There are a couple threads about the Kimber MT and Winchester EW. I have one of each in 308. They're absolutely two different rifles.

The EW is a phenomenal all-around rifle. The MT is a phenomenal backpack/highcountry rifle.

The EW settles-down infinitely better for shooting. It's absolutely a better rig for day-in, day-out hunting, and certainly a much better platform for LR shooting.

The MT excels as a "pack" rifle... that's its raison d'etre (ultimate purpose), packing up some hideous landscape with a lot of other weight in tow.

Would I sit in a tree-stand with a Kimebr MT? Nope. I would always prefer the Win M70 EW. Ditto out on the flat, wide-open.

The Kimber 84M/L MT really comes into its own as a backpack/highcountry rifle... a place where a rifle is carried more than shot. The MT can be made to "settle down", but the difference is like a dory vs. supertanker on the sea. I'd rather be in the supertanker in a storm. But I'd rather pull a dory onto the beach than a supertanker!

Some visuals:



Winchester M70 EW 308 Win, McMillan Compact Hunter's Edge, PT&G Aluminum Bottom Metal, Graphite Follower, Talley X-Low Lwt's, 3.5-10x40 CDS, Uncle Mike's Mountain Sling, 4 qty. 165gr. rds:





Kimber 84M MT 308 Win, Talley Low Lwt's, 2.5-8x36 CDS, Uncle Mike's Mountain Sling, 4 qty. 165gr. rds:

Nice write up Brad and while I agree on some of your points, my .308 Montana shot really well out to 600 (far as I shot it) and would regularly hang up MOA or better sized clusters at 500 yards (155 Scenars and IMR 4064).

Both really nice setups...

Tanner

I always say there is nothing comparable to a Kimber Montana.

But nobody ever seems to know what that means.




Travis

Both are nice. A little more weight really helps on the pack, IMO.

Like the old preacher said; "It's better felt than telt."

Good post and nice rifles.

I could easily take either of those and be happy for any type of hunting I do.

For me, a Montana is just as good as an "all-rounder" as any. And I do quite a bit of 'stand' hunting.

While they're not quite as comfortable from the bench, or really any target shooting scenario, my groups at 528 yards (my field don't go to 600) with my 7WSM Montana were just as good as any of my heavier rifles.

Great write up...both very nice guns

Agreed, both rifles are excellent. I just prefer a Model 70 Classic G Series with McMillan Edge. Putting together another 100rds this evening for a trip to the petting zoo with GW after Christmas. I've got another lightweight 308 in a Sauer 202. It weighs about the same as the Kimber Montana, it to loves the mountains.

Shooting lighter rifles accurately is a skill that takes some practice. When I got into them I found I struggled with guns under 7lbs. With much practice however the gap has narrowed to the point that the difference in accuracy is no longer substantial in hunting scenarios

I think a rifle as light as the Kimber forces you to be a better shot... you have to pay attention to all the fundamentals more carefully, every shot.

Sako, that's my 308 SS FW... I sold it to Scot, he sold it to you.

That's a great rifle!

How much weight savings did you get from adding the Mcmillian HE stock and the PTG bottom metal? I'm presuming weight was a primary factor in the swap, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks!

Brad,

I agree with your opinion at the start of this thread. Good groups at the range don't help much when you're out of breath and trying to get the crosshairs steadied up at 300 yards on an animal that only stops moving for a few seconds. I much prefer heavier rifles for all around hunting conditions and my kimbers are left to the days when carrying absolutely trumps shooting.

I have a lighter .308, and it is absolutely true that you really have to focus on solid fundamentals. It is very easy for the groups to really open up. Shooting light rifles is definitely a skill set.

Finally, someone besides me who likes silver/stainless bases and rings on a stainless rifle...nice!

Those little Kimbers are like wands. I mean, they knock me out every time I handle one in the shop, but WOW are they light. I'd have to run one a while to know if it was perhaps even too light for me. My short action M700 MR in an ultralight 'glass stock sometimes feels a little unsubstantial when shooting, and the Kimber is lighter still. I absolutely agree, a really light rifle will amplify and inconsistencies in your technique. A really light trigger helps a lot.

My 8400 series (WSM) "perch belly" Montana is a more substantial-feeling rifle. And, going from .325 to 7mm in bore size made a noticeable improvement in how it "hangs" from offhand. Heavier up front.

Jeff O

The 84m kimbers are in fact too light for some applications.

The problem is they are so addictive to carry that I wind up with mine in my hands more than I should.

My buddy has a .308 MT..... he had a "mad minute" this year involving filling both deer tags in very short order, and commented on this stuff. I think he said it came up FAST but was hard to settle. He's hunted scores of rifles...

My 7-08 MR is in that ballpark. It's in a blind stock, and I put a PT&G aluminum trigger guard on it, and a Gre-Tan shroud. Talleys and a 2.5-8. It's light.

On the flip side, I lugged my new heavy 7 WSM on my backpack hunt this fall. It was awesome to have when it was time to shoot, but it suuuucked the rest of the time.

The Edge stock is going to save 7-8 oz over the factory stock. In this case the PT&G bottom metal is only going to save 1-2 oz. The older Classics came with 2 piece steel bottom metal and you'll save 5-6 oz on those. The EW comes with 1 piece bottom metal with aluminum floor plate and steel trigger guard so it is not that heavy.

Why the hell did I sell that rifle!? Hahahah oh well at least I have Brad's 7mm-08. I hate this board.

Thanks JMR40

Opinions are all over the place, but I much prefer a rig weighing around 8lbs all up minus ammo. Especially if the the long ball might be an option. Just how I roll.

I'm actually shocked that the weights are so close. The EW comes in way lower than I expected.

Two elk lived to hump another day this year because they only offered me shots for a split second on the far side of 250. It didn't matter in the end because the third one gave me an easy 40 yard offhand. I'm pretty sure the first two would have been dead if I had a different rifle.

Heading to the range this morning to shoot the .308. Last time I shot this rifle it put 3 shots in the same hole and the last two through the same hole only 1/4" apart from the first three. 46.5gr Varget, and the cool thing is both the 150 accubonds and 150 partitions shoot the same POI. Yea..I'll never sell this rifle.

One 155 Scenar from the first ridge in the background... Shoulda' kept that one!

Tanner

I've always thought the lighter rifle should not shoot as well in the field, but my informal comparisons have not supported that. I've shot groups at 100yds offhand with the 84M and with a much heavier rifle. Really no meaningful difference. I do think long range where you can use a bipod or rest is better (easier) with the heavier rifle. I'll have to play with this more and come up with a more definitive answer.

I tend to agree with Brad on the rifle weight and shooting comments. Recently acquiring both a LA and SA Kimber MT, I'm surprised how well I shoot them offhand.

A question on the McM Edge on the EW - what pattern is it? I had my 300 WSM EW out last night and am seriously considering an Edge for it. I don't dislike the B&C EW stock but really like the McM series. I suspect I won't save much weight as my EW B&C SA weighs ~ 28 oz. All of the Edge stocks I've gotten have weighed 23-24 oz with 1" Decelerator affixed. I also don't like the Edge Compact - it is too short for my likes.

Another good thread.

Has anyone here ever tried a series of cold bore, first shots,with their light vs heavy rifles, from various field positions,and watched where they go as opposed to shooting "groups" in a series of three or whatever?


And done it over a few sessions to watch what happens?

I know groups are wonderful things but can't recall the last time an animal hung around long enough for me to shoot a group on them.

It seems to me that's the only measure of "shooting well", from a hunting perspective,that really counts(?)

Agreed.




Travis

I'm going to make my Kimber a .243 just so I can shoot it more in one session. After about 20 rounds with the 155's my shooting starts to suffer.



Travis

What is EW weight as shown above in the B&C, closer to 7-12?

Yes. We use milk jugs.

To the 400 there is no difference. For me.



Travis

I'm gonna ask Rick to put this guy on a syllable restriction.

JFC.



Travis

This is what I do. The two rifles are much different (although both .308) one being a Rem Mtn. rifle, bedded in an Edge, Rifle Basix trigger and a Leupold 2.5-8 CDS in Talley LW's. Never had it on a scale but it's light.

The other a Rem VSF, bedded in a H.S. stock, Rifle Basix trigger, Leupold 4.5-14 CDS also in Talley's. My loads will shoot equally well in either but the most accurate tend to be Scenar 155's.

I've shot both to 800yds (really hard to find a place to shoot distance here-that is "long range" for my area), off a bipod with rear bag. I've confirmed the range card for each rifle with each load I'll shoot and give them cold bore first shot runs and then groups of three. The only noticeable factor is both will print to slightly different point of aim if shot cold/clean bore.

It is easier to do "tight group" work with the VSF but keeping it on steel (vital area) is not difficult with the Mtn. And the lower magnification is not a problem to 800yds.

Travis/David kinda figured that would be the case for the guys who shoot a lot.

Montana is pretty much a turn-key deal, not so much with the M70. But 1# of rifle is hardly enough to worry over...

It is if a weekends worth of living is loaded on your back.




Travis

Yeah man...... Six cases of Bud Light can weigh you down... thank god for 6lb rifles.

6?

I'd be a millionaire if that were the case.




Dave

That's a half Nalgene bottle of water or a good schit. Flask of hooch instead of beer if you must....

Not all backpackers maintain your level of incredible conditioning. Some seem to think one pound on a single piece of gear is significant.

Great advice on taking a schit. I'll keep that in mind next time I'm about to walk up a hill.



Dave

Half rack weighs 9lbs....

Flask weighs about a pound....

If you're looking to save weight.... and pack a week's worth of relax..... we can get that done for a couple of Grams here in CO....

For those that were wondering...



Factory EW Handle:



McMillan Hunters/Compact Edge (with bedding):



4.8 oz difference.



Factory EW Bottom Metal:



PT&G Aluminum Bottom Metal:



1.4 oz difference.



Factory EW Follower:



USRAC Graphite Follower:



.9 oz difference.



SO, Total difference between factory and aftermarket is 7.1 oz's.

To be fair, had I bedded the factory EW stock like the McMillan it would have added at least .2 oz's making the difference between those two at least 5 oz's.

I essentially agree, out to 400 yards in controlled conditions, it's doubtful there's much difference.

Ditch the bipod, run stairs til' you're heaving, get some adrenaline going, and do it at 8,000' elevation, and I contend you'll see a difference.

On a Saturday? No thanks.



Travis

My sentiments exactly.

That's why I have both... a lightweight and a midweight.

Yeah, to me the silver rings look like an extension of the actual receiver, wrapping the scope visually to the rest of the rifle. Black rings make it look like the scope is floating on top of the rifle.

Personal preference, and I've done it both ways.

Make sure you're uphill from anyone else. Should test an old adage, take pics!

As to an additional pound not making a difference on a backpack hunt, I've absolutely found it does. Course the difference between my two 308's is 1lb 5oz's.

A rifle isn't carried on one's pack like all the other gear is. It's a "dynamic" load, ie., it gets slung, carried in the hand(s), cradled, etc... 6.5lb's of rifle is not experienced the same way 6.5lbs nestled in a pack is.

And besides, ounces make pounds, and pounds make misery. Take care of the ounces, the pounds take care of themselves.

This years pack out... a pound doesn't matter. Like hell it doesn't :

Agreed. Anyone who has lumped a pack or tree stand that weighs 2 more pounds than the other guy will start bitching sooner!

Brad, what do you do with all your Elk antlers? Awesome stuff. Thanks for these last few threads. If on;y I were right handed. :-)

Very informative Brad. Thanks.

Bud Light? Yuck. If it can't be Guinness, tear up that BFF application that went out in the mail this morning.

I definitely agree that a pound makes a big difference. Lugging chit up and steep in the thin air definitely makes a difference for me. The older I get the more a pound seems to weigh.

Couple GRAMS? Yowsa! The rastafari backpack hunt <g>.

A couple grams of modern high grade product equates to, I dunno, a KEG of beer. Ish.

In a fit of democracy, we joined the Free World last year and now have that legal backpacking buzz option ourselves in Oregon. The Horror.

Man, they're stuffed everywhere. I gave away all the 5pt and smaller stuff. Garage walls are full, the rest are in the crawl space.

They're becoming a problem

Laughing. I bet they are!

Brad...you could shoot smaller bulls for weight savings also...lol

Ha 7-08f beat me to it.

Good write-up Brad this is helpful.

I hope y'all have a Merry Christmas!!

I love my 300WSM EW and 84M in .308. I will sell every rifle I own before these two go. My Remy Ti in 06 has gotten lonely.

As Brad said, not much difference in 7-08 w/ 150's and 308 w/ 165/168's!

Buy both, stop this mental abuse. Merry Christmas.

From this morning. Yea..sure glad you sold me this rifle. Lots of love for lightweight hunting rifles, especially model 70 Winchesters.

Brad is turning out some great threads lately. I've been a long time lurker here but always appreciate his perspective.

Nice write-up Brad and even nicer rifles.


I have a 6.5lb 270 and an 8.5lb 270 both scoped with 6x36LR's.
They both have a purpose but obviously it would be wise to fill the huge weight gap and complete the deadly trifecta with a 7.5lb 270.

Sam that's funny....like most of us on here, you're beyond hope.


Merry Christmas!

lol

I "need" at least 7 308's...

Something on an AR platform or FN FAL.
Lightweight bolt.
Midweight bolt.
Heavyweight LR bolt.
Pracitcal bolt (scope in detachable mounts/open sights backup.
Savage 99 F
Custom Mauser with drop-dead wood.

I have found that I like the heavier 84Ls better for the reasons stated in this thread. The extra weight and 24" barrel help with stability, and I run a little heavier scope and mounts on these than other guns. That plus a Montana sling and ammo gets the rifle to a well-balanced 7.5-7.75 all up, which is perfect for me. All in a rifle that comes from the factory with a good stock and barrel and needs little to go hunt.

The Kimber below in 25-06 was used hard last year, taking several animals, including an elk, and covered a lot of miles. I decided to use factory ammo (Hornady American Whitetail) and forgo cleaning for a season to see how tough Kimbers really are. Incredibly, the box style trigger didn't even fail! Also, like most Kimbers I have shot, this one will do 1/2"-3/4" at 100 hundred with several loads, including the above mentioned Hornady and I don't think I have even bedded this one.

Can I carry a 9-10 lb rifle for miles in the back country and at elevation. Yes I can, I've done it in the past and could still do it. But at 57 it is even less pleasant than when I was 17. If I really needed a rifle that heavy to get the job done I'd carry one that heavy.

But carrying 1-2 lbs of dead weight that adds nothing to the hunt makes as much sense as taping a brick to the barrel of your gun. I don't lug around unnecessary weight just to prove how tough I am.

i have used lite and heavy rifles elk hunting but you guys should try carrying a compound bow with quiver and arrows elk hunting in the mountains,that`s when weight and size is hard and I am 62 years of age,but our freezer is full again this !

.

Brad how is the EW shooting for you?

Great thread. It's always good to hear from those who can and do deliver on a regular basis.

Thanks Brad.

I am glad I am not the only one with a .308 "problem".

Excellent thread, as always Brad.
I was lucky enough to try out a few 6 lb. class rifles that belonged to JimF if you remember him. It convinced me to not go below 7 3/4's lbs. loaded with a sling.
I didn't realize for many years just how important weight was until I started playing around with a 26 inch barreled, 10.5 lb. .308. Shot two five shot groups one day, once I learned how to read the ever changing wind, at 547 yds. Both groups, five shots each, were shot from a sitting position with a military style shooting sling. Both were 6 inches across.
There are a few things one can do to help a light rifle shoot better from field positions. One is to build the rifle with as long a barrel as you can tolerate. The other, is to use a good shooting sling. At present, my favorites are the 3 pt. Ching Sling and the African Ching Sling which works with only two attachment points. E

I have always maintained that balance and feel are every bit as important as is weight; even when just carrying.
I generally carry the rifle in my hand when I am packing in and I really want it to fit comfortably in my hand and balance well. Weight isn't super critical but there are some limitations, of course.
I have an old Model 70 which I have always liked (a 308 Norma) but it weighs close to ten pounds, all up. After a few miles my old, arthritic hands have had all they want. As long as the rifle is under eight pounds though, I'm still OK. When an eight pound rifle becomes too much, I should probably quit the whole backpack thing.
Please understand, I'm not saying a person shouldn't go for a lightweight rifle; saving weight everywhere just makes sense. I have just never been so inclined; mostly because I already have all these old-timey rifles which weigh a bit. I also still carry a two burner stove on my back! GD

I would love to get a stainless Model 70 this year. However, I wouldn't have the funds to customize it like you have. So, if you were to keep everything factory stock on the Model 70, would you get the .308 EW, or the .308 Stainless Ultimate Shadow?

Scot, the EW is a tackdriver.

I've also got a 270 problem

E, I really liked Jim F... do you see him anymore? If so, give him my regards. IIRC he was managing a backpack shop around Truckee?

My idea of a great, all-around rifle weight is 7.25 - to no more than 8lbs all-up.

At least 15 years ago when gunsmith Dave Gentry was still with us, he and I were discussing rifle weight in his shop. He's one of the progenitor's of the lightweight rifle from "back in the day." He told me he took one of his sub 7lb wonders on a sheep hunt and hated how it didn't settle down well for the kill shot. He subsequently went to a 7.75lb all-up rifle.

I'll stay with a sub 7 lb rifle for a sheep hunt, but I do know exactly what he was talking about.

GD, two burner stove? Coleman would applaud you

Bob, thanks man. Happy New Year.

El, what I did was find a used EW, sell the factory stock and bottom metal, and drop it in the Edge. Helped mitigate the cost.

Barring that, and staying with the factory handle, I'd prefer the EW over the Ultimate Shadow...

Well, a guy has to have a few "problems" to stay sharp. Me, I have to figure out how to "rattle can" my 84L with the rub marks it acquired earlier this week.

Haven't seen or heard from JimF in quite a while, Brad. Last I heard, he finally opened that ski shop he always dreamed of having. Since he was really putting in the hours to make it go, he didn't have time to post here anymore. He's one of the really good guys.
Yeah, rifles and what works is a really fascinating subject. Particularly if you have the Rifle Looney Bug and really need to stay away from gun stores. Like me. E

First off, Nice write up Brad, I followed some of your final polishing steps that you have posted on the campfire to help slick up my EW.

My EW is my favorite rifle, although in .300 WSM, and I'm on the lookout for one in .308 to go with it.(But other rifles keep causing me to stumble and go off track, I should just stay away from pawn shops and gun stores, or stay off the Campfire) Mine comes in at 7 lbs. 13.4 oz with a Leupold 3.5-10x40 CDS and factory stock. To me it is a perfect all around weight, and a good shooter to boot.

No sling or ammo.


My lighter weight .308 R700 is a little harder for me shoot as accurately but still nice to carry and as light as I would want for hunting in Alabama.

Scope not mounted, but on the scale with the gun.


I really like Brad's taste in rifles and if I was in good enough shape to climb mountains the way he does, I think a Montana would be a slam dunk for backpack hunting.

Bob.

How does the 84L Montana compare to an M70 FWT/McM Compact Edge, both in .30-06? Are the weights closer?

PG, yes, they can be made much closer, within approx 1lb of each other.

An M70 Fwt 30-06, with McMillan Hunters Compact Edge, Talley Lwt's, 6x36 Leupold, PT&G Aluminum Bottom Metal, Graphite Follower, Butler Creek Mtn Sling, 4rds will come in at 7lbs 7 oz's +/-

An 84L MT with barrel cut to 22.5" (how I like 84L's), Talley Lwt Lows, Leupold 6x36, 4 rds, Butler Creek Mtn Sling, will come in at 6lbs 8oz's +/-

Bob, I think the EW platform is one of the very best for the 300 WSM... thanks for sharing.

When it comes to weight, I'm torn. I have a 10lb 308 that certainly sits rock solid at the shot. But carrying it in the mountains is not a joy. On the other side is my 5lb 13oz 84M. Carries great, shoots well at typical ranges, but not as stable. Although I'm not convinced the difference has a functional impact on big game hunting performance. I want to look into moving weight around. Weight near the center of mass does little to contribute to stability, while weight away from the center is helpful for stabilizing. Think of adding a pound to the magazine; will that stabilize it much? No. Add that same 1lb weight to the end of the barrel. It would be very stable! What I want is to remove as much weight as possible from the center of my 84M (scope, rings, bolt, trigger guard, magazine, etc.) and add it to the end of the barrel. Not sure how yet, but that's my thinking. I want the best of both worlds.

22.5" 84L is the temptingist of temptations.

prm, had the Kimber Montana come with a no.2 contour instead of a no.1 contour, I'd call it a nearly perfect rifle.

In other words, I agree with you. I like a weight-forward rifle.

Understandably.

What I'm considering in a re-barrel is a 23" fluted barrel, leave the last ~4-5" unfluted with .575-.6" at the muzzle. I think it will balance nicely, yet remain light and should buy me a few FPS putting a 180 BT/AB at just over 2800 (nice round number). I'm also playing with the idea of making a carbon fiber mag box. The stamped steel bothers me.

I've been leaning more this direction myself. I had a magnum contoured 223AI "Faux SAUM Ti" and liked the balance a lot more than the MR configuration.

Thanks very much for this. The Featherweight is my favourite rifle, but I keep giving the 84L a sidelong glance.

I also like the weight forward a little. The M70 EW SS in a McMillan Hunters Edge has a nice hang to it. The FWT in same stock points slightly faster, hangs pretty well too. Both feel pretty good to me.

A 26" bull barrel can be pretty steady offhand.

Brad, .30 cal Montana's are almost too thin for me. I love the 243, 270 is thin enough.

Brad,

Given this I was always puzzled why you cut barrels? Not argumentative, just respectfully curious.

Mine's a 338. It's really thin and light!

Hi Ed, makes perfect sense to ask the question.

For me, it's a function of "feel" and the way the rifle looks. I'm 5'10" and I like a rifle with a shorter barrel. It just feels "righter" in my hands. I also don't like how long the 24" 84L barrel is in relation to the forearm. The 84L MT cut to 22.5", feels very close to the 84M MT with its 22" bbl.

Would say too, I've never found the loss of an ounce and a quarter (that's what you lose going to 22.5") makes it really feel less weight-forward. The barrel really needs 4-6 ounces out front to feel enough different to me.

Anyway, just the subjective fetishes of a rifle looney...

Brad thanks for the write up. Very informative info about 2 rifles I like very much.

I finally got my hands on a Montana last year. I can see what all the fuss is about. I traded into this 243 which has a custom 20" #3 contour fluted barrel. Weighs 6 1/4 lbs as pictured. Extremely well balanced and handles great.

You traded into it? What the heck was wrong with the other guy? That looks about perfect.

Do you know who did the barrel work, and whatever else was done?

Thanks

Very interested in hearing more about the custom work on that 243.

This is what I know from the previous owner. The work was done by IT&D, Douglas air gaige 20" #3 contour, 1 in 9", .662 muzzle, action bedded, barrel floated. Pic of the #3 in the barrel channel.

They did a great job matching the stainless finish. How does it shoot?

MC, whoa... cool rifle! Talk about weight-forward, sort of the best of all worlds. If you ever find the time, I'd really like to see the inside of the barrel channel, how it was opened-up and re-worked.

Great rifle.

I don't have a lot of trigger time with this rifle yet but it's a good shooter. I got it sited in for deer season with 95gr NBT's. Shot a few 1/2" groups at 100 and called it good. Showed promise with 80gr TTSX's as well.

Thanks and will do Brad. Next time I take it apart I'll take some pics of the barrel channel for you. I appreciate all the knowledge you've shared about working with Kimbers.

Who are you guys using to cut your Montana barrels back to 22"? A 84L with a 22" barrel makes a lot of sense to me. I actually prefer a 24" tube for balance and feel but find when slung over the should, that extra 2" sticking up in the air really makes a big difference. I'm tall as it is and I'm constantly snagging branches.

Scot, for me 22.5"... my local smith does mine. Any smith worth his salt should be able to cut and re-crown. It's among the simplest of jobs.

Range day. For a windy February day, seems to want to shoot.

That's pretty salty shooting!

Looks very good. Did you do any bedding before range day or did you just get out there right out of the box?

Bedded, and Ernie's Trigger Spring.

Jeez that is a horrible group, you should post it for sale ASAP while I'm still online...