I've no doubt this has been rehashed numerous times but still wanted to run it past the board.

Should be on the ground 8 Sept for Grizzly. This will not be Brown Bear. I'll be far above the 62nd parallel. My outfitter tells me a large boar can go 500-550 lbs; sows about 1/2 that. They "do" shoot a 9 footer each year. About 25% of his bears are B&C. He prefers shots @ 80-100 yds. Some hunters have shot as far as 250 yds. Average wind speed per a climate web site I found for the local town is 10 mph with a max of 57 mph. Their are no trees or mountains where I'm going so I'm told it blows, alot! No steep up/down angles. Just wide open rolling country.

I've got two rifles with 3 bullet choices.

My first is my Rem 700 in 30-06 Ackely w/ 26" ss Lilja barrel pushing the 180 Accubond @ 3000 fps. Accuracy can get me 4.25" groups at 800 yds. MPBR=303 yds w/ a 3" max/min height. 10 mph wind moves the bullet 5.5" @ 300 yds. Enerby is 2431 ft lbs w/ impact vel being 2466 fps.

My 2nd is the same rifle but with the 200 Partition @ 2850 fps. Accuracy is just about as good. MPBR=287 yds. 300 yd bullet movement due to 10 mph wind is 6.3". Energy is 2363 ft lbs w/ impact vel being 2307 fps

My 3rd possible choice is a CZ 550 American in 9.3x62 pushing the 286 Paritition at 2400 fps. Accuracy with my load has been 1 to 1-1/4 MOA. MPBR=241 yds. 10 mph wind moves the bullet 8" @ 300 yds. Energy is 2320 ft lbs with impact vel being 1911 fps.

Nosler suggest 1800 minimum impact velocity.

I'm not expecting any bad things to happen but one should still be prepared. I talked to one of the outfitters previous 2007 bear hunters who ended up taking his 7' Grizzly @ 100 ft as it was "walking" unknowingly towards him on a path through the willows. Plowed it under with a 300 RUM and the 180 Scirrocco.

I'm not worried about any of the potential combinations "not" working. Wish I could shoot a bear with each combo. Like that's going to happen!

I'd run one of the Partition loads and not worry about 800 yard accuracy.

Seems like you are making this overly complicated, but folks do that.

I'm with SH on this one. If you achieve your, and your guide's, objective, you will be shooting a 500 lb animal at less than 100 yards. If you are prepared for such an event, it will not require gnat's-hair accuracy on your rifle's part.

I would suggest that you practice shooting at randomly placed targets at random ranges from uncomfortable positions in uncurried country, more than you worry about ekeing the last bit of sub-minute accuracy out of a load combination. Also practice shooting at targets withing 50 feet or so, rapidly -- just in case something does go south.

As far as your rifle and bullet choice goes, I'm not a big fan of Nosler bullets, but others find them quite adequate. If you're comfortable shooting the rifles, either one will work fine.

I'd make sure not to be over-scoped, too.

Mostly, relax and enjoy the adventure.

Dennis

I'd use whichever rifle I preferred to carry, given your options, and you can't go wrong with NP.

Use whatever gun you are most familar with. Partitions and the 9.3x62 would be my choice, but I'm a Whelen shooter too.

Good luck.

A bit anal, are we? Any of the above will do fine. Pick the one you want to kill a bear with.

How is YOUR accuracy, by the way?

Las,

Now, that's the most prolific response I've read yet!

LUCK!

Could only be bad.

Battue

grin

Bingo!

You can do as you please, but I wouldn't take either one of those 30/06 Ackley Improved loads on a hunt of a lifetime.
You are trying to make a 300 Magnum of of an '06 Improved, and if you get up there and have a blown primer or case head seperation at the wrong time, you are going to be hating life.
A 30/06 loaded to normal velocities will do all you need to do and more. the 30/06 AI will give you an extra slight edge, so there is nothing to be gained and a lot to be lost by hotrodding it.
You are focusing on thestuff that doesn't matter, and overlooking what does matter. Think dependability and field shooting skills, not ft lbs of energy parsed to the nearest ounce.

Fred

.

If I were hunting Grizzley for the first time, I would take the advice of those who have experience-and most of those who have replied do-although I don't-to heart. If you don't why ask? That hunt is no place to find attitude isn't enough.

Battue

GSSP, if your velocities are above loading manual velocities, your pressures are above loading manual pressures. It's that simple. And if you are running as far above maximum as you claim, you are probably WAY above max pressures.
What I don't understand is why, if you want 300 magnum velocities, yuo just don't buy a 300 magnum?
From your posting of your ultra high velocities and your 800 yard group size, I tend to think the idea behind your post was to impress us with your numbers, rather than to solicit ideas about what would make the most practical bear round.

.

What do you use to measure pressure?

Dang, with all those high-powered credentials, I can't imagine why you ask any questions around here.

As I said, LUCK!

This is not going where I wanted it to go. If I could I would delete the orignial post. Sorry if I have offended.

I'm gone!

How far her head shoots back

dang tough crowd......(laffin)

I would go with choice #2. You seem to like that -06, and it's a shooter, whats not to like. A 200gr partition at that velocity is a right stout load. I would bring the CZ as a back up. JMO

I would use the Nosler Partition bullet, with a preference to the 30/06 Imp. and 200 gr. NP

X2

Good luck!

I also have a cz in 9.3x62 but have only kill paper with it. With brown or grizzly bigger is better if one can put it on the mark. I think the 286gr .366 bullet would brake bones much better and flatten the bear. Also if things go bad I would much rather have a 286gr than a 200gr bullet on a very close and mad bear. I am sure your guide will have a large cal rifle. Also with the heavier bullet you should be able to break the front shoulders. It's nice to take the bears running gear out so he doesn't run into the alders and waits for you to come looking for him!! best of luck to you and hope you get big bear!!
Patrick

I have to disagree with you. You will be hunting Brown Bear.

DNA analysis has recently revealed that the identified subspecies of brown bears, both Eurasian and North American, are genetically quite homogeneous.

The longer outer guard hairs of the brown bear are often tipped with white or silver, giving a "grizzled" appearance.

Do whitetail deer from Maine look the same as a whitetail from Texas? No but they are both whitetail deer.

Coastal Brown bears in general will always be larger then inland bears. The coastal bears diet is loaded with protien from Salmon.

Also note that ground cover effects color phases of bears. Most all color phase bears come from the west where there is more open terrian and sunlight will shine on the bears. Maine produces very very few color phase black bears due to dense forest cover. Southeast Alaska is the same, our skies are charcoal gray, forest is thick, and sunlight is rare. These bears will be of the darker brown shades including a blackness.

What you are calling a grizzly is a Brown bear that is smaller in size on average then a coastal brown bear. Up in the interrior there is plenty of sunshine in the summer and these brown bears have the white or silver tipped hairs which gave them the name gizzly. Kodiaks are also brown bears and Coastal at that. The difference between them and say a southeast coastal brown bears is their diet is even more so loaded with Salmon protien then ours in SE AK. Which tends to make them larger in size. So until you can produce scientific evidance stating other wise you will be hunting Brown Bear (Ursus arctos). Enjoy your hunt.

I dont neccessarily agree with your idea of why bears are a given color. I have seen grizzlies that are dark brown on the north slope and I have seen blonde grizlies on the north slope. I have also seen dark brown Brown bears on Kodiak and I have seen blonde Brown bears on Kodiak. I think the sun/open country/forest concept is a more of a myth. Its merely a gene thing from bear to bear IMO.

And for arguments sake we dont refer to the bears of the interior as browns like they do down south, in the interior they are called grizzlies by most people, so IMO their geneology is just science talk not common conversation terms.

Also, the reason Kodiak grows some big bears is the fact many of the biggest bears never hibernate. There is always something "good" washing up on the beach and they can manage the winter without the long nap and all the growth stunting that can lead to...

Oh yeah, Accubombs are one of the few bullets I like less than the NP... I have recovered far too many NPs to use them anywhere I thought a blood trail might be a good thing... And I ALWAYS like a good blood trail.
art

Did not say that was the only factor in color phase. However it is a factor. I have seen light color Browns in SE AK specially on Chichagof Island. Also did not say you don't call them Brown Bears in the Interrior. I was aiming that at the original poster that stated he was not hunting Brown Bears that he was hunting Tundra Griz. If it were a gene it would spread more and you would see more color phase bears. In black bears as well. Also there is no scientific evidence of genes causing color phase.

While the causes are not perfectly clear, there is evidence to suggest that coat colors vary as a mechanism of camouflage or due to climate and habitat. Bears in moister, more densely forested regions tend to be black, while bears in the West, where conditions are drier and vegetation is sparser, tend to be brown or cinnamon. A black coat allows the bear to blend into the shadows created by dense trees and brush, and a brown coat blends better with the sandier, browner landscape. In addition, black retains heat far more than does a lighter color, so brown phase bears are less susceptible to heat stress in more open terrain. The surface temperatures of a black bear's fur can heat to 180 degrees Fahrenheit in the direct, hot, summer sun. Finally, there is evidence to suggest that melanin, the pigment responsible for the black coat color, is more resistant to abrasion, thus it would be advantageous to those bears living in heavily forested regions. Only 1% of the black bears in Pennsylvania are brown or red in color, while over 90% of the black bears in Yosemite National Park in California are tan, light brown or cinnamon.

MontanaCreekHunter
"Also there is no scientific evidence of genes causing color phase."

That is an interesting concept... All that gene mapping that has been and is being done on dog coat colors and such has no carryover?

I think not... Color is 100% determined by genes in all cases, all animals. I am seldom inclined to make such a direct statement and using "all" is a trap I try to avoid, but your statement is completely wrong.

Natural selection would favor the animal best suited for their particular environment and select the best gene combination for their genetic welfare.
art

Kermode's Bear kinda makes your case, as does SE Alaska's glacier bear.

Ursus arctos horribilis is the same species, whether he lives on the North Slope, the Western Peninsula, Kodiak Island, in Southeast, or in Yellowstone National Park. The "brown bear" vs "grizzly bear" distinctions are an artifact of Boone & Crockeet Club/SCI trophy rules, and have no basis in biology.

Dennis

[quote=Sitka deer]MontanaCreekHunter
That is an interesting concept... All that gene mapping that has been and is being done on dog coat colors and such has no carryover?

I think not... Color is 100% determined by genes in all cases, all animals. I am seldom inclined to make such a direct statement and using "all" is a trap I try to avoid, but your statement is completely wrong.

A Bear is not a dog. Are you suggesting that we can just take totally different animals and lump their biologly together? Come on now you have to be smarter then that. I have a very good friend that is a Bear Biologist. I am by no means an expert but I do comprehend the information he passes to me. I suggest you read up on the subject. This is a pretty good place to start www.amerincanbear.org. Show me where you get your information that "ALL" 100% Color is determined by genes because the Biologist/Zoologist I know state other wise. So I will await your information, I hope for your sake you can find info somewhere stating other wise. If you don't then you really made a fool of yourself.

Muledeer, I have read a bunch of your post. Have to say your knowledge and information is spot on. Yes the SE Glacier Bear is another color phase of the Black Bear. Look at the numbers of these bears they are small. I have seen many Black bears up on and around the Mendenhall Glacier and on and around the Taku Glacier. In all the bears I have seen only three "Glacier bears". While kayaking in Tracy Arm I have never seen anything but jet black Black Bears. If it were a gene it would be more dominatain in these areas. Which leads me to believe in what I have read and what my buddy has told me. That is that there is no scientific evidence of color Phase being a Gene. As I said earlier it is environment that creates the color Phasing. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that is absolute. I am saying thats what is known right now and generally accepted by Biologist and Zoologist (the experts). Me I am just an outdoor junkie clown.

Please identify your ADF&G bio friend via email. I know most of them and I would love to address them directly for either saying something so grossly wrong, or not getting it straight for you.

If you think there is no carry-over to bears please explain how they did/do such a great job with every domestic furbearing animal in managing color. My grandfather made a killing during the depression as a part-owner of a Canadian fox farm. They used principals of genetics to develop foxes worth many thousands of dollars. That must have been luck and bears must be different?

I think not. I am also not too concerned of being made a fool.

The concept of genes as carriers of such basic information is so utterly basic in biology I do not know where to start in bringing your misunderstandings up to speed.
art

Oh yeah...
"A Bear is not a dog. Are you suggesting that we can just take totally different animals and lump their biologly together?"

Yup, that is exactly what I am saying. The fundamental underpinnings are so well known and sound I am willing to stand on that limb...

Any of the rifles/loads will work fine. Put that 800 yd stuff out of your head! I doubt if your guide will let you shoot past 300. Used a .300 on my mt grizz and a .338 on the brownie.

LC

Out of your 3 options listed I would take # 2, if it were my hunt.

Geez Dean stay with the task at hand will ya?

IOW's quit hijacking the thread.

we've got the makings of a potential pizzin match and you want to go back to the original question?

what kind of outdoors enthusiast are ya?


btw how is you? Me, I'm in the mood for a Peartini!

The Kermode bear is one of several color phases of black bear in North America; the others include brown and cinnamon brown (sometimes moderately frequent in the western USA) and pale blue (rare, near Yakutat Bay, Alaska). To ascertain the uniqueness of A893G within the black bear species, we also assayed two other bears with variant coat colors. One was a white bear that was found in Minnesota, USA, and was phenotypically very similar to the Kermode bear. However, we found it did not differ from the black bear mc1r sequence except for a silent C408 transition at Gly136. As well, an assay of a cinnamon bear mc1r sequence revealed no amino acid-changing variants relative to the black bear mc1r sequence.

As you can read here the only gene found is in the Kermode Bears of B.C.

You sure have a lot to say and nothing to back it up with.

Would you like to borrow a bigger shovel?

I'm now confused, so I'm going to try to clarify the argument, at least for my own sake.

MontanaCreekHunter: The color of any given bear's hair is largely determined by environmental conditions.

Sitka Deer: The color of any given bear's hair is largely determined by genetic factors.

If I have this wrong, please straighten me out...because I at least want us know what we're arguing about.

Thanks... ,

Dennis

I can only speak for myself but yes that is what I am saying. I am not saying that there can't be other factors. Just that is the major factor.

I have provided support with my statements. He has provided nothing. Of course farming animals you can change genetics to achieve what you want. We are not talking about altering anything here. This is a natural wild animal. There is a big difference here.

Darryl
I am saying genes determine the color of bear hair... Period.

MCH is contending bruins have unlimited access to Lady Bearol and change their colors at the drop of a honey bucket. Or at least decide after the fact what color they wish to be by choosing a particular habitat.

Which is of course a ludicrous Lamarckian thought process.

What I am saying is a combination of genes determines color. Often in color genes there is another rare, mostly unrelated gene trumping the works to produce a particular phase. Typically these genes work by disabling the color producing genes and produce a lighter color individual. Examples of this would include white labs. They have seven genes determining color in a normal run and yet a specific and generally unrelated gene can cancel the works and produce a white pup from two black parents.

MCH
You confuse the concepts of expectations and existance in the genome. Simply because the gene they thought they had isolated as phase determining proved inconclusive does not mean there is no gene determining color. Or as I read in a Heinlein novel decades ago "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
art

Mendel is right; Lamarck is wrong.

Environment can influence the appearance of hair color in a specific bear, but it can neither determine nor change the genetically determined color. Period. For example, an individual bear who spends a lot of time in the sun may appear lighter through sun bleaching, but if you put that specific bear in the rain forest it would darken back to its original color.

Where environment determines color is through long-term genetic selection. If there is an advantage to the species -- not the individual -- of a particular hair color, over time the population in that area will tend to be homogeneous and reflect that advantage. Genetics always triumphs, though -- witness Kermode's Bear, which is pure white (not albino) yet lives in the deep dark rainforest of British Columbia, where one would expect nature to select for dark-colored bears, as it does in SE Alaska.

Every single physical characteristic that every living creature on this earth, including us, is born, hatched, sprouted or divided with is determined by its genetic codes, except in the case of some externally-induced malformation.

I don't mean to be pedantic, but this was cleared up a rather long time ago.

Dennis

eyup....

+1

I have been out in the sun for the last month. The hair on my arms has been environmentally "changed" to light tan and even that change is probably genetically programed. Come winter it will be its natural brown. KISS. Applies to bears I'm sure and anything else genetically arranged. When it comes to physical traits you "is what you is."

Oh yea, put the right bullet in the right place and you will have a dead bear of one color or another.

Battue

Dear Abby,

I live among a population of folks who are black haired to the tune of a high 90 percentage range, yet my hair remains light after several decades. What gives?

signed, Confused

PS, Are bears related to snow geese. Maybe you could muddy things up for us just a bit more. (Or perhaps that query itself does.)

Darryl
There are a few notable exceptions, as I am sure you are aware... Give a flamingo enough shrimp and you get a brighter lawn ornament. Dark colored animals are uninclined to show such diet related variability... and it is a seasonal/annual thing subject to the diet during feather production.

Age also affects the color of some hair... but that usually relates to long-term mineral deficiencies (usually copper IIRC).
art

Klik'
Honky!
art

Those examples merely make my point. If you deprive a shrimp-fed, deeply coral-colored flamingo's offspring of shrimp -- they would be light colored. If you deprive the mother flamingo of shrimp, but feed it to her chicks -- they would be bright coral while she wouldn't be. But the initial feather color and the ability to change color with diet are both dependent upon genetic capability.

You and I are in violent agreement, my friend.

Dennis

I don't confuse anything here or spin things like you do. I don't try to put words in other peoples mouths. But I guess you enjoy talking to yourself thru other people.

Also as I already stated there is a gene that is known that gives the Kermode bear it's distinct coloring. This gene has not been found in other bears.

Case study of a Black Bear relocated. Local problem bear in Saco Maine. After several attemps at relocating this bear in state all had failed. They decided to relocate to I believe if I remember correctly to Idaho. Said bear was collard and released. After 4 years in Idaho bear coat is now a dark brown.

Now before you jump to conclusions or put words in my mouth, I am not saying that one thing soley changed this bears coloring. My guess would be a few things, diet could play a part, Sun/heat could play a part, stress from relocating could play a part. I am well aware that genes determine your given hair color just as it does in bears. However studies have shown color phase bears are not always born that color. Matter of fact some bears have shown to take upwards of three or more years to "color".

Well sure, but it isn't environment making the determination on whether a whitetail keeps the dappled coat it is born with....or the kid whose hair color changes as they age.....nor would I expect that it would matter with bears, since their colors aren't normally affected by external exposure to minerals as the necks of snow geese are.

I spent 4 years of my life studying Animal genetics. I feel relatively confident in saying that color is most definately gene related. Environment and diet certainly can effect color but genes dictate color.

color phases of bears can have several causes but I would hypothesize that its caused by dillution genes. I've not studied bears but considering that the vast majority of black bears are in fact..... black. I would say that its genetic. Now the occurance of "blonde" and "Cinamon" is relatively small I would say that its falls into the dillusion gene ratio. I have no documentation to back this up, it is simply my opinion.

Also, the changing color over time isn't all that uncommon. For example a Horse may take a year or two to "color in". I once had a black colt that turned into a blue roan after 18 months.

MCH
Without going back into your posts and pulling out your direct statements I am simply saying you have got it quite wrong. As several others have pointed out animals change as they age. Some contend brown and cinamon black bears are larger than black phase bears and glacier bears are quite a bit smaller. Has more to do with age-related size...

Kodiak bears go through a regular pattern of colors as they age and most often end up an indifferent brown. You made the direct statement that something other than genes determines bear color and tried to use unnamed ADF&G bios in support. That dog won't hunt.
art

A C&P from your website re: Glacier Phase.....bold is mine.

"While white is the rarest color phase, a very uncommon and particularly beautiful color phase of the black bear is the blue-gray or glacier bears of southeastern Alaska, northwestern British Columbia and the southwest Yukon. The undercoat of the glacier bears is a rich blue-black, while the outer guard hairs are long and white (or light yellow) with silver tips. This color variation probably evolved during the last ice age when populations were isolated along the unfrozen sections of the coastline, due to the biological process of genetic drift (random fluctuations in the genetic composition of a small population). The blue-gray color is ideal camouflage against the backdrop of frozen ice - the bears are nearly impossible to spot unless they are moving. Unfortunately, this color phase is on the decline. Immigration of non-glacier black bears and emigration of glacier bears across the now unfrozen landscape, are causing the gene frequency to be eliminated in the face of more dominant color phases, as the two mingle and mate.


Just for conversation....

Just a quick question...these two cubs, the difference in coloring is a product of the Environment not Genes? (Picture not mine)

9.3 but don't lose your ammo cause you probably won't find any in Alaska.

There's more 9.3x62 ammo in Alaska than .30-06AI...

I've always thought that "carry a rifle with ammo you can find easily" rubric was a pure chimera.

But hey, what do you think of the genetics of those two cubs ? Or was it something in momma's milk...?

Dennis

Yes, if you are being EXACT! There is FAR more 30/06 ammo, which will work just fine in an improved version but not so much in a 9.3x62.

Well yeah. That would be pretty cool...build a fancy rifle with a bored-out chamber to make a pretend-magnum, then go to Alaska and shoot green-box ammo in it...

You ever been separated from your ammo on a trip? Not to say it doesn't happen...just hear a lot more fear about it than actuality.

But I even bought two different bullet weights of 9.3x57 factory ammo in Anchorage.

Dennis

Nope, but I don't fly unless FORCED.

Art you love to put words into peoples mouths don't you? Unnamed ADF&G? Where did I state that? I believe I said I have a very good friend that is a Biologist/ Zoologist that has studied bears. He works for a University. Second color phase and and hair shading are two different things. Example your hair maybe brown now but at 70 it maybe gray or white. Like I have stated before color (Primary) is dictated by genes. Color phase has not been proven to genes and most all biologist believe that it is environmetally induced. I have given you where you can read that data. You have given me nothing. Adios

is red azz genetic or induced by the environment? (grin)

Chiggers can give you the red azz.

MCH
I did not find the reference to the ADF&G bio when I looked back through your posts. It confuses me greatly as I seldom make that type of error... and I wonder why you did not correct me when I used the point first. I have a rather distinct memory of how and what I thought you said. Was that one of your edits?

I'll cut to the chase; I am not putting words in your mouth as the words in your mouth are only making you look foolish. First you claim genes do not determine color and then you quote several fellows talking about which gene determines color. That was the point Brother Bill attempted to make to you. I suspect it cleared your brow by feet and kept sailing.

Your quotes do NOT say genes do not control color. They do say they did not find the genes in the expected places. That proves nothing about color determinants.

You say "most all biologists believe color phase is environmentally induced." I cannot find a single biologist that believes so. I know many and I know some working for ADF&G as bear biologists. Some are retired...

Your arguments are circular and ridiculous. "Genes do not determine color" to listing which gene causes color and back. Argumentation does not work that way. If color is not gene driven then your other arguments are false and vice versa.

To restate my position clearly: Bear hair color is 100% a function of genes. Those genes allow for a change in hair color "or phase" throughout a bear's life. Using terms like "shading" for color is splitting hairs and foolish.
art

Any and all editing was for mistyped or words spelled wrong as niether are a strong point of mine. I have never deleted anything from my post. I know your kind oh so well you are big and bad and think you know everything. You make personal attacks at people because you can not have a civilized conversation. I feel bad for you. You have not posted a single source I can read differently from the sources I did list. You can try to spin all you want to. As I am sure the only friends you have are on here because they don't have to deal with your ways in real life. Enough said on my part. I have better things to do with my time. In the end a Brown bear is a Brown bear no matter where he lives or the coloring of its coat. Adios

MCH you dont have to get pissy with Art, it just so happens that you are illequipedly (dont know if thats a word...grin) debating a topic with a guy that doesn't need to quote second hand knowledge but in fact has a great deal of first hand experience and knowledge with Alaska's bears. Theres a time to stop while your not ahead, and you are well past it!

MCH
You got that right! I bought a 40' boat in Kodiak just so I could have friends. No one could stand me otherwise. Especially fools, as I have very little patience for those refusing to think.
art

Cub
Aw shucks!
art

So can the squirts...

MCH don't get yer feathers ruffled.

this place is a wealth of info, what makes it particularly useful, is when it comes to things gunny or outdoorsy, there's many members that have mucho experience.

if you toss something out there, you pretty well have to be able to back it up for you will get called on it.

I think you're off base not recognizing that genes play the dominant factor in bear hair color.

but you were spot on in your assessment of Art, he's an azzhole, (moderate that oh fallen one.....grin) but like the one that came with your anatomy you grow fond of him anyways. He's some definite opinions but they are based upon experience (that's not discounting your experiences mind you)

btw Art, loved the Miss Bearol comment twas a classic, but probably made me happier than most guys....grin

but if you really want to get him fired up, start a thread on why synthetic stocks are so much more appealing than wood stocked rifles!

Dude...

I don't know you, so far as I know. I do, however, know Art, and call him my friend with some pride. You are way off base, and frankly way out of line, with your comments quoted above. I have had many an intellectual debate with Art, and have never heard the faintest harsh word from him, because I disagreed with him. One must have supportable data to argue science with him, but then one should always have supportable data to argue science with anyone. One must also exercise a certain intellectual rigor and produce internally consistent arguments -- or expect to have his head handed to him, politely, I might add.

Art is big, but he is not "bad" in any negative sense. I regret that I do not have more opportunities to spend time with him in person, because he is grand company. I have proven him "wrong" on a couple of occasions, and he has been appreciative of gaining new insights and information -- not at all like you suggest. He is also a generous and giving soul, and one worthy of emulation. Art needs no defense from any of us, but he's going to get it anyway. Because we know him, and you so clearly do not.

So, MCH, when you finished with "Enough said on my part.", you were about six posts long. It's a conclusion you should have reached much earlier.

Dennis

GSSP-

You're 30-06 Ackley loads sound a little fast your long barrel notwithstanding. I'm not denying you are getting those speeds in those rifles but just concerned about safety. It's been my understanding (no experience with that wildcat) that the '06 Ackley is one of the less effective ones in terms of vel increase over the standard '06. A 200-300 fps increase over the standard cartridge seems a lot.

That said, it sounds like any of those three loads ballistically would be very sufficient although the Nos Accubond wouldn't be my first choice for a big bear bullet.

Color is largely a genetic expression whether by dominant or recessive genes.

Gdv

How about this? In any given critter, genetics determine color. Over a great period of time (millenia), environment determines what color (genetic combination) is successful.

And I'd still take the rifle I was most comfortable with.

In the future, please try to avoid making things too simple here. We have bandwidth to use up before it goes stale...

Dennis

Sorry. You know it probably won't happen again.

Yea, as they said on SNL, "that's the ticket."

GSSP

I would suggest that you take your 9.3 x 62 with the 286 gr bullets.

Your guide is going to keep you from shooting unless you're in a good position to make a killing shot (if all goes well) from within the preferred 100 yards. The accuracy your getting with your load in that rifle is plenty for the size of game and distances that you will be shooting.
That heavy bullet moving at that velocity is going to give you good energy and great penetration.
Follow your guide/outfitter's advice, and I will bet that he will want your first shot to not only get into the vitals, but hit/break some major bone as well.
Practice lots from various field shooting positions. A set of shooting sticks may alos be a good option and practice regimen.

Good Luck, and enjoy your hunt!

Actually I put up with Art because of MT but the boat is a pretty good insensitive also --- All kidding aside I'm proud to call Art my friend. --- Mel

Randy
First beer is DEFINATELY on me! Want you to then explain drinking beer from an azzhole!
art

One day I am gonna hunt up there with my old Rem 721 30.06 and 220gr Win Silvertips which I have bought and reloaded a ton of. I also have some 180gr Silvertip factory ammo I been buyin boxes of every payday. Now I just gotta RETIRE. Good luck on your hunt. Let us see some fotos.

Goodnews,

I won't argue w/ anyone about my 30-06 Ackley being fast. I wanted it that way. I got it that way. But, you know what? I'm 1.3 gr under my max. I appreciate the concern. With the 200 Partition I use H1000. With the 180 BT/AB, I used "Reloader 25" to get me to 3100 fps if I want, but I get my best accuracy @ 2997 fps and that's 2 gr under my max. I'm upto 6-7 loadings on my Win cases and my primer pockets are still tight. I mic my case heads. I watch my chronograph. I pay attention to sticky bolt lift on a rifle I've been shooting since 1982. I know this rifle and what it tells me.

For the record, I'm taking both rifles and my SxS 12 bore Manton for Ptarmigan. The 9.3 will be up 1st since it "is" such a unique caliber with the Ackley in the bull pen.

But what do you think causes different bears to have different colored hair ?

Dennis

I think it's all the blue tape they've been eating... scattered all about the Alaskan landscape, blown off guy's muzzles when they shoot.

Yep. That's gotta be it.

Moron!
Blue tape is what causes glacier bears!
art looking to buy a friend

LMAO!


i've poured many a beer down an azzhole, (in fact I had a few at the cabin this past week)

but I've never drank beer from an azzhole to my knowledge????


oh wait a minute my buddy Croll has bought a few rounds, guess it's nada new for me.


you have a way with words my friend, that I truly enjoy, course having a 40 ft. boat don't hurt your cause either

Someday (when my ship comes in, har har) I'd like to have a 40-ft money pit boat.