A relative of mine was in a spot. He needed cash, and put a Hawken up for sale. The price was right, so I snagged it.

The Hawken is a 50 cal no-name with a stainless barrel. His son had shot it and put it away dirty. After I got it home, and got into it, I found out the true depth of the trouble-- lots of rust, lots of grime and corruption.

After three days, a lot of Ed's Red, PB Blaster and Eez-ox, I had the barrel pretty well cleaned out. I got brake cleaner and a safety pin into the nipple and got things pretty well cleaned out there. I busted a couple of caps, and smoke came out the end of the barrel. I figure it's ready to shoot.

I think there is a permanent bit of pitting where the crud ring formed, but the patches are sliding through much better. I finally pulled a clean patch through it last night. After that, I polished it up with Flitz and then cleaned it back up until I got another clean patch.

The nipple is frozen-- won't budge. The barrel has "Made in Italy" on it, and that's it. I figure I should be able to shoot it until the nipple goes and then turn it over to a 'smith and let him figure out a way to replace it with a standard nipple

Help me out. What next?

Pictures to follow.

get the nipple out and clean that up . if its that rusted into place , you have no idea how much of the threads are left. Take a good look at where the nipple is most likely to go if it lets go .
add into that if you can push a safty pin through the nipple , its already shot out . Which means that when you fire the gun with a load , you will be subjecting the hammer to undo pressure . Which in turn effects the tumbler as well as the main spring .
Take a tooth pick and plug the nipple .then take you some penetrating fluid . And squirt around the nipple . Then put enough down the bore so as to fill the bolster . Let her set for a day or so and try to remove the nipple again. Once you get it out , you then can finish cleaning the rifle up by cleaning out the flash channel . Then re thread the bolster to the next sized nipple

Hmmm. That sound ugly. I'll probably turn it over to a 'smith then. I hadn't thought about the nipple coming loose.

Thanks.

WOW if thats SS and has made in italy on it, its a lyman and it runs around $600 new.

Have you tried heating it up a little?

make sure its unloaded before trying heat.

I'm pretty sure it was unloaded before I worked on it. By now, all the brake cleaner, PB Blaster, Ed's Red would have neutralized the charge. I can pour liquid in the end of the barrel and comes running out the nipple.

Heat. There's an interesting idea. I've heard you can heat it with a candle and put candle wax around the margin of the nipple and it will eventually work itself in. I figured if two days of PB Blaster didn't touch it, nothing would.

If you have a method for getting this nipple out, I'd be glad to hear it.

So y'all think this might be a Lyman? I should be able to get the nipple replaced pretty easy then, huh?

just use a propane torch and heat the bolster/nipple. It doesnt take much heat and then you just apply pressure with the nipple tool. Should pop right loose.

Sounds to me like the lyman deer stalker? in stainless steel.

Shaman, About 15 years ago I was fortunate enough to become the owner of a WILLIAM READ & SON 10GA DOUBLE BARREL percussion shotgun. A very large and heavy gun. The gun had not been used in probably 60+ years and had been wiped down EVERYWHERE with nearly full strength linseed oil and it was BLACK, metal & wood were BLACK with no checkering visible and the gun was loaded. After standing the barrel set on end with the muzzle up, I soaked it it for a week with PB Blaster and carefully unloaded it. I then took a tooth brush and some very thin linseed oil and very carefully dissolved the existing caked on linseed oil and dirt and found that I had a absolutely beautiful gun with checkering that looked like it was cut yesterday and metal with a wonderful brown patina. It turns out that the thick linseed oil that had been applied for so many years had actually preserved the gun. I had to make a new tapered ramrod and like your gun the nipples were seized. I thought about the nipples a few days and decided I'd try it on my own so I took a drill bit just larger than the hole at the top of the nipple and drilled through the nipple. Being careful to keep the angle correct I then used the next larger drill bit and did the same and then the next larger, and so on until I could see that I was almost into the threads. At that point the nipples popped off and I used a ice pick to remove the nipple metal that was left in the breech threads. The thread size is 1/4-28 and I have to use tall nipples. I now have a gun that could be 150+ years old and functions perfectly. I hunt deer, turkey, and dove with it and it's so beautiful that everyone that sees it wants to buy it.
I'll never sell it!!

Thanks for putting up with a long story but here's my point.
You could probably drill out your nipple as I did and save some time and money.

Good luck,
Mike

Thanks all. I guess I'll try and give it a bit of heat with the torch and see what happens. I'll call my ex-wife over to hold the end of the barrel, just in case it's loaded.

I'm going to go dark now for . . . well, it may be 48 hours or more. I'm heading to deer camp to check out what the drought's wrought. I'll be back here in a few.

Thanks again for all your help.

never bet your life that you have neutralized black powder .
Its either completely removed or its not .

Okay. I put an extra knot in the string and got the rust off the tin can. I'm back online.

Captchee, I completely agree. I guess the next question would be the best way to make that determination.

To date, I have kept Ed's Red in the barrel overnight, removed and replaced with PB Blaster. I have sent a ramrod down and it goes in about to the line of the nipple. I have removed the screw that is on the other side of the barrel and can send brake cleaner down the barrel and have it flow freely out that hole and the nipple. Lastly, I have touched off two caps, and a wisp of smoke comes out the barrel each time.

BTW: here's the picture that was sent to me:

i sure think its clear of powder .
I can tell you for a fact that oils will not neutralize powder . I once thought it would and would often soak original barrels with loads , in a barrel of oil for weeks before drilling out the load .. Then one day I had a set of SXS barrels go off while trying to remove a set of very stubborn breech plugs . I had even set a torch to the nipple seats and nothing happened .
However in the process of heating and then turning one plug, a amount of powder went off .which was enough to set off the other barrel who�s plug was also hot .
The only thing the two of us could come up with was that the old powder had been incrusted to the point that the oil only raised the ignition temperature of the outer shell of powder . When the plug moved , that crust was broke . Thus exposing a small amount of powder thus setting the rest off . The recoil then caused the second barrel to do the same ..
As a note to this . I also have witnessed charges that were blown with Co2 discharges having enough powder left in the barrel to be set of both by popping a cap and once even in a flintlock which fired with authority while flashing a pan right after being blow out with Co2 .
Im not saying either will happen in your case . All im saying is that if your applying heat to the nipple , be very careful. Keep the barrel pointed in a safe direction tell you 100% certain

As I mentioned earlier, I thought about calling up my ex-wife, Satan, and have her come over to hold the barrel while I heat it. She's a big, sturdy woman. I'm sure she could give it the firm grip it'll need.

You heard about Satan, din't you? She took me to court a few years ago looking for gobs of money. One of her excuses was that I'd called her "Satan" on the 24hrcf. The judge told her that she could sue for libel if she wanted, but that was not going to be discussed any further during the pending proceeding. Right after the hearing, I registered myexissatan.com. You want T-shirts, coffee mugs, you name it? I got it.

But I digress. So what IS the best way to make sure all the powder is deactivated? I know with primers, you can dowse them in WD-40 and they're inactive until the stuff dries.

Update: I got back from deer camp yesterday afternoon and grabbed the propane torch and some wax and went to work on the nipple.

I had partial success; I got a quarter turn out of the nipple, but the nipple suddenly froze, and the pliers kept going and. . .

a certain guardian angel is stepping in to help. More news as the situation develops.

Stay tuned.

I dunno about bein' much of an "Angel", Old Timer,......

Brown Truck rolled through this AM,......I unpacked your barrel a while ago, .......

figured you'd be glad to see this



Took longer to drag out the TIG apparatus and get it running than the actual welding (used 309 Filler Rod) . As pretty much anticipated,..... a piece of cake, and the threads are in PERFECT shape. The counter opposed / cross drilled "Clean Out" screw in the breech plug threads out quite handily, too.



Once again, the power of skill , science, and technology triumph over the forces of darkness and evil.

GTC

Hoop-De-Dooo! I'm doing my happy dance and leaving puddles!

Before you put it back in the wrapping, I would love to know what your recommendation for a new nipple would be. Is this really a Lyman rifle?

Many, Many Many thanks.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke,

I am going to my cargo shrine right now, wearing my steel pot helmet and sacrificing the straw effigy of a jeep in your honor.

EDIT: KYHillChick came out on the porch to see why I was so happy. I said that someone had welded a rod to my nipple to get a better grip with the vice-grips. She grabbed her breasts and shrieked and ran back in the house. I can't get her to open the door. Help.

Golly, when viewed in actual context, I don't blame her. Hope she doesn't call the PD and get you tazed, or worse. Use your RATTLE, man,.....

It's appropriate that we seek some help from the more seasoned ML types here,.....regarding said nipple, and it's recess (no, I am not talking about our lips or mouths, either) .

I measured 3 more or less 'Standard' ....."1/4-28TPI for #11 Cap" here. Their cylindrical dias., where they land are:
* .280"
* .275"
* .278"
....the one pulled from your Italian Barrel is .314"

That said, the nipple pulled from the Italian Barrel is the CLOSEST to an actual "1/4-28 TPI" of the bunch with a robust and TIGHT .245" dia , measured at the crest of the threads.

The ones I have here (3 ea.) are kinda puny at .230-.235" measured in the same mode. They come up LOOSE in the Italian Barrel's bolster,....looser that I'd run, anyway. Than, obviously, there's the disparity in the "seating Flange" diameter.

Comments / Advice, solicited.

....and THANKS in advance, for same.

GTC

I'm wondering if that Lyman uses a M6 x .75 nipple.? I think my old Lyman did...

I do believe you're on to something there, DW,....

Hey, thanks, I'll find a bolt in that pitch and give it a whirl.

Greg

Dang nice work Crossfire. It looks like Trackofthewolf.com agrees with you on threads. Here is the link

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/807/1

Y'all mean this one?

HOT-SHOT-RLP
Nipple, Hot Shot� for Lyman & InvestArms, 6-.75mm thread, for #11 CCI or Remington cap, stainless steel.

I'm going to verify that thread pitch,and leave the almost mind boggling (certainly intimidating) choice of nipple to you, Bud. I WOULD be dogone sure that .314" OD at the seating flange (That's 7.975 MM, e.g. a nominal 8 mm) is part of the program.

GTC

I gots a couple guns from the 1870s-1880s era that Tracks had nipples for. This oughta be easy to sort our.

Or we can just talk about nipples.

Wrong kind I fear.

I ain't dead yet but that pic makes me want to blow grits until I do expire........

Yep.

DD, only you can save this thread......with proper pics of course......don't disappoint.

He's probably out feeding "Bob" a dead crat.

....I'll do my best,....Shaman's barrel is back in his capable hands, and he commented that the threads in the breech plug / bolster look "pristine".

ANY of ya'll hit this snag,....send the thing over, or seek out your local TIG whiz, and show him this thread,.....or have him call me.

Mutilated, pharged up nipples (like those in the last pic )look to be the SINGLE biggest problem with these sidelock percussion rigs.

Best grade STAINLESS rated "Never Sieze",....and FREQUENT removal, cleaning,......THAT's the ticket, my friends.

Best Regards,

Greg

thats the real ticket . does away with so many problems
i bet you will find the nipple is a metric .
probably a 6.75 like deerwacker sugested .
while a 1/4 28 will thread into it , it would probably wabble tell it hits the nipple seat

the other thing is that it could have been re threaded
which means there is a number of both metric and standard threads to chose from . common pitch is 28 but there are some like on the Hopkins and Allen rifles that use a 32 or some of the TC's that use a 24 .
but you can get over sized nipples ranging from .250 all the way to ?? off the top of my head , .280, .285 or somewhere there abouts
ToW has a broad choice i belive

with imports there is also a few diffrent metrics depending on the company and model of gun .
so metrics can range from 6-.1mm, 6-.75mm to 8-1.25

if this gun is a Lyman or investment arms . i would start with trying a 6.75 . if its a Berdan or something along that line , then its more likly to be the 6.1mm.

well done on getting the nipple out Crossfire .

Just around the corner:



Someday I'll know 10% of what Cap knows about old guns...if I live long enough. Mebbe I can accelerate that if I buy a bunch. Speaking of imponderables, I have an 1876 Reinhard picket rifle with a 33" twist. More or less .38 in the bore and .40 in the grooves. That's an approximation 'cause it's too early in the day to do math. The grooves are .018" deep.

Seems like a tall order for patching a conical, filling the grooves with patch material and all that. I have not been successful to date. Well, I have, but the bullets tumble. -gnashing of teeth- It shoots RBs quite well, but....

Slugged RB:



Bore:



Target:



[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Black%20Powder/PAReinhardPicketRifle004.jpg[/img]

-sigh-

I'm back. The barrel's back. I'm leaving puddles like a poodle--I'm so happy.

I ordered the Lyman nipple from Track of the Wolf late yesterday along with some .50 cal possibles. I'm hoping that by weekend-after-next it'll be ready to shoot.

Would you expect this to be a better round ball or minie ball rifle? I was hoping to lob the larger .50 Lee R.E.A.L cast bullet at deer. I have both the small and the large molds. I'm just wondering if I need a .50 round ball mold.

Your barrel twist will answer that for you. My guess is it's probably twisted for round balls, but anything around 48" or quicker will handle the likes of a Maxiball etc. Either way it will take care of a deer easy.

Check the twist and cast or slug the bore. No magic in doing either.

dont be fooled by the twist . try the R.E.A.L and see how they shoot .
if they dont shoot well , try a hollow based Minie with a thick skirt .
i shoot 435 grain Barnard minie in my 1 in 70 twist flintlock . not as accurate as a RB but shoots them more then accurate enough for hunting

Cap....you've no idea the possibilities just opened behind that door. Smilin' here.

LOL
.
My wife bought the rifle for my on our 1st wedding anniversary .
I think I have told that story before .
When we went and picked up the gun , the owner gave me a box of Minie�s with it .
Ill admit I was skeptical when he said he used them in the slow twist barrel .

Shortly there after I was down at Shapels .and was talking with Mr Shapel about the rifle and how it shot a Minie in a slow twist . Man I miss Bob and Mark .
But anyway . Mr Shapel goes into to telling me that the problem with shooting conical wasn�t the rate of twist , but the bullet design and its reaction to the depth of the rifling for a given charge . After all the original Minie was designed to be shot at a very slow rate of twist with a moderate powder charge .
So with a solid base design , you don�t get the expansion to seal the bore proper with deep rifling . The original Minie had a thin skirt which also complicated things because the skit would tear with heavy charges in deep rifling or skip the rifling if the twist was to fast .
Thus came about the Barnard design ..
Bob had this rather large bullet collection and thus showed me all these different adaptations from 2 part bullets to expansion cones ��..
Anyway . Another long story .

But in my 54 cal , 42 inch , 1 in 70 twist with radius rifling that bullet will hold the same group out to 50 yards as a patched RB does . At 100 the group opens up . But its still well below a paper plate size group at 100 ..About 6-8 inchs when shot off hand
Granted it does not shoot well enough to be a long range setup .
However on average for elk , im shooting in the 35 yard range . So that 435 grain conical backed with 110 grains of powder works wonderfully .

Let me also say this . When it comes to muzzle loading I have always subscribed to accepting the limitations of the system . Those limitations very from gun to gun , load to load and shooter to shooter , each one and combination there of , has its accurate range .
If we accept that and stay within that range , we are good to go .
Where we run into problems is when we try and shoot past that range . Expecting something different to happen

The Minie idea appeals, but you shorted out my circuits with mention of two piece bullets. In context of a Minie bullet?

I follow the Minie theory re: slow twist/mild loads but can find no images or sketch of what the Barnhard bullet looks like. Can you provide a description or picture?

two piece bullets have a front section and a base section .that fits together then you load it as one bullet .
here is a photo from the NMLRA
[img]http://www.muzzleblasts.com/archives/vol1no3/articles/stutz_4.shtml[/img]
also it wasnt the Minie that looked like this . my comment about 2 piece was concerning Shapels bullet colection which included 2 piece designs .
however it should be noted that the Minie did have a metal cup that was inside it . where the ones we buy or make today , dont .

I believe its spelled Bernard
Lyman sells a mould that�s close to it for the 54 cal . BUT its skirt is still to thin . So what I did was turn the skirt plug down alittle so as to give a thicker skirt . When I did this it produced 439 grain from the the 425 grain Lyman mould . The original Bernards i recieved from Shapel were 435 grain . so the Lyman mould cam in real close with minor modification
Here is a photo showing the difference
On the left is a 54 cal old style Minie design 445 grain .
On the right is the Bernard which Kinda looks like a Gardner but not a round at the tip or a thick in the skirt
Notice the difference in length .
But when we flip the round over , you really see the difference in the skirts .
Now don�t quote me on this part because I don�t know for sure . But from what I have been told is that the Bernard design was originally for what I think was called a pedestal breech or post breech .
How this was described to me was that there was a post that stuck up off the breech plug . A fixed amount of powder was then loaded and the conical was then ran home .
The post fit inside the conical cavity when the bullet was seated the post acted to expanded the base of the conical into the rifling
I want to say that it was called the 'Tige' rifle
But anyway as you can see the cavity is much smaller thus giving a thicker skirt . Where with deeper rifling , you can see that the original Minie design wouldn�t leave much of a skirt left to seal to the rifling .

i barrowed this photo and post from an old thread of Greg Edingtons over on the Civil war guns forum dated back in 2007.
to show you what the gardner round looked like

Appreciate the info on all. My earlier comments about twist related to "modern" bullets, never gave a thought to Minies.

I do like the form on the Barnard Minie and think it has some potential with a bit of massage.

Two piece bullets for slug rifles, I understood that but was not clear about the context intended.

800 grains, two piece, bore rider nose section, .50 caliber


For this gun:





Thanks again,

Dan

So I have Moose, 'Sota, and Mooselette over today for a visit. While I'm cruising past the front hall table, I see an envelope from Track of the Wolf and know immediately what's in it. I go down to the man cave and start working. Problem: I left the pliers require for pulling the front wedge on my table in the dining room.

As I'm going back down the stairs, I run into my daughter in law.

"Whatcha up to? "

"I messin' with my nipple. " I replied, holding up the pliers.


Dang! There I go again!!!


However, good news: the nipples in, and you can bust a cap on it!

[video:youtube]IGvqBy7MCtc[/video]

Well, I had the smokepole out to deer camp over the weekend. I had both the 250 grain and 320 grain Lee R.E.A.L. bullets, Triple Seven and #11 caps. I was just checking function, and not really trying for a group.

Both the 250 and 320 grain bullets seemed to go in the direction I meant to be shooting. That is, when fired in the direction of the pond, 100 yards out, I could make a splash and scare fish. In fact both bullets tended to splash pretty close to where I was aiming the barrel. That is always really good sign.

I started working up from 70 grains. I stopped at 90 grains with the .320 grainers-- that's usually enough to flatten a deer.

All in all, I'd say I have the makings of a deer rifle. Next time out, I'll try and pick up some new Triple 7 and some caps and get this puppy stretched out.

Thanks all for your help!

Triple 7 with #11 caps?

Yes. Is there a problem?

Well for one, you're using a Hawkins style rifle which causes the ignition source to be less efficient (IMO) in having to turn a corner on it's way to the powder and it is claimed that 777 is difficult to ignite. And as I have heard for years, you are not supposed to use anything but 209 primers with 777. Quote below from Hodgdon's own site:



From here:
http://www.hodgdon.com/ml-warning.html

PS
This thread was very difficult to make it to the second page. Some of the comments had me rolling in laughter and even the occasional need for a Windex wipe on the monitor screen!

Something about a neighbor overhearing a few words, nipples and myexissatan.com to mention a few... This thread is better than any of the jokes in the Humor forum! Thanks!

Well, now you have me scratching my head. Err. . . hold on a sec. . . GOTCHA! Dang! the dogs keep bringing in ticks.

Reading that warning, I interpreted it to mean that Triple 7 pellets and pyrodex pellets were not to be used in anything but new inlines.

Having said that, I see enough reason to doubt my reading of the warning that I should probably contact the manufacturer for clarification. You have my word that I will take this seriously and pursue it, for both my own safety and the common good.

The fact of the matter is that I have been using Triple 7 since it came out in my Hawken, and I never once saw a warning. I have had very good results as well.

I just got off the phone with Ron at Hodgdon customer service.

The concern with T7 and caplocks only extends to the pellets. Triple 7 loose powder, when used with a good #11 cap is not a problem. Ron said I might want to use RWS caps to make for good ignition. However, he said my CCI and Remington caps were okay as long as I wasn't having trouble with ignition.

Judging from what Ron said, the warning is worded a little awkwardly.



should read something like this:



As long as you have loose powder working its way back to where it can be ignited by the cap, there should be no problem.

That's good to know. Thanks for researching and making the call. I just may try the 777 powder in my MK85

When I was just shooting (not hunting) with my smokepoles, I used black powder pretty much exclusively. However, when I started seriously hunting deer, I switched.

1) Pyrodex and later T7 were a bit more reliable
2) T7 keeps. I went 4 years during my unemployment not buying powder. I had 2 lbs that lasted me all that time, with both myself and #2 son shooting.
3) I love BP, but when you have a 2 day season for primitive weapons, it's nice to be able to not worry about cleaning the barrel until after the hunt. When my dad died last year, right after season, I was 3 weeks before I could get to the guns and get them cleaned. No problem.
4) As far as authenticity and all that, I figure the old guys would have used T7 if they had it. Frankly, my big sell-out was when I gave up on the moccasins and leather and switched to modern attire.

. . . but remember, this is loose T7 not pellets!

HMMMMM ? see i both shoot and hunt and i wouldn�t use anything but true black powder ..
i do use Pyro in my old Damascus SXS but that�s it .
I have tried T 7 , shockies and many of the others brands but I allways come back to true BP

Shaman....in a quiet, darkened room with a single candle before you, repeat this softly 100 times.

"Lord Black is king. All others are imposters beset by demons and chemical sophistry. There are good reasons skilled woodsmen, long range shooters and other wise old men go afield only with the holy Lord Black."

On a lighter note, a neighbor ruined the barrel of his new T/C inline using T7 by relying on the idea he could delay cleaning. Don't drink that Kool-Aid.....he got away with it once, but not twice.

T7 will definitely wreck a bore. Been there, done that.

Interestingly, the reasons that Shaman listed are the reasons I went back to real BP. It's easier to ignite, especially in a sidelock, and it doesn't go bad (provided you leave it in a dry place). It smells better, too. You do have the best luck if you clean the fouling off the gun right away, though. the sooner the better

I am back from a productive weekend at deer camp. I managed to get my TC Hawken .54 wrung out, no problem. I decided it was shooting so well with the R.E.A.L. bullets that it was not worth experimenting with the round ball barrel. I'll save that project for after deer season. I now have it shooting with the Green Mountain 1in28 barrel like laser.

The one problem was the new resurrected Lyman. I was in the process of getting it on the mark with .50 CAL R.E.A.L when the T7 crud ring demon reached out and grabbed my jag. I had been spit patching between shots, but the combination of crud ring and the minty fresh rifling caused the jag to snag. Pulling hard on my manged to separate the threads from the rest of the jag. I responded with removing the nipple, putting a little powder down the hole and then reinserting the nipple and firing. No prob. I'm down a jag, but I got everything cleaned out and resumed firing.

Two shots later, I had the same thing happen only this time the ferule on the cleaning rod separated from the aluminum shaft. I tried to repeat my trick. The patch came out, but the jag and ferrule were no where to be found. They were still stuck in the barrel-- never saw that one before. The patch blew out but left the jab stuck hard. Of course I had to use the rod to find the jag, and in doing so, I got the whole rod stuck down the barrel. I tried the trick again of loading powder through the touch hole, but to no avail. I got a sizzle and a little foomph! , but the rod remained. I put some penetrating oil down the barrel and boxed it up and came home.

Suggestions will be eagerly welcomed.

So what does one do when their ramrod is stuck? I'm looking for ideas. I tried brake cleaner and then vegetable oil last night. NoGo.

You would have thought that by now at least someone would have come by and said "Sucks to be you, shaman. I ain't never seen that happen."

Did I really do something THAT wrong? Have I been shunned by the community? Am I doomed to wander the wasteland friendless and alone with the ramrod sticking out of my barrel as a mark of shame?

Wait! I know it's all a gag, right. Any minute you're going to jump out and yell "Surprise!!!" Okay, I can dig it.

Cant say I have ever had a patch blow off and leave the jag stuck in the bore ????
that�s a new one . I could see how that could happen though .If the barrel was really fouled and you were having to force the cleaning jag and patch down then it would tear in the same manor as forcing a to tight ball .

Having the Jag and RR tip come off . That that�s one of the reasons I pin all my tips

Your RR , tip and jag all should be well under bore size �IF� your using the correct size for your bore . So without the patch they will simply fall out . So it�s a good thing the patch blew off .

So now you are going to have to dissolve the fouling from the synthetic powder that�s locked everything down there . Once you do that , then your jag , tip and RR will drop back out .

Its to bad you had to learn this the hard way .
This type of fouling is why I do not use synthetics . I don�t care what the manufactures say . I have yet to find one that was less corrosive or whos fouling build up wasn�t either worse then True Black powder or much harder to clean up .
Given that I have not tried BH209 . But since I don�t have anything that uses a 209 primer other then my cartridge guns and with BH209 being way more expensive then Pyro , I probably never will try it

Ah! At last, someone throws me a line. I feel redeemed.

Okay, what does one do to dissolve fouling of this nature? I'm thinking of the old Simple Green/Peroxide/oil soap mix I used in my BP days. If that does not work, maybe . . . I dunno, how about dilute Hydrochloric Acid? It shouldn't eat at the brass and stainless all that much, but it would combine nicely with the crud.

You haven't been shunned by all, I'm simply at a loss and am waiting to see what the real wizards have to offer.

Ed

I wouldn�t use Hydrochloric acid .
Might try a good solvent . Maybe simply green . Rems ��.
Past that would not know .
I tried T7 when it first came out . Once I experienced the first clean up , I called BS to the manufacture claims and went back to BP .
I wont even shoot T7 in the guns I use Pyrodex in

Pull the barrel, and soak with the breech end down in a bottle/can of soapy water first would be my approach. It should not take long. If that fails drain the water, plug the nipple and fill the barrel with Hoppes. Soak...pull, slip back in a dark room and repeat....1,000 times...

"Lord Black is king. All others are imposters beset by demons and chemical sophistry. There are good reasons skilled woodsmen, long range shooters and other wise old men go afield only with the holy Lord Black."

As an aside, and apologetically not germane to the discussion- I couldn't help myself when I stumbled onto this pic- while living in Burkittsville, MD, at the foot of South Mountain, I found some unusual mini� balls whilst metal detecting- a handful of .58 Gardner bullets scattered out across the field. Some time later I was allowed to metal detect along the old stone fence at the foot of the mountain (below Crampton's Gap- a part of the Battle of South Mountain) I found a small pile of the same bullets, unfired, about 6-8" down in the ground. That spot was directly in line with where I found the fired Gardners out in the field. I like to think that a Virginia boy was positioned there along that wall and got off a bunch of shots at the Yanks as they assaulted his position. His abrupt retreat back up the hill probably caused him to leave behind his stash of cartridges. Elsewhere along that same wall, friends had found similar stashes of unfired .577 Enfield bullets. Those earlier finds of .577's led us to assume that the Virginia regiment positioned there were armed with Enfields. Evidently at least one of them carried a Springfield, and had been issued Gardner cartridges that day.

(I lived on an adjacent farm, and found buttons, bullets, and a U.S. belt plate. Said farm was a staging area for Union troops assaulting the mountain gap.)

Gardner bullets/cartridges were a great idea, but in practice not so hot. The big complaint from guys in the field was that the naked greased bullets picked up all manner of flotsam when carried in pockets, haversacks, and cartridge boxes. Anybody who has ever dropped a greased .22 round in the dirt will know what I'm talking about.

Well, I tried 2 hours of boiling with Dawn and Simple Green to no avail. It's still stuck as tight as ever. Next stop: Hoppes.

Question: I have 3X 1 lb cans of GOEX, purchased in 1988 that has been stored in a 30-cal ammo can. I probably have not opened it up in this century. Is it still good, or is it petunia food?

Good as the day it was packed,....run it.

"Subsitutes" SUCK

You'd better watch that talk, somebody from Hodgdon may hop a flight out to Texas and kick your butt!

Just so y'all know. I had a pair of suede crocs that I picked up on sale from Bass Pro. I used to wear them down here at Deer Camp with white tube socks early in the morning. I'd sit at the Thoughtful Spot and drink coffee until I was properly awake and motivated, and then go in and change into proper work clothes and get Girlfriend up to make breakfast. However, I never had my picture taken in them and they went into the burn barrel after about 8 years of service. If I had been photographed in them, I sure as hell would have taken it off Facebook before y'all could have gotten hold of it.

There, I've made my confession. I hope we all can be friends.

You mean to tell me that in 24 years , that oh so corrosive BP hasn�t eaten through the tin cans
WOW!!!!! Un heard of ����LOL�����
Sorry , just yanking your chain .Your Black powder will still be good .

Well, it's been a week now marinating in Hoppes. So far, no budge.

Pull the breech plug...

I was talking about this with a neighbor yesterday and he asked me why you hadn't tried soaking it in brake fluid?

I guess I looked at him funny, he grinned and asked me if I knew of anything else that would creep under grease, oil, carbon, paint, primer, galvanizing, and rust?

It may be worth a try...

Ed

While your problem may be different than mine...... here is what I do. I put a pair of vice grip pliers on the end of the ramrod, pour Kroil down the barrel, wait a couple of minutes and have someone who is at least as strong as you are hold the barrel (or put it a vise well padded) and pull. Mine always comes out. I guess I should tell you it usually ruins the ram rod and don't pull it so hard it breaks it off inside the barrel or you will have to get a really long drill bit or pull the plug. Don't ask your wife to help it will just cause a fight.

If I were in the Shaman's moccasins, or his suede crocs, I guess I'd just make a trotline sinker out of that stainless barrel.

I hope that his many years of wisdom and patience pay off and he is able to once again resurrect the smokepole.

I feel yer pain Shaman. I loaded my T/C .45 Hawken yesterday and when I pulled the ram rod out the brass tip stayed in the barrel.

It appears to be seated pretty damn firmly on top of the ball and won't come out.

See, you're not the only one doing the dance of displeasure because of a BP rifle.

Well, it's been a while. I pulled on the rod last night (sounds kinda kinky, huh?) NoGo.

I have a friend who's both an ex-marine and a PhD Chemistry. He said nix to the corrosives. He suggested freezing the barrel; the brass and the steel will shrink at different rates.

If you're of a mind,.....send that barrel back out here,....I'll sleeve a tool with some brass or hard copper, and MILL that mess out of there.

Remember the observation about "fins" on the rifling ?

That barrel needs to be lead lapped, before going back into service.

GTC

if its that stuck , just have a gunsmith remove the breech plug and knock the jag out.
i would point out again that there is no possible way that if the patch is gone from the jag , that the jag can stay in the bore , unless the jag was the same size as the bore to begin with . simply put , there is NOTHING that can hold the jag in the bore but fouling . if you soaked that fouling away then the jag will fall out.
More then likely the patch is still there . Eather wadded up around the back of the jag or the jag is probably driven part way through the patch after trying to get through the T7 gunk ring and thus letting pressure escape around the jag .
Unless you have buggered up the rifling , there is no need to re lap , drill out the jag ��..
Just pull the plug and knock the jag out . Then replace the plug .
Im thinking that you might be best to have someone else do it though

Cap, I had a CLOSE look at that barrel, while it was here,.....Nicely done but there were still residual fin like TEETH in the edges of the lands,.....and Shaman had commented that it rips patches,......

A little judicious Lead lapping CANNOT hurt that thing,.....only improve it.

cant hurt , but if thats whats holding the cleaning jag in the bore , then its going to take alot more then just lapping .
have him send th barrel back to you . take out the plug , knock the jag out and replace the breechplug .

Good advice welcomed and taken under the utmost, and respectful consideration.

I've got one of Dick Trenk's "Simple Bore Scope"s,....and in an application like this one it excels,.....

When things get silly,....I go borrow a friend's Hawkeye.

I think you're bang on,......there's still a big chunk of patch wadded up in there with the jag.

Oh, I agree. I saw the patch. It came out of the barrel on fire with the center missing.

Maybe you did . But probably what you saw was the back half of the patch .
By chance did you use a store bought gun cleaning patch without cutting it down , with a basic non necked cleaning jag placed on the end of your ram rod
OR
go down an buy one of those special range rods for cleaning . Then put the basic non necked cleaning jag on it with a gun cleaning patch .
OR
maybe you read about the issue with keeping the Lyman improved breech clean , so you bought one of those stepped cleaning jags from Traditions ?

If you used a basic non necked cleaning jag with a regular large square gun cleaning patch , that patch will wad up around the rod as you try and pull it out . Thus it will jam up tight .
If you want to use the large cleaning patches , you for the most part need a necked jag so the exstra material will have a place to go as you pull the RR out .

If you tried one of those step jag and used a proper size and thickness cleaning patch .� IE one only slightly larger then what you would use to shoot a RB with�
Got that down in the bore . Then got the tip stuck in the improved breech .

Lets do this .
Lets start over .
Take your RR , with the end that has lost its tip . Put it back down the bore and into the RR tip if you can . Mark a line on the rr right at the muzzle .
Take the RR out and lay it along the barrel so your mark is even with the muzzle .
Hoe far from the nipple is the broken end of your RR ?

captchee: I did this a little differently from the way you suggested, but I think this will give you a good idea. I ran a coat hanger down the barrel next to the ramrod. It hit bottom, at about an inch above the barrel/plug margin. The jag would add another 3/4 of an inch. Bottom line: The end of the jag is pretty close to end of the barrel.

you actually got a coat hanger size wire past the cleaning jag ??!!!!!!
what size jag did you use . a coat hanger wouldn�t fit past the correct size cleaning jag even without a patch .
for what its worth , the breech plug threads into the barrel a good 3/4 of an inch on your rifle. A standard cleaning jag is � an inch .
If your RR ends up being � in front of the joint of the barrel and plug , then your barrel is empty .
You know . Maybe im just grumpy today . But take the gun to a gunsmith and have him check it out for you . See if there really is anything down there . If so , have it removed


Other wise shoot the jag out . Take your nipple off , and push powder back into the anti chamber of the breech . On the Lyman and Pedersoli plugs they will hold around 15 grains of 3f inside the plug .
Now take your ramrod and make sure the jag is down to the breech face .
Fire the gun . Now re check by dropping the rr down the bore . Either the jag will be gone or it will have moved up the barrel a distance .. In which case you can then load more powder . Drive the jag back down and fire it again .
Even without a patch the jag will fire out
Jus make sure that each time you fire it , �whatever � you have down the bore must be pushed back down to the charge

I wanted to let you all know that the Hawken is back. I worked on it until mid-January, but no amount of PB Blaster, freezing, and other voodoo seemed to work. I sent it off to a gunsmith in January with the admonition that it be done by April 1. The gunsmith laughed and said the Hawken was a no-brainer. He'd pull the breech plug and call me in a week or two. The ensuing chaos is worth describing.

1) I called the gunsmith in late March. He said he hadn't had a chance to look at it.
2) In a subsequent call the gunsmith said he'd ordered a ball puller, because something was in the barrel. I explained that there was a cleaning jag in the barrel. Oh.
3) At the same time as I'd dropped off the Hawken, I had left him a Rem 870 that had some problems loading a second shell. That took three trips to correct. In one return trip, parts were removed from another customer's 870 and used to correct a problem while I watched.
4) I finally got back the Hawken. It was missing the wedge. The cleaning rod showed signs of excessive heating, and there was a scratch in the stock. A new wedge was machined. The scratch is still there. I'm going to order a new rod.
5) I never did get back the gun cases that I left with the guy. He gave me two other that weren't mine. They were nicer than mine, but exceedingly dirty.
6) The magazine of the 870 was wearing someone else's cap-- minus the sling stud. The smith installed a new stud at no charge.

. . . and then I found out the 'smith had been arrested for selling firearms to known felons. I'm just skimming the surface here. I'm still in negotiations for the movie rights to my story. I haven't had time to deal with the Hawken, but the 870 made it through turkey season with incident.

After reading through this post, I really hope you can kill something this Fall season, besides your wallet...

Thanks for a good chuckle!