I was just over at the deer hunting forum of this site and read about these guys using 223 on deer. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Thing is I have been thinking on using my 223 this winter on Cougar. I have a one in nine twist barrel so a 65-70 grain soft point is easy to stabalize. Anyone here use 223 on Cougar? I dont think I would ever shoot past 250 yards and most shots would be under 150.

Never done it, but sure dont know why it wouldnt work....


Ingwe

There was a video on U-tube with a guy shooting a treed Cougar with an AR rifle. He was not very happy. Search for it, it is pretty exciting. The animal deserves proper dispatching. And they move real fast. Use something more substantial. A majestic animal like that deserves better. Just an opinion. Tom.

You will do a lot better with a 55gr TTSX moving fast. Lots of Cougar get shot each year with a 22 Magnum, but that is out of trees. With a close enough range, and a good .224 bullet well placed, no reason it will not work just fine.

my choice in a 223 would be a 63g Sierra semi point, I want some tissue damage inside.

If you shoot one through the lungs, wait a while before you go stalking after him.

Rainshadow1 is giving a talk on cougar hunting on Nov. 14th at the Lacy Cabellas. See his post below. I am coming as well as several others who are local. You might want to check it out.

Hmmmmmm Nov 14th, eh? Might have to schedule some biz ness over there.

There was a article in the small caliber news were a guy killed a called cougar with a 17 tactical (30 grain bullet) with no problems.

Dink

I sure hope you could make it. Would love to have a face to face with you after all these years.

Cougars, like bobcats, are thin skinned and not hard to kill. You will do fine with a .223 and a good bullet. With that said, if I was specifially going for a cougar, I would personally take my 7mm-08.

Good hunting!

Bob

the guys I know who run dogs for mountain lions would tell you only if you take a head shot, otherwise no way. if you shoot em through the ribs and it takes them a little time to die, they can make an awful mess of dogs in a short period of time.

if you're calling them in, a 223 will work but as mentioned, I would give them some time before going looking for them.

A buddy of mine shot a cougar with a .17 Mach IV a few years back. He was hunting Bobs when he stumbled into the cougar and took an easy broadside shot. He returned home for his .270 before following the cat into the brush where he found it dead. He knew he was under-gunned, but wasn't going to pass up an easy cougar.

I take my .223rem with me when I try and go calling. However if I go after where I know a Cougar has been sighted I will grab the .243win.

I don't doubt the killing power of the .223rem, I have seen it do just fine on deer. But I still wouldn't pass up on a shot just because I had a .223

I would just use a standard soft point 55 grainer. Lions are very easy to kill. Whether called or treed, lions are usually a short range affair. 22 LRs and 17 HMRs kill they very well, as does most anything. If you do use a lesser expanding bullet, take advice from above and wait a while before finding him. I've killed a fair number of cats, but the most trouble I have seen is from stout buulets blowing right through the animal and not doing a lot of damage. FMJs out of a 38 special have caused 2 expensive vet bills in my presence.

If it can kill a insurgent

It can kill a cougar.

Whether a .223 is a good choice for cougars depends more on how you plan to hunt than on that caliber or the bullet in it.

.223 will kill cougars well, no doubt, especially with frangible bullets if the cat offers a shot into its chest cavity. But it is not only how easy lions are to kill but how hard they are to find after the killing shot if they run.

Unless there are dogs along to follow up the shot, wounded cougars can be extremely difficult to trail or blood trail unless you have snow. For bare ground in brush etc. my own choice is to make sure I have an exit wound and hope it bleeds enough to follow. On moss or duff, a soft footed animal like a cougar leaves nothing to trail unless there is blood.

My son shot one with a 180 grain Core-lokt in 30-06 and we had a hard time finding the dead cat on moss in timber. The lion was hit mid ribs, angling back to exit behind the last rib. Intestine plugged the exit hole so no blood came out. After the spot of the hit, we only found a few drops in his first jumps, none after that. We found the cougar dead within 100 yards as I recall, by circling the direction it ran. In thick brush we might not have found it.

A list of factors that drive my choice of lion rifle start with tack driving accuracy to thread a shot through a small hole in brush at a cougar sneaking in on the call. Such cats often give little choice in selecton of bullet placement, so a robust bullet up to less than ideal shot angles is next. An exit hole to leak more blood is important, but not a big hole to damage the hide too much. Those last two preferences are in conflict.

For now, my compromise on all points is a 95 grain Nosler Partition in a .243, and I keep planning to try some solid copper bullets. Fairly tough bullets in moderate velocity .24, .25, 6.5's and 7mm's seem to fit our style of lion hunting. They are cheerfully more than needed, and with the right bullets give consistent exits (I.e. probable blood trail) without massive damage to the hide.

This post dittos Bobcat's comment, only he said with fewer words! Good luck with whatever you use.

I would think the 223 with the 64 grain PowerPoint would be about right.

I killed a couger with an AR-15 in 223 with a hand loaded 55 grain Ballistic tip. It was a small cougar, about 35-40 pounds. Hit it back in the ribs kinda high, as it was running away at about 75 yards. It made it 10-15 yards and piled up.
When I go back out and courgar are around while I call, I take my DPMS AP-4 in 308 with 125 BT's. I'm not concerned with fur though.

Read an article once by the late Bob Milek, he preferred a Ruger Single Six .22 mag for treed cats, apparently they are not hard to kill.

As long as they don't jump on top your head after you fire that shot! I know an outfitter (Boykin) who lives in Wyoming and hunts cats. He once had a hot-shot hunter, walk up to a treed lion and then lay down his 35-Remington rirle, only to pull out his carry pistol and try to dispatch a treed mountain lion. The shot was not perfect and the cat pounced on him tearing off his ear, and scalping him to boot. Then it ran off in a hurry, dogs giving chase. The best dog got sliced open and died later. The .223 is a VARMINT ROUND!!! Not a big game round suited for big game animals. You can use your car as a truck to haul light loads but that does not make it a truck people.

I suppose that .223 with FMJ could kill an elephant too but I sure don't want to be the one behind the trigger. The animal deserves a clean fast kill and therefore I say to you and others, use a bigger caliber. Remember these animals can kill you if backed into a corner or given the chance. Something like a .308 Winchester or even a plan 30-30 would be better than a light bullet. I would use my .444 Marlin with a 265 grain "leverevolution" bullet, its lethal medication for any cougar.

How many big game animals have you killed with the 223?

Cats die easy.

Buddy of mine that runs a LOT of cats uses a 410 shotgun and 2.5" home rolled slugs or his 223 handi-rifle with 50gr vmax's to kill them over dogs. I would imagine that he's been in on more cat kills than most people have killed deer.

I do not hunt big game animals with a varmint/predator caliber savvy!!! I believe in using enough gun and proper bullet weight for the game intended.

The .223 is a very good varmint round but that is as far as it goes in my book. Couger need a larger caliber than a P-DOG gun.

That would be my exact sentiment.

I agree totally!
I own a .45-70 that I bought for bear, but I sure as heck wouldn't use it on a cat.

Me too....Which is why I set my girlfriend up with my 223AI and a 45gr TSX on the weekend to poke a hole in her first buck, which is her second deer.

Talk to what you know Tonk, not to what you think you "know".

OK your lady friend shot a buck! Great for her but the fact remains Pal that the .223 was not designed to kill big game animals period. I know what to use and how to use it for a fact!!! I have only been doing this since the mid-50's.

Now as to what I know about big game hunting, I'll just tell you that my wife wants us to purchase another house, as additonal space is hard to come by at our home of 3600sq ft, the trophy's on the wall are to crowded. Now you can tell me all about your big game hunting success and I am all ears.

As to what you know about big game hunting? No idea....Do know however, that you are missing the mark when it comes to big game killing....


I'm not one much to brag about success in the field, although that doesn't seem to be an affliction you share.

You live in the midwest? Which means, what, whitetails?

Big deal.

Just because you are old, doesn't make you knowledgeable or wise, Pal.

I believe in using enough gun and proper bullet construction for the game intended.

That's better.

A cougar is at best medium game. A 223 with anything besides a FMJ is if anything, overkill. Tonk, I don't doubt you've killed a lot, but its obvious you have not done much lion hunting.

Dog hunter, killing a treed cougar is not much in the way of lion hunting, your right. However, I have done so several times using a 30-30 Winchester, .270 Winchester and later on a .444 Marlin. Now that is a lion stopper just in case you don't know! Yes, I reside in the mid-West, Missouri as matter of fact but don't think for one minute I spent my entire life just hunting friggin whitetail deer Boys!!!

My whitetail deer gun consists of a .444 Marlin and a 6.5/06. The mule deer getter is a 7mm mag and the elk gun is a .338 Win mag backed up by a .338/06. My bear rifle is a .375-Wby and my African batter is a .300 Win mag, .416 Rem. mag and a .475-mag cal. all on model 70 actions.

I have hunted Canada many times, South America twice and every friggin state out West except Nevada at least twice some a dozen or more. Hunted TENN. GA. Alabama and North Carolina a bunch. Gee, I almost forgot the place they call Africa too! Now some more music for your ears BUD! I have put together at least a half dozen varmint rifles over the years when Johnny Ray was alive. I do consider myself something other than a whitetail deer hunter from the Show Me State. I'll stand by my statement that a .223 cal. should not be used on Cougars (mountain lion) and I myself would never tell anyone to do so or even use it on whitetail deer for that matter.

It sounds like you have done you're share of hunt'n (and like to brag about it). Nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with using big guns. I have killed whitetails with a .450 Marlin as well as a .375 H&H and .340 Wby. Good rifles, but a .223 can easily kill them just as easily. This horse has been beaten into a deep hole, especially in the elk forum.

You keep shooting cats with your .444. Nothing wrong with that. I'll keep shooting them with a .22LR. The guy I run hounds with has been very sucessful with his .17 HMR revolver. Most times they just fall out of the tree dead. I've never seen one run more than 20-40 yards after hit good with a .22 or 17 rimfire. I'll still wager you have not been on too many cat hunts, let alone experienced seeing their reaction to a . Carry on.

Dog Hunter.........I'll just tell you that yes, I have NEVER seen anyone go on a "mountain lion hunt" with a rifle in the .223 caliber and besides that I have never met a guide who would let a client use such a caliber on a cougar savvy. Not in the state of Idaho or Wyoming.

Anybody going to kill a friggin animal the size of a mountain lion, who would use a .17HMR, just is not playing with a full deck of cards. I too carry a pistol on hunts but it is a Smith & Wesson model 29....44 magnum! Please use common sence Geez.

.22lr can kill just about anything in northern america with a VERY WELL placed shot in the right situation. that being said I dont recommend using it on elk. either way whatever you are killing cougars with is GOOD ENOUGH! as long as they are DEAD who the hell cares what you shoot them with. just my 0.02

Dog hunter..IIRC, Cap Atwood,who made quite a name for himself hunting lions in Colorado back in the day, preferred a K-22 Smith& Wesson....

Hollow point through the lungs, cat was dead when he came out of the tree...I'm just sayin.....

As for using .22 centerfires on other deer sized game.....let me think that one over....

Let me think here too Ingwe. I'll bet your thinking 53 gr. tsx. I may be wrong, but.......Nope I was right

Only an idiot would use such a little cartridge for shooting deer and the like.....

I know. Because it would way overpenetrate and we know we wouldn't want that

I have a question though ingwe. If a guy didn't have any IMR 4895 on hand, but he did have 8 pounds of H335; would that work just as well? Have you personally tried that powder with the tsx?

You are of course right..Id better step it up to a .223AI or .22-250

Ingwe, I believe you are correct about Cap Atwood. I seem to remember reading some pieces on him.



That would be me...

I don't really like showing my face on the internet. Couldn't tell you why.
Here's one I got within tail grabbing distance of to determine if it was a tom/lioness.


To the OP, use your .223. It will be just fine with any standard soft point bullet and a lung shot.

I like that pic!...

Me too. The guy taking it is probably saying hurry up and shoot that thing!!!!

Glad you guys like it. We actually got close enough to jump him off the rock so the younger dogs could give chase again. I ended up shooting him out of a really thick willow tree a few hundred yards away from where that pic was taken. I couldn't have been 10 feet away when I squeezed off.

This cat made for quite a story and was the last time I used a FMJ on a cat. I forgot my cheap practice ammo was on my 357 belt, and I was the only one who had a gun. Live and learn. Had a nice vet bill that afternoon.

DOH!


DH: Have you eaten the meat....?

I tried it a couple times and REALLY liked it!!

I have actually, but just the backstrap. It cooks up light colored like pork. It really was not too bad. I'll be having it again.

Pork it is! same color, consistency, flavor...
FWIW leopard is similar....

Have bang flopped mule deer at 140 yards with 22 hornet. I would lion hunt with a 22 hornet.

Got more here not "playing with a full deck": Deal me in .

Being in la la land is fun huh? It adds excitment to life. One day I'll tell ya about the cave a lioness/kittens crawled into, with the dogs following. That'll get your heart rate up! I don't actually own hounds, but hunt quite a bit with some friends who do.
I know another very sucessful guy that hunts lions exclusively with a .22 hornet in a break action. H&R I think.
I know the OP is talking about called cougars, but that's not what me and Tonk are arguing over.

Yep, it is fun.

And, I understand your point. I am not a fan of the 17 rimfires. Not even for ground squires let alone dangerous animals. But the lowly old hornet wit a 40 gr V-max is way underrated. I have yet to shoot at any animal and just wound it let alone get away. The little guy just gets the job done.

The 223 will work, but I wouldn't choose it as the IDEAL round for Lions. Namely because how often do you get a shot? And how many of those are IDEAL shots? Use enough gun.

They're easy to punch through, but hard to switch off.

What this thread needs is some pics a hot cougar shooting a .223...

Mark Zepp has a video on one of his dvds -Free Grass & No Fences -where an acquaintance using Zepp's 223 shot a 76lb female mtn lion at 25yds.

He says it was hit in both lungs and went about 80yds before piling up. The video shows it staggering off trying to get it together.

The correct bullet.....the best bullet placement.....and the ability of the shooter.....plus the tenacity of the individual animal.....it all rolls together.

Well you all have convinced me I am wrong. I am having an AR converter to 460 Weatherby with a belt feed. It will me my calling gun.

If I am after game that can eat me, such as a cougar... I'd like the biggest weapon possible available..

so in that Scenario, I'd take Big Stdick along...once the animal was dead still, being in total AWE after Big Stdick impressed it with all of his experience, you could just walk over and smack it on the head with a rubber mallot..

of course, the 'real experts'... such as Big Stdick... could just walk over and "knock it over with a feather"... no hide damage or nothing...

in a situation like that, you need a 'professional'!!!

It is just real hard to beat a stoked up "triple 4 Marlin" using Leverevolution ammo or hardcast bullets for any mountain lion in New Jersey or Montana. The lever gun is fast to shoulder and it does not hesitate in throwing those big slugs into a Big Kitty!!!

A cousin of mine was very safisfied with a 22" barreled 22-250 on mtn lion. So much so that those he took with him had to use it because he new what it would do and he said his dogs were too important to him to let people use something else.

I think a person should use what they are comfortable with, but the dogs were his.

If you are going to hunt them with dogs and shoot them out of a tree or off a rockpile, yes a .223 will work fine.

However if you are going to try your had at a real challenge, calling one in by yourself, then I would go with something a bit heavier. The chance of getting a broad-side shot when calling one to your stand is not good. More likely you are going to see nothing.......then suddenly one magically appears, poised and staring a hole in you straight on. Your choice will then be to try a head shot, or thread the needle under his chin and into his throat. If you hit the breastbone with a .223 you may only wound the animal.

So an Encore in 460 Weatherby is the best option?

Just killed one last week with a 9mm Kimber.

Wow! A 9mm didn't just bounce off?

I shot a bobcat a few years back with a 9mm. It took three shots, none exited the body cavity. A Bobcat's like 4" thick. He died up in the tree, we had to climb that big old fir to get him out. I shot 5 lions. 4 with arrows, and one with a .280 Rem. The arrow shot cats died quicker than the .280 cat.

My Dec issue of Predator Xtreme has been laying around for weeks and i'm finally gettin around to read it.

On page 6 there's a full page article- with pics- from a reader who shot in self defense a lion. Was scouting for elk and decided to try to call a coyote or two.

A lion snuck in and pounced at him. He managed to get off one shot and nailed it at the end of his outstretched leg.

He didn't state the chambering but was using a Hornady 55 grn V-max. Bullet impacted between the front legs into the chest cavity. The lion reared up on its hind legs and collapsed.

NMG&F was contacted and no citations were issued but the lion was confiscated by the officer.

SeaFire normally I would chastise you for bagging on a campfire member who didn't even post on this topic. In this particular case you are just asking for a pantless photo to appear.

a 60 grain partition woujld be even better

I guess I will have to give up on ever shooting a cougar. I just priced a double rifle in 505 Gibbs. Ain't no way I can afford one so, if another one comes walking down the driveway I will just wave a white flag and surrender.

Guess being made into cat poop is cheaper than a regular funeral.

I've seen several big black bears fall out of trees DRT after a single spat from a .22mag,,, all nice clean head shots,,, that said,,, on the ground I'd rather have a 30-30 lever action or better yet a 44mag lever with HPs,,, I think that would be great puddy cat medication as well. Any range involved over 100 yards,,, then 7mm-08 and a 100 grain HP would be nice for kitty,,, course I've never killed a mnt lion and probably never will,,, seen a few though in NV and Idaho

I know of an Old Timer who thinks .22LR solids are enough for treed cats------------with only three rounds in the rifle! Of course if you've been chasing cats for 60yrs you tend to develop an opinion on what works....

I DON'T have that kind of experience, and wouldn't for a second attempt the same feat.

sounds like my grandpa on bears,,, he killed many many treed bears with a .22lr,,,

There are two great topics going on here parrallel. One is like shooting fish in a barrel with a retriever to recover the fish. The other is like shooting fish in the ocean with no retriever.

.22 is what my old hound friends used on treed cougars. It worked fine.

Called lions (and incidental ones) in my part of the world seldom give the shooter much time or choice for shot placement. Without snow they leave the scene on trackless moss and duff. In this second scenario, a cartridge more likely to put the lion down nearby with a bloodtrail to his whereabouts is mo betta.