I've been a 6.5 fan for a long time, I'm glad the rest of the world has caught up to me =]

This list is by far not all inclusive, but covers the differences between factory advertised loaded velocity of factory 6.5 rounds with normal bullet weights, rounded off to the nearest 100fps. sure with handloads and some magic you can probably beat this by 100-200fps if you really tried, or if your barrel is chopped off to 18" you probably can't get to within 200 fps of this velocity, but it's a starting point for comparison.

It also lists the action length and bolt face required if you were to get one built, or if you are looking to convert:

Don't forget the Weatherby.

A Creedmoor or 260 will require a fair bit more barrel than 22" to achieve 2,800 with a 140.

The Swede is shortchanged in the chart, showing a 140 at only 2,700. It's at least as capable as the Creedmoor and 260, and likely more so loaded to equal pressures.

Interestingly, Western Powder lists 3k from the 6.5-284 Winchester with a 142 SMK, but only a rounded-off 2900 from the same combo in the longer 6.5-284 Norma. For whatever reason, they don't take advantage of the longer COAL of the Norma chamber for that one. I haven't loaded that bullet in my Norma, so maybe there's a problem hanging onto the bullet shank if you try to seat it that long.



Sierra's data shows 2800 with their 140-142 class bullets out of the Creedmoor, with the SAAMI-standard 24" barrel.

The Swede can't touch the Creedmoor or the 260 when loaded to CIP or SAAMI max pressures. Once you start playing the yabbut game, speculating about maybes when going off-book, you're not comparing anything but daydreams.

No 6.5x47 Lapua ????

Or 6.5 PRC

Disclaimer, I don't have a Swede so this is only a guess.

Since the action used was a short action would the 140 gr bullet take up more room in the case than say the same bullet in the Creedmoor and limit velocity?

The Swede has slightly more capacity than the Creed or .260. The smaller cartridges get more speed from higher pressures. Load all three to the SAME not SAAMI pressure and the biggest one wins. Maybe not by enough to sacrifice other considerations, but still.

I don't have any trouble getting 2750-2800 with a 140gr in the 6.5X55. 22" barrel.

I still think you should sell that to your buddy to the West, and buy a flashy new 26 Nosler............it's SO much faster.

222,
You might be able to find one of those 6.5X55 Howas at Sportsman's Warehouse. Not sure you have one close by, but Boise, perhaps would have one?
And yes, I have been looking at the 26 Nosler. 264 Win, also.

I'm trying to stay away from Boise to let the Visa cool from December's action. But yeah, the Sportsmans might have one.

Cabelas gets picked over to much to produce much anymore.

The 6.5x55 is the slightly bigger engine and will drive the same bullets slightly faster than the Creedmoor or 260.

No daydreaming necessary.

Show us the data. Mark it as suitable for Ruger #1 only or something, like some 45-70 data is marked. Run the pressure testing in accordance with SAAMI or CIP procedures and publish it with the MAP you used. Many would thank you for it, I believe.

The concept is certainly correct, but it seems that none who want to compare things on an 'equal pressure' basis ever show the pressure data, nor even any evidence that they have any, nevermind getting either American or European industry buy-in on the idea.

C.I.P. has essentially done that with the 6.5x55 SKAN, a 6.5x55 variation that's very slightly elongated in the body so it won't fit in standard chambers, to allow loading to higher pressures. The neck is also a little longer, but the dimensions are otherwise identical.

Vihtavuori's data, loaded to a maximum of 380 MPa (approxmately 55,000 PSI) shows 3058 fps with the 120-grain Scenar-L, and 2887 fps with the 139 Scenar, both with N560 powder. They don't list the barrel length, as they do with other rounds, just that the "test bed" was a Sauer STA 200. That barrel length could be found somewhere, but no doubt it's somewhere in the normal sporter range.

How many Swedes have you shot or owned?

Been telling myself that somehow I need a Finnlight chambered 260rem, but when reading these threads, I realize, I'd be rather well served with one chambered 6.5x55, instead.

Agreed. You'll have the same action length, why not get a bit more with the 6.5x55 You can run the fabulous Lapua or Hornady brass. I'd rather breath easy with a 140 at 2,700 than strain to get there (or whatever speed you think is appropriate).

You guys crack me up!

A 6.5 Swede, a 6.5 Creed, and a 260 Rem don't have lick of difference between them! Best case scinario you can get one to shoot with 1" less drop at 600yds?

In a hunting rifle advantage goes to 6.5 Creed or 260 Rem if you want a short action ultralight, if you don't care about action length or physical weight, or you're just shooting paper then advantage goes to the best bullet load.

Keep telling yourself the 6.5 Swede is the best because you can eek out 17fps more speed out of it, or the 6.5 Creed is the best because you can get the best selection of factory ammo for it, or the 260 Rem is the best because you can get Lapua brass in a short action 6.5......

You all are right for your specific need, but in terms of actual performance, there just ain't enough difference to see it other than on paper (and I don't mean targets).


The real winner is the 26 Nosler.

My favorite isn't even on the list.

The 6.5X54 Mann/Scho.
160 gr R.N. bullet at 2340 FPS.

Why?
Because I like the rifle.

I appreciate your reply, however this is not at all what I proposed. What you describe is an even _larger_ case, loaded to the normal CIP pressure limit of 3800 bar. People here are hypothesizing (likely correctly, but 'show me the data...') about how their favorite 'coulda bina contenda' if they'd just be allowed to over-pressure it until it goes as fast as the neighbor's cartridge. While again I agree that the premise is basically sound, you don't get to compare speeds at unknown/daydream pressures.

All that said, I cannot find a 6.5x55 SKAN in CIP's data files. I _can_ find an Italian-origin (according to CIP) cartridge they call the 6,5x55 T.R.I. It appears to be what you describe, but it also has a 5mm longer COAL. So, it's sort of a 6.5x55AI built for an '06-length COAL. Of _course_ that will run faster than a 6.5x55 Swede!

Here are the links to the CIP cartridge drawings for the Swede and the T.R.I. cartridges:

http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-i/6-5-x-55-t.pdf

http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-i/6-5-x-55-se-en.pdf

Unfortunately, at this moment there is only a German file for the T.R.I., but it's easy to see the dimensional differences.

I'm happy to add the weatherby or PRC when they exist somewhere besides Al Gores Internet... I need to fix the action length on the 6.5x55 also... cut and paste typo.

;]

Again these are rounded numbers that are based on widely published factory loads. Your 38" wondertube loaded 15% over SAAMI can surely beat it, and no 18" factory pencil barrelled carbine will touch it.

Also some cartridge pressure curves are capped by the era in whch they were created and the structural integrity of the rifles. Loading a 6.5x55 to 6.5 creedmoor pressures might be fine in a Remington 700 or Winchester M-70, but those pressures wouldn't be kosher in a gun built in 1890 or whenever it was created. That is where SAAMI puts the pressure limit, on the lowest common denominator. You go over that in any platform, you do so on your own...

It is what it is, just here for comparison for those wondering how these new (or newly popularized) cartridges compare...

...or to realize that they for the most part are the same

:]

I like it. It's a good comparison, and indeed clearly shows how crowded the space presently is!

MZ5,

The difference in case capacity between the 6.5x55 SKAN and "standard" 6.5x55 is so small that a few grains difference in case weight would switch their capacity. The difference in length from the case head to the shoulder is only .006 inch, and all the other body measurements are exactly the same, including the shoulder angle. So it is not an "even larger case."

Hodgdon 2016 Annual Manual RELOADING data.

ALL loads in 24" barrels, max fps/loads used in each caliber.

6.5 Creedmoor 142 gr. Sierra HPBT 2737 FPS @ 57,100 PSI

260 Remington 142 gr. Sierra HPBT 2747 FPS @ 58,700 PSI

6.5x55 Swe.Mau. 142 gr. Sierra HPBT 2725 FPS @ 46,100 CUP


The poor old Swede seems to be keeping up..and that pressure is for the older M96 action too.

NOSLER Load Data from their website:

6.5 Creedmoor 24" barrel Max load 140-142 gr. 2731 FPS.

260 Remington 24" barrel Max Load 140-142 gr. 2830 FPS.

6.5x55 Swede 23" barrel max Load 140 142 gr. 2790 FPS.
(add 1" to the swede barrel and gain 20 fps.)

Fair enough. I still can't find that case anywhere but Viht's website. CIP only has the Italian one I linked to with the longer COAL. It also has a different shoulder angle. In fairness, the COAL alone makes it an "even larger case."

So, does anyone but Viht acknowledge the SKAN?

Norma's manual shows just one 6.5x55, and loads it to CIP spec of 3800 bar. Their data shows it to be about as much slower than the 260 (with the same 140-class bullets) as the 260 is slower than the 6.5-284 Norma.

MZ5,

It is not a question of the capabilities of the 6.5 swede cartridge at max pressures, but what liability industry is willing to take in publishing those loads with regard to older/weaker actions that those max loads potentially could be used in.

The 260 rem., creed. and swede are all within a few grains of capacity with the swede having the highest, so will have the higher velocities(albeit by just a scoche) of the three, at the same pressures.

One thing is for sure......

The 260 and the 6.5 creedmoor will both do what the 6.5 swede has been doing for 120 years now!



Trystan

MZ5,

Do you comprehend that physically the case with larger capacity always has more velocity potential when loaded to equal pressures?

No further testing would be required to "prove" this, since it is based on the laws of physics.

Plus, they'll do it in a shorter action.

I just picked one up from Sportsman's for $299.

Not in a Tikka... in which case I'd do the 6.5x55. Bigger engine.

That's what I paid for mine a few weeks back. Can't hardly say 'no' to that!

"One size fits all" actions aren't my cup of tea, therefore no Tikkas.

I think that all of my short action cartridge in long action rifle are all Husqvarnas, Mausers, and Winchesters.

I concur. I'd not own a Tikka, but they're very popular.

Me, I'm more a SA guy, and to me the 6.5's are all about SA's, or in the case of the 6.5x55, a "mid-sized" Mauser-type action. If I want something in a LA I'm going to a bigger caliber than 6.5.

I don't "get" LA 6.5mm Magnums.

Of course. Did you not see that I have said as much in this thread? That's not the issue. The issue is people taking the general theory and trying to apply it to specific circumstances without any way to test or validate the application of their hypothesis in the specific circumstance. There are at least 2 things that jump immediately to my mind that, in this instance, might allow the imaginings to be exactly true, or might make them impossible.

I've tested quite a few of these sorts of hypotheses myself, using my Pressure Trace. What I've found is that they're rarely to never what they're claimed to be. That doesn't mean they _can't_ be real in this instance. It simply means that my experience with hard data tells me one thing: Show me the data.

I am closely acquainted with the people who run two of the major piezo labs, which do the pressure testing for most of the handloading powders sold in the U.S. In answer to question with a slightly different context, they told me a couple of years ago that powder capacity is THE factor in how much velocity in possible in two cases of the same caliber, loaded to the same pressure.

I specifically asked whether they'd ever found any of the magic velocity some cartridge developers claim due to shoulder angle, or how long or short a case might be. The answers from both places were an emphatic no--both adding the detail that the only factor in potential velocity is powder capacity, everything else being equal. The corollary would be that larger capacity does NOT result in less velocity when cases of the same caliber are loaded to the same pressure, regardless of case shape.

Both of those labs have been running "experiments" along those lines for many years, with state of the art pressure equipment.

Yup.

Engine size matters.

Yes, once again, we all agree that the theory is there, even if we gloss over the details that make things unequal.



Respectfully, one of those two labs is apparently ignorant of the ramifications of the differences between the various instrumentation systems, as evidenced by their publication of data at multiple pressure levels for the 223 Rem. They appear to be conflating the instrumentation from one system with the numerical value derived from another.



That's where the potential issue comes from. Things that are different are not the same. To choose a single example of how this always makes things unequal: No one powder is _equally_ optimized for two different-capacity cartridges. This is why ALL data manuals show ALL tested cartridges yielding different speeds for ALL the powders they test in it with a given bullet; no two of the powders is equally optimized for the cartridge-bullet combo.

I recognize that the need to use tested data rather than speculation when making comparisons between cartridges upsets some of the preferred views here. I've said enough in this thread, so carry on with the musings.

This makes an awful lot of sense.

Have you shot yours yet? If so, how did it do?

My Howa 1500 in 6.5x55 has a long throat, so there is a bit of freebore with lighter bullets. I shoots good, but not as good as its brothers in 6.5 Creedmoor. I like the 140 grain BT and/or Partition over H4895 in my Remington 700 Classic and Winchester/USRA 70 Fwt, but haven't found the sweet spot for the Howa yet.

MZ5,

The reason one of the labs publishes CUP and PSI data side-by-side isn't because they're ignorant of the differences, but because SAAMI decided a few years ago to switch entirely to electronic PSI data. But so many new powders, cartridges and bullets appear constantly that pressure labs can't just retest everything in a month or two, since they're kept very busy just keeping up with new stuff. So they continue publish the CUP data, because it's still valid, even if the numbers are different.

Yes, different powders will result in different velocities in different cartridges, often enough that a "perfect" powder for a smaller round may result in slightly higher velocities than for a larger round. But that's basic stuff--that may change next week when another new powder appears that allows much higher velocities from the larger cartridge.

However, we were not discussing such powder-induced differences, but the basic overall trend in case capacity. Limited tests can also be influenced by individual barrels, which definitely can allow a smaller cartridge to reach higher velocities than a larger cartridge, but the millions of rounds and thousands of barrels used by big pressure labs would tend to even that out. Plus, there are so many powders these days that any specific advantage of one powder in a certain cartridge would almost certainly be eliminated by testing a wide variety of powders.

But since you apparently won't accept the results of two major professional labs, I'll note that Charlie Sisk, the well-known gunsmith, and I have performed quite a few experiments with his Pressure Trace that so far have confirmed their conclusions. These included rechambering the SAME barrel to different cartridges, to see what difference in pressure might result.

This was relatively easily done since Charlie's shop includes an indoor, air-conditioned benchrest room where pressure-testing (and shooting targets on an indoor 100-yard range) can be done in a controlled environment, only a few feet from his loading bench. The results of some of these tests have already been published, so I'm not going to repeat such "musings" here, but it would be relatively easy to run such test with same barrel first chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor, then rechambered to 6.5x55. However, I'm not particularly interested, since due to both the conclusions of the big labs and our own experiments, I'm sure what the results would be--and I'm sure Charlie is too.

Only "cubes" count in an internal combustion engine. Over the last 50 years I can't come close to remembering how many articles/studies I've read that came up with the same conclusion cited by Mule Deer.

One of the pressure-lab guys even used the old internal-combustion standby, "There is no replacement for displacement!"

John,

How does Hornady get a significant jump in velocity at safe working pressures with their Superformance line? Hornady claims 100 to 200 fps more speed than "standard" factory ammo.

Jeff

How old is your Howa 6.5x55? I read a little on them and they made some dimensional changes that were supposed to help with the accuracy. That and they put a new HACT trigger in them.

I bought it used on this site in 09/2015.

The SN is B2872xx if that helps any.

Jeff,

Hornady Superformance ammo uses powders that already burn more progressively (starting out burning, then burning more rapidly as pressure rises) than most other powders, pushing the pressure peak further down the barrel.

In the factory ammo the powder is also specifically blended for a rather narrow use-range, say the .270 Winchester and cartridges of similar powder-bore ratio. They'll use another blend for the .308 Winchester and similar rounds, etc. (This is why the Superformance powder sold to handloaders doesn't result in higher velocities across the board. It's the ".30-06 blend," so won't produce the same sort of increase in, say, the .264 Winchester Magnum.)

That .30-06 blend ain't that bad in a .30-06....


Haven't chronographed it, but thru my 27 inch heavy barreled '98, in '06, the SuperPerfomance 150's print 6 inches high and 3 inches right of Corelokt 150's at 300 yards. Both factory ammo.

I took a caribou just hours ago at a ranged 347 yards with a dead on + slightly high hold with Superperformance 150. The rifle is zeroed with that ammo at 300 and prints 3 shot groups at that range right at 1 inch, plus or minus.

No, the rifle is not for sale.

My money went for a 6.5-06AI.

130 Scirocco II, 3161fps with IMR 7828SSC
140g BT, 3075fps with Hodgdon H100V.

Evidently not too shabby in a 6.5 Creedmoor with 140/143 gr. bullets...

DF

I was discussing the specifics of individual cartridges and asking for tested pressures & speeds, but then you and others threw estimates and generalizations into the discussion. I acknowledged time after time that the generalization is generally correct (which strikes me as kind of the definition of a generalization?), but to show me the _specific_ data. That's because to not do so is how people who don't really grasp what they're doing go and hurt themselves by disregarding tested load data and pressure limits, searching for just a little more speed. Now you've gotten lost in the generalizations and lost sight of our initial agreement and my call for either specific test data for the combo in question, or to stick with the published test data.

Concerning the lab: I refer to the publication of 2 different PSI pressure levels for a particular cartridge, not CUP vs PSI.

I'm with you Coyote Hunter. I have shot 6.5s for years to include a 256 Newton, a standard 6.5-06, and now a 6.5-06AI. Love the 6.5-06AI so much I am have a second one built. The first is a hunting rifle, the one being built is a an F Class target rifle.

Great case, easy to fire form and reload, and not a barrel burner. Delivers the velocities and accuracy I want with a 140gr bullet.

Barstooler

I'll stay with the little 6.5x54 [img:center][/img] [img:center][/img]

Do you know who "GS" was?

The only thing I don't know.The rifle was built by Austrian gunmaker Josef Mischitz and engraved by Austrian master Albin Obiltschnig.

Nice!

DF

MZ5. I've run several- Swedes. 260s and a -308 pre 260. Creedmoor. And a 47. Also ran a TCU but that's another story.

MY Chrono confirms what Brad said. Size matters. Capacity goes up. Speed higher. Really that simple.

All else equal - i.e. Bbl length - It's all in the capacity

Flip a coin. Learn how to thread vitals using a proper bullet with any and carry a sharp knife. The rest is good discussion.

ha ha ha... carry a sharp knife!

probably the least covered portion of hunting ettiquitte!

Thats why Benchmade and Bark River are so popular... you dull em up, you send them back and they sharpen them and return them to you!