So. I have inherited my Dad's 280 Rem Browning A bolt. It's a shooter even without the silly BOSS thingy on it. Yes, I have screwed it off and shot good groups without it. I just had to try it. He always wanted to make it an AI but never got around to it. So, I have researched the 280 AI some and now I want one. I have the Abolt and a Ruger Hawkeye in 30-06 that could be donors. I'm going to put a 24" 280 AI on one of them but would like to hear from those of you who have a 280 AI. From what I see the 280 is one of the better AI's not saying the 280 is a slouch. Perhaps a 280 AI and a 30-06 AI.

The bulk of the 280 AI's velocity gain over its parent is the higher pressure; only about 75-100 fps comes from capacity. I've had one and as much as I like the Ackley shoulder I'd probably stick w/ standard if I were to do it over again.

That having been said I'd leave my dad's rifle alone and use the Ruger. I'd make sure to get a fast-twist (1-in-8") SS tube and a chamber that lets me seat 162 AMax (ELD) to less than mag box length. That's where the 7mm's strength is IMO.

Good luck with the build! It's a great deal of fun with a lot of enjoyment there!

I have owned 3 different 280AI on an older Ruger 77 and 2 on Mausers.All seem to be more sensitive to the distance the bullet is of the lands.If you decide to use one of the other actions measure the magazine box to make sure you can seat the bullet about .030 off the lands.sometimes this won't allow the loaded case to fit into some magazines.
I have shot a lot of 140 Barnes TTSX which are long for the weight,but overall I think the 160 Nosler Partition is better.

Send a pm to hillbillybear.

Mine is built on a 700 , I like the 280AI cartridge it outperformes the 7mag. by a good bit .

I just had to say that .laf kidding of coarse.

What's not to like -great middle of the road cartridge -not overbore -good brass [nosler] , basically you can forget about trimming brass .
Mine was built by Nathan Dagley @straight shot gunsmithing , have shot 1" groups at 300 yards on a good day.
It loves every bullet I've fed it 162 amax/162hornady bthp/140nbt/160 accubond those combo's cover a lot of ground.

Get the Browning done -your Dad wanted or wants it that way .

I had a 280AI built this past spring using a pre 64 model 70 action, Bartlein barrel, Timney trigger and McMillan Sako Hunter stock.

I haven't seen enough (accurate) velocity increase over standard 280 to justify the AI. If I had to do it over I'd go with a 7mm Mag.

Gee...what a revelation.

I could not agree more.

2012 called, they want their cartridge of the year back. Doesn't everyone want a kreed these days??

If you want 7 RM velocities that's the way to go but not everyone needs them. Not to mention the standard bolt face the OP is starting with. As someone already said, the AI occupies a nice niche, and is very versatile. Very little you can't do with the AI. Even if the A-bolt doesn't have the 24-inch barrel you (the OP) wants, if it were me I'd just re-chamber it to AI and blaze away. You might decide you don't need a 24" barrel.

Yup.

Just never thought much of the cartridge.

Wouldn't bother with a 30-06AI. Been that route and not worth it IMHO.

At least the 208AI is popular!

I like the AI for it's longer reach potential.

I also like it because it doesn't kick (to me) like a 180 in my 06.

In fact I had a 270, and 30-06.

Now the 270 is a 9.3x62

And the 30-06 is getting rebarrelled for 280AI

Unless your shooting 160's, it's pretty much just an ugly 270.

280AI is a great caliber, but then so is the standard 280. There is a very, very small difference between the two on paper, and zero difference in the hunting fields.

A Ruger 30-06 is a reliable, rugged tool that will perform as well or better than a 280 with good bullets and handloads. Re-barreling a 30-06 to 280 is just spending good money to take a giant step sideways.

If you want to play around with a 280AI I think it's a better value just to buy one, then you end up with another rifle, but if you are not going to handload I wouldn't bother with a 280AI, and I wouldn't build anything on a Browning.

Most of this stuff just boils down to personal preference and doesn't really make much difference to the targets...but that's not a real good sales pitch.

As much as I love the .280AI I would not recommend rechambering a Browning ABolt as they can be a real pain in the ass to get factory barrels off the action.

With the boss system on a 22 inch barrel you will also wind up with a very short barrel (i.e. 20 inch range)if you have a thread cut off and set back during the rechamber process as it should be done to do correctly.

If you have a hankering for a .280AI I would suggest you have a good smith build a good rifle using good parts.

Ballistically, the .280AI is about the most bang for the buck you can get in a non-belted case.

I have two loads worked out for mine. It is the wildcat version rather than the Nosler SAAMI version and neither load is a gross overload trying match the 7Mag.

One is the 120 grain Nosler BT at around 3325 fps for use out to 500 yards and the 162 AMAX at 2850 fps for use beyond 500 yards. Both give superb accuracy and the 120 NBT is a deer slaying machine.

The 162 load could be run a bit faster but the accuracy is so good that I never chased more speed and it just plain works on targets or game.

The .280AI brass also seems to last forever with no trimming needed.

Aught6,

I've owned two .280 AI's and fooled around extensively with another. It's a great cartridge, in fact it's just as good as the .270 Winchester and .30-06 Springfield--except for the fact that you can't buy ammo everywhere.

They will get very close and sometimes equal to a 7 mag, especially when comparing to factory loads. They love a full case of slow powder like RL22

Ahhhh, scratch what I said earlier. Never had an A-bolt re-barreled, but that's why I like this site, always someone who has.

Another option to consider is a Kimber Montana chambered in .280 AI. Mine shoots great, as do all the others I've heard about. They are a joy to carry and shoot. And if you re-barrel a decent donor, you'll have about the same money in the rifle. If you go that route, check with "Shortactionsmoker" of Whittaker Guns on this forum, he has really good prices and great service.

Thanks for all the insight. Thinking I might just buy a rifle in 280AI instead if dicking around with trying to make one. I will probably thank myself later for going that route.

Aught6, I really like my two .280AI's and will finish my hunting career with them. I am a loony and small, read unimportant, details mean a lot to me. In the real world, with your dad's .280 and the M77 30.06 you've got the bases well covered. If it's a new rifle you want and you're not a loony, buy or build a 7RM. P.S. Don't tell BobinNH I said this because I've been trying to convince him he needs to try a .280AI.

I know of one person that went thru the expense of rebarelling an abolt...He spent 700 dollars putting on a gain twist barrel in 300 win mag. It would be my absolute last choice for a custom

I built my 280 AI on a Left Hand 700 and used a Number 2 Douglas SS Barrel bedded in a Bansner Stock. It is one of my favorite hunting rifles. My load today in this rifle is the Barnes 145 GR LRX bullet with H4831SC. My rifle will group the Barnes bullet 1/2 inch or better. The 280 AI vel is right in the middle between the standard 280 Rem and the 7mm Mag. Well worth the trouble to have one built.

I had two of them. One was a CRF Model 70 (not a pre-64) that I had rebarreled and the other was a six-lug Wby Mk V in 280 that I had rechambered. I let both go down the road, but this was before factory cases were available.

As I get older, I keep thinking that I should just have one rifle that will do for most everything that I hunt. I have been thinking seriously about getting another another .280 AI. Maybe after I get the 7 MSM built...

Or, if you can hold out for a while, the Kimber Hunter in 280AI will be available shortly.

The best thing about the 280 Ack is that you can use max loads from the standard 280 without destroying your brass. You will gain about 100 fps over the standard 280 in most rifles with same barrel length and while not pushing the pressure to red line.

There's a 280AI in every Mashburn fire form load.

I was going to say the same. Those FF loads are very accurate for me as well. 140's running nearly 3200 with a 65 grain charge of 4350.. easy day

Mine is built on a Rem 700 action with a 24" Pac Nor #3 contour, 1:8 twist.

I really do love the 280ai, but to be honest there is no "one thing" that makes it stand out. It's all the little things added up that makes this the perfect cartridge for me. I'm loading 168 grain bullets, been working on both the Berger VLD Hunting, and Barns LRX,

I will say however, in practical hunting terms, it doesn't really do anything a 270 or 30-06 won't do. They are all capable of taking any elk on the mountain. It's just that the 280ai can do it with more style 😎

I knew I should have stopped in Townsend last week and straightened you out on the glory that is the .280

The 280 is one of the better of the AI cartridges because you can buy formed brass. One of the things I don't like about the AI type rounds is that you have to load and pay for the same ammo twice. I get that you can hunt with loads to fire form, but nobody does that...we all load up some fire form loads, go out to the range and burn them up {putting wear and tear on the barrel} and then come home and do it all over again to get the full power formed brass loads we intend to use. It just seems like double the cost and wear on the rifle by the time you get the brass you want to load and then work up some loads in that to hunt with. With that in mind, get a cut rifled barrel...about the time you get enough fire formed cases you will have a barrel that is broke in and stopped coppering.
I have two of each 280's and 30-06's. All I can say is it's a good thing the 280AI and 30-06AI are not barrel burners. I would probably like them more if I had a set of hydraulic forming dies for each one of them. I like that I don't have to trim the brass, but I really don't shoot them that much...{an AR that I didn't have to trim for would be an accomplishment} In all honesty, yes I do like the rounds...but if I had to pay someone else to barrel and chamber them I would own something else.

No need at all to use bullets to fireform from 280 Rem. The blank load method will produce a 98% formed case, with sharp shoulders. And it's simple to build a PVC trap to use indoors, which makes it no more than a dull thud.

Yes, can't you use COW to fire form 280AI?

Yep, and 12-18 grains of powder such as unique or universal clays.

Still have to watch barrel temp, but compressed air or a fan helps speed it up

My point being...it has to be quicker and cheaper to just buy the Nosler brass. Wasting bullets is half the problem, time is the more expensive half. One other question, I cant get "sharp" shoulders with full power fire form loads and a real bullet...how does a blank do it with what has to be way less pressure????



COW to firearm 280.....Now who can argue with that????
Going to go out on a limb here and guess you meant to type "fire form" instead of "firearm".....but can you please explain "COW"??????
Again, regardless of whatever "COW" actually means, just getting the Nosler brass has to be the better route.

I can't say as I really agree with that. The AIs I have experienced would shoot the pre-fireformed ammo more than accurately enough for hunting purposes. If you don't want to do that, well, that is your prerogative, I guess. But I don't look at it as paying for the ammo twice. A standard 280 round will kill anything an AI will kill. And like you said, sometimes it aids in breaking in a barrel anyway. Or you can fireform without bullets.

I don't think it is a big deal to fireform 50-100 rounds. For big game hunting rifles, that only get shot at game and to check zero on occasion, etc., that is the brass I personally would feel I needed.

But, different strokes for different folks. We all know what we like, and that is all that really matters......

Cream of Wheat....

I guess if I did build a 280 AI, I prolly would go with the Nosler brass. As you say, why not? It is there and a luxury most AIs do not have....

284 is a nice bullet size for any game and there are more than a few great bullets available.

The improved 06 case has enough capacity to push all of those bullets to substantial velocity. It is a fine and well balanced cartridge.

I don't have any need to burn more powder than the 280/AI burns.

I never saw having to shoot more as a detriment. That's like saying I have too much money or am having too much sex, it just doesn't compute.

Interesting comments - style points. A buddy recently shot a mule deer with my .280 Rem (built on a Mauser) - knocked it down with one shot. He walked up to the deer just before it expired and the deer said: "that .280 sure has made this a quick death. If you had gone through the added trouble and expense needed to make it a .280ai, my death would be no quicker, but I could have gone out in more style".

Yes typo.....these damned computers insist on spelling for me.

If the shoulders aren't coming out sharp, it's not an adequate fireforming load. The chamber has sharp shoulders (if cut correctly). It's not a Weatherby cartridge with the goofy radius shoulders. So, a load with sufficient pressure to make the brass form to the chambers, will in fact, make sharp shoulders.

And, yes, such a load can be made with no bullet, and COW. Cream of wheat, or similar (make sure it is plain though, with no salt or additives). Shotgun/Pistol powder such as Unique, Clays, Universal Clays, or similar. Start with about 10-12 grains. Fill the case with C.O.W. and jam in a wad of paper towel, Kleenex, cotton, or whatever, in the neck to keep the filler from spilling. Fire and look at the cases, and work up just like with a loaded bullet. The filler weight is sufficient to produce enough pressure. Just keep increasing the powder charge, until the cases fill out the chamber. Same with a bullet fireforming load. If the shoulders aren't sharp, bump up the charge of powder.

Makes me like 270's even more!

Great cartridge. In fact, its magical, or at the very least lucky. By all means, go 280AI. I'm pretty happy with my Montana, couldn't imagine pouring money into an A-bolt, but that's just me.

You could go with a big 7, but they tend to make people very defensive of their positions/opinions.

You could go 270, but then you'd have to start wearing skinny jeans and drinking latte.

Or, you could go 280AI and be just right.

HUGE +1

I killed a bunch of woodchucks & coyotes not to mention dented steel fire forming 257 AI cases, and when I had my 280 AI FF'n for it gave me fantastic practice offhand shooting.

There is something lovely about that 40 degree shoulder, but I won't likely do another 280 AI but just stick with a straight-up 280 Rem.

It's not going to do anything that a 270 can't do. Or a 30-06.

But if you want one, just buy a Kimber and skip the ABolt.

Yeah, it will. It will shoot 7mm bullets. Good luck doing that with an 06 or 270

By that argument there really only needs to be a handful of big game cartridges and get rid of all the rest.

There isn't anything a 270 can do that a 280 can't do better. Even more so when it is a 280AI. The idiots that buy those 270's just haven't seen the light yet. A guy I work with keeps telling me its a "laser" because he shoots one. Not really. The .280 is far more versatile than a .270 could ever be.

I once shot a huge sheep (with a BIG 7) while my buddy was soaking his mouth in the river trying to cool his lips off.

He had burned his lip on his latte. In his defense, he had just bought a 270 (Tikka no less) that year, so he hadn't really figured out how to properly deal with the latte aspect. His barista skills have improved since then, but the skinny jeans just have to get old on a backpack hunt.

Like what? "Far more" versatile.....?

I've used the 270 and the 280,(and a dumbed down 7 Rem Mag which is a 280AI equivalent) and seen them all used by others ,many times; and any animal hit properly with any of them have achieved the same singular degree of "dead".

You can look at bullistic tables and see some fractional differences but on game animals you won't see any. The bullet construction will matter more in terminal effect than any other factor in distinguishing one from the other.

280AI is a fabulous round for hunting unicorns.

Don't look at 'em too long though, your eyes will cross and you'll get bullimia.

I like to think of it this way--the 30-06 and .270 are great cartridges, but they won't do anything a .280 AI can't do.

That's true.....

I almost bought one yesterday but came to my senses in time to save myself....

C'mon Bob, you know you want one.

Thats right! I even took a barrel off an 06 to make a 280ai.

.277" = 7.04mm

I really don't.....

I tried to watch this and it goes to Dennis Leary singing a rather "popular" song....might want to check which link you posted. I would like to follow up with the correct one you intended to post, I like to think I am never to old to learn!!!! Thanks.

Edit: Nevermind...I see that link is your signature, not something you were trying to explain. Well....maybe it is??? but not about the COW.

This is doubly funny when you know his hunting partner.

All the 280AI naysayers are going on ignore! I couldn't even sleep last night I was so mad !

Try counting unicorns instead of sheep to help fall asleep....

Interesting discussion.
Had a NIB Sako Fiberclass rechambered to 280AI some time ago. Sent it straight the Randy M for that work without ever firing it. Shot great when I get it back; still does 20 years later. Most likely would have shot great as a standard 280.
Made good progress with protein gathering and load development during fireforming. Used to be the perception of firefroming wasn’t that bad. “The worst day shooting I ever had was better than???”
If you like reloading, load development and appreciate efficiency go with a 280 AI; confident you will not be disappointed with the decision. If you prefer to purchase ammo in boxes of 20 – don’t bother.
Twenty years on, my Sako still shoots great. I point it at critters and they die. 140 gr BT with a healthy dose of R19 move things along at 3150. Brass lasts forever and my 0.284 trimmer pilot continues to slowly build surface rust.
The Sako 280 AI holds five rounds, shoots strait, will never smack my nose, and just kills stuff. Lots of it.
My 110 lb daughter can shoot it, has killed elk with it. Very user friendly.
What’s not to love?

Interesting discussion.
Had a NIB Sako Fiberclass rechambered to 280AI some time ago. Sent it straight the Randy M for that work without ever firing it. Shot great when I get it back; still does 20 years later. Most likely would have shot great as a standard 280.
Made good progress with protein gathering and load development during fireforming. Used to be the perception of firefroming wasn’t that bad. “The worst day shooting I ever had was better than???”
If you like reloading, load development and appreciate efficiency go with a 280 AI; confident you will not be disappointed with the decision. If you prefer to purchase ammo in boxes of 20 – don’t bother.
Twenty years on, my Sako still shoots great. I point it at critters and they die. 140 gr BT with a healthy dose of R19 move things along at 3150. Brass lasts forever and my 0.284 trimmer pilot continues to slowly build surface rust.
The Sako 280 AI holds five rounds, shoots strait, will never smack my nose, and just kills stuff. Lots of it.
My 110 lb daughter can shoot it, has killed elk with it. Very user friendly.
What’s not to love?

Posted that twice in trying trying hard to "ai" convince? (himself?)

The 280ai is quite possibly the ultimate North American hunting cartridge. From the plains to the mountain range, and from western blacktails to the speed goats of the prairies, the northern whitetails, Utah bull elk, right up to the Alaskan moose, it is at home. It might not be a first choice for a 1000yd gong shooter, but as a practical hunting cartridge I can't think of a better all round cartridge. There are a few that would fit the bill, but when you average the trajectory, with the kinetic energy, felt recoil, bc and bullet selection, if you reload there isn't a better cartridge. If there is id love to hear what it is?

LMAO.....


Gimme a break....

RBO, of course every guy has his opinion rights, but that is one piece of work to place before a host of experienced shooter/hunters. If your post had existed back when in one of my talks with P.O., it would have made for a fun discussion.

280AI naysayers typically don't want new guys buying up this years run of Nosler 280AI brass

CCCC & BobinNH & 16bore ----->going on ignore !

All going on my buddy list..

.30/06

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok that's it -you're joining the anti-280AI ignore club !!

Gotta be a million rounds that will fit that description of a BG cartridge ........geeeezzz

Bob,

I posted early on in this thread that "I've owned two .280 AI's and fooled around extensively with another. It's a great cartridge, in fact it's just as good as the .270 Winchester and .30-06 Springfield." But apparently the Tongue-In-Cheek Font didn't work that day....

It's OK ol_mike, nicer folks that ai shooters have me on ignore.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mule Deer ,

I caught your drift on your cute little wording -showing off your writing skills !
ON IGNORE ............................................

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OK then name them !!

Checkmate!

John I knew what you were saying....

Yeah, I know you did. Others, not so much.... :-)

However, being a rifle loony means I own rifles in all three chamberings. Luckily (or maybe not) they're three very different rifles, which is more important than any difference in the cartridges.

I have tried to buy one several times......but I have had it surrounded for 30+ years .

I sometimes wonder how some guys come to such absolute conclusions about one cartridge in such a crowded field....curious.

It's yuge....every one else is loooser....

Ya fired!

It's easy to paint things in black and white when you're not hampered by knowing WTF you are talking about.

Tom

You know what would be completely kick-ass?
If you could buy a rifle that would shoot the standard .280 rem, which is great, as well as the .280Ackley, which is great +P?

Well bob, when you're done laughing clean the beer off your belly and tell me what is a better cartridge.

A 30-06? I've got one of those that collects dust in the locker. 300mag variety? Had about a half dozen of those filter through. 7mm-08 or 308? They'd do ok if you're shots were <300yds. Powder burners and pop guns.

I posted my opinion in a way to rile people up enough to hopefully come up with an informative response, and perhaps even suggest a more well rounded cartridge for North American game. I also knew it get a lot of responses from people who don't like the 280ai but couldn't come up with a better cartridge.

I like the ai. I like a lot of cartridges. Liking something a lot does not make it exclusive and paramount.

.30/06.

Just cause you have one in your gunsafe that collects dust does not mean it's not a better cartridge.

How much better is better?

For the record, I don't think the 280ai is exclusive or paramount, nor do I think that there are dozens of cartridges that would do the job. What I'm suggesting is that when you look at the little, mostly inconsequential aspects it edges slightly ahead of most other cartridges, admittedly most advantages are so slight they would not make a difference in the real world, but they still are advantages.

No, being left in the gun safe doesn't make it less of a cartridge, its ballistics does though. The 30-06 is a nice meat and potatoes gun, but there isn't a single situation I would take it over a 280ai if they were both in the same make of rifle. Like I said, I know the 280ai won't do anything a 270 or 30-06 can't do, I just think it does it a little better. Shoots flat like a 270 and hits hard like a 30-06, and for that reason I think it's better. If I didn't reload I would probably opt for a different cartridge, that's the only downfall the 280ai has imo.

So 160 NAB in a 280AI smokes a 140 NAB in a 270 by 1" of drop, 1" of drift, 53 FPS and 278 FPE at the 500 yard line.


That's smoking....

Yup, smokes it.

Good news is we can share DOPE cards...

The 280 ai is an odd version of a round that never was popular, the 280 rem.

For certain I would never waste effort to 'build' one.

Good popular cartridges that overlap what the 280 ai is supposed to do are the 270 Win and the 7mm RM.

RBO: How would you expect anyone to respond to this?

Your post sounds like the add copy for some new Nosler cartridge in the back pages of Petersens' Hunting......You can't really expect me t take any of what you wrote seriously can you?

If you want a (partial) list of cartridges that will and have accomplished all the same things that you say the 280AI is suited for we can think about the 270, 7x57, 280, 284, 7SAUM,7mm WSM, 270 Weatherby,7mm Weatherby, 7mm Rem Mag , 7x61 S&H,7mm Dakota,28 Nosler, 30/06, 300 WSM, 300 H&H, 300 Win Mag, 300 Weatherby,30 Nosler, etc etc.

I'd toss in the 338's. They can do the same things but I always regarded them as specialized sluggers in a different category.

I didn't include the 6.5's because the list would start to get ridiculous and you have to draw the line somewhere but obviously many of them are capable of taking exactly the same game you mentioned and at the same distances as well. An old now deceased acquaintance of mine killed a couple of grand slams and all the African plains game with a 264 Win Mag....so.......

If you want to talk about wildcats the list gets longer and the low pressure fire form loads for my 7mm Mashburn with 140 gr bullets easily equals the performance of the 280, and at less pressure,...... while leaving the 280 AI completely in the dust with anything from 140 to 180 gr bullets with full house Mashburn loads. That's from rifles with the same action length and a 24" barrel weighing 8 pounds and under. The 7mm Weatherby, 7 Rem Mag and STW will do the same things.


Some of these cartridges are a bit slower in velocity than a 280 AI, some are a bit faster with the same or heavier bullets and have the case capacity to meet or exceed 280AI velocities very easily....and with heavier bullets to boot, but all kill the same animals in much the same fashion if you pick a good bullet and place it right.

So...in all those categories you mentioned, I could just as easily apply a 30/06, 7 Rem Mag, 300 Winchester mag,270, 280, 7mm Mashburn or Weatherby..... or any of the others mentioned above and stack animals on top of one another from one end of the continent to the other. I could do the same thing with a 280 AI but there isn't anything particularly distinguishing about it except in the bowels of the imaginations of fans like you.

I have 280AI and it's everything you say it is but I also shoot 30-06 and 270 one has Bartlein barrel other Lilja and I also hunt with them.

There has to be a place for everything.

Magnums are powder burners that offer no advantage at 600yds or less which I would guess 95% of hunters never reach out to in the first place, plus with a magnum you get a magnum recoil which i would guess subconsciously causes a flinch in most hunters taking any hunting advantage that magnum rifle might of had and throws it out the window.

I never said the 280ai was the only rifle capable of being a killing machine out to 600yds, I said when you average all things it was the best in my opinion.

The 280ai is a wildcat that is starting to make mainstream with manufacturers mass producing them, and now Nosler is now making factory brass and ammo for them. You know why? Because they realize the efficiency of this cartridge.

What is a "better" all round cartridge and why? I don't want a generic list of all the cartridges in its class, give me a specific cartridge and the reason it's better. I think the 30-06 and the 270 are as close as you can come to being the perfect hunting rifle, with the 280rem taking the best of both worlds then PO Ackley came along and improved it, with even Parker admitting he thought the 280 was the most efficient of his creations.

Get upset with my post, call me a crazy fan boy, but at least back it up with some with some facts and reasons. Like I said, flat like a 270 and hits like a 30-06 with no magnum recoil and factory chamberings. I don't need to hear about the cartridges that can do it, I want to hear about the ones that can do it better, and why.

Quick trip through Midway....

48 flavors of 270, 46 of 7RM, 1 280AI


That's about all the "better" this fella needs because hand loading is boring as hell....

Aught:

fwiw...have been loading and shooting 280AI for nigh unto three decades...like some others here. Both the 280 and 280AI are best utilized by handloaders.

Thinking 50fps is the average gain with the lighter bullets and a bit more with the heavier stuff. Comparisons to larger or smaller jugs are a waste of time, imho. As was said, the beauty of the 280AI, is getting the most FPS you can get out of its 06 parent case supported by excellent Nosler data, SAAMI chamber specs, and factory brass. 7mm BCs are also a plus.

The 06AI gains less fps, ime, as you are getting the same case capacity gain from firefoming in a larger bore. You gotta be a fan to form cases and comparisons to its parent are anecdotal--which is a nice way to say as likely to be imagined as not. Which pretty much goes for wildcats in general, lacking lab data.

Personally, I like the 280AI in a 700 TI action for a lightweight high country rifle which has served me more better than I deserve. Being a mauser slut, run the 280 in those, as the feeding is a touch smoother- rifles throated to maximize case capacity.

RBO,

I always enjoy it when "efficiency" is mentioned regarding hunting cartridges.

As a general ballistic rule, the smaller the cartridge for the caliber the more efficient it is--if we measure efficiency by the amount of energy produced by the amount of powder burned. This seems reasonable to some, though maybe not to others, but we're going to use it anyway.

Using powder/energy as the measuring stick, the .22 Short is probably the most efficient rifle cartridge in existence. That statement pokes some fun at the concept of "efficiency" as a measure of cartridge worth, but a more realistic comparison would be the 7mm-08 to the .280 AI. The 7mm-08 beats the .280 AI in efficiency in every way imaginable, including energy produced for grain of powder burned, downrange energy for grain or powder burned, and lack of recoil for grain of powder burned.

If you don't enjoy shooting as a hobby and just want a gun to kill stuff with, anything from a 243 to a 416 rigby would do the job, a 30-06 or 270 would most likely be the best bet. I think the OP is a bit more in tune with ballistic efficiency and willing to develop loads if he's inquiring about a 280ai. I have about 30lbs of powder and about the same weight in .284 bullets ranging from 120gr ttsx to 175gr deep curls, and about 200 Nosler brass to go with it. my 280ai variety rivals the 48 flavors of the 270, but I agree it's only because I enjoy shooting and hand loading.

Plus there's brass for the damn thing. These days that's my first consideration.

.284 is another...

I prefer a minimum of 80% return on 20% effort. It's just that simple.

I agree with you on that to a certain extent, and not to mention it has a short action which makes for a lighter platform. If the maximum range for an average hunter in North America was 300yds I would choose the 7mm-08 all day long, but I think 500yds is a more realistic maximum range for the average hunter, for deer might be ok but I wouldn't try it on a moose or elk at that range with a 7mm-08. I think once you get out past the 500yd range you get into someone who is not your average hunter anymore, that's territory I'm not talking about.

That's fine, I never claimed the 280ai was for the lazy hunter, I just said I think it's better than the 270 and 30-06, and even you said the 280ai smokes the 270win, with a chart to prove it

Lazy or smart enough to know diminishing returns when I see it. Like I said, it's a great unicorn rifle as long as you choose a quality bullet and a full case of pixie dust.

I would say lazy because with little effort you won't find deminishing returns. I know you said it's a good unicorn gun, but I also know it's because it's better than your 270 and you have a hard time coming to terms with that. It's ok, your 270 is a very capable cartridge, with bullets available at every Walmart, which is all most guys are looking for.

Maybe that's your problem, you spend too much time worrying about unicorns and pixie dust, and not enough time behind the trigger developing loads.

Never even seen me a reloading press. Fingers crossed that you're at least smart enough to be shooting something with a .625 BC.

Why do you even own a press? Seems walmart would be a much easier option for you.

I hear they sell unicorns too.

Yup, I smell Gamekings.

I would agree with Bob's post, as well as some of yours. But if you really want to get into it, when push comes to shove an argument can be made that the 7SAUM offers identical ballistic performance to the .280AI, being within less than 1gr of usable powder capacity, but can be had in shorter action lengths, lighter rifles (or equal-weight rifles with less action/stock weight and more barrel weight, contributing to a rifle package that settles easier in field positions), less chance of short stroking the action, etc. Of course this is meaningless in real-world application, but if we're cussing and discussing the theoretical minutia, the 7SAUM is "better" when looking at the sum total of how each chambering scores in all the categories you list. There are other cartridges that score as well or better than the .280AI when looking at the "sum total"- the 7SAUM is just one.

Good to know that you're assuming it doesn't work, with zero experience to back it up.

What is the deciding factor when figuring out the cutoff range? How do you know when a shot is beyond the capable distance of the chambering/load? What load are you using in your .280AI? Thanks.

Thanks for the input, it's exactly the type of response I was hoping to hear. The 7saum is a very comparable option to the 280ai imo, and the short action is a plus too I imagine. The only argument I would give to the AI would be magazine capacity over a magnum caliber.

Short action vs magazine capacity. If you only need to take one shot, neither matters lol.

I own a 7mm-08, I've also killed deer, moose and elk out past 500yds with my 280rem and 280ai and have recovered bullets from the animals, I have seen the lack of expansion from a ttsx at long range out of the 280 and I know that it would be worse out of my 7mm-08.

Your assumption I have zero first hand experience with these cartridges is just that, an assumption, and false at that.

I love these threads

Same folks, same arguments, same old bullschit.

I'm not smart enough to figure out which is "best" but I do have a couple .280 AIs and a SAUM.

For me, the cases are right in the sweet spot in terms of horsepower vs. recoil, as are 7 mm bullets.

And Frankly Scarlett, I don't give a damn what the rest of you guys shoot.

Magazine capacity, although discussed a bunch, holds little actual value to me. If I think back to the number of times I've needed more than 3 shots in a BG hunting scenario, I can count them on two fingers on one of my hands, and one of those ended up being unnecessary as the first shot went through the heart. A shorter action, less weight, and a handier rifle, however, can be an advantage during the 99% of the time the rifle is in my hands, not just when I'm squeezing the trigger.

I made no such assumption, sir. Based on your use of the words "might" and "wouldn't try it", I inferred that you've never shot or killed a BG animal beyond 500 yards with the 7-08. Correct me if I'm wrong. Yet you are suggesting that it wouldn't work well. Some of us that have experience in that sort of scenario with the 7-08 would beg to differ.

Your fanatical-esque zeal for a chambering like the .280AI as a 500 or 600 yard rifle and your criticism for the 7-08 at anything over 300 yards, with no mention of bullets used, sends a message about your understanding of such things. At 500 meters a 7-08 shooting a 162AM arrives with more energy, more velocity, less wind drift, and more reliable expansion behaviour than a 140TTSX from a .280AI...

I wouldn't venture to say which is "best", either. But I couldn't resist playing "the devil's advocate" when a guy makes such wild and ludicrous claims

Exactly where I'm at. Though finding SAUM brass ain't quite as easy as finding brass that'll easily work for a 280/AI. Not that either are deal breakers.

Jordan,

Magazine capacity means as much to me as action length, over the past couple decades it's meant less and less as I've developed the patience for shot placement and rarely put a bullet where I need a follow up shot, I was just suggesting they both have pluses and minuses.

Weight and balance mean much more to me, and for the most part the specific rifle model is a bigger determining factor than action length. I have a Kimber Montana in 280ai that balances better than the Kimber 300wsm I had, I couldn't tell the difference in mass weight but I could get a much better group freehand with the AI, I can only assume that was due to better balance as both were sub MOA off the bench

Can you tell me the velocity energy and wind drift of both the 162amax out of the 7-08, I assume it would be from a 22" bbl and the velocity, energy, and wind drift from the 140gr tax in a 280ai which I assume would be from a 24" bbl?

Yep, it sure is boring. Boring that it is so easy to load for, and boring that every damn shot goes in the same place

Maybe throw in a 129 LRX for schits and giggles too. 3,100 in a 22" tube.

That's the best shooting Montana on the planet.

How do you know all this? have you hunted with and killed much game with all those cartridges,especially the magnums?

Or are you just repeating what you have read?

Im not upset with your post; I just think it's ridiculous.

Sure. I used a hot but not red-lined load in each- 2700 fps for the 7-08/162 and 3100 fps for the .280AI/140, and a 22" barrel for both to keep the comparison valid. We could push either load 50-75 fps harder if we stepped on the gas. Of course a guy could put a 24" barrel on either one if he wanted and gain about the same. There will be minor variations in calculations based on individual atmospheric differences, etc, but I used the same input factors for both loads...

Using SA conditions and 10mph full value wind, at 500 meters the 162AM from the 7-08 has 1.0 mil of wind drift, 1955 fps of velocity, and 1372 ft-lbs of energy.

The .280AI/140 has 1.3 mils of wind drift, 1945 fps of velocity, and 1174 ft-lbs of energy remaining. Even if we give the .280AI an unfair advantage with a 24" barrel and say 3175 fps muzzle velocity, at the 500 meter line it drifts 1.2 mils in the wind (0.2 mil more than the 162), has 2002 fps remaining (47 fps more than the 162), and 1243 ft-lbs of energy (129 ft-lbs less than the 162).

Found it. The .277" 129LRX must be pretty new- it doesn't show up in Ballistic:AE or QL.

Wind drift - 1.1 mil
Remaining vel - 2058 fps
Remaining energy - 1210 ft-lbs

There is the odd one that shoots

Bob,

Respectfully, the 7SAUM is a MAGNUM, so you ought to know that it kicks too hard, booms too loud, and burns too much powder to be in the same league as the .280AI. I would have thought that a guy like you would know such things...

Jordan please forgive me....I lost my head!

Those dreaded magnums are impossible to shoot......


So the 280 AI "Shoots as flat as a 270 but hits like a 3006"......gee where have I heard that line before ?

I remember..........Someone wrote it about the 7 mm Remington Magnum back in 1962!

These 280AI boys need to get a life...they're all 40 - 50 years behind the times. There's been better mousetraps for 4 decades LOL!

So it "smokes" a 140 TTSX in a 280AI?

Not really. It's short on energy, the most important factor

If we were to throw a 145 LRX in the .280AI at 3100 fps, it'd shake out like this:

Drift - 1.0 mil
Vel - 2101 fps
Energy - 1419 ft-lbs

Bullets matter. Seems I've heard that before

Forgiveness will take time, Bob. You've committed a near unpardonable offense against the AI fraternity...

Jordan,

Speaking of giving unfair advantages you've got the 7-08 lined up with an optimum load and comparing it to a 280ai with an average load. If all things are equal, the 280ai will out preform the 7-08

Fwiw, I never said the 7-08 wouldn't work out past 300yds, go re-read my post and if you still don't understand what I wrote, let me know and I will explain it to you.

You were doing ok with your argument that the 7rsaum was a good challenger to the 280ai, but it seems you got a little too heavy since then.

RBO, you are in over your head....

I'd stop now...

Guess I should have bumped up my post count on this forum a few thousand before engaging. I know some of the players from other forums, I know exactly who I'm up against.

Yeah, but the 129 has MORE than the 140, which makes it BETTER!?!?!

Nice.

Once I got past chuckling at RBO's claims, I liked elkhunternm's reply because the 30:06 seems like one good response.

Let's put it all into some practical form. We're looking at a big/mature bull elk 350 to 450 yards away and a stiff breeze is blowing across the view. Here sits a .280ai all loaded and sighted in with with whatever is the "optimum" load mentioned earlier. Next to it is a 30:06 accompanied by your choice of 150 gr. bullet loads, 165 gr. bullet loads and 200 gr. (or even 220 gr.) bullet loads - and sighted in accordingly.

I think that the smart hunter/shooter is going to take the shot with the "best" available rifle for that realistic situation, and the other sure looks "better" than that .280ai and its "optimum" load.

Maybe you didn't love hearing about that, but did try to answer the request.

There's a lot of people with lots of posts on this forum in over their heads too. You'll fit right in....

Have a look at 16bores drop/drift/energy chart on page 9 of this thread. Pick your load?

Not really. I left about 75 fps on the table for both loads, and that is keeping pressure within SAAMI standards for both, which means the .280AI load is pushing about 5000k psi higher pressure than the 7-08! Given equal rifles, we should really be operating at like pressure to give an "apples to apples" comparison. But the pressure differential aside, both loads could get another ~75 fps if using max, redline charges of the optimal powder in each. But the sad news for you, is that if we bumped both loads another 75 fps, the 162AM retains more of that additional speed at the 500 meter line than the 140TTSX does, widening the gap even further in the 162's favour. Sadly, all things AREN'T equal at the 500 meter line when the .280AI is pushing a 140TTSX and the 7-08 a 162AM, and the 7-08 wins in every aspect, including reliable expansion on impact. Now if you were to have the light bulb flicker on for a second, and compare both chamberings in like barrel lengths, at like pressure, using like bullets, then yeah you're going to gain a little performance, at every distance, for the extra premium in recoil, noise, and powder that you pay. But when you fail to mention the bullet you're using while singing the praises of one chambering over all others, guys who know better just chuckle to themselves.



First of all, we've been talking about 500 meters because you mentioned 500 and 600 yards with your mighty .280AI and 140TTSX. Now let me quote you...



You can try to backpedal at this point, but it ain't gonna work. Fact is, you're still in the rifle infancy stage where you see chamberings as the "end all, be all." You'll eventually realize that bullets matter a whole lot more than the brass vessel they're launched out of. Hopefully our little performance comparison demonstrating the 7-08/162AM outpacing the .280AI/140TTSX at 500 meters has opened your eyes to that fact.

All that is not to say that the 7-08/162 is superior to the .280AI/140 in every situation and in every way. In fact, for shooting large critters at 300 yards or less I'd take the 140TTSX over the 162AM every time, in either launching platform. But when you start suggesting that the 7-08 is best suited to hunting big game under 300 yards and that your .280AI/140TTSX is the quintessential, idealistic combination out to 500 or 600 yards, well I just can't let that slide.

Jordan, all things being equal means ALL things, all things being equal between the 7-08 and the 280ai, the 280ai wins with about 4ft lbs more recoil, but still under the proverbial 20ft lbs mark.

Both rifles shoot the same projectiles, its the charge that sets them apart. I haven't looked too much into the 7saum but with only a grain or two difference between it and the ackley, I imagine it would be getting pretty close to the maximum recoil range where shooting gets a little uncomfortable. My only question would be on brass and barrel life, granted for a hunting rifle that wouldn't be much of a worry, provided you don't need to do any load development.

With a choice between a 7-08, a 280ai, and a 7stw to go hunting with, I'd pick the 280ai every time, the 7saum sounds almost like the ballistic twin to the 280ai only in a short fat case.

The 7 Saum is about as gay as the 270 but will make do until you can save up your lunch money to afford a 30-06.

300-600...got friends with 900+ yd DRT Elk kills with their 270 WSM, but they'll be crawling back wringing their hands and crying when their supply of 165gr Matrix Magic Bullets dry up.

But until that happens that's the Magnum Force!

Cant seem to get RBO to answer this question.

What do you want to know bob? Have I killed animals with magnum rifles?

Yes, I have killed animals with magnum rifles, when the bullet hits its mark they die. The only magnum rifles I didn't mind shooting for any amount of time finished off around 10-11lbs, which isn't my idea of an ideal hunting rifle.

8# McSwirly'ed R700 7RM with 162's @ 3,000fps is a pussy cat.

But I missed the part where you mentioned your 280AI load.

I'm trying to figure out how you know there is no advantage to (say) a 300 or 338 magnum on a 500 yard elk vs a 270 or 280. I know a few folks who would disagree with you. I'm wondering if you've killed enough of them with those cartridges (or at least seen it done) and dug through enough elk carcasses to know the difference?

The obvious advantage to a magnum chambering is that it holds more powder, so can move heavier bullets to higher velocity than the standard chamberings with less capacity. f you think that's not an advantage, i disagree.

The limiting factor in the recoil issue is "you",and has nothing to do with the advantages offered by the bigger case.You need to find your limitations and live with them,it doesn't change the facts that the bigger case does offer advantages.

10-11 pounds isn't an ideal hunting rifle weight. But that's a rifle you inflict on yourself. If your 7mm or 300 magnum weighs 10-11 pounds it's your fault and no one else's.

None of this, however, elevates a 280AI to the ideal or perfect all around BG cartridge. That's just your own opinion and nothing more.

It wouldn't make my top 5 for a bunch of reasons.

I tend to think that for every rifle/chambering, there are choice loads that are right at the sweet spot of performance and nothing is "King" across the board.

"Performance" being subjective....

120 TTSX in a 7RM is a loser in my opinion compared to 110 TTSX in a 270. 162's in that same 7 RM are stellar.

Soooooo much schit overlaps and is insignificant that it's true value is purely campfire fodder.

Suns out, guns out, rock out with your cock out......

Hells Bells,my .300 Wby weighs 8 3/4 lbs that is with a Leupold 3.5x10. My 7mm Dakota weighs a hair over 9 lbs and it has a Leupold 4.5x14.

Unless his rifles have barrels that are varmint contour I don't see how they can weigh 10-11 lbs.

The two heaviest rifle I own are a .460 Wby (11 lbs) and a .375 RUM (10 lbs.)

Couple things,

I never said that a magnum rifle wouldn't have an advantage at killing animals, I said that with its added recoil it can make the hunter develop a flinch, in turn making them less accurate. A good shot with a lighter cartridge is beter than a bad shot with a big gun. I have owned several magnum rifles and I'll tell you that spending a day on the bench with a light weight magnum developing loads isn't my idea of a good time.

The magnums I didn't mind shooting a few dozen round through were the ones that weighed 10-11 pounds finished, more geared towards bench work, with that weight they spent little time in the woods.

Obviously all this is and ever was, was my opinion, and it still is my opinion that the 280ai is quite possibly the best all round North American big game hunting cartridge. I know you and a few others have taken offense to my opinion, however none of you have suggested a better alternative, but rather tear up my opinion. My opinion is what the OP was asking to hear about, I gave reasons why I like the 280a and told him what I think about iti, after that most all I've read is a bunch of guys crying over my opinion.

You say it doesn't make your top five for a number of reasons, do you care to tell me the bunch of reasons, then tell me the 5 that top it?

You have an accumark that weighs 8-3/4lbs with a scope on it??? Did you swap out the hydrogen with helium? You gotta give me your secret of how you get a rifle that weighs 8-3/4lb out of the box to weigh 8-3/4lbs with a scope, ammo, and a sling on it? There is only two ways that could happen, magic being one of them.

Dang, I was wrong, I am smart enough to say which cartridge is best. All it takes is looking up the one with the most case capacity in any given bore size, and the .50 BMG is king of the hill.




Yes, except for the fact that recoil affects everyone, at some point.

Lol....I do get a kick out of guys chanting about one bore dia being better than another and they don't even load the bullets that do make it "better".

You said magnums hold no advantage inside 600 yards. What am I supposed to interpret that as meaning? That's what you said. Read it.

Is the 280AI the ONLY rifle you own? Haven't you ever taken 2-3 rifles to the range? Say a 223, a 280 AI and a 300 Winn Mag? Do some shooting with each one?

Point being you don't need to shoot 100 rounds (or even 50) in an afternoon to be proficient with a 300 or any heavy recoiling rifle. This is just urban myth. Mix it up to get past the recoil issue.

You don't shoot strings of shots at BG animals in the course of a season. The recoil of a 7mm or 300 magnum should not be a major issue if you practice intelligently with either one. I would not be so insistent on this issue if I had not shout thousands of rounds in magnum chamberings over the years.

We aren't offering alternatives to your opinion because there isn't any single one"best" choice.Some of us have figured that out. We all have our favorites, and our opinions but that's about "it".

You're entitled to your opinion but you aren't entitled to your facts.

Five cartridges I'd pick for general BG hunting on this continent are the 30/06, the 7mm Rem Mag,270 Winchester, 300 Win Mag, and 375 H&H. I'd squeeze a 338 in there if there were room. I don't have to explain those cartridges to you....do I?

In a wildcat cartridge I'd take the 7mm Mashburn Super any day of the week. The FF loads are really a "280AI" if I want to hunt with those, and I can move 175 gr bullets close to 3100 fps if I want. With 160's it leaves the 280AI way behind.Those will work on anything.

Yes, it burns more powder and kicks a little more....LOL who cares? See above.

In less "common" chamberings I'd take a 7mm Weatherby before a 280AI.

Hell I think I named 8! The 280AI won't even make Top Ten!

Case capacity is not that much greater than a 270 or standard 280. Reference the Nosler Manual. With a 150 gr bullet seated the 280AI holds 64.8 gr of powder,and a standard 280 holds 62.5. Top loads show 3100 vs 3020. Not much "Improvement" there.

It's mostly a fad.

Yep.




Nope. If it was, it would be dead by now, not standardized.

Too much effort about the ass end of a cartridge and not enough on the front.

WWPOD?

Well....we'll see where it goes. I don't see rifles and ammo commonly available at any of the biggest stores back here. There was ONE 280AI at Kittery Trading Post yesterday.

Federal loading for it yet? Winchester or Remington? It;s mostly just Nosler far as I know.

I think the WSM's got way more traction in just a few months than the 280AI has had....and the 7mm WSM is about dead, except on here.

The CF is the Nirvana of dead and obscure cartridges.

The guy on the left wins. Is that RBO on the right?

That's BS Jordan and you know it. The guy on the left has better trajectory, but the splash marks clearly show the guy on the right with more retained energy, even though you can't see the headstamp.

Bob, I guess what I meant was that out past 600yds is where you will see the advantage of a magnum cartridge over a non magnum cartridge.

Of your top 5 I would take a 280ai over the 30-06, 270, 7rem mag, and a 338 as an all round rifle, and if it's in a lightweight platform I'd take it over the 300mag as well.

What are "my" facts? Are you suggesting that a 7-08 will outperform a 280ai? I used the example of the ttsx because it just so happened to be the bullet that particular rifle liked best and when I was presented with that particular shot I was able to put the bullet where it had to go, I knew it wasn't an ideal range but to be quite honest I thought it would have preformed a bit better. Given the exact same circumstances with a 7-08 it would have been work. It's all fine and dandy if your 7-08 likes heavy bullets, what if it don't? I also said that the 280ai's recoil is under the proverbial 20ft lb mark, which is said to be the point where recoil starts to subconsciously affect a shooters accuracy for the average shooter.

I know how things work, as soon as soon as someone doesn't agree with your opinion they go on the attack, taking everything that is said as literal and gospel to push their opinion. I don't mind other opinions, as a matter of fact I've been challenging others to give theirs, and by the way I do appreciate your responses, even though I disagree with some of what you say. They tend to be a bit more on the educated side than the critical side which helps add to the thread rather than take from it.

Taking opinion out of the mix, how does that 7mm 140 TTSX @ 3,100 compare to the .277 129 LRX at 3,100?

Or did we already go over this?

Classy Jordan, it's hard to believe how your head has swollen over the years, you used to respond with class and be informative, maybe that's just when you knew who you were talking to can have the same conversation to your face.


Maybe I will, you can pee on my boots then.

Oh please, somebody say it.......I can't bring myself to plagiarize...

That's kind of my point. ALL things are never equal. Every chambering has trade offs. If you want to compare efficiency, the 7-08 is superior. It accomplishes the same things at a lower cost. Recoil, noise, and powder consumption are all greater with the .280AI. Rifle length, weight, and handiness also suffer. If you want to compare performance, well then the 7WSM, 7RM, etc will outpace the .280AI with a minimal addition in recoil, noise, and powder consumption. The 7SAUM has essentially identical usable powder capacity (<1gr difference), but comes in a smaller action/stock package. Barrel life is essentially a wash, and brass life is too, if effort is made to keep necks from splitting. Difference in recoil is negligible, and is affected more by stock design and fit than any perceived difference between the two chamberings.

At the end of the day, they ALL have trade offs. Sure, the .280AI is one of the best all-around BG hunting rifles that exists, but so is the .270 Win, 7-08, 7RM, .30-06, 7WSM, etc. A guy simply has to decide what trade offs matter most to him. How much performance does he need, and how much recoil, noise, powder consumption, barrel life, cost-effectiveness, and rifle handiness is he willing to give up/accept to get it. Bullets make a much bigger difference than the name on the headstamp. Nobody is offended by your opinion, but your arguments behind the opinion don't hold up, as several here have pointed out.

Good point. That stream must have more retained energy and be of larger caliber. Where are the judges???

No offense intended. There are several guys on here that I consider friends, and we've occasionally disagreed and debated back and forth. If a guy can't dabble in a friendly pissing contest without getting offended, maybe he needs to re-think things a bit...

What you say about me may be true, but over the years I've developed an inability to suffer people pretending to speak with authority with no substance to back it up.

I don't think anyone will report you

Ok, I'll do it....


"


You couldn't pour piss out of a boot......

I don't know what it is about this cartridge that gets people so emotional. Guaranteed, if the OP had said "I want to build an '06 (or .270, or .260, or .243) this thread would've run its course long ago.

30-06 = Boring
270 = Gay
243 = buy a Creed
260 = buy a Creed


Easy pattern.

It's the unreasonable claims that people make. No different than "The .270 is clearly superior to the .30-06 as an all-around BG hunting cartridge", or "Barnes bullets are better than Nosler bullets, no exceptions", or "Leupold scopes suck. Vortex is better", "PF actions aren't suitable for serious hunting rifles, CRF is the only way to go", etc.

That's what I like to see, a guy with all the answers.

Thanks!

Well, my mom does make the best fried chicken.

You proved my point. All those things are true, so why argue?

My .300 Wby is a Winchester M 70. Got it as a Christmas present 4 years ago.

A 175 gr bullet close to 3100 from a 7mm Mashburn Super,that's very interesting Bob.

Getting the itch for a big 7mm mag (that may pass,rifle looney you know ) cause I have 175 gr NP's just sitting in the reloading room.

That's a good point.

It's been my Campfire experience is the less actual difference there is between cartridges/rifles/scopes/bullets (or anything else), the longer and more argumentative the thread.

My Weatherby magnums were Weatherbys, if you're not familiar with a weatherby accumark, after you throw a zeiss 5-25x50 a sling and some ammo you're sitting at between 10 and 11 pounds. Not that it matters to me one way or another, but for future reference when someone claims to have a 10 pound magnum rifle, they aren't necessarily sporting a heavy contour predator barrel.

You made it on the bash bus, it just so happened to be the short one

Well ......it's obvious where you went wrong. Ditch the hubble and mount something reasonable. The Accumark is a friggin club.

No wonder you think magnums weigh 10-11 pounds.

Here's a sub 8 pound magnum....scoped.

Hell, that's 3# of scope!

Noo.....just a little old SWFA 6X.




Another. This any better?

No offense intended?

If you piss on your buddies boots, that's one thing, if you piss on a strangers boots they don't always see the humor in that. I don't get offended by someone disagreeing with me, I don't get offended when someone corrects me, I do get a little irritated when they act different on the internet than what they would to your face, but I understand that's how it goes on the www.

We've had a few discussions over the years, most if not every time it's been pleasant and respectful, I'm surprised at how this one went. I've been on forums long enough not to get offended by someone behind a keyboard. Since I just started posting on this forum and haven't spent any time setting up my profile I'll give a little personal info, I'm not far down a stoney trail, west of nickleback county, chances are we've shot across the same piece of real-estate.

I've pretty much given all of my opinion of the 280ai, unless there's something else someone would care to grill me over that I haven't yet answered, I'm going to sit back and read the rest.

I know I said I'd sit back and read, I just want to clear up one last thing,

The accumarks were more of a bench rifle, I had a swaro hibecht on the 257 which was lighter. My hunting scopes are 40-44mm objectives.

Had a couple accumark, 257wby and a 300wby, sold my last accumark about 6 or so years ago because they were too heavy. Had a Cooper model 52 Excalibur in my beloved 280rem I sold because it was to heavy for my style of hunting. Had a TC pro Hunter in 300win mag, Sako Finnlight and Kimber Montana in 300wsm, and a Tikka T3 light in 300mag, got rid of all those for one reason or another in my quest for the perfect big game rifle. Something light and accurate, packs a punch but won't beat me up. It cost more than my other rifles but I think it's worth every cent.

I think you mis-read that little illustration- it's not a "Calvin pissing on Chevy" sort of thing. More like a pissing contest, as in a debate back and forth. At least that's how I interpreted it. No personal attack intended.

OK, one complaint of the 280 AI: It has that Nosler name on the only factory brass available. Almost settled on fireforming R-P brass to get away from that. But, then I discovered that it is in fact Norma brass with a pseudo Nosler headstamp. So, that won me over. It's kinda like having a rifle with "Weatherby" or "Remington" on the side of the action. Not happening here. But, that's just me

Had a Accumark in a .300 Win mag,about 12-14 years ago. Did not weight it,but thinking 9 lbs was tops. It had a little ol' 3-9x on it. Killed a cow elk with it,then gave it to my brother.

Someone has schit for brains to have a 10 lb .300 magnum as 9 lbs or a little less is about right.

For those pining for a 280AI, a Kimber was just posted in the classifieds. As was a Rem 700 280 Rem in Mountain Rifle flavor which would be a decent candidate for the AI conversion.

Disclaimer: Neither rifle is mine, and I receive no compensation if/when either sells.

280AI is basically the cartridge for the "right guy"...

The guy who -

- Doesn't need to over do it ( otherwise he'd have a Mag)
- The guy who engages targets at ranges where better BC's matter (over 300)
- The guy who may be trying to keep fewer rifles
- The guy who doesn't like the kick of 180 grain and higher bullets, or 130 grain and lighter for thier all around pill.

The 270 - targets
- The guy who cares more about velocity, and the size of the bullet hitting the target .

The 30-06 - targets
- The practical guy who wants to know it works, and the capability to pick a bullet weight I like.

That said - they all work, but if you use the 270, or 06 you get to worry about the issue of too little lead for what you may want, or too much drop past 300..

The 280 AI removes those concerns quiet effectively.
And gives one the opportunity to smirk and say "I just like it better" than what you are shooting.. No matter how much they say they don't want one, in thier heart they do.

I heard something about bullets once.....

I can't recall being concerned...and if I was, the 7 Rem Mag squelched any fears.

Going UP in pressure and DOWN in velocity from the 7 RM always seemed bass ackwards to me...but what do I know?



I always thought it was for guys who lay awake nights dreaming of the perfect cartridge.

I can't comment on the personality types since I don't personally know anyone who owns one. And I have never hunted with anyone who was using one.

One or two friends got rid of theirs...

Will someone please pass the standard 280 Remington?

Thanks.

I may have a bit more pragmatic approach than most.

I do see plenty of drama in "analysis" if one could call it that.

If it's the 280 vs 280 AI.. (that was a good catch I missed)

That's more about - do you need to feel special, or are you OCD about brass stretch.

By all means the difference difference between the vanilla 280 and the AI are really just a personal pref.

So for those who have custom rifles, ... AI is a custom bullet...


Thanks,
Spot

I musta missed the highlighted portion above when I went in the direction of the 280AI. Three in hand, and counting . . .

B U L L E T S

the above could change on a moments notice !

I wonder if different bullets have any bearing on the performance of any given cartridge.? 😉!

Nope. A bullet's a bullet.

I have always wanted a 280 AI. It's one of the few medium caliber's I have never owned. I bet they are fun to shoot.

It could!

I just fired a 280 AI for the first time this week- Rem 70, Jewell trigger, McM M40 stock, Douglass barrel & S&B scope. I borrowed it for a Scottish stag hunt. We did not see any stags on the estate over a four day period (saw one on an adjacent property last night). I did take a feral goat with the AI. The owner had just received it from the gunsmith after rechamberi g and cerakoating. I got in position and touched off the trigger- click. Recockec and squeezed again- 140 BT in goat's shoulder at 175 yards. Goat goes down, but gets back up. Repeat click, recock, bang, shoulder hit sequence. It appears that the standard 280 cases were being pushed forward instead of firing on the initial strike. Owner went home and seated bullets to touch the lands- rifle fired properly on 3 test shots.
I also shot a custom Ruger 1 in 6.5-06 with a heavy Shilen barrel, NF scope and suppressor. It weighed a ton, but was a nice shooter.

Now, I have been an Ackley Improved cartridge fan since before that Armstrong fellow stepped onto the Moon. First one was a Ruger 77 Round Top that came chambered for the .257 Roberts. I had it rechambered by Micro Sight for the Ackley version. That lash-up had no reason to shoot .375" 10 shot groups at 100 yards with a Sierra 75 grain HP, ahead of 48.0 grains of H-380, but it did. First two ground squirrels I shot were complete misses, until I noticed the log they were sitting on was coated with little pink flecks of biological foam, and found a little piece of furry hide about the size of a postage stamp. I was amazed.

I am on my third .257 Roberts Ackley, this one a custom Remington 700 with a Schneider barrel that was worked over by Greg Tannel. It cost more than my first three jalopies and first Honda motorcycle. For some strange reason I still like the .257 Ackley, although the cartridge is way overkill for varmint.

Then I branched out trying a couple of others, with the last one a .22-250 Remington Ackley Improved. Now, for this one I went a different route just to tinker with something new. Obtained a print of the chambering reamer, and gathered up two fired cases and sent them to Hornady's Custom Shop, and they made me a hydraulic case forming die and a chamber matched F.L. sizing die set. The hydraulic forming die expanded new brass with a couple blows of a dead-blow hammer to exactly fit the chamber, so that all that firing did was slightly sharpen the body to shoulder junction, otherwise no more hassle with having to fire form, or backed out primers, or short cases from forming with too light a load. Winchester brass worked best, and Lapua the worst; it's always good when the cheap stuff works best. I was in hog heaven. Thing shot bug holes, killed sage rats with enormous splats. Sounds good so far.

Here's the rub. After all that work, blap-a-doodling up cases, loading and sweating over getting everything just right, I asked myself - why? The truth is that in Ackley's day they didn't have all the powders and cartridges we enjoy today. That and the fact that ever then, the Improved cases weren't producing that much additional velocity gain. The .257 Roberts Ackley being about the most efficient with around an honest 100 -200 fps depending on bullet weight. of course some versions are good for slowing case stretch, such as the .220 Swift Ackley, but loading it to full advantage still is tough on the brass. So, I came to the conclusion that given all the available cartridges today, it just doesn't make much sense or need to dabble with the Improved case thing. They now sit proudly in my safes, unused and forlorn, while the .204 Ruger's; .223 Remingtons; 6mm PPC's; 6mm BR Norma; .243 WSSM; .25-06 Remington; 6.5-284 Norma; and a lesser used 7mm Remington Magnum; and a fantastically accurate .308 Winchester built on a Remington 700 action, do the work. After living long enough to realize that if one selects the bullet first and matches it to the specifications desired, velocity being the important factor, any cartridges that puffs it out at that speed will all shoot the same. All the rest is marketing to create interest and sales, and of course, provide entertainment for those who are bored with things practical and ordinary.

......and that being said, the 24 Hour Campfire is now closed for business.

Suggesting, if you will, that the headspace was not set correctly correct.

Whew! Someone gets it.

SSOO much better than listening to this "ultimate BG cartridge" blather but I guess you have to grapple your way through a lot of rifles and cartridges before it all starts to sink in....

Either that, or the brass had already been fired in a .280 chamber.

New brass has a slight curve between the top of the shoulder and the neck. A good gunsmith will make the chamber "crush fit" this curve when chambering for an improved round.

When brass is fired in a standard chamber this curve disappears, becoming a sharp angle, and the brass won't "crush fit" in the improved chamber.

Have seen this in more than one improved-chambered rifle. Loads in new brass will fire fine, but loads in brass previously fired in a rifle chambered for the standard cartridge often won't.

^^^ Good points.

I guess I would question why a gun would be taken on a hunting trip with ammo that didn't even match the chambering. I know that is supposed to be one of the benefits of the AI chambering, but why have an AI if the intent is to shoot 280 Rem. loads?

It would be like buying a 458 lott, and taking it on Safari with 458 win. mag. ammo only. Actually, that would be better, because it would be guaranteed to fire. But, not the purpose of the gun's chambering, either.

No one seemed to want to take the time to test fire the rifle either, which means that no testing was done with the ammo that was going to be used after coming back from the gunsmith and rechambering. Did he cerakote it with the scope in place or was it removed before placing in the curing oven?...so where was the zero?

Just questions...

I think this oryx was the first ever taken with a 280ai, and a 140 gr ttsx !

I was told that the rifle had been sighted in after rechambering and that it had misfired once or twice. The bolt was taken apart and cleaned and the rifle fired properly. I believe that the brass was previously fired in the same gun prior to the AI work. Needless to say, the owner was not happy and called the gunsmith for resolution.

And the gunsmith hopefully told him to look at the barrel stamp and use the proper ammunition for the rifle next time.

I have a std 280 in the works, NOT improved!

I see lots of used 280AIs for sale and hardly any std 280s. That tells me something.

I don't mind tinkering with loading shells. I find it time well spent or wasted depending on your view. I just don't want to piss away good money trying to get a poor platform something it can't be when I can just buy one for less. I can buy a Montana in 280AI for under $1500 and not have to have it sit at a Smith's for months. I'll have a 280AI one way or another. No offense to the 7 Remington Mag but it's almost as pedestrian as the 06 or 270. Hell of a good cartridge but I want something different. And that is probably the appeal. Something different to play with. The 30-06 and the other standard chamberings I have are just too easy.

The Kimber in 280AI is your huckleberry, but unless you are outside the US it should cost under $1200. Check with ShortActionSmoker at Whittakers guns. You cannot come close to building a rifle that will match it for that money.

Get the 280AI. If you're like most of us, you'll eventually end up with a 30-06, 270, and 7RM in the safe as well. Probably a bunch more.

So you may as well get the one you lust after now.

Standard vanilla 280Rem ammo in the 280AI is a handy option too when the extra juice isn't needed, and fireformed brass results.

Get what you like, like what you get. Anything mentioned this far with work. Focus on tags.

I looked at the Hunter in 280 AI. I was hoping it had a 24" barrel but I doubt two inches makes much difference with good powder. The list them at $891.00. Pretty good price plus $50 for the Talley mounts.

I am getting a 280 AI in a Kimber Montana. I am going to put a Leupold VX-6 2-12x42 on it. I think this will make a really nice light mountain rifle for anything I am going to go after in the lower 48.

If I were a betting man, I'd say you'd be looking at a sub-7lb rifle/scope combo when done.

Yes, I was thinking that it would be sub seven pounds as well. I think a 280 AI right at or right below seven pounds will make a good carry rifle without beating you up at the range.

7lb 3oz if you're using leupold rings and bases, could shave a bit with Talley lightweights.

Yes, I plan on getting the Talley lightweights, the titanium bolt knob and the aluminum trigger guard. That should put it right below 7 lbs I am thinking.

I want one too

When I saw your post I looked at the Kimber website, and sure enough the Hunter in 280AI shows up.

Hopefully it won't be long till they get them shipping.

Street price should be about $725-$750.

And I suspect the 22" barrel is just a cut-n-paste typo. I am sure the barrel will be 24".

I have my smith punching a 280 Mtn rifle barrel to Ackley.

It will mate up with a 700 Ti action and stock.

SU35

That's gonna be a dandy

Yeah, I think so....

Found a keg of RL26 too.

Dang. Wish I could find some

Three more reasons to get a 280ai

The moose was 560yds

The muley was 365yds

The whitetail was 390yds

All taken with my Kimber 280ai and a 140gr Barnes TTSX between November 21-26 2016







Best cartridge ever....... lol!

Damnation....

Fixed it for you!

Congrats!

Of course they can. Think FMJ that pencils through, varmint that turns to shrapnel with little penetration, hunting bullet that expands but holds together with deep penetration. Three very different performance profiles. To expect them to have the same terminal results under all circumstances is not realistic.

Wow!


David

OUTSTANDING!

Wonderful animals! Congrats!

No other cartridge coulda done that!

Sounds like the 280ai is about the same position as the 16 gauge is to shotguns.😇

Thanks Bob, I knew you'd come around sooner or later

I was only the guide on this hunt, the lucky hunter is a guy from Pennsylvania who used to be just a client but now I considered to be one of my best friends. He has been coming up hunting with me every year since 99' or 2000. Started out bringing a 338-378 but over the past few years has just used my rifles. This year was the first time he had bought all three species of tags, he's taken some pretty impressive animals over the years but we've never had to ship this much antler south at one time before.

I can't take credit for harvesting these animals, just putting him on them and making sure he had a trusty 280ai in his hands with a scope calibrated to its load while I called the ranges.

RBO: That guy owes you big time! Those are all great animals and to get all three on one trip is a really exceptional treat for both of you.

They are all great but I really love the whitetail....he is really impressive.

Alberta I assume or did I miss that? What general area?

Think it coulda been done with a 270?

Yup.

Or any number of other cartridges.

Don't nobody be talking bout no 16 gauge shotguns, my momma don't be talking bout 16 gauge shotguns. You hear me boy???

First off, I'd suggest the 7mm RM. Same bullets, higher velocities or same velocities with lower pressures (take your pick), MUCH better selection of factory ammo, identical rifles except for the chamber and possibly the cartridge follower and a wider selection of rifles, too. Essentially there is NOTHING a .280AI can do that a 7mm RM can't do but there are things a 7mm RM can do that a .280 AI cannot - particularly with heavier bullets. [Full disclosure: My first centerfire rifle was a 7mm RM back in 1982. It has been used for prairie dogs to elk.]

Secondly, I would suggest, like others here, a .30-06 as a candidate for the best "all-around" rifle choice. This is what I've purchased as wedding gifts for my current and future sons-in-law. (The future one doesn't get his until after the ceremony.) As an "all around" rifle and especially for non-handloaders, a .30-06 is hard to beat. The selection of factory ammo is second to none with options from reduced recoil to light bullets to heavies in the 220g range or more. And don't forget cheaper ammo than the .280AI for those that shoot factory stuff. And again, in rifles identical to the .280AI. While a .280AI may beat a .30-06 in specific situations, the difference is pretty minimal from a practical standpoint for most shooters. If hunting in brown bear territory, I'd much rather have a .30-06 with a 220g bullet than a .280AI.

Lastly, while there are many good candidates, in wildcats I opted for a 6.5-06AI. All three daughters love shooting mine and I'll put it up against a .280 AI any day.

Not knocking the .280AI as I think it is a fine cartridge. My choice is a standard .280 Rem and I feel no need to ream the chamber to an AI config. It works fine as-is.

It's really not that complicated.

Don't get me wrong, I am truly a lover of the 16 gauge, having as many as 16 16 gauges at one time. I also think the 280ai is a great cartridge.

It was definitely a trip to remember, and yes it was in northern Alberta. The muley was just shy of 160, the moose I'm guessing would be in the high 140's (we never measured) but the whitetail grossed over 170 and to be honest the pictures don't do it justice.

As for the 270...... doubt it.

It would have over-penetrated with 130's.

If they didn't bounce off first...

You are WAY late to the party....

Um...... nope.

Clearly this could only happen with the 280ai, I don't know what else I have to do to prove it to you guys.

Good luck with that.

I don't need luck..... I've got a 280ai!

The 280AI is basically the same as a 270 or 30/06! It does however possess some unique qualities that the 270 and 30/06 have not yet mastered. For one I have heard that you can shoot oatmeal in the 280AI cartridge, apparently a fireforming quality that neither the 270 or 30/06 are capable of actually making the 280AI more capable if one is of a reasoning mind.

Of coarse if one really wanted to they could just load a 150 gr bullet at 3000 fps in the 280 and take with ease anything the 280AI would be capable of but then you would be missing out on shooting oatmeal.



Trystan

I understand.....but it already has.


Thats a big whitetail.

First blood with the new 280 AI. I guess they work.