Wanted to run a few thoughts by you guys and get some ideas.I am still considering a starter deer gun for my 8 year old daughter.I have considered the three I will list below and the reasons for each.Low recoil and light weight are major concerns.Her LOP needs to be close to 12-3/4" and she can't even back a hammer on a Handi rifle by herself.

1.The Kimber Montana in 223. 5 lbs 6 o/z
This seems a great choice in every area except cost and the need to cut down the stock.Weight and recoil level is where I want to be.I do hate to cut down such an expensive stock with no after market options in stocks.

2.CZ 527 Carbine.223 and 5.8 lbs
Weight and price is not too bad.I'm hesitant because of the factory 1:12 twist,higher than necessary scope mounting for bolt clearence and lack of scope ring and mount options.The wood stock would be easy to shorten and make the gun just as light as the Kimber.

3.Ruger American 243. 6.25 lbs.
This is a new consideration mostly for the $339 price.It would be a lot less painful to cut the stock and paint it the pink camo she wants.I have also considered cutting recrowning the barrel to 18.5"-20".

How much weight do you guys think we would lose by cutting the stock for a 12-3/4" LOP? How much more by cutting the barrel?
Would the muzzel blast and recoil be excessive with reduced loads if we did such a modification?

PS
I also have a 3 year old son who will likely use the rifle at some point.I will however change the camo theme for him.

I know it is not among your choices, but a good low-cost route would be the SPS Compact 700 youth models by Remington. Just went the roundabout way of doing one for my 7yr old, as hers is an SPS SS cut to 20" and put in an ADL Compact handle. LOP is about 12 1/4" with all the stock spacers removed. Looks a little funky with the big 1" stack of spacers in there for adult LOP, but it should be functional. Light package too. This one is 6lb 4oz with Talley alloy mounts. We're painting hers too.....

BTW, I'd go 243win if not a handloader. 7mm-08 if you do handload. (BassPro has these 20" models for $439-459 with no need for $$$ to cut/crown or cut stock)

You'll save an ounce or two for each inch of barrel you cut.

I'd recommend the Kimber easily over the others although the CZ is awfully nice too.

I will second the Remington idea. The youth is pretty good go and when you want to change camo or have it grow the LOP, remington plastics stocks can be had for a song on ebay.

When the kids are grown, its a fine donor action, or drop it into a edge for nice handy LW.

I'd look at the Savage Trophy Hunter XP Youth which comes with a serviceable Nikon 3-9x40 and a 20" tube.

Also the Savage Lady Hunter with a 20" tube.

SORRY FOR THOUGHTS NOT ON YOUR LIST, HOW ABOUT REMMY MODEL 7 SYNTHECTIC BLUED....ALREADY A 20 INCH BARREL AND A THEY ARE A BUILT FOR SMALLER STATURES, AND AT $549-$579 IT IS NOT CHEAP BUT ALSO NOT THE $1150 FOR THE MONTANA OR $675 FOR THE CZ. NOTHING AGAINST THE RUGER, HOWEVER IF I WAS BUYING A $350 RIFLE, I WOULD BUY A MARLIN XS7. JMO LENNY

I went the Model 7 youth/compact (whatever they call it) route. The fit is perfect for Connor, my 7 year old, but I'm still a little concerned about the noise from shorter barrel. I figure plugs and muffs will go a long ways in that regard.

George

Id go for the ruger! Cost being a big factor and with a synthetic stock you can't beat that package for a childs first deer rifle. Only thing that would put that ruger over the top would be if they were stainless. But I'm biased my first deer rifle was a stainless synthetic ruger mkII .308. I beat that rifle to death dragging it around in brush. It's still my favorite to to rifle. The American rifle has had good reviews as far as accuracy, but it is a little heavy but it will be lighter with a 20" barrel and a shorter stock. Good luck with your choice. All three will be sweet. My suggestion would be to let your kids pick. Let them handle the guns maybe shoot the cals, and see what they think. It is going to be there rifle right.

Heavy? They weigh 6-1/4 lbs. That ain't heavy!

I vote Ruger American in 243 for the youngster. Slap on a 4x Leupy, sight her in, and go huntin'.

Another vote for the xs7 youth. Light and ready to go with some paint. Mine shoots better than any other factory centerfire I have ever owned.

have 3 xl7s, 243, 25-06, and 270. all shoot under an inch when i do my part. have 4 model sevens, all but one is under moa with my loads, still working on the newest 7mm-08. have had lots of rugers... some of them shoot awesome, my tanger 257 is a .6 5 shot gun and some have gone away because they are not that great. just my thoughts, lenny

The American is not a youth model , so the LOP will need to be shortened . Hollow synthetic stocks are a PITA to shorten that much . Wood stocks , no sweat , but they're heavier . Brownells sells a youth pad with shorter screw spacing .

If im buying my 8 yr old a rifle, it would be a bridge. Something cheap to get them to 10-12 and a real gun. Try a h&r, cut the stock, and let her go at it. Your son needs his on gun when he gets ready...it causes complexes getting hand me downs...So my younger bro tells me...

If your close to s.e. al I might donate the h&r 7/08...

Shortening a hollow synthetic isn't that hard, cut to desired length with a new recoil pad thickness figured in. get a piece of 1x4 lumber and cut/grind/sand to fit inside the stock. Epoxy in place and screw new recoil pad on. Grind to fit. I did this to my wife's rifle and it's worked flawlessly.

AuNate
That is a very generous offer.She can't even cock the hammer on one of the Handi rifles though by herself.I am very humbled by the offer but some other child might get better use of it.Thank you very much for your generosity.

I feel sure I can shorten the stock.Cheesy...I was thinking along thoes lines but I have all thickness micarta and dymondwood from knife making.Good to know about the shortened hole spaced pads though.

My thanks to everyone,for the additional suggestions.I will try to looks at them all.I have taken her to one gun shop so far but they had a very limited selection of youth sized rifles.

On a trip today I saw a Ruger compact 223.Size looked great but weight wasn't much lighter than some other standard size rifles.I also got to handle a CZ 527.I am still looking and saving for the purchase.I'll let you guys know what we decide on.

i mean heavy compared to the other two choices listed by the op.

They are heavy ... But weatherby vanguards come in a youth package and also come with full sized stock (or they did)

She did try a Weatherby Vanguard youth but couldn't hold it up well in a standing position. I think the length of the barrel and weight distribution of the longer barrel had a lot to do with it.She could handle the short barrel Handi youth models fairly well.She just couldn't cock the hammer.

3+

Thats what I bot for my oldest grandson too (.243). Nice big cushy recoil pad and a pretty accurate little rig. An older Leuy VXIII 1-5 balances it off very nicely and its still light. He LUVES that little rifle.

NB

I was going to suggest one of these as well. We have one in .223. It came with a spacer to lengthen the stock when needed. The barrel on ours is only 20 inches...I was a bit suprised when you mentioned a "longer barrel".

I didn't measure the Vanguard's barrel but it was too heavy for her to hold just in a free hand standing position.The Handi Rifle felt nearly as heavy to me but she could hold it fairly well.I don't know the length of the barrel on the Handi but it was a good bit shorter than the Vanguard youth.

For deer: .243.

............Why not just go with a Ruger compact in a 223 or 243?

Now I know the 16.5" barrels are louder, but your 8 year old should be always be wearing good hearing protection ANYWAY. And there won`t be all that much of a difference in noise or blast to the ears between an 18" or a 20" tube vs a 16.5" barrel WITH good ear protection worn. And the loadings can always be reduced if you are a reloader which reduces the noise levels down even further.

The new Ruger compacts have a 12.5" LOP, are about 5 1/2 to 6 lbs, 35.5" long, and its dimensions should be much easier for her to handle all the way around in every respect.

Later as she grows, she can use a simple slip on recoil pad to increase the LOP by an inch or leave it off when wearing thicker clothing. With my slip on pad I do the same.

I have a 300 WSM MK2 Ruger Frontier. At 6'3" 235 lbs, the darn thing even for me still isn`t too small by any means. And btw my hearing is still excellent as I protect my hearing.

The Ruger compact`s OAL is a perfect size for an 8 year old to get started with and it will do very well even into adulthood.

I did look at one of the Ruger compacts in 223.My daughter wasn't with me on that trip though.I am considering one now as well.The only thing though is that at $633 from Buds they are close to the Savage Lady Hunter in price and weight.My initial research on the Ruger Compact Hawkeye doesn't show too good accuracy.I have read that Ruger considers 2" at 50 yards acceptable,and have read a few other bad accuracy reports.

I am also now looking into the new Savage Lightweight hunter in 223.It weighs 5.5 lbs and has a 1:9 twist and is $724.00 at Buds. We will try to look at the Lady Hunter and Lightweight Hunter in hand the next couple weeks.

I keep looking at the less expensive rifles and being dissapointed in quality,so I increase my price range and look some more.With the Savage LW Hunter going for $724,I might as well get the Kimber Montana and be done with it except for cutting the stock.The Savage LW Hunter has been getting good reviews though.On the other hand it's no Kimber.I'm going to have to step back and think about all the options a bit.

RHC,

FWIW, I was leaning towards the Ruger Compact (6.8 spc) , until I actually had my son handle it side-by-side with the Remington Model 7 youth/compact, Marlin XS7 Youth, and the Savage youth. I kept my mouth shut and just handed Connor rifles . It was obvious which fit/felt better by just watching his facial expressions.

The Ruger Compact is great in theory, but he struggled with it more than the others. Believe me, I wanted it to work. In the end, the Model 7 may cost a bit more, but he's worth it to me.

george

..................Don`t know what particular research sources you`re looking at, but my Frontier new from the box using the first 3 boxes factory ammo never had gotten above 1 5/8" groupings.

Secondly, as I tailored my handloads to what the rifle liked in terms of powders, bullets, seating depths etc, the groups tightened up even better.

And thirdly, since I recently had the rifle bedded and free floated, my groupings are even tighter. Some groups are down to 1/2" with overlapping holes. And that`s measured from outside to outside, NOT center hole to center hole.

Ruger a few years back did have accuracy issues. Since they started making their own barrels their accuracy issues have greatly diminished for the most part.

Compared with any research which may not be reliable and are usually written in terms of generalities, I put far more credibility in tailoring handloads to what an individual rifle prefers rather than assuming through research that certain rifles are not as accurate.

Imo after one tries everything including tailoring handloads and the rifle is still not accurate, then there is more viable ground to stand on.

Bigsqueeze
I do agree with you concerning accuracy but I still like to try to find reviews from a lot of different sources.Some reported fair accuracy,mostly in 308 but a lot reportes 3-4" groups at 100 yards,giving the very thin barrels as a possible cause.

I have read a lot of reports of great accuracy with Rugers full size rifles,except for the short period when they had barrel issues with a second party supplier.I don't have any personal experience with Rugers.

I had no accuracy issues with my Ruger compact's in 7mm-08 and 308.

FWIW, have you considered the Winchester Featherweight Compact?

I know stainless and synthetic stock is good for something that may take a beating and I have a few. However, that first deer rifle given to a child may be one he/she holds on to for life and may be passed down to their next generation. A classic rifle may be in order.

Again, just my two cents.

I had a chance to buy a Ruger American today that had 4 rounds through it. The fellow said it kicked too much.

She is going to need something under 6 lbs and in 223.I tried her today by letting her shoot my Sako L579 243.I had to help her support the barrel.I just held on at the sling in case she dropped it.She was able to get it on her shoulder and fire a shot.

I watched how the recoil affected her.It gave her quite a surprise and she nearly lost her shooting glasses from the blast.I give her credit though,she wanted to shoot it again,and did with about the same results.

She is only 8 years old 4'4" and 65 lbs.It looks like I am limited to the Savage UL Hunter 223,CZ 527 in 223 or Kimber Montana 223.She is probably not really big enough but I taught her gun safety last season by allowing her to carry her BB gun with us sguirell hunting.She has been watching our deer all summer and really wants to shoot one this season.

..........The newer Ruger compacts do have the thinner barrels. My Frontier`s tube is thicker. But it is also heavier with a listed weight of 6.75 lbs before scope.

But with that stated, a few makers manufacture thin tubes.

Thinner barrels or not, one needs to still go through the vetting process to determine which powders, which bullets and which OALs (bullet jumps) any individual rifle prefers for best accuracy.

Lets assume you buy a Ruger compact or any other brand of compact rifle. No matter how much research you do or how many opinions you get, there are no guarantees that you won`t get 2" to 4" groupings using factory ammo regardless of rifle brand you buy.

And if you did, I can almost guarantee ya that if you tailor the loads to "that" rifle, your groupings will shrink considerably.

Using factory ammo should not be any benchmark for determining best possible accuracys from any rifle. Only reloading experimentation assures that.

However there are a few cases (probably in the vast minority) that no matter what is done, a rifle just won`t shoot well.

While I do agree that experimentation and possibly some alteration will help most any rifle's accuracy,I have found some rifles over the years that just shoot better.My Sako rifles have out performed any centerfire I have ever owned,with many different factory loadings.My stock Anschutz will outshoot any other stock rimfire,I have ever owned.

I do think there are very few rifles produced today that just shoot bad, but wouldn't anyone rather buy one that had a lot of good reports rather than one that had a lot of bad reports?
The most important thing in that is to take anything read on the web with a grain of salt.I don't automatically disreguard a rifle because of a handful of less than steller reports,but I am cautious when I see a pattern from a lot of different sources.

Having said all that,I haven't completly disreguarded the Ruger Compact Hawkeye.I was just reporting my initial findings,while searching for reviews.

I hesitated recommending the Marlin XS7 because the one I own absolutely refuses to feed from either side of the magazine. It's the heavy barreled 308 and essentially a target rifle for me, but if it is supposed to feed, then it should feed. But it certainly does not!

I will add one more to the list not on your list, a Stevens 200 in 223 for multiple reasons.

1. Inexpensive, less than 300.00 if you shop
2. Accurate (typically)
3. 22" barrel and fairly light
4. Stock is easily painted to match the daughter's vision and improves the ugly
5. Good truck gun for Dad if she upgrades
6. Good donor action for resale

I would not put a lot of emphasis on your daughter's ability to hold steady from a standing position. I would put a lot of emphasis on her ability to shoot from the bench then from field positions because it builds confidence.

Based on your daughters age, height and weight, she'll need a LOP closer to 12".

BTDT with both my boys and numerous kids I've introduced to hunting and shooting.

I wouldn't discount the NEF Youth rifles.

My youngest son utilized a NEF Youth Lite Handi-Rifle .22 Hornet for a few years. Synthetic stock (11 3/4" LOP) 20" barrel and weighed in at 5 1/4 lbs. With 45gr. Nosler Solid Base bullets, he took several deer, exotics, and feral hogs.

A hammer extension is available, which makes it easier to cock (especially with a scope mounted).

After my youngest son out grew the Hornet, I gave it to my pard as he has three youngsters. They've been laying the whammy on deer and hogs too.

Remington 700 is another option. Stocks are easy to come by, and relatively cheap.

A Kimber Montana .223 is indeed a very nice platform.... but is definitely not cheap. Extra Montana stocks I believe can be purchased through Kimber. Every once in awhile a stock shows up on Gunbroker.

I managed to snag two via Gunbroker, and cut one to 12" and the other 12.5" LOP
My future grand kids will be well provisioned!

FOsteology
With the Montana 223 is it your plan to try to put the cut stocks back together or just purchase a new stock when they are older?

Even though it's not easy for me to spend that much,I try to practice the cry once principal whenever possible.I do however hate to cut such an expensive stock,knowing she will need a new one in a few years.

When we tried some youth models at a local GS the Youth Vanguard stock seemed to fit her,though it was way too heavy.The owner measured it at 12 3/4" when I asked him the LOP.

No, I currently have three stocks for my Montana .223

In addition to the stock (unaltered) on my Kimber Montana .223, I was fortunate to snag two extra Montana 84M stocks off Gunbroker. One was cut to 12" and the other 12.5" LOP.

That's the way.

There are infinite #'s of rifles available in mostly standard LOP's. Makes sense to buy a donor stock and modify it, eventually adding spacers in front of the butt plate as they grow (save the bobbit).

note: With care, a Japanese saw and simple miter box can do the shortening w/o chipping the edge.

And another worthless no help statement from swampy.

To add:
7. Comes in 1 in 9 twist for heavier deer bullets.
8. Factory youth stacks available for low prices.

A Ruger Compact was my son's first rifle (a 7-08) and at 10 years old it was perfect for him, and he is definitely small for his age.

It was easy to handload 120 gr. bullets down for him and the muzzle blast was never a problem.

Having the shooter handle the rifles and letting them pick certainly is the way to go though. Having a rifle they are comfortable with makes all the difference.

Ruger Americans on sale at Wholesale Sports this 4th of July weekend. $249! At that price you can get another full size stock 5yrs from now and still be ahead of the game. Good luck.

http://us.wholesalesports.com/storefront/template-resources/pdf/US4thofJulyFlyer2012_Lowres.pdf

the CZ carbine, has a stock with more LOP or at least it feels that way because of the drop in comb. it actually fits me well, a kid, not so much. if you shorten the stock it would work. the ruger american, they put a really thin barrel on that gun, I wish it was more along with lines of what tikka has.

Get the Rem Model 7 youth version that is currently available.

You will over time regret all the other options that you have listed so far, save for the Kimber (which is the way to go if money is not short). Why start the kid with crap, knowing that they will want to get something else as soon as they know better??? Try to get the kids something that they will be proud to own, useful, and which they can keep for the rest of their lives. No eventual gun loony ever runs around rejoicing that they got to start out with a Handi, a Stevens, a Marlin, a low-blow Ruger, etc!

"There's never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it again."

In fact, why not cough up the cash for something like a used Kimber Classic 223 from Oregon. Your family will be passing that thing down to your great-grandkids.

An expensive gun doesn't make sense for an 8-year old.

I'm fairly set on the Kimber Montana in 223,though I've been looking into a Ruger 77/357 just because the weight is so close and we won't be shooting over 100 yards anyway.At half the price of the Kimber it is tempting but I don't think it is nearly as refined and I'm not nearly as excited about buying the Ruger for her.

DakotaDeer
I agree with you about getting something she can be proud of and continue to use all her life.When looked at in that light,it is a fairly small investment.

pal
I agree with you as well,but only as far as not getting something they can easily destroy.That is the reason I won't go with fancy walnut or extra emblishments like on my Sako Forrester Deluxe.I think the stainless synthetic Kimber should hold up as well as a cheap rifle to abuse.Even if it is treated rough,some flitz,epoxy and paint,should put it back in shape.

Within reason I wouldn't worry too much about weight. Set her up with some shooting sticks and she will be fine.

I still own and use the first gun I bought myself when I was 10.

And the second gun I bought when I was 11.

Sold my third gun, purchased at 14, to my brother.

Still use the fourth gun that I bought when I was 16, and the plan is to give it to my oldest son when he hits that age.

Let's see--I think there was two or three in there that I got rid of that I bought as soon as I turned 18.

Still use my main rifle that I bought when I was 24 and just graduated college.

Point is--starting with junk isn't where it's at. If someone is too poor to afford anything else, then I can see the need there.