Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Bringing Smokepole back from the dead

A relative of mine was in a spot. He needed cash, and put a Hawken up for sale. The price was right, so I snagged it.

The Hawken is a 50 cal no-name with a stainless barrel. His son had shot it and put it away dirty. After I got it home, and got into it, I found out the true depth of the trouble-- lots of rust, lots of grime and corruption.

After three days, a lot of Ed's Red, PB Blaster and Eez-ox, I had the barrel pretty well cleaned out. I got brake cleaner and a safety pin into the nipple and got things pretty well cleaned out there. I busted a couple of caps, and smoke came out the end of the barrel. I figure it's ready to shoot.

I think there is a permanent bit of pitting where the crud ring formed, but the patches are sliding through much better. I finally pulled a clean patch through it last night. After that, I polished it up with Flitz and then cleaned it back up until I got another clean patch.

The nipple is frozen-- won't budge. The barrel has "Made in Italy" on it, and that's it. I figure I should be able to shoot it until the nipple goes and then turn it over to a 'smith and let him figure out a way to replace it with a standard nipple

Help me out. What next?

Pictures to follow.

get the nipple out and clean that up . if its that rusted into place , you have no idea how much of the threads are left. Take a good look at where the nipple is most likely to go if it lets go .
add into that if you can push a safty pin through the nipple , its already shot out . Which means that when you fire the gun with a load , you will be subjecting the hammer to undo pressure . Which in turn effects the tumbler as well as the main spring .
Take a tooth pick and plug the nipple .then take you some penetrating fluid . And squirt around the nipple . Then put enough down the bore so as to fill the bolster . Let her set for a day or so and try to remove the nipple again. Once you get it out , you then can finish cleaning the rifle up by cleaning out the flash channel . Then re thread the bolster to the next sized nipple

Hmmm. That sound ugly. I'll probably turn it over to a 'smith then. I hadn't thought about the nipple coming loose.

Thanks.

WOW if thats SS and has made in italy on it, its a lyman and it runs around $600 new.

Have you tried heating it up a little?

make sure its unloaded before trying heat.

I'm pretty sure it was unloaded before I worked on it. By now, all the brake cleaner, PB Blaster, Ed's Red would have neutralized the charge. I can pour liquid in the end of the barrel and comes running out the nipple.

Heat. There's an interesting idea. I've heard you can heat it with a candle and put candle wax around the margin of the nipple and it will eventually work itself in. I figured if two days of PB Blaster didn't touch it, nothing would.

If you have a method for getting this nipple out, I'd be glad to hear it.

So y'all think this might be a Lyman? I should be able to get the nipple replaced pretty easy then, huh?

just use a propane torch and heat the bolster/nipple. It doesnt take much heat and then you just apply pressure with the nipple tool. Should pop right loose.

Sounds to me like the lyman deer stalker? in stainless steel.

Shaman, About 15 years ago I was fortunate enough to become the owner of a WILLIAM READ & SON 10GA DOUBLE BARREL percussion shotgun. A very large and heavy gun. The gun had not been used in probably 60+ years and had been wiped down EVERYWHERE with nearly full strength linseed oil and it was BLACK, metal & wood were BLACK with no checkering visible and the gun was loaded. After standing the barrel set on end with the muzzle up, I soaked it it for a week with PB Blaster and carefully unloaded it. I then took a tooth brush and some very thin linseed oil and very carefully dissolved the existing caked on linseed oil and dirt and found that I had a absolutely beautiful gun with checkering that looked like it was cut yesterday and metal with a wonderful brown patina. It turns out that the thick linseed oil that had been applied for so many years had actually preserved the gun. I had to make a new tapered ramrod and like your gun the nipples were seized. I thought about the nipples a few days and decided I'd try it on my own so I took a drill bit just larger than the hole at the top of the nipple and drilled through the nipple. Being careful to keep the angle correct I then used the next larger drill bit and did the same and then the next larger, and so on until I could see that I was almost into the threads. At that point the nipples popped off and I used a ice pick to remove the nipple metal that was left in the breech threads. The thread size is 1/4-28 and I have to use tall nipples. I now have a gun that could be 150+ years old and functions perfectly. I hunt deer, turkey, and dove with it and it's so beautiful that everyone that sees it wants to buy it.
I'll never sell it!!

Thanks for putting up with a long story but here's my point.
You could probably drill out your nipple as I did and save some time and money.

Good luck,
Mike

Thanks all. I guess I'll try and give it a bit of heat with the torch and see what happens. I'll call my ex-wife over to hold the end of the barrel, just in case it's loaded.

I'm going to go dark now for . . . well, it may be 48 hours or more. I'm heading to deer camp to check out what the drought's wrought. I'll be back here in a few.

Thanks again for all your help.

never bet your life that you have neutralized black powder .
Its either completely removed or its not .

Okay. I put an extra knot in the string and got the rust off the tin can. I'm back online.

Captchee, I completely agree. I guess the next question would be the best way to make that determination.

To date, I have kept Ed's Red in the barrel overnight, removed and replaced with PB Blaster. I have sent a ramrod down and it goes in about to the line of the nipple. I have removed the screw that is on the other side of the barrel and can send brake cleaner down the barrel and have it flow freely out that hole and the nipple. Lastly, I have touched off two caps, and a wisp of smoke comes out the barrel each time.

BTW: here's the picture that was sent to me:

i sure think its clear of powder .
I can tell you for a fact that oils will not neutralize powder . I once thought it would and would often soak original barrels with loads , in a barrel of oil for weeks before drilling out the load .. Then one day I had a set of SXS barrels go off while trying to remove a set of very stubborn breech plugs . I had even set a torch to the nipple seats and nothing happened .
However in the process of heating and then turning one plug, a amount of powder went off .which was enough to set off the other barrel who�s plug was also hot .
The only thing the two of us could come up with was that the old powder had been incrusted to the point that the oil only raised the ignition temperature of the outer shell of powder . When the plug moved , that crust was broke . Thus exposing a small amount of powder thus setting the rest off . The recoil then caused the second barrel to do the same ..
As a note to this . I also have witnessed charges that were blown with Co2 discharges having enough powder left in the barrel to be set of both by popping a cap and once even in a flintlock which fired with authority while flashing a pan right after being blow out with Co2 .
Im not saying either will happen in your case . All im saying is that if your applying heat to the nipple , be very careful. Keep the barrel pointed in a safe direction tell you 100% certain

As I mentioned earlier, I thought about calling up my ex-wife, Satan, and have her come over to hold the barrel while I heat it. She's a big, sturdy woman. I'm sure she could give it the firm grip it'll need.

You heard about Satan, din't you? She took me to court a few years ago looking for gobs of money. One of her excuses was that I'd called her "Satan" on the 24hrcf. The judge told her that she could sue for libel if she wanted, but that was not going to be discussed any further during the pending proceeding. Right after the hearing, I registered myexissatan.com. You want T-shirts, coffee mugs, you name it? I got it.

But I digress. So what IS the best way to make sure all the powder is deactivated? I know with primers, you can dowse them in WD-40 and they're inactive until the stuff dries.

Update: I got back from deer camp yesterday afternoon and grabbed the propane torch and some wax and went to work on the nipple.

I had partial success; I got a quarter turn out of the nipple, but the nipple suddenly froze, and the pliers kept going and. . .

a certain guardian angel is stepping in to help. More news as the situation develops.

Stay tuned.

I dunno about bein' much of an "Angel", Old Timer,......

Brown Truck rolled through this AM,......I unpacked your barrel a while ago, .......

figured you'd be glad to see this



Took longer to drag out the TIG apparatus and get it running than the actual welding (used 309 Filler Rod) . As pretty much anticipated,..... a piece of cake, and the threads are in PERFECT shape. The counter opposed / cross drilled "Clean Out" screw in the breech plug threads out quite handily, too.



Once again, the power of skill , science, and technology triumph over the forces of darkness and evil.

GTC

Hoop-De-Dooo! I'm doing my happy dance and leaving puddles!

Before you put it back in the wrapping, I would love to know what your recommendation for a new nipple would be. Is this really a Lyman rifle?

Many, Many Many thanks.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke,

I am going to my cargo shrine right now, wearing my steel pot helmet and sacrificing the straw effigy of a jeep in your honor.

EDIT: KYHillChick came out on the porch to see why I was so happy. I said that someone had welded a rod to my nipple to get a better grip with the vice-grips. She grabbed her breasts and shrieked and ran back in the house. I can't get her to open the door. Help.

Golly, when viewed in actual context, I don't blame her. Hope she doesn't call the PD and get you tazed, or worse. Use your RATTLE, man,.....

It's appropriate that we seek some help from the more seasoned ML types here,.....regarding said nipple, and it's recess (no, I am not talking about our lips or mouths, either) .

I measured 3 more or less 'Standard' ....."1/4-28TPI for #11 Cap" here. Their cylindrical dias., where they land are:
* .280"
* .275"
* .278"
....the one pulled from your Italian Barrel is .314"

That said, the nipple pulled from the Italian Barrel is the CLOSEST to an actual "1/4-28 TPI" of the bunch with a robust and TIGHT .245" dia , measured at the crest of the threads.

The ones I have here (3 ea.) are kinda puny at .230-.235" measured in the same mode. They come up LOOSE in the Italian Barrel's bolster,....looser that I'd run, anyway. Than, obviously, there's the disparity in the "seating Flange" diameter.

Comments / Advice, solicited.

....and THANKS in advance, for same.

GTC

I'm wondering if that Lyman uses a M6 x .75 nipple.? I think my old Lyman did...

I do believe you're on to something there, DW,....

Hey, thanks, I'll find a bolt in that pitch and give it a whirl.

Greg