Sent an email to Forbes asking about their new stainless steel rifles. Had heard a rumor that the rifle were not all stainless. Also mentioned the 243 and the silly 10 twist.

Me:

Sir,

I was curious if your new stainless rifles are all stainless, or if they use a chrome moly bolt with a stainless receiver? Also, I think it is a mistake designing the 243 with a 10 twist. I would be interested in purchasing a 243, but the slow twist holds me back from stabilizing the heavier VLD type bullets. The mag length is there, but I can't use it! If this was an 8 or 9 twist, I would likely buy one.

Thanks very much for your time!

Forbes:

The bolt will be an alloy steel bolt. You may be interested in the 7mm08 than, it has a 1/9.5 for that very reason. We may actually change the 243 but for now its going to stay 1/10. Let me know if the 7mm08 interests you, we use a 3" mag box in that model as well.

So. The rifles are not all stainless. Lame. The 10 twist 243 is, at least for now, here to stay. Double Lame.

Guess I'll just keep my rebarreled Remingtons and Kimbers.

I'm curious under what circumstances a 1-10" on a 243 would ever be better than a faster twist.

Pretty much any time you want to shoot one of the many 100gr+ offerings out there.

Whoops, misread your statement. Fast=good, slow=bad.

I could live with the bolt. Would prefer stainless, but it's not a deal killer for me. The 1/10 twist on the .243 is a deal killer...it would be so nice with that mag box and a 1/8...and it appears ER Shaw makes a 1/8 barrel...

I might look into a 7mm08 or .308, but have no interest in the 1/10 .243.

They were close with that 3" mag box, but that twist is certainly puzzling.

Though the alloy bolt is probably just fine, it kinda pisses me off. Between the fluted bolts, slow twists, and now "stainless rifles" that aren't actually stainless, Forbes is doing a good job of sending my business elsewhere.

I just emailed requesting they pursue the 1/8 twist on the stainless .243's. I'm in for one if they do. Hopefully they'll get the message. Wouldn't hurt for anyone thinking the same to email and let them know:

[email protected]

[email protected]

Pretty standard for bolts on stainless rifles to be cm. I know Borden actions are like that. It helps prevent galling

CM actions/bolts don't bother me, so long as the tube is stainless. I've alway been curious as to how much more a typical SS factory Rem/Win/Ruger barrel costs versus a CM/blued version. Is it $30? $40? I know that I'd gladly throw and extra $75-100 at pretty much any rifle if an SS barrel was an option. For that matter, make them standard on synthetic offerings and charge a bit more. Aesthetics is a non-issue in that department anyway. The guy who is interested in buying a Remington 783 isn't thinking about how handsome his new purchase is, but I bet he'd lay down another $40-50 if he was getting something that wouldn't rust where it mattered.

Ruger and Kimber SS actions have SS bolts. I believe Winchester is SS as well. Remington is SS with CM lugs, IIRC.

The alloy bolt isn't that big of a deal, but as someone who isn't a gunsmith and doesn't have a fraction of the knowledge of those at Forbes, it is puzzling why they would use a slower twist rate.

As mentioned, the stabilizing issues seem like it would be prohibitive on a caliber like a .243.

I guess my question would be what benefit to them using 1/10.

It puzzles me that many barrel makers, primarily those providing less expensive barrels, keep insisting on offering slow twist barrels in calibers where the trend has been toward longer bullets requiring faster twists. Heck, with the trend toward banning lead, almost all barrels being offered could benefit from a faster twist just in case.

Same can be said for most rifle makers.

It amuses me that many rifle makers have begun to supply bolt action .223's with faster 8" and 7" twists yet continue to offer .22-250's with 14" and 12" twists. If Ruger offered a Varmint or Tacticool .22-250 with an 8" or 9" twist I'm sure they would sell.

So close, but yet so far.....

It amazes me that companies still ignore simple solutions that would directly impact their bottom line.

I will never buy any 6mm again without an 8 twist

These dumbasses everywhere in the industry act like stainless is Kryptonite and fast twist tubes are Sarin gas. I tend not to buy cars without paint and don't feel the need to buy a rifle that'd rather rust than not.

Correct, most stainless steels are too close together on the Brinell scale to not gall. You need a spread of at least 10 between the two steels for it to feel smooth.


Pick up one of the old boat paddle Rugers in stainless and run the bolt. Those things are sticky pieces of [bleep]. Then pick up an SMLE, buttery smooth.

The odd part is, you don't need to be a longrange shooter or a fan of VLD's to need a faster twist. The move towards copper is going to make a lot of twists too slow. You would think companies would see the writing on the wall.

There is no down side that I can see. You can shoot light bullets in fast twist barrels too

American Rifleman show is on with a 30 min. Program about Melvin now. Inside look at NULA. Seems like an honest, decent, hard working entrepeneur to me. Sometimes there are business decisions that have to be made in order for your product to be both profitable and widely accepted and useable by a broad spectrum of consumers. For MOST folks, the twist rate will work fine. For MOST folks the CM bolt wont be an issue either. I talked to him earlier in the week about getting my Colt Light Rifle worked on, and was very impressed with the amount of time he took out of his busy schedule to discuss what will be a very low profit job for him. Free market economies are great... we have the choice to spend our money where we choose and benefit from a competitive market by getting quality, innovative products at a relatively cheap price. If you like the specifications of the Kimber better, buy one, if you like the specs of the Forbes, buy it. If you like neither, you can put a custom gun together to your personal preferences for not much more than either one.

Not many guys on here are going to be satisfied with any production gun out of the box, but the forbes looks like a good starting point if you like lightweight, abuseable hunting rifles. Me, Im starting with my Colt that I picked up dirt cheap and for another1200.00 im getting a quality barrel of my choosing, trigger, stock and bedding and the action slicked up so for a few hundred more than a forbes Im getting a gun to fit my needs.... If the Colt wasnt available, I could live with the forbes.

For those same folks, the 8" twist for 6mm would still work fine, AND it would work for those who want to go the VLD way. So why not?

Fluted Bolt... triple lame, but the NASCAR crowd will love it no doubt.

I was actually contemplating a 6.5x55 with chromoly receiver and stainless barrel until I saw they drank the koolaid and went with fluted bolts on everything.

With it being marketed and sold as one of the lightest production rifles available, Do you think it's possible that the bolts are fluted to save a couple of ounces?

You are the only person I know who is appalled at seeing fluted bolts on ultra light rifles.

I don't mind some fluted bolts but the Forbes version does look goofy to me. Maybe in person they look ok but the pics don't do it any favors.

Funny, Melvin never saw the need on his ULA/NULA rifles... guess why?

They save almost no weight (under one ounce) and collect and channel dirt and water.

Unlike show ponies, I actually use my stuff...

Like I said, you are the only person shocked to see fluted bolts on lightweight rifles.

Personally, I could care less as I'm strong enough to hunt with a 7 - 7.50 lb. rifle and don't pretend that I'm a show pony climbing Everest on every hunt.

Wrong.

Here's Forbes reply on Facebook to my question about the purpose of the flutes, and whether all rifles now include them:

Unfortunately we are only making them fluted now. I can tell you Billy, the flutes on this rifle are very slight. So slight in fact that they didn't even change the weight of the rifle. We decided to flute it from customers requests. For example our AK and Canadian customers needed it so they could clear debris like ice in the winter, and that fine power sand found in TX. for our southern hunters. Also, the fluting on this rifle has the phosphate so it won't wear off and gives you about half of the raw steel exposure than with the old jeweled bolt. I hope this helps your decision to go with Forbes Rifle.

NULAs don't need flutes. Forbes puts them on purely for bullschit looks.

Bingo.

If you want the "one size fits all" approach, be careful which size you pick.


P

When you buy production guns, sometimes you might have to make concessions. Personally, I don't care for fluted bolts, but like they say, it is what it is. Sounds like Forbes is listening and communicating with potential customers and may even make some changes accordingly.

Pretty sure my Stevens and Salvages were not SS. They all got surface corrosion.

What's the deal with the safety on the NULA/Forbes? I've seen comments about the guts being exposed. This along with the twist would seem like show stoppers.

I said I thought they are lame and the NASCAR crowd would love them.

Not sure how that translates in your brain to "shocked" and "appalled", but apparently it does... must be a tough way to get through life.

If you asked for a fluted bolt raise your hand!

If you asked for a fast twist 243 or 260 raise your hand.

Fast twist wins. Who are they listening to?????

I think the more folks that ask for a fast twist the better chance they will put one out. I've contacted them and asked for a fast 260. If they truly listen to the few who asked for the fluted bolt it should be no problem to get a fast twist. Riiiigght!

Speak up! Send in your opinion. Facebook folks are ranting add your opinion. Send Rick at Forbes an email!!

You have to keep in mind that people on this site are a very small portion of the market. Joe Blow doesn't have a clue about twist rates and how they impact bullet choices, but he can show off flutes to buddies in hunting camp who think they're uber kewl.

THIS!!!! I don't care about flutes but it sounds like they did it in response to customer requests...I can live with or without them. I would prefer stainless, but can live with the non-stainless bolt. A 1/8 twist .243 makes or breaks the rifle for me. It sounds like they listen, if you want a quicker twist, let them know....I did.


rcampbellforbesriflellc.com

cbozziforbesriflellc.com

Praire Goat,

The reason most makers don't use stainless bolts is that stainless is notorious for galling when two stainless parts rub on each other. This happens with all steels unless there are 10 points of hardness(Rockwell C scale) between two interacting surfaces. Most receivers are Rc 30-32, bolts would have to be Rc 40-42 which would
be very hard to machine in high volume. With stainless it would most likely require plating to prevent galling. As for the 8-9" tw.
more shooters use std. bullets than use VLD's for hunting.

What manufacturers don't use stainless steel bolts on their SS rifles? This keeps being mentioned, but all I've heard thus far is Borden and Savage.

Exactly... the early M700 SS's had chromoly bolts (plated - I had more than a few) but switched to SS bolts after a few years.

It's a "solution" in search of an actual problem.

Genius, Why TF do you think Melvin never made a NULA with a SS action? Think he might have a tad more knowledge of metallurgy than you? The fact that former DOD engineers decided to go with a SS action/CM bolt, and the fact that the introduction of this iteration, which heretofore has never existed, is taking a while, is what is known, to the "enlightened", as a "clue".

I've always thought all the 700 bolt heads were chromoly as well as the bolt body if it is jeweled. I think the handle is stainless on stainless 700's. Could be wrong though....

Stiller (although they nitride their bolts now), BAT, Kelbly (such as on the Atlas stainless action), Defiance to name a few.

Sounds like actions with tighter tolerances are less apt to use stainless bolts in their stainless actions.

Why do some people think a fluted bolt is a problem regarding dirt and water? That dirt and water is there regardless of whether you see it on the bolt, or it sticks to the rails or ends up in the mag well. I guess it makes people feel better if they cannot see the existing dirt instead.

Re the fluted bolts, I am going to guess and say that maybe the Forbes and NULA's looked a bit too similar, and that the reason for the change could be driven by marketing. As someone stated earlier, since NULA never felt compelled to flute over many years, why would Forbes suddenly feel the need to do this for "functional" reasons.

I have an older Forbes w/o the flutes, and a new one with them. Personally, they don't bother me, but I think the original non fluted looks better. The flutes on the new Forbes are *very* shallow, and seem to me to be cosmetic in nature.

As to the rate of twist on a 243/6mm, I have a question about faster twist rates. In the Nosler manual, it states "a twist rate that is too fast can cause light weight, lightly constructed varmint bullets to literally spin themselves apart".

Has anyone ever experienced this? I wonder what was driving Nosler's statement. Is it more prevalent with larger calibers? I would think that there must be a point of diminishing returns and/or worsening performance with too fast a twist for a given caliber. Just curious......

FWIW, I have never gone heavier than 100gr out of my 84M in 243 with it's 1 in 10, and haven't had any accuracy issues yet.

The adults are talking... you may have overlooked the FACT a LOT of finely ENGINEERED rifles use all SS receivers and SS bolts. All SS revolvers have been in use for 50 years.

Chromoly bolts in SS receivers is an exercise in pole vaulting mouse turds, but that seems to be what you're good at.

I think you may be right about that.

I haven't handled a SS M700 in a good ten years, and memory does funny things...

700 SS used a SS bolt body with a CM head. Brad, are you seriously trying to say that actions like Borden and Defiance Machine are substandard because they use a CM bolt body ?

You f'ing dumbschidt, none of those other actions weigh 20oz.

This^^^

CM bolt doesn't bother me at all.

Melvin with tell you a CM action is stronger than stainless and will take higher pressure before letting go, and that is why he doesn't use stainless.

I bet the guys at forbes just stay up at night thinking what they can do so the vast majority of people wont buy their product I mean why else would they use chrome moly bolts with flutes and twist the .243 1-10

and poor old Melvin what does he know he has only been in business since well.........he was eighteen fixen and makin guns danged old hillbilly last time i talked to him he was well past 7000 ultra light arms rifles built by his company.

Opinions very. If you like it buy it if you don't don't buy it.
When I had Melvin build my Nula, they would not flute bolt or barrel. Bolt just made action weaker, and made barrel not be as accurate. SS action he wouldn't make because they couldn't get the tolerance as tight as it needed to be. Makes me wonder if milling is better now or tolerance not as good on Forbes rifle. Maybe that's part of the $2,000 plus difference.

Never said it, or implied it. Just said it's a solution in search of a problem.

What ever happened to reading comprehension?

I see you're in the bottle early. The Kimber is quite close. Almost identical. It's all SS.

What were you saying then when you said the use of CM bolts and SS bodies, were a solution to a non existing problem (paraphrased).

There are a whole bunch of actions that use SS bolts without any problem. If Forbes/NULA has such tight tolerances that it's a no/go, then so be it. I personally see it as an issue.

Not only because it is marketed as a stainless rifle (and it's only partially so), but also because an action with such tight tolerances bothers me.

The first purpose of a bolt action rifle is to function well. This is more important than absolute accuracy. I've noticed my ULA is so tightly put together that it doesn't like to operate real well when dust or particulate snow is introduced to the action. It works, but the amount of debris that makes it sluggish would not even be noticed by a Mauser 98 or a Ruger 77.

It's not just VLD's. Try a 90gr E-tip in a 10 twist.

But the point being, that those standard bullets shoot just as well in a faster twist, so why not twist the frigging barrel right to begin with.

Just had an Email from Rick at Forbes in response to my question about a fast twist 243 or 260,

"Possibly a faster twist on the 243 but not no go on the 260 at this time. Have no fear, things are on the drawing board "

Keep pestering him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The squeaky wheel wins!!!! Hopefully....

Good to hear! Fingers crossed for a 1/8 .243.

Actually, he's never cleared one.

Still thinking about the 1/8 243. Anyone heard what they've got on the drawing board?

I spoke with Rick last week. They are still "thinking" about a faster twist on the 243 and are aiming to have the stainless actions ready in early 2015. I told him that I thought he'd sell a bunch more guns as soon as they could get those two features into production.

Personally, I told him I'd vote to get rid of the bolt flutes as well, but again they don't bug me really.

Waiting on my 20B.....

Thanks for the update!

Stainless 1/8 barrel is the biggie for me. The other stuff I've got preferences on but can live with either.... If listing preferences, I'd have the .243 in a 22 or 23 inch barrel rather than the 21 inch, but again, it ain't a custom gun.


Will Mr. Forbes rebarrel one of these?

I'm pretty sure that NULA will not work on a Forbes. I can't remember which company told me that, as I have talked to both in the last month. NULA will work on a CLR though. I was close to getting a NULA stock for my CLR 7RM, but decided to put the money towards a 20B.

^^ Nope. There was a Melvin-worked Forbes rifle for sale on this site just last week IIRC

In that case, I stand corrected.

I missed the one listed here. The following is listed on gunbroker and it looks like he will:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=400394081


Opps....after a search it looks like it's the same rifle.

I spoke with Melvin on the phone about his work over. He checks the action, rebarrels with a Douglas(your choice of chambering/twist), beds the stock, then paints it to your liking. $650.....