OK Gents....

I have a short action M-70 stainless that I'm looking to rebarrel.

Looking for a lightweight whitetail rifle for the Adirondacks.

Already have a .280AI Montana and a .280 FW...so 7mm bullets are on hand.

Also have 100 pieces new .358 brass.....for a caliber I've not yet owned

Not a need obviously...just an itch that needs scratching.

Opinions?

Fire away!!

284 works better on a Long action. But is a dandy cartridge.

444 Marlin would be my choice. There is a guy on here with lots of Adirondack experience and he says that is the thumper you need for there.

Me, if feeling the need to go 7mm then I'd screw on a 7mm08 tube.

Since you get 7mm's and want something different go 358.

Steely...444 makes a lot of sense, no doubt....just a cartridge I don't love.

I was being sarcastic as that dude is an idiot.

If it was me, I'd do a 25 caliber of some sort for certain, but you didn't ask about 25's.

If you're hung on the 284 case then do a 25/284.

I have one of those...the 280 Remington..

.358 Win. .35 cal bullets are pricey but the cartridge is a good one for hill country.

225gr Sierras should do nicely...

If your Win doesn't have a block in the magazine and can use the full winchester magazine.. its taylor made for the 284. the 284 is a squeeze in a remington box at 2.8, but the winchester at 3.1 is plenty of room for most all hunting bullets.

If it were me, I would ask myself

1) will I shoot over 250-300yds? if the answer is no..point to the 358 win

2) Is there something about my current 280 that would keep me from carrying it in the woods? (does it have a long barrel or a very high power scope? If your current 280 is a handy rifle to carry, I can't see what you would gain with a 284 that is just the same. might as well build a 358.

If your current 280 is unhandy then you could build a shorter,lighter, handier 284, that still has some reach.

Both are fine cartridges and despite seeming very different, they both cover about 90% of what a person would do. a 284 will kill a deer at 15 yds just fine, and putting a bullet on target at 350 yds isn't that hard with a 358 win. Between the two is 90% of all the hunting most of us will ever do.

1) No...shots are typically well under 50 yards.

2) No...280 is light, 22" barrel.

Good argument for the .358!

A 243 in a LIGHT rig would be sweet, just for conversation.

yep, would let the magazine decide with the 3.1 for the 284 and throat accordingly & if 2.80, the 7-08.

the 358 recoils significantly more in a light rifle and a waste of lead for deers...be a good cartridge to put holes in fat bears, I imagine

considering you have a 280FW, a light 7mm do appear redundant...sell the 280...:)

a 6.5x284...

.243.......7-08......6.5x284.....focus fellas!!!!

Damn...plain Jane .308???

I'll never sell that .280....one of my faves.

How about 338 Federal ? Nice rifle for the woods.....

You guys are killing me.....

I'd go 7mm-08 or .308

Plenty of room in the Model 70 S/A Box for most 7mm bullets,in a Rem 700 I'd go L/A.My .284 shot great with 140NPs. Monashee

Glad to see you posting!

That is about as far down as my focus ever focused...

If I were to do a light deer rifle for still-hunting apart as if I didn't have anything else and had a 3.10 magazine, I'd do a 7x57 or 7x57AI with 140g. There is always a chance (where I still-hunt) of seeing something really big poundage-wise and the terrain is wet or nasty thick, so tracking is a PITA. Still-hunting shots are seldom perfect... Would want a decent hole with enough velocity for lots of expansion with a cup & core and quick enough off the recoil for a second shot with a bolt...which has been done...:)

The 358 & 444 & their big-bore ilk thump me more than they thump the deer.

JMO...ain't an evangelist

Oh yeah, on the focus part, better change that to 284 for ya

I'd still do a 250AI, as big as I ever need for deer. Focus? Foc you....

But he do have a M70 so I guess a Roberts or 25/284 would work great.

Aren't you still hunting midgets though?

The 25/284 with 100g is on my list of more chit I want but don't need....

.358

The Roberts has potential...GFY

Actually I like that a lot.

Doable is a short action?

Roberts would be great in the longer/short action Winchester.

I'm trying to figure out how I could argue in favor of the .284, but keep coming up empty. The .358 seems to be a clear choice, given your current rifles and hunting conditions.

These are deer we are talking about, right?

25/284 is the Roberts on crack. No deer is safe.

Yep, but I can't come up with a decent reason to add a .284 to his current mix of shootin' sticks. No doubt a .358 is overkill for deer, but there were only two choices.

Thanks Steelhead,brain radiation started testweday,9 more to go,it sucks but I can see my keyboard a bit yhis morning.Thanks again.Monashee

Big gnarly Adirondack deer, which are clearly tougher than the average.

To be fair, black bear season overlaps with WT here. Often bears are targets of opportunity, and can run 300+ pounds.

I say build a .44-.223 Thumper ...

I'd sell the Freakin' bolt action and get a proper still huntin rig, like a 336, 94 or 760.

Originally Posted By: Mule Deer

"The 7x57 needs at least a 3.1" magazine, but the .257 was designed as a 2.8" overall-length cartridge from the get-go, and works fine in a short action. I have owned a bunch of them, and 2 right now, and the supposed "advantage" of a long action with 115-120 grain bullets amounts to about a 2% (theoretical) increase in muzzle velocity, or about 50 fps with heavier bullets, which means zip in the field. In reality thye variations between different barrels will be that much.

I have always been able to get 2900+ with 115-120 grain bullets even from the short actions. The published +P data will do it these days. If extra velocity means that much to you, why not just get a .25-06 or .257 Weatherby? Those will get a LOT more velocity out of a long action than seating the bullet out on a .257.

The other factor is that standard .257 reamers (and all factory ammo) are set up with a throat for 2.8" ammo. You can get the throat lengthened, but why? Get a .25-06 and an extra 150-200 fps without leaning on the poor little Bob."

Steelie's got me thinking....and the Roberts has panache...

I've modified the title accordingly..

I like the .358 Win. It's overkill for deer, but I'm just fond of it. Put a 1/12 twist Douglas #3 at 21" on the action and stick it in an Edge stock. Should come out around 7lbs with a Leupold and DNZ or Talley's.


....or go .243AI with a fast twist in a light contour in an Edge.

You don't need no more stinkin' 7mm's....

I could like a 7lb .358 all up.

Well shoot, now you're under-gunned.

See the quandry I'm in?

I know a lot of folks like to get all the performance possible out of a cartridge and in the 358 that means maybe 2600 fps in a 20" barrel with a 200g give or 2500 with a 225g.

If you really talking 50 yds give or take and as a person who hunts the Adirondacks, you would have to work to find a 100 yd spot. The 358 works very well when loaded more mildly. a 200 at say 2300 is plenty for any deer (or Adirondack bear) and kicks a hell of a lot less.

I have three 358s at the moment and one is fairly light a 20" #2 tube in a MPI LW stock. Its not pleasant with a 225 NP at 2550, but quite a bit different with a 200g at few hundred fps less.

My current favorite deer rifle is a 250AI and its a fine rifle for a lot of purposes. but if after hunting for a few days with out seeing a deer, I busted up a buck in thick stuff 20 yds ahead and had about 2 seconds to make a shot at a rapidly disapearing deer (an unfortunately common occurance for me hunting in the Adirondacks) I would rather have my 358. I know dozens of other cartridges would work as well, but one of the small luxuries is carrying just the "perfect" rifle for a task.

"lightweight whitetail rifle for the Adirondacks" - you don't need a 358. If you want to keep it light, go with a cartridge that's hard on the deer but kind to you. I'd recommend a 7-08 as a maximum, and consider a 243 or a 260, as well. I'm a fan of 308-based rounds, and for good reasons, I believe. It's a great case design which promotes accuracy and efficiency, and you won't have a problem finding good brass, either.

noKnees...your post makes a great argument.

Many shots will be on fleeing deer, time for one quick snapshot.

Shot placement trumps all, we all know, yet there are times where a bigger hole = more blood loss.

Course I could just blow one of his legs off and track him all day....a pard of mine did just that....no fun.

Sell the M70 as is.

Buy a new Kimber 84M .308. A landmark rifle.

I have .358's. It's fun, for a while, to say you use one.

Other than that,

Why not just combine the two and build a 358/284?

.358 Win

i have tried everything i could think of and am back to the Bob. i use it most for varmints since i live in ohio but 120 grain bullet would handle those black bears, and any deer that walks, no?

and consider ammo that doesn't burn a handful of powder every shot, no recoil or muzzle blast to speak of, and you get to say "a Bob" when people ask at the rage lol

A quandry? Figuring out how to put man on the moon was a quandry. This is an impossible situation.

A 358 in a bolt action just seems wrong to me... kind of like a bolt action 30-30. Yeah, I got one, but it's just "wrong".

284 has the cool factor and will have everybody drooling over it at camp and the range.

257 or even the more classic 250-3000 are also fun.

The pre-64 Winchester 70 was offered in .358 as well as the Roberts, so both make great sense in my mind.

Wish Winchester had offered the .284 in a featherweight...

Just do the 358 Win already and shoot 200 Gr Hornady's. I've never had so much fun bustin rocks with my 18-1/2" barreled 358.

The .358 is FUN for what it is. I shoot a 6.5lb bolt gun and with 200 grain factory loads I don't notice the recoil at all. If you start pouring in the powder and using heavier bullets I'm sure you'll get a rough return.....but with lighter 200 grain loads it's a glorified .35 Rem with little recoil, low report, and excellent performance on game a close range.

It's not the perfect deer (or anything else) round, but it is a neat round...that is a lot of fun to use while still hunting deer.

My vote is for the 358 Win. I've hunted a few times up in your neck of the woods near Ballston Spa. I shot a big doe at about 150 yds with a 358 Win and it dropped in about 4 steps. Just factory ammo out of a BLR.
Big hole and blood trail. Dead when I got there.

Dan

you could always go with a custom wild cat 284 case necked up to .358 bore , or even better a 300wsm k\necked up to .358

350 WSM

I vote 300 Savage.

If legal in NY, a quick twist 22-250 or 22-250AI could be built light in weight, light in recoil, and quite deadly with the appropriate bullet of your choice. My Marlin XS7 parts gun in 22-250 has a 1-9" ROT barrel and shoots 60 grain Partitions as well as I can shoot.

As noted, the 55mm case length of the 284 can cause COAL issues with heavier bullets in a short action.

My limited experience shooting whitetails with .358" bullets in the 356, 358, and 35-284 has shown that at least one bullet, the 220 grain Speer FP, is so tough that it showed little expansion while going through-through an average size whitetail. I switched to the 180 grain Speer FP and got quicker kills, but has to ask myself if there was any reason to go with a .358" bore rifle and shoot light for diameter bullets.

My vote is for the .358 Winchester. You should be able to get .358 200 Grainers in both protected point or RN in bulk. www.midwayusa.com Many times they are on sale. Use pistol bullets. Or Hornady has a 180 gr SSP, use them for varmints or reduced recoil loads. Rifle bullets from 200 gr to 310 gr Woodleigh. Cast bullets in many styles. You can buy solids, softs, or Barnes X. I have a few 358 Winchesters and plan on two more at least. Use commercial cases or get Lake City once fireds from Midway. Run them through a small base .308 die then one pass in the .358 WCF. Usually they are a tiny bit shortened after the 358 die but check them anyway for length. Then load them with a couple less grains of powder than recommended for the velocity you want. The military cases are quite thick walled. My whitetails have never gone a dozen steps after hit with the 200 gr bulk Remington bullets. Good luck whatever way you go.

............That scratching you`re doing, all boils down to your desire for more caliber diversity. Meaning, you`re looking for something different to use other than a 7mm.

As some have already mentioned, I concur with the 358 Win followed by the 338 Fed. I`m guessing that most if not all of your kill shots within the Adirondacks will be at 250 yards and less? A 30 cal addition might be a little too close to the 7mm you already have, whereas you have a greater diameter separation going with the 338 Fed or the 358 Win.

Cannot go wrong with any round based on the good `ol 308.

Both the 338 Fed and 358 Win make excellent short and medium ranged woods cartridges. I reload both rounds for friends.

My .257 Roberts, purchased used, is my favorite rifle and does double duty for varmints to elk. If I were building or buying new for a deer rifle (fewer varmints) it would be a .260 Rem or a 7mm-08.

You need to get out more......

SAKO .358

Ok, everyone seems to be set on the 358. I have had a 284 Win for over 20 years. It is different, will fit a short action, and works. I can back off on powder and kill without a lot of lost meat. It can be loaded up to give a bit of extra. I have used mine to take white tail and black bear. It has also been on a Colorado elk hunt.

You cannot go wrong with a 284 Win.

I can't see the point in going 284 if the OP already has a 280 and a 280AI....

Do the 358, you won't regret it

With a 280 and 280AI on hand we have already reached the rarified status of not needing much of anything else.They will both oblitertae whitetails and mule deer anywhere,brush or open.

257 Roberts.

Well that's a buzz (thread) kill.

Obviously not a need.....leaning towards the 358......

25's put the skids on deer better than 35's in my experience. Not that either don't kill but I expect a deer to go further with a 35 than a 25.

the pendulum swings....

223/284 20" brl

Bob. Since you have the brass you'll be able to justify the .358 later on.

I've 100 rounds of .358 ammo, no gun....appreciate your situation. Bob first, then the .358...trust me.

have 150 300H&H brass waiting....

all horseshit aside, if "many of the shots are at fleeing whitetail" the Roberts would not be on my short list...unless they all flee sideways

particularly if they are in the 200# dressed class....YMMV

308...

That's the rub....a hunter would be lucky to see one good buck a season still hunting. For that matter, even party hunting where drives are employed one shooter a season is not a given.

You'll typically have one good shot at a deer, the second will be at a deer moving at warp speed, the third, if you can still see the buck, will be a hail Mary.

Last good buck I killed came off a mountain where I was on watch.......moving along steadily, hit him first shot, shot twice more at a buck who was moving.

No reaction from that first shot, I actually thought I had missed. (.280 Rem with 160 Partitions BTW)

Only the first shot connected. Buck was an 11pt 136".

My primary rifle is the Kimber 280AI, with a VX6 2-12.

The .358 would be sort of a "Change my luck" rifle. Hopefully for the better!!

That has also been my experience with Partitions--quite dead but not as much reaction to the hit--they are tough bullets for larger game. Prefer a solid reaction so I know if case he vanishes...cut hair can be found provided you know right where he was...:) Lots of expansion with enough weight to travel from really bad angles as they head south at warp speed...

I'd suggest rereading 260's a & Steelhead's posts again on the 358...but they do kill stuff--no argument there.

Shot a bunch of deer with the 338 mag at a lot higher velocity and with cup-n-cores. I quit after after shooting a three-legged badly wounded arrow hit buck and he walked another 35 yards to fall into the water...I also received a fair taking of the "knock-down" power.

FWIW, IMHO...

I guess I must just get all the pansy deer in NY because I've never needed anything more powerful than a .30-30 or .243 to get the job done with one shot. Course I do refuse to shoot a deer in the azz no matter what. Did it once with a .30-06 when I was a kid and vowed never again. Hit the deer a couple inches left of the bung. Deer went down in the rear but continued on dragging it's hind quarters and bawling at the top of it's lungs. Another shot to the neck finished it. Ruined alot of prime eating in the hind quarter, tenderloins were tainted with gut and the dressing job was extremely unpleasant to say the least. A deer deserves a better end and I figure if the only thing I've got to shoot at is rump I have no shot at all and I pass.

Monashee
Good to see you back punching the keys. Have faith brother. Cheer NC

+1 Good post.

So sorry it's like that in your turf. 'Cause I'm not going to pass judgement on turf or style I might question why bother? Competent still hunters throughout the SE would probably argue the quote above. Someone tell me that who hunts down here I'd tell 'em to head back to class and get remedial training.

I don't know anything less productive that sitting on a tree stand.

New York is divided into northern and southern zones.

The reality is that there is no agriculture in the northern zone, which is where the Adirondacks lay. Deer density is low as a result.

Southern zone is rich with agriculture, high deer density, but also multitudes of hunters. Southern zone tends to be overhunted, shotgun only in places. deer don't get a chance to grow large racks.

In the Adirondacks the deer that survive the winters tend to be bruisers, so if you see one, it will be worth the effort.

200# + on the hoof is easily the average.

Dressed our camp has averaged around 170 or so.

And a bad day in the woods is still better than a good day at work.

I know of three camps around ours. Most guys hunt bolt actions in .30-06 or .308.

Still hunting lessens your odds further. I have killed using stealth, but my largest (the 130") was driven to my watch.

Blackheart, whereabouts do you hunt?

Okay, that's definitely not bad. This is what I envision when I hear 358. Classic featherweight lever action weighing 6.5 pounds with 22" barrel that would be a great woods gun (not my rifle, btw, it's another campfire member's). Don't know that I'd hunt with the Sako, but I could definitely get used to the looks.

I typically hunt two areas in NY, WMU 5H averages .7 killed per sp mile, nearly all are bucks as the gun season is buck only. Its pretty typical to see only a hand full of deer hunting here in a week and if one is a buck your doing good. Deer densities are low enough that stand sitting is generally considered unproductive and most folks still hunt, do large scale drives or track in the snow and hence many of the deer you see are already alerted and often on the move. Because most of the forest here is protected forever wild and hasn't been cut since Teddy Roosevelts day the forests are generally very mature and hold only perhaps a fraction what good deer woods do in VT/NH/Maine. (its also pretty dam likely there is similar terrian in VT/NH/ME, but I was lucky enough not to have found it.)

The other area I hunt is 9H is pretty typical southern zone for NY the deer kill is around 11.8 deer per square mile. Most days your going to see multiple deer per day and you can generally pick your deer and your shots.


There is a good reason most folks don't travel to the core of the Dacks to hunt. 50 years ago the forests were younger, more productive and success rates( at least among the families I hunt with) were higher. Even today if you look at the towns in the adirondacks with the highest whitetail kills its in places where there is some "edge" not in the areas where its largely old forest.

You might ask why do you hunt there? Well hunting big woods in the snow is a peaceful and challenging way to hunt. Its nice to know that you can walk all day and not cut another track ( at least until you get back near the road. Its also where I started hunting, its home to me. Its also true that the northern zone season starts earlier than the south, so you have two choices in the early part of the year, watch football or hunt(or travel somewhere else)

9H ain't "typical" southern zone hunting with 11+ deer killed per square mile it's HIGH as in among the highest, if not the highest in the state ! All of the southern zone is NOT high deer density. Where I do most of my hunting these days {Catskills state forest land} ain't much different than Where I used to hunt in the Adiriondack's. There was just a deer kill per square mile map in NY outdoor news a couple weeks ago giving the figures for all DMU'S for last season and the area I hunt is listed as .5-3 deer psm.. I guarantee I could blinfold you and drop you off in the state forest land around here and you wouldn't know you weren't somewhere in Hamilton county.

See my post above.

358.

If its thick where you hunt I'd go with a 444.....

Gee, that sums up SE Alaska, except I didn't see a mention of 15 feet of rain.

With that in mind, a 223AI was my favorite and a 250AI not far behind for that type of in your face, still hunting.

I'd go the 358 Win and the 200 gr TTSX as it flatazzed worked last June on all manner of game from springbok to wildebeest and gemsbuck out to 250 yards or so. Most that opine a view have one that is either dated or have no actual experience. That said, if you are chasing whitetails about anything will work...

A 180gr TTSX in the 358 might just be about perfect for slinging at deer from all angles. Much like many cartridges slinging a TSX/TTSX, lending one to believe the bullet matters more than the headstamp, though placement likely trumps them all. Who woulda guessed....

I'm with Steelie on this on. Ive hunted some open and some thick stuff for deer. lots of rifles and loads will do the job. Im out there to shoot deer, not vegetation,so hot and fast works as well as big and slow, so long as whatever it is lands in the right spot...

358 with a 20" tube. If not, 308 will do it all in those 6 million acres.

The .308 has also crossed my mind...

As have the .358 TTSX....

I imagine you are better off putting the most thought into the rifle to appreciate and differentiate its purpose from the others you have...finding consensus in cartridge or bullet considerations just lead to a larger circle to go around...

Absolutely. The rifle is alot more important than the cartridge. Light to moderate weight for easy carry, well balanced for offhand shooting, fast and quiet to put into operation. Those things matter far more in a suitable heavy cover still hunting rig. Someone who places the cartridge at higher importance than the rifle marks himself as a neophyte.

^^^^^^^

That.

retraction--add rifle to above list....

Agreed....and yet there will be times where a shot must be taken right now regardless of angle or presentation.

I never run into that situation.

I have heard Hal Blood lecture, and he has not achieved your level of proficiency...nor have the Benoits. Those men hunt big woods bucks in similar terrain.

You'll have to give me the benefit of your experience....I'm always willing to learn....

I've read their books and know they are willing to take shots I'm not. The fact that I've still hunted an area of big woods with relatively low deer density for the past 14 years and have killed 14 bucks with 14 shots is all I need to prove to myself I don't have to take bad shots to enjoy consistent success. I have passed on a couple of real good bucks in that time because I didn't have a good shot and don't regret it.

I have hunted NY State since 1947 when I hunted with my Dad and carried a Daisey BB. I have shot deer and seen deer shot with a variety of guns and various ammo. My first deer was a yearling doe shot with a 22lr. Shot her in the white spot under the chin. I think I was 13 then.

Since then I have seen them fall to 22Sav Hi Power, 222, 223. 243, 250-300, 257Robt, 257Robt AI, 25-06, 25-06AI, 6.5 Carcano, .284Win, 303Brit, 30-30, 300Sav, 308, 30-284, 300WSM, 32Spl, 35Whelen, 358WSM, 38-40, 348Win, 20ga, and 12ga. 50cal muzzle stoker. No doubt there is something missing.

I began hunting Star Lake, Oswegatchie area (NW Adirondacks)then Hunted Tug Hill area about 10 yrs, Gloversville, Stamford, Oak Mtn. Trammel Creek, another 10 yrs, Delaware County another 10yrs, Steuben County 13yrs and now live in Columbia County, East of the Hudson.

I am currently tuning a 22-250 highly modified TC Encore and a 6.5X55 Ruger #3. for my continuing hunt in this state.

By far my favorite rifle for NY belongs to one of my sons. It is a 20 inch barreled stock, Browning Micro Medallion in .284. Very light, quick, accurate and a devastating killer.

The same son has a Pac Nor barreled, push feed, Mod 70 Win in 284. The 3.1 length afforded by this short action and the light weight make it ideal.

Load a .284 with 120gr. Nos BT or 120 Barns TTSX and watch them fall. The combination works in the dark swamps of the North Country, Old Growth Forrest, the skrub lands of Tug Hill and all across the Southern Tier where the deer are thicker than hair on a beaver.

Give that .284 a long look.

Best to you,

Jim

Yep

Run a 308 130 gr. Barnes TTSX @ about 3100fps,close your eyes & pretend that it is a 284. Or a 7-08,Or a Bob Or a------? The list goes on & on.

The .308 is the greatest rifle cartridge in the universe!

All my ADK bucks dropped DRT to a .308 or .280

The 84M in .308 is as perfect a rifle as I need, any nicer wood an I wouldn't want to bung it up, any uglier and I would wnt to be seen with it.

A Montucky in .308 tickles my fancy a bit though.....

Sigh....

Probably my favorite close cover rifle today would be my Ruger M77 RSI cjambered to the .308 Win. However that is only because Ruger does not chamber it in .358 Win.
Now I have never hunted where the OP hunts but I have hunted the northwest cornor of Calicornia in that rainforest where is w deer runs much more than about 25 yards, you've lost him. I've used the .308 or 30-06 in that country with handloads using very warm loads with 170 gr. 30-30 bullets. hard on meat but better than losing the whole animal. A few years back I did an elk hunt on the Olympic Penninsula and some areas were so thick tou couldn't see an animal until you stepped on his toes. One that caifornia hunt I would have wished for a .358 but it hadn't come out yet. In that Washngton state rain forests I again was thinking about having a .358 Win.
These days, somehow I ended up with four. Two Ruger M77s,a Browning BLR and a very nice Savage M99. One Ruger had such pretty wood that I put it into a McMillan stock.
Any one of those rifles would have been great on those hunts. I wouldn't have any qualms using any of them on an elk hunt where shots would be 300 yards or less. Dunno why the gun writes say the .358 or .35 Whelen for that matter are "short range" brush guns. The last elk I shot was at 350 yards with my .35 Whelen and a stiff charge of Re15 and the 25 gr. TSX bullet. I'm seriously thinking of taking one of those Rugers and putting it into an RSI stock. I'll bet that it'll be just as fast handling as the one I have in .308. You eally have to see the smack down a .35 caliber does from either the .358 ot the Whelen to appreciate what they can do.
Paul B.

Interesting thread,hearing different opinions on what works in brush;I guess I come down with Steelhead and Ingwe and Blackheart on this stuff as I tend to use exactly the same rifles and loads back here in New Brunswick,Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont as I do in the west.And add the central Canadian provinces into that asw ell...I abandoned the brush rifle concept years ago after I found out that big bucks in these places can be seen up close and personal, as well as 350 yards away up power lines and logging roads,across swamps,etc....and for me these conditions can all occur in a single day of hunting.

Same can be said when hunting mature mule deer bucks out west that don't read the script about being an open country animal.

My three favorite cartridges/bullets for all this stuff is a 270-130 NPT,a 280/140NPT,and a 30/06-165 NPT;and all three chambered in a light bolt action with 22 inch barrels.I have also used the 7/08 and 7x57 with 140 NPT for this hunting and would be happy with any of them.

These loads IME swat deer of any size in the brush;they may kill faster than heavier partitions because of the higher velocity...I have noticed the 140-7mm for example, is a quicker killer on deer of any size with lung hits than a 160 7mm, which is a pretty tough bullet.But put it on bone and results are pretty dramatic.The partitons listed above are all capable of raking a buck from ALMOST any angle if you should bump into that sort of situation along the way...it can happen to any of us.

I have heard the arguments in favor of heavy bullets in mediums.One fellow up in Sask showed up with a 350 Rem Mag singing the praises of the rifle and cartridge,its power,and everything that went with it....on the next to last day he shot a smallish buck and literally shot it to pieces to kill it...I got lucky that week and killed two good bucks with a 270; one pushed out on a bush drive,and the other at about 30 yards back in the woods...neither got out of sight,and those 130 Partitions fully penetrated on the three shots it took to kill them both.I guess my luck on that hunt was better than the other guy's.

I have had similar results with the 280 and 30/06;but have tried 150 gr bullets in the 06 and will use them but have to hold my nose along the way....

Ok, and I'd have zero qualms shooting one in the cheerio with a 22/25 slinging an X bullet. The faster, the better.

I'll not throw one just to throw one if I'm not certain the goodies are in the path.

Too much 'East Coast Brush Rifles' Field & Stream reading as youths on the 'Fire.

Providing they are not internet deer, of the three original options, the Bob will work just fine with less shoulder thump..... Has for many, many years around here where hunting conditions are not much different from those listed. And I would bet our deer are as large or larger here in northern Minnesota....

A .250 Savage is going to see extended time in the woods this fall to determine if it is "enough"... or maybe a fast twist .22-250.

260 rem

Some of you may recall this rifle......

http://24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2873277/My_new_to_me_Custom_Winchester

I spoke with Kevin Weaver today, I'm going to do a .284 Winchester, #1 Krieger, PT&G Aluminum Bottom Metal, McMillan Edge.

Kevin is going to open the Mag Box to an OAL of 3.100

Rifle will be throated for either 140 Partition, Accubond, or 150 Ballistic Tip.

Nothing the other two rifles will not accomplish, just an itch needing scratching....

Oh, and Bob......my Mashburn Donor is inbound, also to Kevin in the same package.....

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/12122628

Another itch.....nothing my 7 Dakota will not do...but what the Hell.....lots of range time with a pair of sevens....

I think the term overkill is nonsense, and certainly in the case of the 358.

It makes a great bloodtrail in the thickstuff, and on rainy evenings you cant have a good enough trail. I almost could not find a deer that was 5 feet away from where it stood when I shot it, but the absence of a blood trail got me down on my hands and knees in the thicket and there he was.

With a 7mm I would have not expected a big blood trail and would have wandered too far, it would have gotten dark, etc.

358 is a perfect caliber from 35 Remington to 358 norma, for deer.

Great choice - you will really like the 284 win cartridge with that magazine box length. I have one of very similar components but with a Bartlein #3 fluted. Goes about 6-11 bare.