Penitration or lack there of

I went along on a muzzleloader Mule deer hunt a few weeks ago with 3 friends. I was the only one not hunting. My friends were using modern in line Knight and Traditions rifles in .50 cal. They also used Pyradex pellets, sabots and jacketed bullets in the 240-260gr. weight class.
 
 Three deer were taken at ranges of 40-60yds. The deer were 2 forked horns and one 3x3. All were average sized deer for the area. All shots were broad side. None of the bullets exited.
 
 All the deer either dropped in their tracks or within a few yards of point of impact. Though mortally wounded, they all required a finisher.
 
 Frankly I was surprised these bullets did not penetrate completely. Is this performance typical of what a person can expect from a modern muzzleloader? A 4-inch 44mag shooting similar weight bullets would do as well if not better. I think it would be hard to keep them inside a broad side deer at 50yds or so.
 
 These bullets seemed to have plenty of killing power for deer sized animals. Elk and up would need a bit, maybe quite a bit more.
 
 What kinds of performance have you guys seen on game? Is lack of penetration a problem?

I have very limited experience with this, bit have used a similar bullet over 70 gr. of pyrodex on one deer. That bullet penetrated the "elbow knuckle", went through the heart and out the ribs on the off side. Range was about 30 yards, I was pleased.
 
 I used a 240gr Knight bullet.
 
 I would think the bullets used were quick expanding "defensive pistol" bullets, not older JHPs or Nosler Partitions. But that is just a guess.
 
 If it was me I would not be satisfied with that level of penetration and would look for an older bullet design that expands slower.
 
 Bob

I'll keep a long story (nightmare) short. I shot two bulls with Black Belt 405 grain (?) .50 cal hollow points. They were the recommendation of choice at the local ML shop.
 
 Well, on a broadside shot they have a tough time making it as far as the second lung. I lost a super bull early in the hunt and spent most of 3 days trying to locate him. I'm POSITIVE about the shot placement as I had plenty of time to watch the bull after the shot. Anyway, drilled another nice bull 4 days later at only 30 yards and he just stood there. After 5+ minutes he hadn't tipped over so managed to reload while prone and put another in him. This time he layed down, but after 10 minutes more, still alive. This time I had to move to get another shot and when I did, he jumped up and ran off. Managed another shot at about 90 yards as he ran full tilt through the lodgepoles. Nailed him again (all 3 shots into the same side though). Finally, he was too sick to go further and a full 35 minutes after the first shot, it took a 4th from 10 feet to put him down for the count. I was sick!
 
 Moral of the story? You're already getting a .50 cal + hole, why worry about significant expansion? Give me a pass through every time!!! I can't use sabots where I hunt, so don't know anything about them. I'd like to try the barnes ML bullets but will have to wait for a version that is legal in CO. I'll be a maxi-ball fan until I can find something that will out penetrate it. BTW, I've shot 2 bulls with maxi-balls and neither exited, but at least they made it through both lungs!

I have killed a lot of deer with my 50. cal CVA mountian rifle. But I have never used anything except 120 grs. of fffg and a patched round ball. I have recovered only one round ball, all the others made an exit. I keep the distance short, 30 to 100 yards. and try to put them behind the sholder. I have no experience with jacketed bullets,sabaots, or fake powders. btw - my target load is 70 grs. of fffg. in that rifle. I shoot tennis balls off of a pond at 40 yards with that load. If I hit them just right they launch into orbit.
 
 I do not try to modernize my black powder rifle performance. We don't have any advantages such as early seasons etc... so my reason for hunting with the muzzle loader is nostaligic, the challenge of getting closer, keeping my powder dry, And making meat to the smell of burning sulpher. Were I to get the chance to hunt Elk with it I might try a bullet shaped lead projectile just for the added weight and penetration. But I have yet to find round balls lacking in penertation on deer.

The bullets used by my friends used were from Hornady and I believe Nosler.
 
 I am leaning toward hard cast lead alloy bullets similar to what one would use in a hunting handgun. A good Keith style bullet at 450 to 500gr. should do the trick. Your idea that a .50 cal hole being enough is about the same as what I am thinking.
 
 We don�t have the luxury of high velocity so a heavy for caliber, tough bullet with a large flat meplat seems the best answer.

I've used everything from 180gr XTP's to 505gr Minnies.
 The 180gr XTP's were purposely used for safety in a
 populated area -- they didn't exit, but made a devestating
 wound to both lungs, using 150gr equivalents with Clear
 Shot and Clean Shot.
 
 This year, I tried the PR Dead Center 200gr Bullets. I've
 never rolled a deer before. These things are NASTY! And
 yes, they go clear through. Their url is www.prbullet.com

I will have to agree with PDS on the round balls. I have shot several deer with round balls and 90 gr. of Pyrodex Select in 50 cal. rifles. Ranges have been anywhere from 20 feet to 65 yards and all have gone on thru.
 
 Only shot one deer with saboted bullets. Was a TC PTX using 120 gr. Pyrodex Select at 160 yards out of a TC Black Diamond ER. This one went thru the close shoulder, heart and was in the upper leg on the far side.
 
 None of these deer required another shot to finish them off. Most of the ones shot with round balls only moved in one direction and that was down.
 
 Am now working on a load with the X-Tended Range Sabots from Cabela's (same as PR bullets). So far these things on paper are gonna be the cats meow.

I just came back from a deer hunting trip and I am proud to be able to report some info on what you asked.
 
 I shoot a Lyman trade rifle 50 cal flintlock using 80 gr FFg pushing a 333 grain T/C maxi' ball I hand cast from pure lead. It chrono's at 1600 FPS.
 
 I tipped over a 9 point white tail at a distance of 60 yards. He ran 60 yards and piled up. (I'll be posting a full story with pics on the big game board later...) I was in a tree stand 30 feet up. The buck was facing me. The bullet hit just between the right front shoulder and the spine and traveled 24 inches! by my rudimentary measurements. The bullet was found just shy of the right rear ham. It wieghed 317 grains and mushroomed nicely.

blammer - Bravo! I plan to give those maxihunters a try this weekend.
 
 Regards, sse

Muley, will your state allow CVA Powerbelts? They are a lead-to-bore bullet, but do have a plastic skirt. I'm working on a story now regarding my ML buck taken with one. That tale of yours is a nightmare story!
 
 I believe a single shot (behind the shoulder) with the CVA I put into my whitetail would have done an elk in good fashion. I have more experimenting to do.
 
 Jeff

Talus, yep they are allowed. I believe though, that they and the black belts are one in the same. That said, I had a buddy shoot a cow elk with the copper clad hollow point and it worked out fine for him (even though I tried to steer him away from them). I'd also imagine that the flat points would be fine too.
 
 Nightmare is right! Which is why I haven't tried the other black belts even though common sense says they should work fine. Of the two elk I've shot with maxiballs, one dropped on the shot and the other only went 80 yards.
 
 Live and learn!

MS, I'm talking about a slightly underbored lead bullet with a green skirt at the bottom. The skirt is about 3/16" and fits around the bottom of the bullet. It is held in place by a "nipple" cast into the bullet.
 
 I bought a pack a couple years ago. I understand they now come in something like 240 grains. I will try that size, as 295 is a bit much. I don't have a chrony, so no idea how fast she was going. The bullet retained 77% weight though, and was balled up under the hide after quite a lot of penetration. Again, I would prefer the faster 240.
 
 I'll be glad to experiment on elk/bear ASAP! I think the iron sights on this gun will keep me within lethal range. Sounds like you would have been better off with a bow in your prior story.
 
 I should be makin' smoke again when ML season comes into the Central NC zone on Nov. 9. Deer are in full rut here now, and I've got a couple honey-holes to take the boy to!
 
 Jeff

Talus. Those CVA belts are meant for the more precision bored muzzle loaders like the inlines. I just went through a learning curve with TC after my Hawkin bellied up and I had to get something for a deer season pretty quick. So I bought a TC Black Diamond that a local store had in and a fellow never picked up. It wouldn't shoot any of the cast bullest worth a plug nickel and TC advised these Power Belts (295) gr over 100 gr powder..Don't know how they would work in a regular front stuffer meant for cast bullets since they are not full diameter as std lead bullets
 I never got to plunk adeer , but I got one on my desk that went into dirt ( not a real test of expansion) and it is 1 1/4 inch in dia and mushroomed all the way back to the nub that holds the skirt on. In addition I have a targert with 3 shots at 100 yds that measures 1.3 inches done with iron sights

Talus, yep you described the black belts perfectly! Except the ones I used were heavier. I'm pretty sure they are one in the same. I'd just stay away from the hollow point lead ones if you go for elk.

Greetings.
 
 I have been using Speer Gold Dot 270 gr. 44 cal bullets w/ sabot in my Traditions 50 cal in line. To say I have been pleased with the performance of these bullets is an understatement.
 
 These Gold Dot's are HARD. In my opinon that hardness has gone a long way to ensure breaking bones and exiting. The velocity of the projectile also is going to be a factor if you want an exit.
 
 The best example I have was in Dec of 2000. I shot a yearling buck at 60 paces through the near shoulder. The bullet entered the near shoulder, went through the top of both lungs, breaking the off shoulder. There was a .44 cal hole on near side, and a slightly larger exit hole on the off side. The deer simply fell over and died.
 
 The load I was using at the time was 85 grains of Clean Shot, 50 cal Hornady sabot, and a 270 gr .44 cal Speer Gold Dot. Chronied the load. I don't remember the exact fps. but it was around 1340 to 1360 fps. This was a pretty accurate load for this rifle.
 
 My brother in law and a friend of his did not like the performance they saw with some of the Hornady bullets & sabots they used (purchased as in a pack). In my opinion the bullets were too soft. They expanded, but didn't give much penetration. One buck required 3 or 4 follow up shots.
 
 My experience with the Gold Dot's left me with the impression that the bullet was just starting to expand as it was exiting the off shoulder.
 
 What I've learned from my own experience and that of others is that you should use a good quality projectile that will not expand too quickly. As someone said above, you are already starting with a 50 cal hole (or in my case a .44 cal hole).
 
 Good shooting.
 
 gundog

I have shot 7 whitetails and 5 hogs with the .50 round ball. All were lung shots, and all balls exited. None of these animals ran over 50 yards. Longest shot was 70 yards.I have been amazed at the performance of the round ball.

Can't believe no ones shooting Barnes saboted bullets. After having trouble with jacketed bullets coming apart I switched to the Barnes. Shot a 140 lb buck in the shoulder. Dropped him in his tracks, turned both shoulders into jelly, and left a huge exit hole.

LSU fan, I just switched over to the 250 grain Barnes bullets this year. Only got to shoot one deer so far. Shot a spike buck at about 40 yards. Bullet entered right behind left shoulder, both lungs were totally devastated, exited center of ribcage on right side. 50 cal. entry hole...large exit hole with about a 2 inch piece of rib missing. I have been totally satisfied with the accuracy and on game performance so far. Shooting 100 gr. of Clean Shot through a Knight Wolverine.

I use a .45 . First bullets I used were the knight 155 grain with 155 grains in pellets. Barnes makes the knight bullet.Anyway I shot a smallish doe at close range on a steep downhill angle dropping her in her tracks. Shot went through the spine and the perfectly expanded bullet was recovered just under the hide on the off side. I was extremely disappointed that the bullet did not exit at such close range under a full charge. Expanded bullet measured .80 . I now shoot the barnes 195 grain bullets which is the same as the knight only 40 grains heavier. I have shot 11 deer since then including a couple briusers from ten yards to a couple well over 150 yards and not recovered a bullet yet . I think the .45 barnes is better than the .50 barnes as it has a much more moderate hollow point compared to it's caliber size than the .50's I saw which looked like they'd expand to the size of a pie plate. I've taken a few deer wityh PR QT spitzers .40 cal. and 250 grains. These really blow through the deer as well. I think if you really want penetration you want a .45 shooting 450+ conicals. Ironic that alot of states won't allow it for elk when it's probally the best elk round out there muzzleloading wise.

OK Guys! Here's three posts on muzzleloaders using Barnes bullets. I've done a little research and for those of us shooting 'modern' muzzleloaders it's sure looking like the Barnes bullets are the way to go. Can we hear from other muzzleloaders using the Barnes bullets? Thanks!

LSU - it ain't that no one's shooting the MZ....

I've found the Barnes in 300gr to be the most accurate load I've tried in my Wolverine yet....but I have yet to fire one at any live game. Not that I didn't see any close up this season. I had a few chancees at elk under 100yds, but I was just too slow to get a clean shot off.

So obviously, I can only attest to accuracy (sub - 1" groups at 100yds w/scope). I can only assume they will perform well, based on my success with the X in .300winmag and .308win.

Maybe next year I can offer more complete info... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-FreeMe

I'm a beginner in the M.L. scene. But I would like to share my little experience. I'm shooting a Black Diamond XR with 150 gr Pyrodex pellets and 209 primers. I experimented at the range with serval 240 -250 gr sabots. Accuracy on the Swift A-Frame and Barnes were both under 1" at 100 yards, but the A-Frame excelled at 200 yards. This would be my deer load!
Shot two does. First doe (120 lbs)was broadside at 100 yds, went in behind the sholder and shredded both lungs before exiting. She ran about 75 yards before going down. Left a good blood trail.
Second doe (180 lbs) was 75 yds bedded down quartering me with her head looking back behind her. I was slightly above her looking at her left side. Bullet entered on the top right side of her neck , going thru the length of her neck, exited the bottom of her neck on her left side, entered her left shoulder, through one lung and the liver, found the bullet under the skin on her right side at the diaphram area. Did not weigh the bullet but the nose was gone, just the jacketed part left. Her neck and left shoulder were jelly.
Needless to say as a beginner I was extremely pleased with the accuracy and penetration this combination gave me!

Free Me,

I know how you feel. I've been shooting the Barnes for about 3 years now and that buck is the only one thats wandered into range during muzzeloader season. Maybe next year I'll get one with it.

Free me, what kind of load are you shooting with the 300 gr. Barnes? Just curious because I have been shooting the 250's and was going to give the 300's a try. I have been shooting 100 gr. of Clean Shot and no. 11 caps. I am happy with them, but trying the 300's will give me another reason to shoot. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bukfevr - since last summer, I've been using 90gr of 777 fffg and CCI #11 magnums. I'm also now using the newer 300gr MZs with the package clearly marked "new high pressure sabots, easier loading" - or something like that. The original ones were a bear to load, and not as accurate.

-FreeMe

Freeme, Know what you mean about hard to load. The first ones I bought were in the Knight package. I shot 3 and said so much for these. They shot great, but it was all you could do to load them. I emailed Barnes and they said make sure to get the new ones, the ones with that sticker about new sabots, easier loading. They are MUCH easier to load than the first ones.

I was shooting a 303gr Remington core-lokt sabot bullet with 2 50gr pellets of pyrodex in my Knight DISC rifle when I shot my first bull elk in 2000. The shot was broadside at 60 yards and was a complete pass through. In 2001 I shot a bull that was quartering towards me with the same Remington bullet and I'm pretty certain the bullet nuked on his shoulder because I never found him and the shot was only 35 yards! Two days later I came face to face with another bull and as he turned to run away I shot him. He ran about 50 yards and stopped. I knew he was hit hard but I shot him again behind the shoulder and he went down right there.
Last year I went to a 435gr lead sabot bullet, again with two 50-50's.Last year's bull was about 75-80 yards away broadside and slightly uphill. The shot was high in the chest and caught the first lung, went through his spine and out the other side. Needless to say he dropped on the spot.
I have used lead sabot bullets on whitetails here in Indiana for years with devastating results. The bullet deformation really causes tissue damage yet they still penetrate. I think the jacketed bullets expand too perfectly and do little tissue damage.
Whatever the bullet you use, I think anything larger than deer should only be shot broadside or slightly quartering away. I try to keep my shots under 100 yards also. Good luck!

I'm new to MLing and don't know jack. I'm thinking that a .50 cal lead projectile is going to expand pretty fast. Energy/frontal area ratio of the slug is going to determine penetration, other things being equal. Since the slug was .5 to begin with, expansion is rapidly eating up energy, even with lots pf powder. The slug is just huge. Seeing that .50 is plenty of diameter to start with, I would look for something with less expansion and more speed for bigger critters -- like a jacketed or copper saboted load. I'll be testing these next go 'round. Meanwhile, I don't see any way to go wrong with a whitetail within 100 yards with anything remotely reasonable.

Again regarding Muley Stalker -- I bet you thought "%#&&*^! Any decent archery shot would have penetrated more than this!" Didn't you? I'm reminded of what appears to be a photo of a pass-through arrow shot on Greenhorn's FAT bull last season...

Encountering nothing but ribs, I would be dissappointed if my whitetail archery rig did not pass through.

Fearless,

I think you are on the right track using the 195g Barnes over the 150g Knight. The BC on the 150g is pretty bad so even though the 150g is started much faster, the 195g will shoot flatter at 200yds. Flatter and much higher retained energy.....hard not to like!

My 45 cal. muzzleloader is made by Millenium Designed Muzzleloaders and it's called a Buckwacka. It's made from stainless and breaks open like a single shot shotgun. Only gripe I have with it is it's heavier than I prefer. One of the reasons I chose the Buckwacka is the mfg. states it's safe to use 200g of blackpowder when shooting bullet weights less than 220g. 150g of blackpowder is the max for bullet weights of 220g or more.

Since I would be getting more velocity using 200g of powder, I wanted to pick a bullet that wouldn't come apart. The 195g Barnes seemed perfect......figured it had a better chance than a jacketed or lead bullet of staying together and copper bullets have higher BCs than lead bullets (comparing equal weight). I had little time to tune a load before hunting season but 200g of pyrodex pellets shot acceptably.

My first (and only so far) chance was at a small buck. I was sitting in a tree stand when he crossed a small creek and walked a trail straight toward me. Since his head was down I aimed at the spine at the base of the neck. The shot was at 20yds and angled down. The first thing the bullet hit was the spine. It penetrated the spine, penetrated the length of the chest, exited the bottom of the chest at the diaphragm, and lodged in the knee (for lack of a better term) of the right, rear leg. When I walked up to the deer the base of the bullet was shining through the skin.

That is pretty tough conditions.......high velocity, close shot, strike bone on impact. It still penetrated through two feet of deer. Here is a picture of the recovered bullet:

[Linked Image]

I'm not sure you can put much trust in one incident but I am satisfied with the 195g Barnes performance.

HogWild

Hog wild that is impressive performance of your bullet there.
I wish you would do an experiment with your rifle, to see how much powder it is burning. If you could lay some sheets out in front of it, I bet some big chunks of unburned powder are flying out the muzzle.
I have it on pretty good authority that you aren't going to burn more than 130 grains of powder in a .50
I believe that less than that would burn in a .45
Or you could check it with a chronograph.

Simon,

I certainly will be checking my velocity with a chronograph. I'll let you know what I find out.

HogWild