So I've got this hunting buddy, and he's been a long time friend. I'm recent years I've seen my hunting philosophy diverge from his. My question is do I drop him as a hunting buddy or not?

I'll put it this way: we go out bear hunting. My goal is I need one bear to eat for the year, meat is ultimate goal. and I'm going to wait until I see a mature boar. It doesn't need to be a giant, but a for sure adult. And I'm doing a much as I can to assure it's a boar.
My buddy wants meat, and seems to be of the mind of "it's not accompanied by its mom, it's legal and fair game". We see a few young bears, 3 year old bears probably. They are too small for me to give a second look at, and he's getting frustrated that I'm not wanting to go after any of these bears. He's also not trusting of my judging that these are indeed small bears.

His argument is that he has two tags, so why discriminate? My argument is that a mature animal is going to yield 3x or more meat, and will have had the opportunity to contribute to the gene pool.

Same thing happens when we deer hunt, or anything else.

So my predicament is, do I continue bringing him on hunts to places that are important to me, if he's going to shoot immature animals? Or do I keep start keeping my spots to myself because I'll let the young ones grow? Do I take the risk of it impacting our friendship, or do I keep my mouth shut as he shoots year old does and juvenile bears?

I appreciate your input. Thanks.

Something to consider... a mature animal of any species has had a considerable "investment" from the population. At some point it starts to return the investment back to the species/population.

An immature animal has very little investment to pay back. A large percentage will die young and have little effect on the population.

What you see as minimum to kill is really an "expensive" critter. You insist on killing a prime animal... shouldn't you leave those for the predators?

TIC

As I have gotten older, I have come to the realization that friendship is a rare commodity. Your friendship is probably more important than you various hunting philosophies. Seems like you are splitting hairs. I recommend that you just chill a little. Allow your friend his own space.

I don't understand why what your friend wants to shoot is any of your business.

907brass;
Good morning to you sir, I hope that your section of Alaska is getting weather you need and you're well.

With the understanding that I'm certified in absolutely nothing in the psychology field, just a lifetime people watcher and semi-old guy, I'd say since you've asked and all that.

Sitka is correct on the animal choices and honestly around here in our section of the Okanagan where we're swimming in bears I wish everyone would start shooting one annually. I'll note too that the ones we have the most issues with as yard pests are overwhelmingly sub adult males.

Anyways I've observed that in most cases where a relationship is waning or perhaps even static, but not growing, that the involved parties will find each other's actions or activities less palatable than they once did. The little things that used to go unnoticed start to bug them, you know?

If after some honest soul searching, both parties decide that there is reason to salvage/rebuild the relationship, then steps will need to be taken which might include compromise. That might include some for you and some for him - likely will in fact.

Just some random thoughts from a little old guy offered without judgement.

All the best on your hunts and your friendship for sure whichever path you take.

Dwayne

i allowed four bears to be taken off my land last season. they ranged from 60 lbs to 200. the 60pounder was the pest and the 200 was just unlucky.
the meat from the 60 was reported as the "best meat of any kind" the hunter had ever eaten.
the 200 pounder was ground and some made into sausage. in other words it needed to be helped along to be edible.
i would probably never have taken the dink, but the guy that did was ecstatic.
some drink lite beer some drink stout. then some drink bud lite!

As normal, Dwayne has a solid, though simultaneously open minded answer.

One more point from a biological/wildlife management standpoint, is that is seems black bears are doing well as are Sitka deer in your area with little issues in the way of their habitat/basic needs. With that in mind, the populations can likely handle more younger individuals being taken out of the population.

If those were species more sensitive to disturbance, the populations were low, etc., I suspect there’d be more harm in taking out the younger males/females.

Just something to consider.

Let's say you started hunting side-by-side with another long-time friend - a true trophy hunter. This hunter wants a "book" bear every time or nothing. You walk along and you both happily pass on all those younger specimens, but then a really good, mature boar steps out of the thickets. It's not 150 yards away and it starts to feed. It's not a record book bear, but so what! It fits perfectly into the category of bear you want to harvest. You take a rest with your rifle and your partner whispers, "what are you doing? Let that bear (and meat) walk. It won't make book." This friend continues with that critical attitude year-after-year. Would you understand if your partner "dropped" you, or would you feel better if your partner just grinned and let you shoot your bear?

My 2 cents worth - flip a coin to see who gets first shot. If the shot is yours and you choose to pass on the bear, you're completely out of the decision at that point. If you can't live with that (and I'm not saying that's a bad thing), either leave camp in different directions or just stick to fishing together. Wait, do either of you have a thing about throwing back smaller fish??

I no longer have hunting or fishing partners. I go alone.
I've been shot out there by partners. I've had my camp and thousands of dollars worth og gear burnt up by partners. I've cooked for them, done their dishes, and immediately after they shot something, it was time for them to go back to work.
It's dangerous going alone, but it has been plenty dangerous going with others, too. And my solitude has become quite wonderful..........

Dwayne,
Well put, per your usual.

Bringing it to basic relationship issues reminded me of this John Prine song.


"She still laughs with me, but she waits just a second too long."

Snowwolfe, it's not my business, especially when he goes out hunting on his own. To further clarify, I feel this way when he asks me to take him out on my boat (he's not an experienced boater) to the spots far from town where I've found good bears, and then he's wanting to take the first juveniles he sees.


Folks, I appreciate the added perspective. I can get bogged down in my own mind and it's hard to see past myself.

907….You’ve been given some good advice and different perspectives from the guys here so I won’t belabor the shooter versus non-shooter. We all have different goals and ideas of what’s worthy to harvest and what, in our opinion, should walk. If it’s not against the law then we have to weigh it against our own ethics. Some guys, for whatever reason, would be satisfied with a “cub” while others won’t be happy unless they take a “book bear” but both are legal to harvest….the conundrum becomes what our expectations are versus reality.

I’ve been faced with the same situation that you are currently facing and I’ve made decisions that were best for me. If I can’t fully trust my hunting partner to follow “our plan” or stick to what we agreed on before the hunt I tend to withdraw from the “partnership”. I want to spend my time afield thinking about the animals and the hunt, not worrying about where my partner is or worried he’s going to “ruin” our original hunting plans. Irrespective of whether it’s legal you have to ask yourself if it’s worth the effort you put in. If one is satisfied with a small bear they usually don’t have to go to a lot of trouble ie having you transport them to productive areas while burning your fuel and taking your time and your diesel just for a dink bear.

I’ve made the decision to drop hunting partners several times through the years and it’s never an easy decision but hunting is too important to me and too special for me that I can’t fake my joy. As hunters we grow and mature often going through various stages as we progress through the “levels” of the hunter. I will no longer hunt with guys that aren’t of a similar frame of mind as myself. I LOVE being outdoors and I love hunting but nothing can ruin perfection faster than a incompatible hunting partner. A big part of my enjoyment of the wild places is the fact that I can let go of all the worldly frustrations and just focus on the moment. If I’m saddled with a hunting partner that I don’t trust or one that I have to spend my time worrying about then it takes away from my fun and I jealously guard my outdoor fun.

If this guy is a really good friend and it’s just hunting where you get frustrated at him then maybe a serious discussion would clear the air? If that doesn’t work then I’d be inclined to hunt solo….or find someone who’s values are more in line with yours.

^^^This^^^

I hunted with s gentleman once that shot 2 fawns while hunting deer on our hunt together in one of my honey holes for mule deer, never hunted with him again. People on the forum in Alberta like shooting calf moose, very sad. Here come the AO TROLLS!

I am a meat hunter, what's the point in shooting smaller animals with little meat?

I must be missing your point. What is wrong with your friend wanting to shoot the first juvenile he sees?
After all, it is his bear tag.

Not to belabor it, i just want to make sure you understand my question. I'm not asking if my friend should do what he wants -- he's stubborn and going to do/shoot what he wants.
So again my question is would you stop taking a friend hunting with you if ethically you disagree with the fawns and juveniles he is willing to shoot.

AcesNeights, thank you for your reply. I think that pretty well sums up what I feel when I plan/do a hunt with him.

And Dwayne, I appreciate your reply as well. That's some deep stuff to think about.

Woudn't hunt with him ever again. Just explain it, if he can't accept it too bad.

No, I wouldn’t stop hunting with a friend because of what he wants to shoot. After all, he is licensed and legal in the game unit you guys are hunting.
Different strokes for different folks.
But I am sensing there is more to this story than what you posted.

Finding a good hunting partner is a rare thing. This is doubly true when we're talking about hunting in truly wild country as opposed to a day spent on the back 40 back east. Is this a guy you can count on when something goes really wrong and it's just you and him?

Like religion, it comes down to what you decide are essential and non-essential issues. Another thing is that hunting partnerships can be either peer to peer, or mentoring. Which do you want? My favorite hunting partner is my 16 year old. He's shifting from being mentored to being independently functional. I love it. Aside from the boy, I mostly find myself hunting alone. I got tired of dealing with guys flaking out, not having the right mindset, being selfish, or running their mouth about locations.

Is he really a friend or an occasional hunt acquaintance?

Really a friend, for a long time. We usually hunt together a couple times a year.

Seems like a resonable person such as yourself could find a way to remain friends and focus on common things. Good luck.

You have a friend that you can trust no matter what comes alone in life or just in wanting to have access to a hunting situation and take advantage of your knowledge, etc? You know the answer to this, take it for what it is worth and move on to more important things in life….if doing this you will be at rest and life will be happy for you and your friend.

The smaller ones are tastier and easier to haul out.

Ask yourself this question.

Is the pleasure worth the pain?

I have seen the character of people reflected/revealed through their hunting ethics/ethos that led me away from them. Without getting too deep into it there is no doubt a moral flexibility in regard to life taking and I believe you know which side you stand on. I have no doubt you can find partners with the same standards. We live where we live so OfCourse you will be respectful and cordial as you may want to include that individual in other aspects of your life. The more friends you have the richer you are. I can't imagine you are lacking for perspective hunting partners living where we do...I have an example of this same moral dilemma from this year. We were in P burg this spring for my wife's brown bear trip. She was successful on the last day in the last twenty minutes. This year was not her first attempt. She had passed on/attempted stalks on around 20 bears prior to that day. Going home without a bear was nothing to her. She took in everything for what it was, and we relish those memories of the trips without a bear in the boat on the way home. This year upon return from her hunt we ran into a group form out of state. One of us had on a hoody that was inadvertently from a neighboring state of theirs and they assumed that we were from the same neck of the woods and got really loose lipped about borderline ethical choices. Let's just say the phrase "a bear is a bear " was thrown around a lot. At one point my wife said, "no that's a bathmat" and that is where we parted ways. For them it was about getting something to justify the experience, but they missed it. What it really accomplished was disdain and resentment from the locals as they were referred to as the "cub killers." It was all about we got this many fish and this many crabs and this much bear meat, not one word about what they saw. I'll pass on those type of folks all day every day when it comes to doing things I love.

Interesting thread and viewpoints. I enabled a partner for years ( equipment, vehicle, fuel, access, scouting etc) . Got tired of the less than 50/50 situation. He is not using me anymore..mb

These moral questions can be painful and if you’re a paid-for guide it can be really tough when you depend on hunters and tips to make ends meet. My late Brother guided in Idaho and Wyoming for about twelve or more years. Things were better economically if he could get work on the drill rigs in Wyoming but some years he had to buck hay or work as a ranch hand. He told me about two hunters he took out around the Yellowstone ‘ thorofare ‘. Both appeared well healed from somewhere in CT. Both of them were equipped with like new BAR’s in 7mags and were able to hit a target. They had cow tags and my Brother had a honey hole West of Metetse that would fill the bill.

After getting them finally saddled up on two reliable gentle horses they spotted a bunch of six to eight cows feeding. They got down and made an easy stalk to about 100-150 yards. They were told to stay put until my Brother could glass them. All of a sudden these knuckleheads started firing into the bunch. Both emptied their mags. When it was over my Brother said there were at least three wounded maybe four but all of them got into the timber and were lost.
My Brother was pissed and they headed back to the truck and trailer and loaded out. He refused to take them next day and got another guide the task. From what he heard they did the same thing but one of the wounded was a two year old bull. These guys said they were spending big money and as long as they were having fun and not breaking any laws just do your job and find the elk. The whole experience was beyond disgusting and to make things worse the hunters filed a complaint with the state board saying he was abusive. It was dismissed.

Rick

Simple .....

I have friends, BUT do not have "hunting buddies" and have been solo hunting for 30 plus years, except when I take my immediate family members,

I don't shoot raghorns unless it's the last day or two of the season, then it's a dedicated meat run

Most of my friends will shoot first legal, first day at first light ...

I ain't got time for trigger happy mofo's in my hunting area killing the first animal they see, they can do that somewhere else on their own dime & time

There is no way that you are going to be content hunting with this guy again. It is an unfortunate fact that most (not all) hunting "friends" have a use-by date. The only issue is how you make the break. I suggest you explain that you have changed and you now prefer to hunt alone, but you would like to keep him as a friend. If he doesn't accept this...then so be it.

The remoteness and hunting from a boat makes that a hard question to even have perspective on. We can travel to hunting spots in a pickup and hunt afoot. If a partner wants to go after a critter I don't want to shoot, I can dump him out of the pickup and come back later. If he's successful, caping and quartering a deer on your own isn't too tough and depending on what I'm doing in the meantime, it's no thing to pack it back to wherever I'm going to pick him up.

Honestly, I only have 3 friends that I really LIKE to hunt big game with, and almost never more than 1 at a time. We see things the same way and there's no hurt feelers when a person says, "I want to get after that critter", and the other says, "Have at it." and takes off to do his own thing. We hunt together too, but everyone understands it could turn into a solo affair at any minute.

Sounds like you're uncomfortable with the status quo. Sounds to me like in some ways you are "carrying" him. No boat, your spots, etc.

I wouldn't dump him, friendship IS important. There has to be some give and take. I would separate a bit so that at times when it matters you do things your way even if it means going alone. Other times, when you're feeling up to dealing with compromise .. we aren't always every day .. then take him and be a bit more flexible about "his" way. Maybe it would be good to tell him what you are doing and why you are doing it. If he does not understand or gets weird about it, then that, too, is a basis for reevaluating the friendship. If he's not willing to "go there", then this is getting manipulative and the odds go up that you really do need to dump him as a friend regardless of hunting.

Tom

It depends do you enjoy his company? Does he pitch in on expenses? Does he help with chores cleaning and packing meat? A lot of considerations go into what makes a good hunting partner. One of my best died a few years back and I miss him every hunting season.

... maybe he feels the smaller younger bears are better eating ... the favourite recipe for the really old stringy boars is "cook the roast in a pre-heated oven at 400 degrees then eat the oven door" ... the old boars have proven themselves in the survival of the fittest contest and they need to be alive to spread their "successful" genetics around ... as long as the bear your partner takes is legal I don't understand how his legal choice is any of any one elses business ... some hunt for the table not the trophy wall

Sounds like you know the answer

I would hunt with him but not take him to areas I really want to hunt for big bores. He may not have the time nor money that’s involved to be more selective. Have a frank conversation with him it’s the overriding theme being your desire to maintain the friendship and see how he takes it. Find some type of compromise so that both of you meet each others expectations and lower them if needed for the sake of the friendship.

Brother, you've answered your own question. If he's a long time friend, have the conversation. Whether or not ya'll agree perfectly will become irrelevant.

What happens when he kills the object of his search, or you your's, first?
If he kills, does he start yammering about going home.
If you do, does he assist you in dealing with a big bear? Or, just ignore
your toils and go off pursuing his quest?



The answers are very telling.
And a damn sight higher on the list of Friendship Positives than the size of animals
sought.

as i have grow`n older i have never understood why people gotta kill an animal so they can say i got my winter meat in the freezer , many times its on opening day they kill that animal and then in the spring they give the meat from that animal away . WTF makes no sense to me ? myself i hunt mostly for a decent larger 8 pt. or bigger buck deer and that means i may not shoot a buck every year . i will shoot a doe in the very early season for a tasty meat deer before deer start running ,rutting and screwing ,that`s when the meat is tasty red and have very little smell then in farm country , but at my deer land i own myself only a bigger buck , reason i have put minerals out for now over 20 years , but ladies and kids can take one little deer a year to them that`s a trophy kinda. grandkids need to learn to shoot guns and animals , i want them all to have lots of fun ,i feel that`s how you learn to be a much better hunter . myself i like to watch deer more than to shoot a deer ,deer are interesting to me and sometimes even funny , many times someone will ask see any deer i say yes , some days i may see only 1 deer ,but every once in a while i may 10 - 15 or 20 deer or 2 nice bucks fighting in a all day sit and that is special to me . and when i bear hunt i don`t shoot boobo either . good luck this fall, Pete53

Pretty simple for me.
Generations grew up rely on game for meat, or at the least eating game so they
could sell animals for much needed cash.

I was a generation at the end of that.
Our family loves deer meat. Before kids, 20 years ago) we ate 3 or 4 deer per year.
Now the herd has been so reduced I can't kill that many in good conscience.


Anyone familiar with PA will find this...."interesting"!

Dwayne has wrapped up some great advice, again, he is so useful for these boards.

I am only posting because...I've never been bear hunting...so I would only shoot what my partner/guide told me to shoot at...unless I was getting charged.

Good luck to you and your friend...and to the bears. At least both of you are honoring the sport through good harvest use.

The terms "friend" or "friendship" needs qualification. It's common for "gunwriters" to refer to some "big-named-person" as "their friend". It's name-dropping at its finest! But a "true friend who can find?", to quote Scripture. The foundation of true friendship is based on much more than being a hunting partner, or having one. I've had many hunting partners over many years, and many were "friendly" but not necessarily true friends. My best friends, who have stuck with me to my current age of 87 were non-hunters. They were not against hunting, and often showed interest in MY hunting adventures, but their lives, activities and interests were elsewhere.

The basic foundation for true and lasting friendship has to be mutual acceptance and respect, not what that person can do for me! Sure, there must also be other areas of life where there's mutual interests without living in each others kitchen, such as faith, politics or professionalism, but with mutual respect and acceptance without perfectionism.

I had one hunting partner for several years who was younger than I by at least 10 years, a CO who knew little about hunting. He wanted to hunt bear with me, so we hunted bear, moose, deer and coyote together. But still, often I hunted alone, which I mostly prefer. It wasn't long before his "professionalism" and "perfection" tendencies took over and making me nervous over not "obeying" everything the "law" demanded to the last degree. It turned out that he was unsure of all that entailed himself! Like: could I carry a rifle for protection while baiting for bear before the season actually opened. The final straw was when he demanded in an angry tone that I not move my downed bear one inch before tagging it! I'd askedd for help in moving it from alders to an open spot a few feet away for tagging and field dressing.

He just couldn't let "friendship" get in the way of being a CO with overbearing perfectionist tendencies.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

on a coyote hunt a Game warden was with and started this crap about what is right . the 70 yr. old owner of the coyote dogs asked the young warden this question : do you want to be a warden when we are hunting or just another hunter ? well he learned his lesson quickly he is still hunting with them as another hunter .

Seems akin to refusing to go out to dinner with your friend because he's dating a ugly woman.

It appears the issue is your ability to accept his "ethics" which differ than your own.

Your partner is not hunting illegally, so it is strictly your self imposed personal ethics.

I have shot does on Hinchinbrook and then have the fawn come in and lay down 15 feet away while I gutted momma on the beach. Swore i would only shot horns after that. They are bigger and I want the meat.

Fact is in a heavy snow year a lot of those deer are not going to make it.

Nature is a lot crueler than man shooting a juvi with a well placed shot, which would be my criteria when it comes to hunting ethics.

Just my thoughts, each to his ownus

With all due respect, I personally think your delima is rather a petty one. Do you actually have that many friends that you can just dismiss one for "their" way of hunting. They are his tags, nothings being done illegally, and evidently he is happy with what he kills. If you want more mature animals, that's great. Do what makes you happy but keep the friend, enjoy their company and have a great time doing it.

Life is really short. There just isn’t much time. A guy can have many casual acquaintances, but a lot fewer “friends”. But, if he’s really blessed, he has that one rare, true friend who knows him as well as he does himself…and still loves him. That is the friend that would die for you.

Neither would want to offend the other on secondary or tertiary issues.

A couple successful people have put it this way.

You’re either in the boat or not.

You’re either with me, beside me, or in the way.

How important is it…. Or worth losing a friend.

My best friend and I don’t always see eye to eye about everything hunting and fishing. Neither one of us worry about it much though as we’ve spent a lot of quality time together and we always have a good time. If one of us was adamant about particulars the other would respect it. If my buddy only wanted a 70” moose and I’d settle for a fork horn, we’d just be happy for each other and enjoy our time outside. Life is short, real friends are few, and good times are not frequent enough.

Are you with me ? Or am I alone?

My best friend is my favorite hunting partner has been for 40 years. I've hunted with alot of people over the years. Some are still friends some are not. My friend is always the one I ask if I'm planning a trip sometimes it works out sometimes it doesn't. some people have been good some have not. the nots got there chance I move on. Seldom I've been invited on hunts that are of quality i've given others. But I still hunt with other people yearly some stick some don't. But if my best friend wants to hunt I know It's going to be fun, And fun is what it;s all about. If it's not fun why?