7mm or 30 cal? My 340 Tyrannosaur aka 338/8mmRemMag with Barnes 225gr TTSX's running 3100fps really puts the hurt on stuff. Tends to make an Elks legs all wobbly at impact.

That said, my Brother in law put one of my 120gr TTSX handloads (3400fps!) from his 7mm Magnum into a black bear in a tree fall before last, and tht poor bear was WAY dead before he hit the ground. Bangflop and DRT on black bear is hard to do. The close range and that the bullet was probably still travelling 3300fps at impact 'might' have had something to do with that.....

Sometimes they run and someimes DRT depending on contact with the spine.
Same story with either caliber.

Interesting thread. For all the people that use the 7mm more, I find it curious that in the classifieds, a 7mm RM will sit while 30-06's, 300 WM, and 388's will sell all around the good old 7mm. Seen that in many stores up here as well. Personally I fall into the category that I doubt the animal will know the difference but there is no room in my safe for a 7mm.

There is always room for one of each (300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag) in my safe. Both are very nice and accurate rifles. One is a Steyr SBS Forester and the other is a Sako AV. Hard to pick a favorite.

The market is saturated with 7RM rifles, and it's not because they're not popular or well-liked...

[quote=Cariboujack a 7mm RM will sit while 30-06's, 300 WM, and 388's will sell [/quote]
Larger calibers kicks more, and makes the user feel like he is trying harder, who doesn't want to try harder? (grinning).

superT don't worry. The Pats had their chances and didn't pull it over....C'est La Vie!

Have a 7 Rem Mag, 7 RUM, 300 WSM, and two 300 Win Mags...redundancy or adequate backup???

Barely adequate backup!

Heck why limit yourself to one rifle,buy one of each.

There is nothing the 300 Win can do better except bruise you or bring about a flinch quicker. Period. BTDT... If things you seek can seek you back then I suggest going up the caliber ladder more than one rung..... JMO

w

Both! I see a bit of redundancy as a good thing. I mean, a guy might need a spare...

Wow, I was starting think it was silly of wanting to add a 338 Win Mag or 280 Rem to my 30-06, 7 Rem Mag, and 300 Win Mag. Glad I'm not the only one with deep backup. Perhaps I should just get both...

Yep, I see some holes in there....

Just thinking about that 340 tyrannasour makes my legs all wobbly....

The ones that have dropped right there mostly were from breaking important structural bones such as hips, yes hips... 'If you hunt elk in timber you will soon figger this out' shoulders, spines and or brain pans.

There has been few exceptions..

I had a med. sized bull elk take a 225 partition from my 338 win at 2860 fps full broadside shot at 70 yards, steam blew from both sides and not even quiver, stood there a bit and decide to stumble off to keel over 15 yards later. Did not drop, and took one hell of a lot of energy and a big bullet with no more than one broke rib on bullet entry. Not dropped but figgered I would make some kind of comparison

Wife wacked a nice fat cow a few years later with the 45-70. Around fifty yards the 350 gr. hornady round nose at 1986fps dropped her DRT. with a little kicking of one hind leg. Shot placement was darn near exact as the med bull with the .338.

Another med. sized bull took a 160 gr speer spitzer 2800fps from my .280 at 250 yards facing me head on, dropping him so fast it was like he vanished... He stood back up for a bit and my partner to the side of me says, ya gunna shoot him again?? I did shoot again but after he explained that was NOT a different bull like I thought. First Shot perfectly centered in chest above the brisket broke no bone, the bullet lost in the stomach/intestines. Second whistled threw the slats and already destroyed vitals.

A spike caught me flat footed and 20 yards in an opening, threw up the .280 fired and he was down, doing the die'n chicken. Hit him off to his right side, between the chest and shoulder ruining only one lung and... here is the kicker, busting his pelvis!!! the reason he dropped. That 160 gr. nosler partition made it threw around four feet of elk THEN busted bone. Recovered bullet was just the shank, front half sheared off from the cannilure 'factory second bullets'.

Im in belief premium bullets level the playing field from smaller bore vs. large bore.... Not to go to far off topic or hyjack the tread

Agreed....been true at least since guys started shooting animals with Partitions and,a bit later,Bitterroots.

Boomwhack good post!

Dan you've always been a larger is better about calibers kind of guy. You'll always go for a 30cal (maybe magnum) for elk and 7mm (or bigger) for deer.

Spoken like a true PNW' er.......

Thank you bobinNH Premiums are the reason I tend to use the 7mm caliber on ANYTHING. It took a while, but I finally noticed the partitions and such in the 7mm Lost little to no ground compared even to the .338 in expansion, penetration, bone busting, blood trails. Granted I have not gone after brown bear yet, or calmed a nasty grizzly en' rout for me, but when the chance comes nosler will probably be the bullets.

If got a hanker'n for 300 or a 338, by all means get one, or both!! They are DEADLY on game and a fine addition to the 7mm rem mag. Between those three calibers, short of blue whales, you could kill any game animal on the globe.

That's not totally true as far as deer go. I'd take just about any legal caliber deer hunting unless the ranges were bound to be far. Then, I'd take enough gun to shoot through the wind. 270, 280, 7mm Rem Mag have been favorites of mine though I'd love to give a 25-06 a spin.

As far as elk, you have me pinned. I've been a fan of 30 or 33 calibers for elk but I know for a fact that it doesn't take that much gun to kill an elk. Just my own personal preference I guess.

Safariman: Yes I have seen some times when I got that impression...and then something or several things have happened that made me more confused about the whole cartridge/bore diameter thing than I was before..... This is nerve racking!But I try to keep an open mind which is hard sometimes.

One of the fastest black bear kills I have had was with a 280 Remington and a 140 Bitterroot at about 80 yards(he weighed about 300 pounds later on scales); no running gear involved, pure rib/lungs/rib,but the bear was down to the shot and never got up...among many we shot, two of the toughest recoveries came from bears hit a smidge far back with a 340 Weatherby and a 257 Roberts.....

Three companions spread out in an oak brush canyon on an elk hunt we were on....and by good fortune they each got cracks at bulls...These were not really long range shots, maybe in the 250-350 yard range,and when the melee was over all 3 elk were dead.Funny thing was one was armed with a 340 Weatherby, another with a 300 Win Mag, and the third a 7 Rem mag.....I carried a 300 mag a lot in those days, either Winchester or Weatherby,and used both with good success...another bull on another hunt,gave me a bit of a problem with a 300 Weatherby.I chased him down and killed him,jumping him from his bed,injured but still very much alive.

There are more of these "experiences" but these come to mind...

In reconciling this stuff over the years,it dawned on me that the biggest single factor that made things go from "simple" to "rodeo",and distinguished these experiences,was...... bullet placement . I noticed that the truly spectacular kills, with any of the cartridges, depended on putting a good bullet in pretty exactly the right spot.

It makes sense to me that certain bullets (not all) of 30,338,358 and 375 caliber of heavier weight,tougher construction,and greater cross sectionl areas, should do a better job of breaking heavy bones,tearing up more flesh and tissue,and creating more trauma,than smaller calibers..(if this were not true,we'd shoot Cape Buffalo with 243's)...but it also seems that some (not all) bullets of (say) 6.5, 270, and 7mm,also do a good job at this stuff,and while they may lack the weight of the bigger stuff,their construction lets them inflict enough wounding capability to overwhelm the life support systems of a pretty wide range of game animals,if properly placed.

Bullet placement and construction seem to be the equalizers,and the shooters ability to direct a bullet where it needs to go is paramount,whether,from a big cartridge or a smaller one...the reason I don't get too excited anymore over the "differences" between a (for example)270 and a 280AI or 30/06.

For some shooters, excessive recoil gets in the way of the placement equation;and some have the "bigger is better" mentality but at the same time do not have the training and practice levels to extract full value from a bigger, heavier recoiling rifle..They mistakenly buy the bigger cartridge,and expect dramatic results,even if they can't shoot it well(They also frequently kid themselves about their ability to do so)......these are the guys in search of magical effect from rifles and cartridges, thinking the magic is in the caliber,the headstamp,and the power...it isn't. It's in the bullets, and where they go that matters most.

I think this is why you saw what you saw,and what many of us have seen over the years. My 2 cents....

Bob,

Terrific post, thank you for your thougthful, reasoned and experience based comments. I agree that good bullets have leveled the playing field greatly. I would not hesitate to hunt Elk these days with my 257WBY using the Barnes 100gr TTSX bullets and may yet do so.

My Uberfast 33 might become a 7RUM or STW someday. Jury is still out for me as I just plain like the big bullet on some things where my 416 Rigby is just a tad too much. Probably old prejudices and my love for overkill combined with good experineces with this rifle and cartridge both here and in Africa. If the lower 48 was the extent of my hunting, the rifle in question probably would have remained a 300WBY like its last barrel was or maybe have been a really big 7mm of some sort.

Safariman: You have the field and shooting experience to extract full value from your 338 wildcat;know how to manage the rifle well.If I were you I wouldn't change a thing....

But what I also seem to see is that for guys like you, it doesn't matter what you shoot. You will do well with anything you pick up....and if the time comes that you decide to do it,you could step down to a Big 7mm or something in that range,and do just fine!

The first bolt action centerfire I bought was a walnut Ruger Mk II 7x57. The second I bought was a walnut M700 in .280 with 24 inch barrel. You gentlemen are making it very hard for me to justify a 7 Mashburn Super, a 300 Weatherby, and an 8mm Rem Mag!!!!!

Dogger a guy always needs a spare!

Shoot what you like,and like what you shoot.

I like just about everything... that is my problem...

.280 Rem, 7mm RM, .308 Win, .30-06, .30-06, .30-06, .300WM, .338 WM.

What I've done with any could have been done by all.

I like the redundancy and the backup.

It certainly makes sense in Washington. Use something bigger, put it down faster. Then, hopefully, avoid the "that's my elk" argument with someone else who shot your elk as it ran off, though already fatally hit. *and no this has never happened to me, but have heard about it*

I quite honestly don't think I even want to hunt in (western) Washington anymore.

I am pretty sure it is a good start....

7x61 S&H,.308 Win, .30-06, .30-06, .30-06, .338 Win, .35 Whelen,

About three years ago really bad snow made it impossible for me to get to my old haunts in the SW Mt. Adams area. It also made it impossible for many others to get to THEIR old favorite spots. All of us hunters were packed into lower country. After two days of seeing a sea of Orange around every possible Elk travel route and no elk I called it quits on my week long scheduled hunt and packed up camp. Just was not fun and I thought it dangerous. I have not been back there since.

At a loss as to what or where to go in WA state to have a decent Elk hunt. Cannot stomach hunting only Spikes on this side of the Mountains.